Prototypical Edge Measurables

[BCJet]

Reading about Thibodeaux and Jermaine Johnson I was a bit surprised to see them both listed at only 255lbs.

Bryce Huff was an UDFA who had 18 sacks in college for Memphis.  His biggest issues per his college scouting report was size (6'3 255) and shorter arms at 31.75 inches.  This lack of size and length made him more of an 3-4 OLB prospect who could be a liability in the run game.

Kayvon Thibodeaux is 6'4 255 with 33 1/8 inch arms and JJ is 6'5 255 with 34 inch arms.  

Nick Bosa by comparison is 6'4  266lbs with 33 inch arms while Chase Young is 6'5 265 with 33 3/4 arms.  Both of these guys have more weight and strength at the point of attack then KP or JJ.

In trying to find a better comparison, I looked at the old Seattle defense that played with a Leo DE. Bruce Irvin thrived in that role at 6'3 245 lbs  33.38 inch arms.  

So basically my question is KP  if Huff was so undersized, why isnt more being made of both KP and JJ not exactly being perfectly sized as DEs?  Is it strictly arm length, which is obviously important but cant be the only reason someone like Huff was un-draftable vs these guys being top 5 picks?

Curious what others thought about this comparison?

[Larz]

As far as measurables go with rushers it’s the explosion stuff that is a decent predictor 

 

[hmhertz]

Huff didn't show speed or the ability to bend and that is

why he was a uDFA

[BCJet]

46 minutes ago, hmhertz said:

Huff didn't show speed or the ability to bend and that is

why he was a uDFA

This sentence is from his NFL.com scouting report:  "Huff is loose and agile with the ability to bend low and corner tightly at the top of the rush."

Seems like he had good quickness, that is really came down to his ability to set the edge.  I also think it could just be a random thing where Huff should have gotten a combine invite where he could have shown his athleticism and wound up being a middle round pick but who knows.

[RSJ]

Lawson and KT at defensive end at the same time and the Jets will rank 32 in run defense again.


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[Jetty]

KT benched 27 reps. I don’t think strength is a issue. 
 

Apparently bend and arm length are the best indicators of a good edge prospect.

[Fantasy Island]

Just from a gut feel, I wanted Mayo over VG.  Now I want Sauce over KT.

Don't make it hard fat a$$.

Pick Sauce at 4

WR, OT or Edge at 10.

No KT though please.

[jetstream23]

Jermaine Johnson is probably the best all around Edge guy for the Jets in this Draft outside of Hutchinson.  Plays both the pass and run really well, already has a set of established passrush moves, and seems like a JD/Saleh type guy.  One of the few criticisms I've seen is that he's a little older at 23.  I have no issue with that.  Either he's a good player or he isn't, I could care less if his 5th year option is when he's 28 years old.  The Jets would still have the opportunity to extend him or trade him prior to that.... but again, only if he's good, which he is.  THAT is the most important thing.

[nycdan]

7 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Jermaine Johnson is probably the best all around Edge guy for the Jets in this Draft outside of Hutchinson.  Plays both the pass and run really well, already has a set of established passrush moves, and seems like a JD/Saleh type guy.  One of the few criticisms I've seen is that he's a little older at 23.  I have no issue with that.  Either he's a good player or he isn't, I could care less if his 5th year option is when he's 28 years old.  The Jets would still have the opportunity to extend him or trade him prior to that.... but again, only if he's good, which is he is.  THAT is the most important thing.

Could not agree more.

Chandler Jones is 32 and still tearing up OTs everywhere.  I'm just not ranking a draft pick being 23 as a big negative when I'm really focused on him being good over the next few years.

[bitonti]

8 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Jermaine Johnson is probably the best all around Edge guy for the Jets in this Draft outside of Hutchinson.  Plays both the pass and run really well, already has a set of established passrush moves, and seems like a JD/Saleh type guy.  One of the few criticisms I've seen is that he's a little older at 23.  I have no issue with that.  Either he's a good player or he isn't, I could care less if his 5th year option is when he's 28 years old.  The Jets would still have the opportunity to extend him or trade him prior to that.... but again, only if he's good, which is he is.  THAT is the most important thing.

This is the Marcus maye situation again. He's a full contract behind his peers 

I like the player but his age is a prospect killer 

[GKnight83]

14 hours ago, BCJet said:

Reading about Thibodeaux and Jermaine Johnson I was a bit surprised to see them both listed at only 255lbs.

Bryce Huff was an UDFA who had 18 sacks in college for Memphis.  His biggest issues per his college scouting report was size (6'3 255) and shorter arms at 31.75 inches.  This lack of size and length made him more of an 3-4 OLB prospect who could be a liability in the run game.

Kayvon Thibodeaux is 6'4 255 with 33 1/8 inch arms and JJ is 6'5 255 with 34 inch arms.  

Nick Bosa by comparison is 6'4  266lbs with 33 inch arms while Chase Young is 6'5 265 with 33 3/4 arms.  Both of these guys have more weight and strength at the point of attack then KP or JJ.

In trying to find a better comparison, I looked at the old Seattle defense that played with a Leo DE. Bruce Irvin thrived in that role at 6'3 245 lbs  33.38 inch arms.  

So basically my question is KP  if Huff was so undersized, why isnt more being made of both KP and JJ not exactly being perfectly sized as DEs?  Is it strictly arm length, which is obviously important but cant be the only reason someone like Huff was un-draftable vs these guys being top 5 picks?

Curious what others thought about this comparison?

99 was also 6'5" and 266 lbs when he was taken in the 2nd round (Lyons was pick #1 that year). 

Not sure of his reach but also not sure whether 10 pounds is significant in this day and age.

[nycdan]

If we're talking measurables, I'd love to get a sense of why some of the same people who put Darron Lee on blast for being 'tiny' at 6'1" are fine with Nakobe Dean and his sub-6'0" stature?  

[Asymmetrical]

8 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Jermaine Johnson is probably the best all around Edge guy for the Jets in this Draft outside of Hutchinson.  Plays both the pass and run really well, already has a set of established passrush moves, and seems like a JD/Saleh type guy.  One of the few criticisms I've seen is that he's a little older at 23.  I have no issue with that.  Either he's a good player or he isn't, I could care less if his 5th year option is when he's 28 years old.  The Jets would still have the opportunity to extend him or trade him prior to that.... but again, only if he's good, which is he is.  THAT is the most important thing.

 

It's not the contract that's the issue - late breakout age is a negative because you have a 23 year old with a few years of major program strength training etc beating up on 20 year olds who are not as physically mature. It isn't disqualifying as far as I can tell but definitely goes into the minus column. 

[HighPitch]

guys are debating the differences 10 lbs and 1 inch longer arms make wtf

[jetstream23]

18 minutes ago, Asymmetrical said:

 

It's not the contract that's the issue - late breakout age is a negative because you have a 23 year old with a few years of major program strength training etc beating up on 20 year olds who are not as physically mature. It isn't disqualifying as far as I can tell but definitely goes into the minus column. 

Fair point.

 

[Barkus]

1 hour ago, Asymmetrical said:

 

It's not the contract that's the issue - late breakout age is a negative because you have a 23 year old with a few years of major program strength training etc beating up on 20 year olds who are not as physically mature. It isn't disqualifying as far as I can tell but definitely goes into the minus column. 

Agree with the point. On Daniel Jeremiah podcast JJ was 4th in pass rush win rate at 15%. Here is pass rush win  rate for other edge guys he mentioned

hutchinson 25.7%
karlaftis 25.3%
thibs 19%
JJ 15%
Trevon walker 10%

[Asymmetrical]

Just now, Barkus said:

Agree with the point. On Daniel Jeremiah podcast JJ was 4th in pass rush win rate at 15%. Here is pass rush win  rate for other edge guys he mentioned

hutchinson 25.7%
karlaftis 25.3%
thibs 19%
JJ 15%
Trevon walker 10%

 

yeah also scary. his sacks seem to have been mostly of the coverage variety which is like.. Jordan Jenkins redux lol

[section314]

9 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

Jermaine Johnson is probably the best all around Edge guy for the Jets in this Draft outside of Hutchinson.  Plays both the pass and run really well, already has a set of established passrush moves, and seems like a JD/Saleh type guy.  One of the few criticisms I've seen is that he's a little older at 23.  I have no issue with that.  Either he's a good player or he isn't, I could care less if his 5th year option is when he's 28 years old.  The Jets would still have the opportunity to extend him or trade him prior to that.... but again, only if he's good, which he is.  THAT is the most important thing.

FWIW....so does Nick Bosa? And Robert had some pretty nice success with him.

[section314]

5 minutes ago, Barkus said:

Agree with the point. On Daniel Jeremiah podcast JJ was 4th in pass rush win rate at 15%. Here is pass rush win  rate for other edge guys he mentioned

hutchinson 25.7%
karlaftis 25.3%
thibs 19%
JJ 15%
Trevon walker 10%

Check out Nik Bonitto's win rate.....believe it is the same as Hutch's.

[BCJet]

11 hours ago, nycdan said:

If we're talking measurables, I'd love to get a sense of why some of the same people who put Darron Lee on blast for being 'tiny' at 6'1" are fine with Nakobe Dean and his sub-6'0" stature?  

I dont think it was ever Lee's size that was the issue, it was his complete lack of awareness on the field.  Dean has elite instincts that make him a lot more desirable then Lee.

Im personally fine with Thibs measurements, I was just surprised at his weight