Max Mitchell was a STEAL for the New York Jets! | Film Review by The Aussie

[jetstream23]

5 hours ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Hey man, the upcoming Draft is now in 2023.

Time to START mocking OT to the Jets in Round 1.  

 

[jetstream23]

42 minutes ago, Waka Flocka Flacco said:

This cohesion score stuff sounds like words pretending to be numbers. Don't be that guy.

Agree with this BUT consistency and cohesion in the wide/outside zone blocking scheme that the Jets run is more important than any other scheme.  The good news is that most of the guys who will be playing in it now have one year of experience in the system.  And, the addition Laken Tomlinson, knows it pretty damn well from his SF days.  Juggling the positions around isn't ideal but at least they'll have a Summer to get it down.

Just for giggles, here is the expected starting OL as of now with guys highlighted in red who did not start in their spot last year (or the majority of last year).

LT - Fant

LG - Tomlinson

C - McGovern

RG - AVT

RT - Becton

 

So, there are some changes afoot.

[nycdan]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

You keep bringing it up in post after post as though the Jets just turned AVT into a one-legged RG.

And if these are your grades they're terrible. My guess is they're fueled by your false premise that one all pro erases a lousy starter elsewhere on the line, which isn't the case.

Take KC:

• The Chiefs have two objectively below-average pass blockers out of 5 on their line, both playing next to each other on the right side.
• That's aside from a third lineman - Brown - is among the most overrated pass blocking LTs in football.
• That's 3 of 5 of their linemen let up tons of pressure & hits (sacks & non-sack hits), and you grade their pass blocking to be an A. By what metric are they an A pass-blocking line 5-across? Mahomes is an A++ QB, but that's not because of his OL. 3 of the 5 positions let up pressure all year long, and the other 2 didn't stop that from happening.

I'm sure the rest of the list, if I cared to dissect it, would be seriously flawed in similar fashion. 

Same with Green Bay.  Their line looks so much better than it is because Aaron Rodgers.

They have massive injury questions, older players on the decline....all sorts of issues.  But they have a QB behind them who can get rid of the ball fast and accurately.  Honestly, I'd say putting them in the middle of the league would be slightly generous.  That line would get many other QBs killed.

[Alka]

7 hours ago, bitonti said:

That's why it's been 20 years in between Jason Fabini's

Jason Fabini was an average player.  Still, great that he was a starter for 8 years, but still average.  If the guy we took was another Jason Fabini, I would be happy.  Anything better than that, I will be elated.

[Awesumtenor]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:21 PM, Alka said:

I went to the diner in Smyrna 3 days ago.  It is in Delaware or Maryland, I forget.   I looked up the town in Google, and it's not really a nice town.  The diner was basic diner food; nothing special, but not bad either.

It’s in Delaware on US 13 north of Dover…

[UnknownJetFan]

9 hours ago, bitonti said:

The last 4th Rd lineman the Jets picked was Cam Clark in 2020. 

The dude instant retired 

The 4th round has like a ten percent hit rate if we're being real. 

That's why it's been 20 years in between Jason Fabini's

I like max Mitchell as a backup and development guy but grading them all out. the Jets' line is about 22nd currently. 

The guards are above average, maybe even good, if AVT switches without issue. Fant and McGovern are about average, Becton is a ??? 

Could they be good? Sure. Could they be bad? Yup. What are they right now? Hopefully good enough. They are not even close to the top tier (Philly, KC, LAC, Tampa Bay, CLE, gb, DAL) 

It's a meh group and max Mitchell is a meh prospect. They also could be replacing 2 more starters next year. 

 

Fant was a top 5 Tackle last year and one of the best LTs. How is that average?. Also, our Guards have a chance to be the best if not one of the best duos in the league.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, nycdan said:

Same with Green Bay.  Their line looks so much better than it is because Aaron Rodgers.

They have massive injury questions, older players on the decline....all sorts of issues.  But they have a QB behind them who can get rid of the ball fast and accurately.  Honestly, I'd say putting them in the middle of the league would be slightly generous.  That line would get many other QBs killed.

Also Seattle replaced both of their starting tackles from last year. At least one of those newcomers is a rookie, at LT, and maybe at RT, too, unless he can’t beat out Shell’s backup. Resulting “Cohesion score” is 4.8 out of 5 lol. Really.

Plus Seattle’s got stiffs Damien Lewis, Austin Blythe, and Gabe Jackson between those 2 new tackles.

His Seahawks rank? Better than the Jets’ OL, even though it’s highly likely they’re worse at a minimum of 4 of 5 starter spots, lmao.

[jNYC1]

QBs who hold on to the ball or don’t throw it away when play is done make offensive lines look worse then they are…  

Zach continuing to master the short passing game will be a boost to the pass blocking success of our line - which looks solid on paper.

I think we’ll have at least 1 pro bowl lineman in 2022 (and it might not be Laken T - who made it last year)

Brady would make our line look like we have 5 Pro Bowlers…  He was so maddeningly good at getting rid of the ball quickly or throwing it away to avoid hits/sacks.  Rodgers is also really good at it.

[Alka]

11 hours ago, UnknownJetFan said:

Fant was a top 5 Tackle last year and one of the best LTs. How is that average?. Also, our Guards have a chance to be the best if not one of the best duos in the league.

Yes, I agree with you.  I think what fans are discounting is that when Fant was a right tackle, he was either average or below average.  When he switched to left tackle last year, his play continued to get better, to where by the end of the year, he was playing at a level better than average at a minimum. 

As far as our left and right guards, they both have the opportunity to be pro-bowl players this year, or at least in the conversation. 

And for Becton, I think it all comes down to his health.  If he is healthy, he will do well.  

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, jNYC1 said:

QBs who hold on to the ball or don’t throw it away when play is done make offensive lines look worse then they are…  

Zach continuing to master the short passing game will be a boost to the pass blocking success of our line - which looks solid on paper.

I think we’ll have at least 1 pro bowl lineman in 2022 (and it might not be Laken T - who made it last year)

Brady would make our line look like we have 5 Pro Bowlers…  He was so maddeningly good at getting rid of the ball quickly or throwing it away to avoid hits/sacks.  Rodgers is also really good at it.

All of this, yes.

Check the sack percentage for Wilson. Then check the sack percentages for the three backups getting rid of it faster. Granted the sample sizes are smaller, but it’s hard to not see that Wilson’s sack rate was more than double and among his 44 sacks on the season, these two late games not sticking out:

8 sacks in the final game, with 4 of 5 starting linemen who’d be backups this season, also missing its top 4 / starting WRs and its top TE (such as he was).

6 sacks in the late Miami game (aka the other stellar LT start from the team’s OT4 McDermott), also with just 1 starting WR (Crowder) and - since the team had none to begin with - no actual starting TE either to offset that. What was he supposed to do, throw it to a heavily-covered Crowder 35 times?

Then his early games, which were also early games for the new OL blocking and offense in general, complete with Wilson holding the ball and maddeningly dropping backwards out of the pocket so the linemen, with their backs to him, don’t know where he is & therefore where to correctly push.

The likelihood of all that repeating is small, whether Wilson takes a big leap forward or not.

[Sperm Edwards]

15 hours ago, T0mShane said:

If Burrow has a half a second more time on the last play of the Super Bowl, Joe Burrow very likely completes an easy TD to JaMarr Chase, who had cooked The World’s Best CB down the right sideline. Ramsey was worthless that entire offseason, and these guys are way overrating the value of CBs in today’s game. 

The obvious move, to many here as I recall, was to bypass Chase entirely because the smarter move was to draft Sewell instead and park him at RT. There’d also be no TD to Chase since there’d be no SB appearance in the first place if they’d taken that terrible “build the trenches first” advice.

No doubt their OL sucked, particularly when they were down to their 2nd string RT in the playoffs, plus didn’t Uzomah get knocked out of the Super Bowl like right away? These weren’t insignificant losses to then face the Rams’ DL. Also pick another day and maybe that game goes the other way; like losing to the Jets.

That last part is my attempt at underhanding a slow-pitch softball of an olive branch so you can do more of your Mike White fetish. Enjoy .

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The obvious move, to many here as I recall, was to bypass Chase entirely because the smarter move was to draft Sewell instead and park him at RT. There’d also be no TD to Chase since there’d be no SB appearance in the first place if they’d taken that terrible “build the trenches first” advice.

No doubt their OL sucked, particularly when they were down to their 2nd string RT in the playoffs, plus didn’t Uzomah get knocked out of the Super Bowl like right away? These weren’t insignificant losses to then face the Rams’ DL. Also pick another day and maybe that game goes the other way; like losing to the Jets.

That last part is my attempt at underhanding a slow-pitch softball of an olive branch so you can do more of your Mike White fetish. Enjoy .

The bengals probably didn’t think they were going to be this good this soon, and that’s why they didn’t overinvest in the OL.  Burrow was returning from a major injury and while they thought they’d be competitive, nobody thought they were super bowl bound.

douglas did the right thing in this draft.  He got as much talent as he could, addressed both sides of the ball, got 4 legit starters barring something strange, and added good depth and developmental prospects.  

Odds are the jets won’t compete for a playoff spot this year but stranger things have happened.  If the worst thing this season is that becton flakes out, they sign a tackle or two to get thru the year and they use mitchell at RT at times, then this season has been a success.  They have all their picks in next year’s draft, and another FA season, to address LT if necessary.  Assuming these picks from this year and last year are legit they have far fewer needs heading into next offseason, so addressing tackle should be much easier.  

[bitonti]

16 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

And if these are your grades they're terrible. 

That's great. Please share your grades then 

If my rants had a point it's that you can't predict the Jets to be a top 10 or top 20 line without looking at every other line. You and the other "the line is fine" folks lack context. 

Just like we can't predict 12 wins without looking at the schedule. 

Maybe my grades are terrible but great lines know their starting lineup. The jets' line has uncertainty and that holds back their overall grade 

Fwiw if the avt swap goes well laken settles in and they determine who is playing each tackle spot, their cohesion can get them as high as 17th. If a few lines get hurt and they stay healthy they can rise higher than that 

Saying they're a top 10 line or a whatever is optimistic like saying theyre going to win 12. It's possible but out of all the outcomes it's an outlier 

 

[Tranquilo]

16 hours ago, T0mShane said:

If Burrow has a half a second more time on the last play of the Super Bowl, Joe Burrow very likely completes an easy TD to JaMarr Chase, who had cooked The World’s Best CB down the right sideline. Ramsey was worthless that entire offseason, and these guys are way overrating the value of CBs in today’s game. 

How many chances did the Bengals have all game? That wasn't the only play in the game, and JaMarr Chase had more than one opportunity the entire game.

O-line is important. DBs are important. 

[bitonti]

54 minutes ago, Alka said:

Yes, I agree with you.  I think what fans are discounting is that when Fant was a right tackle, he was either average or below average.  When he switched to left tackle last year, his play continued to get better, to where by the end of the year, he was playing at a level better than average at a minimum. 

As far as our left and right guards, they both have the opportunity to be pro-bowl players this year, or at least in the conversation. 

And for Becton, I think it all comes down to his health.  If he is healthy, he will do well.  

OK so who is the right tackle? Honest question? Is it Fant? Is it Becton? Is it an FA that is not signed yet? That's uncertainty and lines without it rank higher 

Side note George Fant was not a top 5 tackle. He was a top pass blocking grade but below average run blocking means he ranked around 30th out of the 64 starters 

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

That's great. Please share your grades then 

If my rants had a point it's that you can't predict the Jets to be a top 10 or top 20 line without looking at every other line. You and the other "the line is fine" folks lack context. 

Just like we can't predict 12 wins without looking at the schedule. 

Maybe my grades are terrible but great lines know their starting lineup. The jets' line has uncertainty and that holds back their overall grade 

Fwiw if the avt swap goes well laken settles in and they determine who is playing each tackle spot, their cohesion can get them as high as 17th. If a few lines get hurt and they stay healthy they can rise higher than that 

Saying they're a top 10 line or a whatever is optimistic like saying theyre going to win 12. It's possible but out of all the outcomes it's an outlier 

 

I wasn't the one rating them as anything; merely responding to your blanket assessment that they're a non-top 20 line. The first 2 of 2 teams I looked at, matching your grades up, to me were preposterous.

Those scores took into account a highly suspect and subjective grading (e.g. "continuity score") and treated it as though it was some objective measurement that is then scientifically calculated provably correct as 25% of an overall grade, like this is all objectively based in math. It's nothing of the sort. 

Further, I think there's a lot of team passing & rushing results - successful and unsuccessful - credited exclusively to the 5 guys on the line without factoring in injuries, blocking from non-OL players, ability of multiple team targets to get open (and get open quickly), QB decisiveness, as well as RB decisiveness, speed, and tackle-breaking. It's like no thought or weight is given to the obvious effects of some QBs getting rid of the ball in 2.3-2.4 seconds in comparison to a then-rookie QB who'd take upwards of a full second more as an average time to throw, on top of visibly poor blocking from the backs & TEs, itself on top of installing new offenses or blocking or even suspect & predictable play-calling, as though both lines compared were tasked with equal-difficulty jobs. It's so ridiculous it shouldn't need saying. 

Why do I doubt these are even loosely decent grades? Years of posting history: I think you see high draft picks and/or contract dollars and rate a player (or a player group, like OL) predominantly on that, with an unearned and disproportionate benefit of the doubt, in some cases even in the face of objective failures.

Further, these player & position swaps on the OL are all over the place, where it looks like you've gone out of your way to skew results so the Jets show up lower by making the lock fit the key. For you to weigh "continuity score" so heavily, and then give a team potentially starting 2 rookie tackles (a late 1st rounder plus a 3rd rounder) a score of 4.8 shows heavy, heavy bias and intent to make some look good & others - the Jets in particular - look bad. To keep harping on as many times as you have on a LG moving to RG, you'd think we were converting him from NT to CB (and even admit you'd have ludicrously graded such a position change equally).

People can have differing opinions, and honestly I don't have a dog in this race other than my own opinion that this line is good enough to get to and win a SB, and that adding unique skill-position players at the top of the draft, particularly when there's a need this team has, trumps OL depth at non-LT positions. If the Jets don't get to the SB (or even the playoffs) it won't be because of the OL, seeing how it's already decidedly better than the one Cin nearly won a SB with just a few months ago.

I'll give you props for putting your ranks out there, but it'd be generous to say these grades look largely arbitrary, and too many things are in there that show an interest in the resulting order.

[TuscanyTile2]

22 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Jets haven't even been to a Super Bowl in over 5 decades and you're going to dismiss a Bengals team that got there?  GTFOH.  

I think we all try to figure out a formula but there really isn't one.  KC got to a SB with a injured OL but they have an all-time great QB.

Fwiw, the Jets got to 2 straight AFC CGs in no small part due to the strength of their OL.

 

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I wasn't the one rating them as anything; merely responding to your blanket assessment that they're a non-top 20 line. The first 2 of 2 teams I looked at, matching your grades up, to me were preposterous.

Those scores took into account a highly suspect and subjective grading (e.g. "continuity score") and treated it as though it was some objective measurement that is then scientifically calculated provably correct as 25% of an overall grade, like this is all objectively based in math. It's nothing of the sort. 

Further, I think there's a lot of team passing & rushing results - successful and unsuccessful - credited exclusively to the 5 guys on the line without factoring in injuries, blocking from non-OL players, ability of multiple team targets to get open (and get open quickly), QB decisiveness, as well as RB decisiveness, speed, and tackle-breaking. It's like no thought or weight is given to the obvious effects of some QBs getting rid of the ball in 2.3-2.4 seconds in comparison to a then-rookie QB who'd take upwards of a full second more as an average time to throw, on top of visibly poor blocking from the backs & TEs, itself on top of installing new offenses or blocking or even suspect & predictable play-calling, as though both lines compared were tasked with equal-difficulty jobs. It's so ridiculous it shouldn't need saying. 

Why do I doubt these are even loosely decent grades? Years of posting history: I think you see high draft picks and/or contract dollars and rate a player (or a player group, like OL) predominantly on that, with an unearned and disproportionate benefit of the doubt, in some cases even in the face of objective failures.

Further, these player & position swaps on the OL are all over the place, where it looks like you've gone out of your way to skew results so the Jets show up lower by making the lock fit the key. For you to weigh "continuity score" so heavily, and then give a team potentially starting 2 rookie tackles (a late 1st rounder plus a 3rd rounder) a score of 4.8 shows heavy, heavy bias and intent to make some look good & others - the Jets in particular - look bad. 

Just FYI the individual grades are based on the player resume more than the team success. All pros are A plus, pro bowl starters are A, reserves are A-, former all pro, former pro bowl all the way down to C grades who are backups that should not see the field like gvr. These are not arbitrary. The grades and swap penalties are uniform throughout the league. KC, phi and LAC are highly ranked because they have premium talent. You may not believe this but Orlando brown Jr is a first team all pro and deservedly so. Slater deserves an A plus too

I do make judgment calls between the B players and the C+ guys. I even make allowances for pro bowl snubs, players like Andrew Whitworth most of his career 

Honest question who are the Jets' premium talent? Do they have former pro bowlers or current snubs? Laken tomlinson made it last year as an alternate. Not really elite is the answer to all of these questions 

They have good not great talent. They have 1, potentially two swaps (Becton to rt?) and a new starter in laken 

Their best lineman is avt (all rookie) and he's moving spots. That's not really how a team gets a top 10 grade 

Cleveland has Wills (B), bitonio (A+) nick Harris (c+ with 1.5 cohesion), Wyatt teller (A) and Jack Conklin (B+) 

The two all pros at guard and the former all pro at rt drive their grade. The jets line has no awards and that hurts their individual grades. We can say awards are bs and fair enough but one thing we can't say is that I'm making up grades on a whim 

 

[Scoop24]

17 hours ago, UnknownJetFan said:

Fant was a top 5 Tackle last year and one of the best LTs. How is that average?. Also, our Guards have a chance to be the best if not one of the best duos in the league.

No he was not . 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

The bengals probably didn’t think they were going to be this good this soon, and that’s why they didn’t overinvest in the OL.  Burrow was returning from a major injury and while they thought they’d be competitive, nobody thought they were super bowl bound.

douglas did the right thing in this draft.  He got as much talent as he could, addressed both sides of the ball, got 4 legit starters barring something strange, and added good depth and developmental prospects.  

Odds are the jets won’t compete for a playoff spot this year but stranger things have happened.  If the worst thing this season is that becton flakes out, they sign a tackle or two to get thru the year and they use mitchell at RT at times, then this season has been a success.  They have all their picks in next year’s draft, and another FA season, to address LT if necessary.  Assuming these picks from this year and last year are legit they have far fewer needs heading into next offseason, so addressing tackle should be much easier.  

They didn't grab an OLman there because they were facing the choice of a game-changer vs. a non-game-changer. Sewell looks like he'll have an excellent career - maybe even a great one - but the difference between a really good RT and a merely-ok RT isn't what makes a team a champion (or very nearly a champion, in the Bengals' case).

Would Cin have still lost the game if they'd hadn't had to play the game with their starters instead of a 4th stringer at RG, 2nd string RT, and #2 TE? Maybe, maybe not, but collectively that's nothing to sneeze at in the super bowl against a dominant pass rush. 

It's like no one knows they were playing with this many backups (and in one case, the backup's backup, who first saw the field after the trade deadline, then straight through to the super bowl). They also didn't choose not to invest high picks in the OL so much as they chose at least one of them poorly (when we took Darnold, they drafted a center in round 1 at #21, and he was a total bust).

[Sperm Edwards]

28 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Just FYI the individual grades are based on the player resume more than the team success. All pros are A plus, pro bowl starters are A, reserves are A-, former all pro, former pro bowl all the way down to C grades who are backups that should not see the field like gvr. These are not arbitrary. The grades and swap penalties are uniform throughout the league. KC, phi and LAC are highly ranked because they have premium talent. You may not believe this but Orlando brown Jr is a first team all pro and deservedly so 

I do make judgment calls between the B players and the C+ guys. I think even make allowances for pro bowl snubs, players like Andrew Whitworth most of his career 

Honest question who is the Jets premium talent? Do they have even any former pro bowlers or current snubs? Not really is the answer to all of these questions 

They have good not great talent. They have 1, potentially two swaps (Becton to rt?) and a new starter in laken 

Their best lineman is avt (all rookie) and he's moving spots. That's not really how a team gets a top 10 grade 

Cleveland has Wills (B), bitonio (A+) nick Harris (c+ with 1.5 cohesion), Wyatt teller (A) and Jack Conklin (B+) 

The two all pros at guard and the former all pro at rt drive their grade. The jets line has no awards and that hurts their individual grades. We can say awards are bs and fair enough but one thing we can't say is that I'm making up grades on a whim 

So let's look at individual grades, then.

KC brings back (#s don't include the playoffs):

• a LT who gave up 4 sacks, 12 qb hits, 20 hurries, and 36 pressures
• a RG who gave up 4 sacks, 8 qb hits, 37 hurries, and 49 pressures
• a RT trio who gave up 7 sacks, 5 qb hits, 48 hurries, and 60 pressures

These numbers suck and this is 3/5 of their OL, yet you awarded this line a pass blocking grade of A+

That's just one example of the type of judgment that infects the whole list as suspect. I don't need to dig into 30 more of them in this detail.

The problem, which you highlight in your last sentence, is that two stellar position performers do not erase 3 other positions that were between mediocre and worse. Maybe in a position group like WR they could, but definitely not on the OL. 

[bitonti]

43 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So let's look at individual grades, then.

KC brings back (#s don't include the playoffs):

• a LT who gave up 4 sacks, 12 qb hits, 20 hurries, and 36 pressures
• a RG who gave up 4 sacks, 8 qb hits, 37 hurries, and 49 pressures
• a RT trio who gave up 7 sacks, 5 qb hits, 48 hurries, and 60 pressures

These numbers suck and this is 3/5 of their OL, yet you awarded this line a pass blocking grade of A+

That's just one example of the type of judgment that infects the whole list as suspect. I don't need to dig into 30 more of them in this detail.

The problem, which you highlight in your last sentence, is that two stellar position performers do not erase 3 other positions that were between mediocre and worse. Maybe in a position group like WR they could, but definitely not on the OL. 

 

These numbers you throw around for KC only make sense in context of other numbers. Like the 9 sacks Zach Wilson took against Buffalo week 18. 

Fact is, I don't factor in sack results at all. because of the wild nature of what can cause a sack or who is to blame for a sack, or if there's even any functional difference between pressures vs hits vs sacks. 

I also don't factor in rushing totals, but when an individual is mauling, they might get an in-season upgrade to their individual grade. AVT got an upgrade last year when it was apparent he was playing better many other rookies. 

by the way I do see your point that basing the grades off public awards like All-pro (writers) and Pro Bowl (1/3 coaches, 1/3 players, 1/3 fans) puts an element of "team success" into the grades. The Jets are not going to have any A+ players because they won 4 games last year. 

I think that's fair, though. Wins are really the only stat that's beyond reproach, and wins drive these offseason awards. Joe Thomas managed to make Pro Bowl a million times from a bad team, that's what an A+ player can do. The Jets simply don't have that top end talent right now. They have good or decent guys and an uncertain lineup. Next year they could be replacing 2 more starters, a tackle and a center. Max Mitchell is an option at tackle. There are no McGovern replacements in the queue. 

Your logic is sound until the bolded area. If we choose not to look at any other team than the Jets, yes the Jets line is improving and better than last year. Without context of the other 31 lines, these judgments are useless. The Jets could be awesome if all their question marks turn into exclamation points. They could be terrible if everyone gets hurt again. My rankings update for injury weekly. But it's always better to carry the same lineup for as long as possible. Subbing in players like Dan Feeney doesn't just hurt the individual grade it hurts the cohesion grade (until Dan Feeney plays enough to be considered a starter, usually 4 games consecutively)

The Jets could be great. They could be terrible. But the real question is where are they now, relative to other teams?

if you refuse to look at other teams, tunnel vision sets in  

 

 

[Sperm Edwards]

53 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 

These numbers you throw around for KC only make sense in context of other numbers. Like the 9 sacks Zach Wilson took against Buffalo week 18. 

Fact is, I don't factor in sack results at all. because of the wild nature of what can cause a sack or who is to blame for a sack, or if there's even any functional difference between pressures vs hits vs sacks. 

I also don't factor in rushing totals, but when an individual is mauling, they might get an in-season upgrade to their individual grade. AVT got an upgrade last year when it was apparent he was playing better many other rookies. 

by the way I do see your point that basing the grades off public awards like All-pro (writers) and Pro Bowl (1/3 coaches, 1/3 players, 1/3 fans) puts an element of "team success" into the grades. The Jets are not going to have any A+ players because they won 4 games last year. 

I think that's fair, though. Wins are really the only stat that's beyond reproach, and wins drive these offseason awards. Joe Thomas managed to make Pro Bowl a million times from a bad team, that's what an A+ player can do. The Jets simply don't have that top end talent right now. They have good or decent guys and an uncertain lineup. Next year they could be replacing 2 more starters, a tackle and a center. Max Mitchell is an option at tackle. There are no McGovern replacements in the queue. 

Your logic is sound until the bolded area. If we choose not to look at any other team than the Jets, yes the Jets line is improving and better than last year. Without context of the other 31 lines, these judgments are useless. The Jets could be awesome if all their question marks turn into exclamation points. They could be terrible if everyone gets hurt again. My rankings update for injury weekly. But it's always better to carry the same lineup for as long as possible. Subbing in players like Dan Feeney doesn't just hurt the individual grade it hurts the cohesion grade (until Dan Feeney plays enough to be considered a starter, usually 4 games consecutively)

The Jets could be great. They could be terrible. But the real question is where are they now, relative to other teams?

if you refuse to look at other teams, tunnel vision sets in  

 

 

The cohesion grade is an arbitrary number being given arbitrary weight in your "formula" for starters.

To then further say it doesn't matter which positions a player's moving - including something so slight and routine, like LG to RG - and give it the same cohesion score penalty as if he was moving from NT to WR, gives this score's value just about zero value. 

They aren't a bottom-tier OL. Are not, not 'they have the potential to be more than a bottom-tier OL' -- they are not now a bottom tier OL. A team returning with crappy blockers isn't magically better simply because their so-called "cohesion score" is higher. I couldn't gaf what an alky sportswriter uses, as though they're objective experts on offensive lines and every player on every line. Manish Mehta is/was one of their clan; I'd value more than half the clowns here more than his.

And not factoring in sack totals at all is not giving any more confidence in your rankings. Quite the contrary.

But again, I give you credit for putting this out there, even though I doubt I'd agree with the ratings given on upwards of 80% of the players other than the objectively great and objectively horrid. I'd have no qualms putting my own assessments out there myself but I'm not taking the time to do it for every lineman on every team, even if it was purely looking up their sack/hit/pressure type numbers, not even counting film that'd take 100x longer.

[TuscanyTile2]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:51 PM, slats said:

This is a difficult topic to discuss with you because you’re one of the loudest choir members in the First Church of the Holy Offensive Line. You believe a super group on the OL actually means something. Meanwhile, the Jets already have a better OL than the one that represented the AFC in the Super Bowl this year. 

Fant and McGovern are solid as long as there isn’t crap next to them, and there won’t be this year. They have two first round picks and just added a pro bowl caliber guard in free agency who knew their system before he looked at their playbook. 

Every team, even the great ones, fill out their OL with later picks. The Eagles LT was a 7th round pick, their center a sixth round pick. KC beefed up their OL after filling out their skill players, and still have a sixth round pick at guard. LAC, a street free agent at RT. Tampa, a waiver pickup at guard. CLE, a fifth round center. GB, two fourth round picks and a sixth. DAL (poster child of the OL worshippers, and a team who’s had less playoff success than the Jets over the last quarter century) is the only one that has three first round picks on their OL, and it’s gotten them exactly nowhere. 
 
People can talk until they’re blue in the face about games being won and lost in the trenches -and of course they’re still important- but that kinda thinking is as passé as defense wins championships. It’s star caliber players in premium positions that win games and championships. 

How about a roundtable discussion between the 3 of you (Slats, Sperm, Bitonti) discussing topics such as these ("First Church of the Holy Offensive Line") on JN radio?

[Waka Flocka Flacco]

48 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

How about a roundtable discussion between the 3 of you (Slats, Sperm, Bitonti) discussing topics such as these ("First Church of the Holy Offensive Line") on JN radio?

Somebody says Jets OL is fine. bitonti says compared to what. Then it devolves into nonsense for want of a good answer. Which I guess is better in podcast form than thread but it's still not great. bitonti's got a voice made for rambling, dubiously punctuated print.