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As we move into the next phase of the offseason, I have 2 question marks that still gnaw at me.


Alka
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15 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

The biggest question I have is with Quinnen Williams.  Unless they plan to extend this guy and pay him $18-20m a year, they should have addressed finding his replacement in this draft.  Q's maximum trade value would be on his rookie deal similar to Leonard Williams.

He played well before hurting his shoulder around the 12th game.  On the heels of a strong sophomore campaign.  His run defense, as with everyone else’s, did suffer however due to the scheme change.

He seems to be in that void between very good player and elite player.  The jury is still out on him due to his immense potential / flashes of greatness  on 1 side Vs. injury hiccups / bouts of mediocre play on the other.

The Jets will have a better sense what he is and what he’s worth after this year.  Still have him for 2 more but if there are question marks after 2022, they can trade him and draft or sign his replacement in FA.  

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I remember Jets getting Pete Kendall when he was cut.  A versatile G-C who started for 3 years.  UDFA Mike DeVito was a solid run stopper DL in those years Jets went to an AFCCG.  Another UDFA...Damon Harrison...IMO...was the best run stuffer on a Jets team that had Mo Wilkerson and Sheldon Richardson. 

Getting solid contributors before the start of season...can be done.  JD-Saleh may have capable targets in mind that they can still add to this roster.  Especially by UDFA and waiver cuts. 

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Run defense is a concern.

Depth on the oline is a concern. I'm terrified by the thought of van roten, feeney, mcdermott, or edoga being the primary backups and getting any snaps. 

I think we need 1 more above average starter at tackle or guard. I'm hoping AVT is being cross trained to fill in at RT in a pinch which would give them flexibility to either pick up interior OL or T, whichever opportunity presents itself.

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1 hour ago, Alka said:

Yes, the Jets had a great draft.  Let's get that out of the way.  Still, the Jets had the worst defense against the run last season, and I don't see how the Jets significantly addressed that thus far in the offseason.  In fact, we lost our best run defender in Fatukasi, and did nothing to replace him.  Yes, Sauce and the 2 back end backs that we got in free agency will help a little, but we didn't pick up a d tackle, and we picked up a total of zero linebackers to combat the front lines of the running attack.  This alone will assure that the Jets will still be a team in need.

My second question mark is of course Zach Wilson.  Will he take a step forward?  For me, if he is just average, the Jets will take a leap forward this year.  I think 8 or 9 wins is possible if he plays well, and 6 or 7 wins if he plays no better than he did last year.

Let't face it, the Jets are still not a playoff team, but if Zack takes a step up, the Jets will be playing significant football games going into December. 

I am guessing the Joe will monitor the players getting cut this month and next  before mandatory mini camp. Teams will likely trim their roster, that is how the Jets acquired Morgan Moses. They also picked up Solomon Thomas. A healthy Lawson and and Johnson II, they should be much improved. Plus they got Whitehead.

After what I saw from Zach last year after he came back, I think he is well on his way to make the next step. They improved the interior OL, Becton should be healthy, a new 3 down back and the have 4 new receivers/TEs. Overall this is a better team, floor is a 7 win team. It's up to Robert and his merry men to improve upon that.

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2 hours ago, Alka said:

Yes, the Jets had a great draft.  Let's get that out of the way.  Still, the Jets had the worst defense against the run last season, and I don't see how the Jets significantly addressed that thus far in the offseason.  In fact, we lost our best run defender in Fatukasi, and did nothing to replace him.  Yes, Sauce and the 2 back end backs that we got in free agency will help a little, but we didn't pick up a d tackle, and we picked up a total of zero linebackers to combat the front lines of the running attack.  This alone will assure that the Jets will still be a team in need.

My second question mark is of course Zach Wilson.  Will he take a step forward?  For me, if he is just average, the Jets will take a leap forward this year.  I think 8 or 9 wins is possible if he plays well, and 6 or 7 wins if he plays no better than he did last year.

Let't face it, the Jets are still not a playoff team, but if Zack takes a step up, the Jets will be playing significant football games going into December. 

Wilson is the big questionmark and the all encompassing factor.  If Wilson improves to play well and with consistency, the Jets will win... YES, I'm saying this... 10 to 12 games.  Remember where you heard this.  He does not even have to play lights out.  Just solid.  Move the chains, no hero ball.  If Wilson flops, they will win 6 games. 

As for the LB's.  The way Saleh's defense works, LB's are not that critical.  The defensive scheme, if you can call it a scheme is, if successful, driven by to very important components.

1. Generate pressure from a 4 man, one gap front.  That means the guys on the ends need to win 1 v 1 and the guys in the center of the line need to play the run like Marty Lyons and Salaam.

2. CB's are not just CB's.  They are Swiss Army Knives of the defense.  That is why we LOVED the Sauce pick so much. He's not just a DB.  He's manpower for the third level of the defense.  This also goes for the LB's.  In a 4 - 2 - 5 you cant think of the second and third level of the defense as LB's and DB's.  Think if them as a swarm where as each individual part of the hive uses instincts and speed.   The second and third level of the defense is one single unit.   The defense is going to play well enough most every week to win.

They will or will not win games based on how many points the offense can score.  It is all about offense and putting points on the board.  

That will come down to Wilson.  The have a fair line, they have a stable of TE's, they have plenty of talent at WR and they have ball carriers.

Wilson, Wilson, Wilson and nothing but Wilson

That is 2022.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Sammybighead said:

Run defense is a concern.

Depth on the oline is a concern. I'm terrified by the thought of van roten, feeney, mcdermott, or edoga being the primary backups and getting any snaps. 

I think we need 1 more above average starter at tackle or guard. I'm hoping AVT is being cross trained to fill in at RT in a pinch which would give them flexibility to either pick up interior OL or T, whichever opportunity presents itself.

Haven't you heard? it's a top 10 line because they passed on icky

/s

 

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5 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Wilson is the big question mark and the all encompassing factor.  If Wilson improves to play well and with consistency, the Jets will win... YES, I'm saying this... 10 to 12 games.  Remember where you heard this.  He does not even have to play lights out.  Just solid.  Move the chains, no hero ball.  If Wilson flops, they will win 6 games. 

That will come down to Wilson.  The have a fair line, they have a stable of TE's, they have plenty of talent at WR and they have ball carriers.

Wilson, Wilson, Wilson and nothing but Wilson

That is 2022.  

 

Pretty much this 

Wilson was ass last year and most Jets fans are either in denial or in delusion about just how ass he was 

Tua, who everyone in the forum makes fun of for being terrible, had like twice the touchdowns 

We don't talk about Bruno no no 

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22 minutes ago, GreenReaper said:

I remember Jets getting Pete Kendall when he was cut.  A versatile G-C who started for 3 years.  UDFA Mike DeVito was a solid run stopper DL in those years Jets went to an AFCCG.  Another UDFA...Damon Harrison...IMO...was the best run stuffer on a Jets team that had Mo Wilkerson and Sheldon Richardson. 

Getting solid contributors before the start of season...can be done.  JD-Saleh may have capable targets in mind that they can still add to this roster.  Especially by UDFA and waiver cuts. 

Harrison is the one we should have kept. Kris Jenkins was the most dominant Ive seen for Jets couldn’t stay healthy, broke when we got him. Fat Vince Wilfork likely best Ive seen, him or Haynesworth before Haynesworth got paid. 

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Our run defense issues last year came down to a few issues.

1) Two men named Davis.  Ashtyn and Jarred were both horrible tacklers.  Jarred is gone.  Ashtyn won't have to play as much on early downs hopefully with the infusion of Whitehead and hopefully return to health of Joyner.

2) Terrible first down results.  The secondary was so bad, in part because of the loss of Lawson up front and no appreciable pass rush, that we were facing a lot more 2nd and short and 3rd and short downs.  More runs against us.  Not what you want to see.

3) Inability to bring Safety up.  Because our secondary was so challenged after Bryce Hall, we had to run with two deep Safeties more often than Saleh would normally want to.  His defense prefers to attack the LOS with one Safety (think Jamal).  Well, probably more than anything, that explains why he wanted Gardner in the draft.  Now, with Gardner, Reed, and Hall starting instead of Hall, Echols, and Carter - and with deeper and better depth off the bench, we may see more of what he wants to do, which will directly impact the success of the run defense.

4) JFM out of position.  JFM is more effective from the DT position.  The loss of Lawson forced him to move outside.  Rankins was awful filling in.  Quinnen actually plays the run well.  An interior of JFM and QW will be better than what we had last year.  

None of this means anything without health and good execution, but despite the lack of signing/drafting a new DT, there are reasons to expect the run defense to be better, possibly much better, this year.

Everything but 4 is correct. Saleh has already said that JFM will be staying at DE on run downs and shifting inside only for passing downs - which tells you both that they recognize where he's best as a pass rusher but also that they don't think he's better on the inside as a run stuffer. They like what he does for their run defense (but not pass D) at DE. 

The wide-9 is always susceptible to attack via the run, and this D is no exception. We're not going to be a great run D. Frankly, I don't expect us to be even league average at run D.

But that's OK, because it's a passing league right now. If you have to pick a weakness on D, you want it to be your interior DL against the run. 

Also - last year, there were only 4 teams that gave up fewer than 4 yards per carry on the season (Saints, Seahawks, Ravens, Titans). The Jets, in a bad year where they were tied for 10th worst YPC, gave up 4.5. We gave up the second most 20 yard rushes on the season (16) and second most 40 yard rushes (3). If the team can cut down on the big plays and get off the field on third down, we'll be fine.

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2 hours ago, GreenFish said:

It’s our biggest weakest.

The only way Ive tried to rationalize a potential improvement is

Better corner players means LB/S dont have to worry about coverage as much and can key in on the run game. Idk. We’re likely going to get gashed up the middle. 😂

Run defense is the easiest thing to fix.  This year hopefully fixed a lot of much harder things to fix.

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Right now I’d say our weakest positions are LB, S and maybe IDL next to Q. Fortunately these are the easiest/cheapest positions to fill. It couldn’t get all done on one offseason but it’s refreshing to have a GM target and prioritize premium positions

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They were push around by the Colts, Pats, Bills last season with double teams against our much lighter interior DL. They can expect more of the same this year. The coaches need to make some adjustments on running downs by sometimes slanting the DL to avoid double teams and clog up runs just by falling down. Having a better offense and scoring points and getting leads will help keep the defense off the field and remain fresh and force teams to pass.

Finding a run stuffer would help and so will keeping Ashtyn Davis on the bench. He is so far off the ball and takes really bad angles. I thought speed was he game but does not seem good against run or pass since he is so far down field.

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13 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Run defense is the easiest thing to fix.  This year hopefully fixed a lot of much harder things to fix.

I agree. Im really happy we prioritized weapons, pass coverage and pass rush.

If a goes well, next year’s offseason will be pretty straight forward. Rangy FS, and run defense. We’re close. 

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2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Zach will take a step forward .. not even a concern for me.

Our run defense ... yikes!

Our defense will be gashed this year and we will lose safeties to injury because of the derth of run defense in the center of the D Line and lack of talent around Mosley.

will be frustrating .. but hopefully not on offense.



 

I have to ask. Why are you so sure Zach takes this step forward? Zach had a very  Darnold type of year. Played poorly and then finished strong. With each strong finish we thought Darnold is set for a good season next year and it never happened. 

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I remember a time our run D was so bad the Raiders opened the game running 22 straight times w/o throwing a single pass and racked up like 3 scores. That was brutal.  

At least now teams will HAVE to run the ball b/c our Pass D is sooooo gooood we wont give up a single completion the entire season. Right!!!!

LOL we draft Sauce to force teams into running the ball which is our biggest weakness. SMH.

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2 minutes ago, FootballLove said:

I remember a time our run D was so bad the Raiders opened the game running 22 straight times w/o throwing a single pass and racked up like 3 scores. That was brutal.  

At least now teams will HAVE to run the ball b/c our Pass D is sooooo gooood we wont give up a single completion the entire season. Right!!!!

LOL we draft Sauce to force teams into running the ball which is our biggest weakness. SMH.

I remember that game. It was mean and disrespectful and the refs really should’ve made them run a passing play! 

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When I came out of the shower...this guy popped into my head.  I mentioned Pete Kendall...Mike DeVito...Damon Harrison.  As players either cut or UDFAs that Jets picked up and became solid contributors as starters. 

Now I'll add...Damien Woody!  A two time Supe winner with the Pats. 

He was cut...by Det.?...and Jets picked him up and he became a three year starter at RT.  A big part of that strong run attack Jets had that got them to those 2 AFCCGs.   IMO...that OL...which Damien was a crucial part of...was from 2008 to 2010...a top 3 one.  And in 2009...the #1 OL.  

Damien was a steal pickup!  

So...JD-Saleh...may have a plan...or an opportunity...to fill needs at positions...like LB...maybe Safety too.  And also strengthen the run defense.  

After what the JD-Saleh collaboration has accomplished in rebuilding this roster over these last two years.  I trust that they can still add a player or two to this roster...to fill needs...and improve team depth.  

There's plenty of time left for them to do so.

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4 hours ago, Alka said:

Yes, the Jets had a great draft.  Let's get that out of the way.  Still, the Jets had the worst defense against the run last season, and I don't see how the Jets significantly addressed that thus far in the offseason.  In fact, we lost our best run defender in Fatukasi, and did nothing to replace him.  Yes, Sauce and the 2 back end backs that we got in free agency will help a little, but we didn't pick up a d tackle, and we picked up a total of zero linebackers to combat the front lines of the running attack.  This alone will assure that the Jets will still be a team in need.

My second question mark is of course Zach Wilson.  Will he take a step forward?  For me, if he is just average, the Jets will take a leap forward this year.  I think 8 or 9 wins is possible if he plays well, and 6 or 7 wins if he plays no better than he did last year.

Let't face it, the Jets are still not a playoff team, but if Zack takes a step up, the Jets will be playing significant football games going into December. 

This isn't correct...

First, look at the speed and caliber of athlete's they have added to the D. That alone will improve the Run D.

The D was severely outmanned last year.  Look at some of the players they had on the field...just not NFL caliber players.  They played hard, for the most part, but were just not good enough.

Guys like JJ, Lawson, while known more for their pass rushing skills, are superior athletes who will help against the run.  This will also have a cascading effect of keeping Doubles off guys like Q and JFM who can then be more effective vs. the run.  Further, will free up the LB's and safeties to go make plays.  

Also, don't discount the additions of Reed, Whitehead, and Sauce vs. the run.  Again, far superior athletes who will in general add more speed to the entire D.

Finally, there were probably a lot of growing pains last year, as it was the first year under a new scheme.  I expect a lot of the issues from last year to be ironed out.

You'll see, they will be much faster, bigger, and overall much more competent this season.  

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I have to ask. Why are you so sure Zach takes this step forward? Zach had a very  Darnold type of year. Played poorly and then finished strong. With each strong finish we thought Darnold is set for a good season next year and it never happened. 
I saw more out of Zach than any QB since OB ... kid has the tools .. needs coaching is all. He was undisciplined and careless with the ball .. he was playing frenetic hero ball ... with a quality OL and better tight ends and receivers .. I'd put my cash down he will be a LOT better ... a LOT.


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3 minutes ago, Dunnie said:
3 hours ago, More Cowbell said:
I have to ask. Why are you so sure Zach takes this step forward? Zach had a very  Darnold type of year. Played poorly and then finished strong. With each strong finish we thought Darnold is set for a good season next year and it never happened. 

I saw more out of Zach than any QB since OB ... kid has the tools .. needs coaching is all.

What did you see? He made a lot of bad decisions and had poor accuracy for most of the season and finished as the leagues lowest rated QB. 

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What did you see? He made a lot of bad decisions and had poor accuracy for most of the season and finished as the leagues lowest rated QB. 
Supreme arm talent .. settled in and was less erratic last quarter of the season. Had moxy and toughness ... I'm serious ... this kid is the one.

He was a rookie and played like it ... trying to do too much and impress.

He learned .. and will be better with improved OL, TE, and WRs.
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Our run defense issues last year came down to a few issues.
1) Two men named Davis.  Ashtyn and Jarred were both horrible tacklers.  Jarred is gone.  Ashtyn won't have to play as much on early downs hopefully with the infusion of Whitehead and hopefully return to health of Joyner.
2) Terrible first down results.  The secondary was so bad, in part because of the loss of Lawson up front and no appreciable pass rush, that we were facing a lot more 2nd and short and 3rd and short downs.  More runs against us.  Not what you want to see.
3) Inability to bring Safety up.  Because our secondary was so challenged after Bryce Hall, we had to run with two deep Safeties more often than Saleh would normally want to.  His defense prefers to attack the LOS with one Safety (think Jamal).  Well, probably more than anything, that explains why he wanted Gardner in the draft.  Now, with Gardner, Reed, and Hall starting instead of Hall, Echols, and Carter - and with deeper and better depth off the bench, we may see more of what he wants to do, which will directly impact the success of the run defense.
4) JFM out of position.  JFM is more effective from the DT position.  The loss of Lawson forced him to move outside.  Rankins was awful filling in.  Quinnen actually plays the run well.  An interior of JFM and QW will be better than what we had last year.  
None of this means anything without health and good execution, but despite the lack of signing/drafting a new DT, there are reasons to expect the run defense to be better, possibly much better, this year.
You missed that all we have at LB is Mosley and the Wlliams kid. Safeties will continue their injury rate without better run stuffing LBs.
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27 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Supreme arm talent .. settled in and was less erratic last quarter of the season. Had moxy and toughness ... I'm serious ... this kid is the one.

He was a rookie and played like it ... trying to do too much and impress.

He learned .. and will be better with improved OL, TE, and WRs.

Look, I am hoping he does better but I have seen enough great arms in this league not make it and the biggest issue with him, all this crap about his long ball accuracy was exactly that. The only long pass of note he made was the TD to Davis where he pointed for Davis to go down field. 

Sorry, not at all sold he is going to be the one until he starts the season off strong. 

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22 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

You missed that all we have at LB is Mosley and the Wlliams kid. Safeties will continue their injury rate without better run stuffing LBs.

Moseley is the leader of the D. You underestimate him. I smell Pro Bowl.

 

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I think that the Jets are still trying to give people on the roster a chance to develop while also recognizing that the schedule with the AFC North and NFC North was very difficult.  

So we see Quincy and Mosley, but they also see Hamsah and Sherwood.  

I think they should be more aggressive about upgrading some spots, but money spent this year is money that is not available to spend next year.  

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7 hours ago, Alka said:

Yes, the Jets had a great draft.  Let's get that out of the way.  Still, the Jets had the worst defense against the run last season, and I don't see how the Jets significantly addressed that thus far in the offseason.  In fact, we lost our best run defender in Fatukasi, and did nothing to replace him.  Yes, Sauce and the 2 back end backs that we got in free agency will help a little, but we didn't pick up a d tackle, and we picked up a total of zero linebackers to combat the front lines of the running attack.  This alone will assure that the Jets will still be a team in need.

My second question mark is of course Zach Wilson.  Will he take a step forward?  For me, if he is just average, the Jets will take a leap forward this year.  I think 8 or 9 wins is possible if he plays well, and 6 or 7 wins if he plays no better than he did last year.

Let't face it, the Jets are still not a playoff team, but if Zack takes a step up, the Jets will be playing significant football games going into December. 

It would appear a big part of the run defense problem was due to issues below:

1) New defense that all the players had to learn which generally has players out of position a lot causing many missed tackles.

2) In both the secondary and at LB there were at least 5 rookies playing that also contributes to run stopping issues, plus 3 of those rookies were playing different positions than they did in college i.e the 2 safeties playing LB, and 1 CB in Pinnock switching to Safety.

3) Injuries to many players on D including DE Lawson, DE Curry, S Joyner, S Maye, etc. also caused run D issues. Hopefully those who remained will stay healthy.

4) The FAs from last year like DE Shaq Lawson, LB Davis, etc. underperformed when they were healthy enough to play. Hopefully the new FAs DT Solomon, DE Curry(who didn't play last year), DE Martin, S Joyner(who didn't play last year), etc. including the 2 DEs(JJ and Clemons) plus CB Sauce drafted combine to make a big difference in run D, which we will need since we were so badly gashed there last year.    

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Look, I am hoping he does better but I have seen enough great arms in this league not make it and the biggest issue with him, all this crap about his long ball accuracy was exactly that. The only long pass of note he made was the TD to Davis where he pointed for Davis to go down field. 
Sorry, not at all sold he is going to be the one until he starts the season off strong. 
Totally understandable ... I hope im right.
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If the Jets biggest concerns are IDL, LB and Safety then JD is doing something right. In regards to the run D, between moving JFM inside, Jermaine Johnson/Carl Lawson setting the edge and Whitehead/Reed/Gardner helping out I think it will be much improved. 

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While I agree we definitely need a run stopping DT, there will be a big schematic shift in the overall defense that should help the running game quite a bit.

Saleh has traditionally played with a single high safety on first and second down moving the strong safety down into the box to help defend the run and screen passes.  Due to the lack of talent/ability at CB last year we played 2 high almost all the time which removed a run defender from the box and led to us getting gashed in the running game.

Not only are Sauce and DJ both good tacklers on their own, they dont need consistent safety help. On top of that Whitehead is an excellent run defender so we will be able to crowd the box and play single high on early downs.  

As far as the DTs, Saleh focused on them penetrating into the backfield as opposed to taking up blockers (personally im not sure why we cant have more of a 2-gap philosophy on early downs to clog lanes but who knows) but that high risk-reward philosophy requires speed on the back end to be able to make up for the DTs penetrating and missing the tackle and we didnt have that before.   

I do think we need to find another DT (no clue why shepard is still here) who can plug holes but I think Whitehead is a fantastic scheme fit to help stop the run.

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22 hours ago, IndianaJet said:

Great points. Although I’m a little concerned about JFM moving inside.   I read an article where they discussed this and if I recall correctly, he had a great pass rush win rate from the inside but his run defense numbers suffered because he’s a little undersized for a DT. 

I can see him potentially playing end on early downs and switching inside on obvious passing downs. he's definitely far more of a pass rush threat at DT than a run stopper.

General rotation and depth should help too. Saleh doesn't want his DL guys playing a large amount of snaps.

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Also important to note is year 2 of the system. It’s not easy switching from a 3-4 to 4-3 in one offseason with a new coach and a lot of young players. We definitely won’t be top 10 in run defense but I think we’ll be much more towards the middle of the pack compared to last year. 

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23 hours ago, Alka said:

Yes, the Jets had a great draft.  Let's get that out of the way.  Still, the Jets had the worst defense against the run last season, and I don't see how the Jets significantly addressed that thus far in the offseason.  In fact, we lost our best run defender in Fatukasi, and did nothing to replace him.  Yes, Sauce and the 2 back end backs that we got in free agency will help a little, but we didn't pick up a d tackle, and we picked up a total of zero linebackers to combat the front lines of the running attack.  This alone will assure that the Jets will still be a team in need.

My second question mark is of course Zach Wilson.  Will he take a step forward?  For me, if he is just average, the Jets will take a leap forward this year.  I think 8 or 9 wins is possible if he plays well, and 6 or 7 wins if he plays no better than he did last year.

Let't face it, the Jets are still not a playoff team, but if Zack takes a step up, the Jets will be playing significant football games going into December. 

To your first question which is basically, have the Jets done enough on D given the LB situation and no real replacement for Fatukasi?

The answer is no... but that's okay.  It's clear in Zach's second year that JD is sill focused on building the offense around him.  For the first time in team history the Jets drafted all three skill positions - WR, RB, TE, in the first 3 rounds of an NFL Draft.  That tells you where JD's priorities continue to be (as they should IMO)

Run defense will likely continue to be weak but I feel that 2023 will be the year to truly address D a bit better.  After adding ZW, Becton, AVT, Elijah Moore, Garrett Wilson, Ruckert, Breece Hall, Michael Carter and even Denzel Mims ALL via the Draft since JD got here, the Jets will finally pour themselves into D in 2023.  Sauce and Johnson were big adds, but as you said there continue to be some holes that particularly hurt run D.  I think LB and DT are the big focus in 2023 via FA and/or the Draft.  We should see better D in 2022, but it still won't be fantastic.

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