Sauce WR #1 Matchups

[the Claw]

2 hours ago, mrcoops said:

Sauce is a very good prospect, but he will inevitably have an adjustment period in the NFL.

He often played against lesser competition in college and was rarely targeted. That will change in the NFL, and it will be a challenging experience.

I don't think he'll go through entire games with being targeted in the NFL, so he will have to adjust to that.

Since we picked him, I've gone back and watched quite a few Cincy games. Gardner is very impressive, but he does have things to work on. He can get a bit grabby on longer routes, which he won't get away with in the NFL. His tackling will need to improve in the NFL too, especially when playing in zone.

He's not Revis, who is the best technical CB I have ever seen, but Gardner is extremely talented and can become a top-tier NFL CB in time. He's sort of a cross between Antonio Cromartie and Richard Sherman, with the ability to be as good as those guys once he adjusts to the NFL game.

Agreed. It’s almost as if we never spent the last six months discussing how different this draft class from many other classes. 

[Dunnie]

Absolutely ridiculous comment. Sorry to break it to you bud but it's pretty likely that Sauce won't "dominate" right out of the gate. Corner is one of the hardest transitions from college to the pros, and for the most part, highly drafted corners usually face struggles out of the gates

That is not what I am saying ... my comments were a retort to the statement that we shouldn't expect him to dominate out of the gate as a rookie ....

I contend that we should absolutely expect that based on where he was drafted.

The CBs I listed were all drafted around that slot ... i would like to see the stats of those guys during their rookie campaigns.

[Scoop24]

He is gonna take his lumps . But he should be well battle tested after that list.

[Dunnie]

Revis was not Revis his rookie year. Huge adjustment period going from Cinci to the NFL, so I expect a potentially bumpy rookie season, although some guys like Surtain last year showed us having an elite rookie year isn't out of the realm of possibility. Still, I'm very fairly confident that in due time Sauce is going to be a hell of an NFL corner

Revis started in all 16 games of his rookie season. He ended his rookie season with 87 total tackles, one sack, one forced fumble, and 3 interceptions.. He was only bea for TDs 3 times.

I'll take that all day

[Doggin94it]

He's not going to be following those guys around the field this year, probably not all year and definitely not in the early part of the season. What is this nonsense? 

[TuscanyTile2]

On 5/14/2022 at 9:24 AM, Gastineau Lives said:

He shouldn't have gone number 4 overall then.

^^ Hater

[carlito1171]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:39 AM, Darnold's Forehead said:

This is assuming he is going to be treated as CB1 right out of the gate. I’d assume it’s likely but no one knows for sure.

Exactly. It will prob be DJ Reed's task at least to start the season

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

He's not going to be following those guys around the field this year, probably not all year and definitely not in the early part of the season. What is this nonsense? 

The majority of Jets fans are still operating under the assumption that corners still operate like Darrelle Revis in 2009, left on an island against the opposing team's # 1 WR.  

[Greenseed4]

9 hours ago, Dunnie said:

If you want to play that game ... if London sparkles or Thibs dominates... but to discount every draft in history is a sad mistake. It seems like you are saying that this draft is an outlier in history.

Fact remains the kid was drafted 4 overall ... a slot that does not allow for development... a slot that expects to produce a dominant starter.

You literally compared him to the greatest CBs of all time and suggested he needs to be better than them to justify being drafted (in his draft) before they were (in theirs).  It’s a ridiculous statement. 

 

[Facts]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:53 AM, Hael said:

 The shifty quick guys are going to be a problem

So, Tyreek Hill.

Glad he’s not in the division.

On 5/14/2022 at 8:53 AM, Hael said:

 and the polished route runners are also likely going to be a problem.

So. Stefan Diggs.

Glad he’s not in the division either.

 

 

[Facts]

12 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Fact remains…

I do remain.

Thanks for noticing.

[undertow]

12 hours ago, Cp561 said:

Absolutely ridiculous comment. Sorry to break it to you bud but it's pretty likely that Sauce won't "dominate" right out of the gate. Corner is one of the hardest transitions from college to the pros, and for the most part, highly drafted corners usually face struggles out of the gates

Not only a ridiculous comment but by all accounts this was a very weak top ten with only a few players that would have went top ten in a average year.... so I will judge Garden to the other players taken in the top ten this year not compared to CBs of past drafts. 

[BigRy56]

Over/under is .5 TDs given up by Sauce this year. Take the under

[Dunnie]

5 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

You literally compared him to the greatest CBs of all time and suggested he needs to be better than them to justify being drafted (in his draft) before they were (in theirs).  It’s a ridiculous statement. 

 

Not sure what you are not understanding ... my point is you do not draft CBs that high unless they are immediate difference makers ... you know who agrees with me ... History. The guys I mentioned were deserving of their draft position ... 

For the record I hope Sauce is the next Jaylen Ramsey or D Revis ...  

History tells you ... you don't draft a CB in the top 5 unless he is a sure thing. And this is just back to 2001 and mostly top 15s.

If he was the 4th best player in the draft ... great he should start and play well right away.

2022    3    Derek Stingley Jr.
2020    3    Jeff Okudah
2022    4    Sauce Gardener
2018    4    Denzel Ward
2016    5    Jalen Ramsey
2011    5    Patrick Peterson
2003    5    Terence Newman
2002    5    Quentin Jammer
2012    6    Morris Claiborne
2005    6    Pacman Jones
2010    7    Joe Haden
2021    8    Jaycee Horn
2014    8    Justin Gilbert
2005    8    Antrel Rolle
2004    8    DeAngelo Hall
2002    8    Roy Williams
2021    9    Patrick Surtain II
2020    9    C.J. Henderson
2013    9    Dee Milliner
2005    9    Carlos Rogers
2016    10    Eli Apple
2012    10    Stephon Gilmore
2004    10    Dunta Robinson
2018    11    Minkah Fitzpatrick
2017    11    Marshon Lattimore
2016    11    Vernon Haergaves
2015    11    Trae Waynes
2008    11    Leodis McKelvin
2003    11    Marcus Trufant
2013    12    D.J. Hayden
2014    14    Kyle Fuller
2007    14    Darrelle Revis
2005    14    Thomas Davis
2006    15    Tye Hill
2000    15    Deltha Oneil
2020    16    AJ Terrell
2015    16    Kevin Johnson
2008    16    Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie
2003    16    Troy Polamalu
2002    17    Phillip Buchanon
2018    18    Jaire Alexander
2015    18    Marcus Peters
2007    18    Leon Hall
2006    19    Antonio Cromartie
2001    20    Adam Archuleta

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Dunnie

[Greenseed4]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

History tells you ... you don't draft a CB in the top 5 unless he is a sure thing.

You listed 8 CBs that were drafted in the top 5. Wanna venture a guess how many of them are not “sure things”?  Half. Lol
And that was your example. 

History tells us a QB will be taken in the top-3 picks, 95% of the time. History tells us more than 1 QB will be taken in the first or second round.   History tells us that it would be insane to see 5 IOL taken in the first round.  That’s not normal. 
This was not a normal draft.  We didn’t even have the cliche “generational talent” in this draft. 

What you’re saying isn’t wrong, but it should start out with, “In a normal draft….” 

 

 

[rangerous]

he's going to have his work cut out for him.  the problem is the receivers know where they're going do the db is always reacting.  that takes time.  if a qb throws to a wr in the right place at the right time every time the db has no chance.  but qb's throw to a window so there's always a little slop on every pass and that's how the db can make a play.  what will really help gardner is a good pass rush that prevents the qb from making throws.  the db and the pass rush work hand in hand.

[Dunnie]

6 hours ago, Greenseed4 said:

You listed 8 CBs that were drafted in the top 5. Wanna venture a guess how many of them are not “sure things”?  Half. Lol
And that was your example. 

History tells us a QB will be taken in the top-3 picks, 95% of the time. History tells us more than 1 QB will be taken in the first or second round.   History tells us that it would be insane to see 5 IOL taken in the first round.  That’s not normal. 
This was not a normal draft.  We didn’t even have the cliche “generational talent” in this draft. 

What you’re saying isn’t wrong, but it should start out with, “In a normal draft….” 

 

 

 

Ok .. I can buy the "in a normal draft thing" ... who woulda thought that the year we have two top 10 picks there would be no 'generational' OLB or ILB. I wanted Hutch/Thibs (@4 Hutch was long gone) and London (@10 which ended up not being possible.) ...  there were question marks about his speed and separation. I am totally aware that I could be completely wrong about him. It took me about 25 minutes to get on board with the Gardner pick.

Back to the list ... Exactly 5 out of 45(2 of which were this year) ... Mostly successful picks. The ones that were mediocre or worse were abject failures of the pick. The only one i can think of that didn't have a very good rookie years was Jammer.

If Sauce is Ward or better everything will be fine. (3int Rookie)

This conversation was about whether or not we should expect anything out of Sauce as a rookie ... not whether we should have drafted him.

I expect Sauce to dominate.

If he flounders and Thibs, Hamilton, London or IK dominate ... that will be a different story.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Dunnie

[Dunnie]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

he's going to have his work cut out for him.  the problem is the receivers know where they're going do the db is always reacting.  that takes time.  if a qb throws to a wr in the right place at the right time every time the db has no chance.  but qb's throw to a window so there's always a little slop on every pass and that's how the db can make a play.  what will really help gardner is a good pass rush that prevents the qb from making throws.  the db and the pass rush work hand in hand.

That and maybe going against Moore(better route runner at this point)/Wilson in practice will help too.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Dunnie

[rangerous]

4 hours ago, Dunnie said:

That and maybe going against Moore(better route runner at this point)/Wilson in practice will help too.

good point.  they play like they practice and it helps to have good players to practice against.

[Jet Nut]

If he struggles, who do you replace him with in next years draft?  

[Jet Nut]

On 5/15/2022 at 9:55 AM, Dunnie said:

That is not what I am saying ... my comments were a retort to the statement that we shouldn't expect him to dominate out of the gate as a rookie ....

I contend that we should absolutely expect that based on where he was drafted.

The CBs I listed were all drafted around that slot ... i would like to see the stats of those guys during their rookie campaigns.


 

So if there were 7 QBs worthy of going near the top of the draft and he was picked 7 spots lower the expectations would drop?  

[Dunnie]

9 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

So if there were 7 QBs worthy of going near the top of the draft and he was picked 7 spots lower the expectations would drop?  

Does the draft value chart change based on the participants ?  Does a pick worth a next years 1 and 2 suddenly get devalued based on who is available in the current draft ?

Using your logic the right move may have been to trade the pick for selections in next years draft rather than draft a CB you don't expect to contribute in year one.

Picked at #4 he absolutely should contribute and play well.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Dunnie

[Jet Nut]

32 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Does the draft value chart change based on the participants ?  Does a pick worth a next years 1 and 2 suddenly get devalued based on who is available in the current draft ?

Using your logic the right move may have been to trade the pick for selections in next years draft rather than draft a CB you don't expect to contribute in year one.

Picked at #4 he absolutely should contribute and play well.

The logic is sound, if a draft is weak the best players move up the chart, doesn't mean they have to perform better as the 4th pick vs as the 14th pick.  

Trading back isnt solely in your hands, just cant want to trade out and it happens.  They would need a trading partner who totally disagrees with your evaluation or need for a player at 4.  Secondly who knows who will be available next year and what kind of value they will represent?  What if next years draft is worse, if the top players dont declare, get injured or dont develop as some believe they will today?

No one is saying the 4th overall doesnt have to perform well.  What I'm saying is you want Sauce to perform the way you feel hes capable of playing as the player you envisioned when scouting him.  Not by com-paring him to where others at his position were drafted in the past.  Who cares when Sanders or Revis were drafted. 

[Dunnie]

10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

The logic is sound, if a draft is weak the best players move up the chart, doesn't mean they have to perform better as the 4th pick vs as the 14th pick.  

Trading back isnt solely in your hands, just cant want to trade out and it happens.  They would need a trading partner who totally disagrees with your evaluation or need for a player at 4.  Secondly who knows who will be available next year and what kind of value they will represent?  What if next years draft is worse, if the top players dont declare, get injured or dont develop as some believe they will today?

No one is saying the 4th overall doesnt have to perform well.  What I'm saying is you want Sauce to perform the way you feel hes capable of playing as the player you envisioned when scouting him.  Not by com-paring him to where others at his position were drafted in the past.  Who cares when Sanders or Revis were drafted. 

I guess its somewhat the Jamal Adams conversation... do you draft a SS at 6 regardless of his talent level ?

Edited May 17, 2022 by Dunnie

[Jet Nut]

11 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

I guess its somewhat the Jamal Adams conversation... do you draft a SS at 6 regardless of his talent level ?

That was a whole lot different screw up by Macc.  It's hard to justify a S @ 6.  The JA pick just prices the point.  It's hard to impact the game enough as a S to justify the pick.  

I think the most interesting part of the Sauce pick will be it's he the 2nd or top former from this draft like most thought, including JD.  It's a lot like Revis vs. the rest of the DBs taken in the first 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

I guess its somewhat the Jamal Adams conversation... do you draft a SS at 6 regardless of his talent level ?

Is that SS capable of getting lots of turnovers in the passing game?  If the answer is no, then you don't draft him at 6, ever.

[Dunnie]

Is that SS capable of getting lots of turnovers in the passing game?  If the answer is no, then you don't draft him at 6, ever.

You hope the guy you drafted at 4 can .. and expect him to ... right ??

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, Dunnie said:

On 5/17/2022 at 8:57 PM, Jetsfan80 said:

Is that SS capable of getting lots of turnovers in the passing game?  If the answer is no, then you don't draft him at 6, ever.

You hope the guy you drafted at 4 can .. and expect him to ... right ??

Indeed.  Gardner would be in that category of “hope”.

Simply put, the only people you should be drafting in the top 10-12 picks or so should be either QBs, guys who will catch a lot of passes from QBs, guys whose primary responsibility is to protect the QB, guys who hit the QB, or guys who catch passes from opposing QBs.