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Pretty fair breakdown of Zach Wilson and second year QBs *WARNING PODCAST LINK*


T0mShane
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Just now, The Crusher said:

Or start him when the OC and head coach are learning  on the job. FU  Joe Douglas FU. Hard to fault the kid for that no?

People think I truly hate the likes of Christian Hackenberg, Sam Darnold and Zach Wilson.  Not really.  I hate the GMs that draft them and think its a good idea.  

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31 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

This is a reason not to draft a QB like that # 2 overall in the first place....

 

It worked out fine for the Chiefs and Mahomes.  That said, they did what we should have. They sat Mahomes, who was, by his coaches and teammates accounts, very….raw (a nice way of saying it)…his rookie year in order to let him sit, develop, learn, etc.:

46FE452E-0854-4513-9F8C-BB0CB80B06FC.thumb.jpeg.b9cdacc8f47e19f94617be5460b32b48.jpeg

Same for the Bills with Josh Allen, who actually regressed his final year at Wyoming:

50048C8F-EDB5-4CA6-835A-1725CA5BA6DE.thumb.jpeg.c8163d4c361604c87048826eea73afcd.jpeg

If a guy can play, he can play.  Period.  Zach has next year to prove that he can play, but this myth that his college schedule will have anything to do with it has been, and always will be, media contrived nonsense.

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

People think I truly hate the likes of Christian Hackenberg, Sam Darnold and Zach Wilson.  Not really.  I hate the GMs that draft them and think its a good idea.  

So your current position is that you hate JD? 

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20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

People think I truly hate the likes of Christian Hackenberg, Sam Darnold and Zach Wilson.  Not really.  I hate the GMs that draft them and think its a good idea.  

They gotta draft someone. Ok so Hakenburgh was a disaster of a pick. Agreed. Other than Josh Allen, who would have picked instead of Sam? You  know, Josh Allen, Buffalo’s running back. Who would you pick instead of Zach? Other than Aunt Berniece and no wouldn’t. Gotta pick QB’s when you don’t have one and your drafting that high. 

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12 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

They gotta draft someone. Ok so Hakenburgh was a disaster of a pick. Agreed. Other than Josh Allen, who would have picked instead of Sam? You  know, Josh Allen, Buffalo’s running back. Who would you pick instead of Zach? Other than Aunt Berniece and no wouldn’t. Gotta pick QB’a when you don’t have one and your drafting that high. 


No you don’t.  You can trade down.  You can draft someone else.  You can go the vet option.  This myth that you HAVE to draft a QB when you’re picking high needs to go away.  

Because when you pick a QB that high and he fails, teams tend to devote the next 3 years to a sunken cost.  If this wasn’t the case it wouldn’t be as disastrous, but we all know teams fall in love with QBs and just aren’t willing to “fail quickly”.  Hence why Flacco is the current backup rather than an actual capable vet:  Because no matter what, this is Wilson’s job in 2022 and likely 2023 also.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:


No you don’t.  You can trade down.  You can draft someone else.  You can go the vet option.  This myth that you HAVE to draft a QB when you’re picking high needs to go away.  

Because when you pick a QB that high and he fails, teams tend to devote the next 3 years to a sunken cost.  

Ah yes, the veteran route, which has always worked out well for the Jets.  Let’s look at the veterans available in 2021:

02936EB5-319A-4A4A-A15B-A72FF67EDBA7.thumb.png.5b8c223356637f0e1df1d7b1bbe6b31d.png

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Just now, Mogglez said:

Ah yes, the veteran route, which has always worked out well for the Jets.  Let’s look at the veterans available in 2021:

02936EB5-319A-4A4A-A15B-A72FF67EDBA7.thumb.png.5b8c223356637f0e1df1d7b1bbe6b31d.png


 

Oh so we’re going to pretend teams never trade for QBs now.   I see.

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:


 

Oh so we’re going to pretend teams never trade for QBs now.   I see.

You gonna give me a list of QBs that were available for trade orrrrrr

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1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

You gonna give me a list of QBs that were available for trade orrrrrr

When you have a high pick (or 2) and are actually willing to move it, I imagine you’d be surprised which QBs suddenly become available to you.  

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

When you have a high pick (or 2) and are actually willing to move it, you’d be surprised which QBs suddenly become available to you.  

That’s not a list.  Thats not even a single name.  That’s a fantasy idea in your mind.

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I’m just tired of drafting busts every 3-4 years bruh.  I’m not a GM just a guy who hates bad QBs.

We’re all tired of it homie, but if Zach busts so be it.  I’m cautiously optimistic because Joe Douglas seems to know that he has to actually build around his talented young QB prospect and not draft 3rd round, AARP Defense Tackles the first pick after taking one.  Then he followed it up with one of the best off-seasons and drafts I have ever seen in my lifetime as a fan of this team.  The excuses are gone now.  If Zach is the goods, we’ll know one way or another by the end of this year.  The fact that we have a GM that seems to “get it” is more important than anything else.

As for drafting a kid in general, I’m not going to fault GMs who take swings at it.  Maccagnan went the opposite route in 2017, and we’re still talking about it.

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Just now, johnnysd said:

So you would have disliked any QB taken at 2?

I was leery about all the QBs in that class, yes.  I liked Lance’s athletic gifts but his lack of experience was scary.  I’d have probably wanted Fields. 

With hindsight, I think the best move would have been to go with Pitts at 2 or trade back and go the vet, non-Darnold option.  Trubisky, Minshew….someone like that.  

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16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:


No you don’t.  You can trade down.  You can draft someone else.  You can go the vet option.  This myth that you HAVE to draft a QB when you’re picking high needs to go away.  

Because when you pick a QB that high and he fails, teams tend to devote the next 3 years to a sunken cost.  If this wasn’t the case it wouldn’t be as disastrous, but we all know teams fall in love with QBs and just aren’t willing to “fail quickly”.  Hence why Flacco is the current backup rather than an actual capable vet:  Because no matter what, this is Wilson’s job in 2022 and likely 2023 also.  

 

They should have taken the package the Niners gave the Dolphins to trade up to 3. It was the 12 pick last year, the 29 and a third this year, and another first next season. The 12 pick last year ended up being Micah Parsons.

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9 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

We’re all tired of it homie, but if Zach busts so be it.  I’m cautiously optimistic because Joe Douglas seems to know that he has to actually build around his talented young QB prospect and not draft 3rd round, AARP Defense Tackles the first pick after taking one.  Then he followed it up with one of the best off-seasons and drafts I have ever seen in my lifetime as a fan of this team.  The excuses are gone now.  If Zach is the goods, we’ll know one way or another by the end of this year.  The fact that we have a GM that seems to “get it” is more important than anything else.

As for drafting a kid in general, I’m not going to fault GMs who take swings at it.  Maccagnan went the opposite route in 2017, and we’re still talking about it.

By far most SB winning QB's have been homegrown. It should always be the preferred route. 

Let's hope our current one works!

 

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2 minutes ago, Grandy said:

By far most SB winning QB's have been homegrown. It should always be the preferred route. 

Let's hope our current one works!

 

Teams need to take the emotion out of it.  If the QB appears to be a failure by the end of year 2 (and lacks tremendous athletic gifts like a Josh Allen) you need to be willing to move on.  This 3+ year commitment to QB prospects just because he was a high pick is the part that needs to go. 

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12 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

They should have taken the package the Niners gave the Dolphins to trade up to 3. It was the 12 pick last year, the 29 and a third this year, and another first next season. The 12 pick last year ended up being Micah Parsons.

That’s fine on paper, but then you remember that you would have been stuck with Sam Darnold for one more year, choosing between Malik Wilson, Kenny Pickett, and that lot (I was a Desmond Ridder fan, I’ll say that though).

At some point you have to take a QB.  If Joe took that trade, it would stick piling picks for the next GM because there would be zero chance he would have made it to next year for the Bryce Young sweepstakes.  ESPECIALLY if San Francisco took Wilson, because I think he is light years ahead of where he is right now with the talent they have.

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30 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Ah yes, the veteran route, which has always worked out well for the Jets.  Let’s look at the veterans available in 2021:

02936EB5-319A-4A4A-A15B-A72FF67EDBA7.thumb.png.5b8c223356637f0e1df1d7b1bbe6b31d.png

Literally any one of those players could have gotten the 2021 Jets to four wins.

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29 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:


No you don’t.  You can trade down.  You can draft someone else.  You can go the vet option.  This myth that you HAVE to draft a QB when you’re picking high needs to go away.  

Because when you pick a QB that high and he fails, teams tend to devote the next 3 years to a sunken cost.  If this wasn’t the case it wouldn’t be as disastrous, but we all know teams fall in love with QBs and just aren’t willing to “fail quickly”.  Hence why Flacco is the current backup rather than an actual capable vet:  Because no matter what, this is Wilson’s job in 2022 and likely 2023 also.  

 

Hell yeah! If you are using the Madden ideal, why not? Reality is, it’s a business masquerading as a team, if fans cant have wins you better give them hope, even if it’s a lie. Honestly with guys like Fields, Lawrence and Zach, yeah, give them the three years. It’s a crap shoot. Thing hurt this team the most was the drafting and committing to Hack. Look at what that cost us in time and the potential of drafting one of the QBs available then? Zach would have never made it past San Fran. So we didn’t overdraft him. We just way way way overestimated him. Still don’t think it was a Jo Jo and Bobby thing forcing  that , has some Woody on it. 

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4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Teams need to take the emotion out of it.  If the QB appears to be a failure by the end of year 2 (and lacks tremendous athletic gifts like a Josh Allen) you need to be willing to move on.  This 3+ year commitment to QB prospects just because he was a high pick is the part that needs to go. 

Does Joe Douglas strike you as the type of GM that will do that though?  He 86’d Darnold despite the fact that there were questions as to who he truly was and who was to blame for his production, in order to move on sooner rather than later.  I don’t think anyone afraid Joe hanging on really should be.  If we’re in position to draft one of the top 2 next year, it’s probably because of the QB (obviously there may be other circumstances, but I digress…).  Everyone knows what will have to be done if that’s the case.

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9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Literally any one of those players could have gotten the 2021 Jets to four wins.

So what you’re saying is that you would rather win 4 games with Andy Dalton, Ryan Fitzpatrick (who would never come back here btw), or Cam Newton?  Furthermore, I don’t even agree with that notion because none of those guys light up Tennessee.  Sh*t, I don’t even think they beat Jacksonville.

Then you’re in desperation mode in this draft and lose one of Sauce Gardner, Garrett Wilson, or Jermaine Johnson II, to draft one Kenny Pickett,  Malik Willis, or Desmond Ridder.

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Just now, Mogglez said:

That’s fine on paper, but then you remember that you would have been stuck with Sam Darnold for one more year, choosing between Malik Wilson, Kenny Pickett, and that lot (I was a Desmond Ridder fan, I’ll say that though).

At some point you have to take a QB.  If Joe took that trade, it would stick piling picks for the next GM because there would be zero chance he would have made it to next year for the Bryce Young sweepstakes.  ESPECIALLY if San Francisco took Wilson, because I think he is light years ahead of where he is right now with the talent they have.

I would hope they moved the way they did in 2021 because they simply legitimately loved Zach Wilson, and not because they felt pressured to fill the QB spot with a guy who just ended up being Zach Wilson. If they had any doubt about him, they could have traded with the Niners and come into this off-season with a surreal mass of picks, Micah Parsons, and Russell Wilson/Jimmy Garoppolo/Baker Mayfield on the trade market. I fully understand the logic behind Douglas looking at the landscape and realizing that Wilson’s talent level would have made him the overwhelming #1 QB this year, so why not shoot your shot when you can, but it was a year early and everyone in the org is paying the price for it now, and odds are, they’re playing for this a year from now, too. 

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Just now, Mogglez said:

So what you’re saying is that you would rather win 4 games with Andy Dalton, Ryan Fitzpatrick (who would never come back here btw), or Cam Newton?  Furthermore, I don’t even agree with that notion because none of those guys light up Tennessee.  Sh*t, I don’t even think they beat Jacksonville.

Then you’re in desperation mode in this draft and lose one of Sauce, Garrett Wilson, or Jermaine Johnson II, to draft one Kenny Pickett,  Malik Willis, or Desmond Ridder.

Zach, by himself, lost the team a lot more games than he helped them win, so go easy with the Jacksonville stuff. Zach went 14/22 for 102 yards in that game. Those are Luke Falk numbers.

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1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

Or start him when the OC and head coach are learning  on the job. FU  Joe Douglas FU. Hard to fault the kid for that no?

This is true.   But on the flip side, all of them learned on the job and they banked another year of high draft picks.  

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I hate that he drafted Zach Wilson # 2 overall.  

It might be a full year of getting “@“ like after the Bucs game lol 

18 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Teams need to take the emotion out of it.  If the QB appears to be a failure by the end of year 2 (and lacks tremendous athletic gifts like a Josh Allen) you need to be willing to move on.  This 3+ year commitment to QB prospects just because he was a high pick is the part that needs to go. 

Theory destroyed for the Jets because Zach has tremendous athletic gifts.

The arm talent and elusiveness are undervalued by many on JN but they are an elite combo.  

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29 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

That’s fine on paper, but then you remember that you would have been stuck with Sam Darnold for one more year, choosing between Malik Wilson, Kenny Pickett, and that lot (I was a Desmond Ridder fan, I’ll say that though).

At some point you have to take a QB.  If Joe took that trade, it would stick piling picks for the next GM because there would be zero chance he would have made it to next year for the Bryce Young sweepstakes.  ESPECIALLY if San Francisco took Wilson, because I think he is light years ahead of where he is right now with the talent they have.

Ironically enough, the team has built enough talent around Wilson that if he busts, the next QB to come in will be (hopefully) surrounded by a turnkey offense that is ready to produce. 

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26 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Does Joe Douglas strike you as the type of GM that will do that though?  He 86’d Darnold despite the fact that there were questions as to who he truly was and who was to blame for his production, in order to move on sooner rather than later.  I don’t think anyone afraid Joe hanging on really should be.  If we’re in position to draft one of the top 2 next year, it’s probably because of the QB (obviously there may be other circumstances, but I digress…).  Everyone knows what will have to be done if that’s the case.

If the Jets are bad enough to be in a position to pick one of the top 2 next year, I don't think Douglas is going to be around to make the pick. 

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14 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I would hope they moved the way they did in 2021 because they simply legitimately loved Zach Wilson, and not because they felt pressured to fill the QB spot with a guy who just ended up being Zach Wilson. If they had any doubt about him, they could have traded with the Niners and come into this off-season with a surreal mass of picks, Micah Parsons, and Russell Wilson/Jimmy Garoppolo/Baker Mayfield on the trade market. I fully understand the logic behind Douglas looking at the landscape and realizing that Wilson’s talent level would have made him the overwhelming #1 QB this year, so why not shoot your shot when you can, but it was a year early and everyone in the org is paying the price for it now, and odds are, they’re playing for this a year from now, too. 

I can promise you that they loved Zach for Zach’s ability, potential, and the such.  It was never about desperation.  I could write a novel about that whole process (and may very will one day, lmfao), but for now I’ll leave it as a brief blurb/summarization.

11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Zach, by himself, lost the team a lot more games than he helped them win, so go easy with the Jacksonville stuff. Zach went 14/22 for 102 yards in that game. Those are Luke Falk numbers.

He also accumulated 91 yards and a TD on the ground (4 carries) which means he had a total of 2TDs, 193 yards, and, most importantly, no turnovers. I think we can both agree that Andy Dalton isn’t pulling off that 52 yard run or playing a turnover free game, lol (Cam might make that run though, I’ll give you that 😂).

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Just now, maury77 said:

If the Jets are bad enough to be in a position to pick one of the top 2 next year, I don't think Douglas is going to be around to make the pick. 

I’m back in forth with that, but I can agree.  It really depends on how it goes down.  If all of his players look like a hit, minus the QB?  I think it’s possible he sticks around.

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1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

I can promise you that they loved Zach for Zach’s ability, potential, and the such.  It was never about desperation.  I could write a novel about that whole process (and may very will one day, lmfao), but for now I’ll leave it as a brief blurb/summarization.

He also accumulated 91 yards and a TD on the ground (4 carries) which means he had a total of 2TDs, 193 yards, and, most importantly, no turnovers. I think we can both agree that Andy Dalton isn’t pulling off that 52 yard run or playing a turnover free game, lol (Cam might make that run though, I’ll give you that 😂).

The Jaguars were basically blocking for him on the way to the end zone!

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4 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Ironically enough, the team has built enough talent around Wilson that if he busts, the next QB to come in will be (hopefully) surrounded by a turnkey offense that is ready to produce. 

Which you have been saying should be the method for years, haha 😅.

Totally agree though.  No matter what I think we’re in a win-win situation.  Zach will take the next step, or we’ll draft another kid who will stand a really good chance right out of the gate!

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