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Kaepernick to workout for the Raiders


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19 minutes ago, MykePM said:

Did I miss the part where the NFL instituted a rule against their players kneeling?

I was responding to a statement by Warfish. Your question doesn't quite fit the discussion points I was responding to.

But switching gears to what you might be getting at: I don't believe the NFL has a rule about kneeling, so that leaves it up the to individual organizations to decide what their employees (the players) can and cannot do. I hope the NFL leaves most decisions to the teams/organizations.

 

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6 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'd love to hear your logic/reasoning on this. 

Keep the two political parties out of it, and I am sure you'll be fine.

This is more of a general conceptual/philosophical question than a purely 'political' one anyway.  It's not about what someone is protesting per se, but where it is appropriate to protest and the relationships between employer and employee if you use their assets (including your work time) in order to engage in self-interested activity (which ultimately protest is, again, regardless of what issue is protested per se).

I don’t think it’s an across the board thing. There are some situations where it’s just not possible. That being said, we as a society are far too used to giving up our autonomy for the sake of a company. Imo, employees have far more power than they realize. 
 

As far as the Kap thing goes, a sports team is an entertainment company when it’s all said and done. Players using that as a platform was inevitable. It’s really no different than teams virtue signaling about patriotism or breast cancer or anything other than sports. In fact, I would argue that a precedent has been set that the NFL has become a platform for all kinds of stuff. They would be complete hypocrites for denying Kaepernick this platform. I think people just don’t like what he has to say, and that speaks volumes to me.

 

 

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5 hours ago, doitny said:

its not baffling that Vegas wants a backup. its baffling that Kap would sign with a team where he has no chance to start. 

and from what i heard the workout went great yet he has not signed with the Raiders. what happened? the Raiders obviously want a backup thats why they tried him out. did Kap not sign because he doesnt want to be a backup? then why even work out with them if he was never going to seriously sign there.

Kap start?  He’s been banned from the nfl for 6 years now for sitting down at the incorrect time.  The guy is lucky if he gets a gig as a ballboy

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9 hours ago, DetroitRed said:

Agreed. I’m going to Tahiti next week.  My Pre-k students will be watching the documentary” Jacob’s new dress “ , and their parents won’t even have to be informed I’m away or showing the video.  I love my time 

Yes because that’s what I said. Thanks for bringing the drama.

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7 hours ago, Warfish said:

I'm not sure I understand the relation/relevance of the question to what I posted. :(

I'm not trying to be obtuse, you know I'm generally happy to tell people what I think, but I honestly don't understand what you're trying to get at here.

What does being pro- or anti- Union have to do with protesting on employers time?  Help a brother out here.

 

 

Unions, typically begin with workers protesting  and organizing on the clock. Not all, but in my life, most. 

By your comments you'd not support this. Just sayin. 

 

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19 hours ago, Embrace the Suck said:

He's at work as an employee, as opposed to being on his own personal time. Positions in the NFL, any position at any job for that matter, exist to serve a business which serves clients. It doesn't exist to serve as his personal platform. People aren't paying, and attending to hear his message.  If he want's to tweet about it, start a foundation, or march in a peaceful demonstration on his own time and dime then he's more than welcome to as it's his right to do so. I'm thinking that many people, who support advocacy at work, would change their tune if an athlete or any other employee started promoting their pro life/abortion or pro gun stance. Not specifically you, but people in general. 

Just curious: how do you feel about players praying on the field during a game?

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13 hours ago, 65 Toss Power Trap said:

I was responding to a statement by Warfish. Your question doesn't quite fit the discussion points I was responding to.

But switching gears to what you might be getting at: I don't believe the NFL has a rule about kneeling, so that leaves it up the to individual organizations to decide what their employees (the players) can and cannot do. I hope the NFL leaves most decisions to the teams/organizations.

 

I get your point, but They have a collective bargaining agreement that covers pretty much everything including punishment

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22 hours ago, Embrace the Suck said:

Well, you say that, but let's see how he actually looks in a camp after his extended vacation. Saying he's better than a 3rd stringer isn't saying much. In fact I would argue that the 3rd string QB is more of a young developmental guy spot as opposed to a getting old, out of the league years, and trying to get back in spot. 

Ok then let's just judge him based on his talent on the field. And btw with injuries a good number of 3rd stringers have gotten chances to play in regular season games and it's hurt teams like the Jets (Luke Falk).

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11 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

 

Unions, typically begin with workers protesting  and organizing on the clock. Not all, but in my life, most. 

By your comments you'd not support this. Just sayin. 

 

Ah, ok, I see now, thank you.

I support the existence of Unions, even if I'd never join another one personally.  In my experience Unions are more corrupt than then management they oppose, and serve mostly to line the pockets of Union leadership, fund that leaderships political friends, and protect bad union members more than truly serving the rank and file, but your own personal mileage may vary.

I do not generally support Unions protesting or organizing on their employers time (i.e. during the time the employees are being paid to work).  If the cause of labor organization is important, find the time on your own time to organize.  

If "Union activity time" is negotiated in their agreement(s) with Management, then that's fine of course.

I'd also say this is a very different situation that Kap, as a Unions "protest" is likely directly against their employer.  More like a work-stoppage/strike than a "protest" of some social ill.  Labor v. Management is a very different beast than socio-political "protest".

That's not the case with Kap, Kap is not protesting the NFL as his management from a Union standpoint, he's is using his employers time/stage without permission to protest a social ill.  I happen to agree with his cause, just not his methodology.  He has/had a loud enough microphone on his own, he had no need to involve his employer on their time.

If a Union wanted to "protest" some social ill, unrelated to their employer, they too should do it on their own time, not their employers time.

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2 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Just curious: how do you feel about players praying on the field during a game?

Are they using the game as a platform to spread their political, or religious views? For instance I don't see any religious players walking around with anti abortion signs, or telling people that gay marriage is wrong during game interviews which would be both political and religious propaganda. If a guy takes a moment to himself to connect with his higher power, hope that he doesn't get injured, or that the guy lying on the field isn't paralyzed I don't see that as trying to "spread the gospel" or incite a reaction from people. I'm not religious myself either so this isn't me making a personal exception for something I want, or do. However, if for instance some religious player started using nfl/game time/interviews to attempt to convert people to a religion, push their abortion beliefs, or anti acronym beliefs they too would be out of line also. Having said that, if the NFL (as the employer) says "go ahead, and take a knee if you'd like" then go for it, and deal with any potential fall out which occurs.  Personally, I never really cared, and I think they (conservative media) made a folk hero out of a nitwit by giving him any attention to begin with. 

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Over the last few years, each time I've noticed Kap making noise about playing again, it wound up preceding something he was doing with his media or other endeavors.

That big workout he canceled last minute wound up being a few weeks before his shoe release. He posted workout videos a year or so later before his Netflix doc release. A few months ago, he posted another workout vid before his book release.

He's been promoting himself as a Publisher and not an athlete for a few years now.

My strong guess is that, after being out of the league for 6+ years, this attempt will look similar to how Tebow looked last year trying out.

I hope he lights it up and has a Hall of Fame career! But I think it's way more likely he won't make it and that we'll see another media or product release from him before the season starts. I think it's really smart of him to leverage the spotlight while he still has it.

 

image.thumb.png.8b4320539319b65d11a580026f83927d.png

 

 

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Ah, ok, I see now, thank you.

I support the existence of Unions, even if I'd never join another one personally.  In my experience Unions are more corrupt than then management they oppose, and serve mostly to line the pockets of Union leadership, fund that leaderships political friends, and protect bad union members more than truly serving the rank and file, but your own personal mileage may vary.

I do not generally support Unions protesting or organizing on their employers time (i.e. during the time the employees are being paid to work).  If the cause of labor organization is important, find the time on your own time to organize.  

If "Union activity time" is negotiated in their agreement(s) with Management, then that's fine of course.

I'd also say this is a very different situation that Kap, as a Unions "protest" is likely directly against their employer.  More like a work-stoppage/strike than a "protest" of some social ill.  Labor v. Management is a very different beast than socio-political "protest".

That's not the case with Kap, Kap is not protesting the NFL as his management from a Union standpoint, he's is using his employers time/stage without permission to protest a social ill.  I happen to agree with his cause, just not his methodology.  He has/had a loud enough microphone on his own, he had no need to involve his employer on their time.

If a Union wanted to "protest" some social ill, unrelated to their employer, they too should do it on their own time, not their employers time.

Thoughtful clarification. 👍

We could probably split hairs over where the line is for “employers time”, but not sure it matters. Most of humanity posts on social media while ‘on the clock’ at this point. I think it’s a pretty fuzzy line to draw, but can appreciate that you actually have given it thought, regardless of agreement or not.

 

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2 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

Ok then let's just judge him based on his talent on the field. And btw with injuries a good number of 3rd stringers have gotten chances to play in regular season games and it's hurt teams like the Jets (Luke Falk).

Golden Girls Rose GIF by TV Land

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17 hours ago, Larz said:

I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

is said to have come from Voltaire. It is not from Voltaire, the 18th-century philosopher, but it was a paraphrase from a biographer named Evelyn Beatrice Hall of what she thought Voltaire was thinking

Voltaire was reportedly asked upon his deathbed if he wished to recant his rejection of Christianity and if he would renounce Satan. 

He replied, "this is no time to be making enemies."

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1 hour ago, Embrace the Suck said:

Are they using the game as a platform to spread their political, or religious views? For instance I don't see any religious players walking around with anti abortion signs, or telling people that gay marriage is wrong during game interviews which would be both political and religious propaganda. If a guy takes a moment to himself to connect with his higher power, hope that he doesn't get injured, or that the guy lying on the field isn't paralyzed I don't see that as trying to "spread the gospel" or incite a reaction from people. I'm not religious myself either so this isn't me making a personal exception for something I want, or do. However, if for instance some religious player started using nfl/game time/interviews to attempt to convert people to a religion, push their abortion beliefs, or anti acronym beliefs they too would be out of line also. Having said that, if the NFL (as the employer) says "go ahead, and take a knee if you'd like" then go for it, and deal with any potential fall out which occurs.  Personally, I never really cared, and I think they (conservative media) made a folk hero out of a nitwit by giving him any attention to begin with. 

Fair enough, but I think it's pretty apparent that there is a very slippery slope from personal actions to personal statements. As long as no one would have a problem with a player scoring a touchdown, throwing down a prayer rug, and genuflecting East to Mecca, then all the Christian shenanigans can pass I suppose. I prefer the Zen Buddhist player who, when he scores a TD simply turns and asks: "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" :)

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3 hours ago, Warfish said:

Ah, ok, I see now, thank you.

I support the existence of Unions, even if I'd never join another one personally.  In my experience Unions are more corrupt than then management they oppose, and serve mostly to line the pockets of Union leadership, fund that leaderships political friends, and protect bad union members more than truly serving the rank and file, but your own personal mileage may vary.

I do not generally support Unions protesting or organizing on their employers time (i.e. during the time the employees are being paid to work).  If the cause of labor organization is important, find the time on your own time to organize.  

If "Union activity time" is negotiated in their agreement(s) with Management, then that's fine of course.

I'd also say this is a very different situation that Kap, as a Unions "protest" is likely directly against their employer.  More like a work-stoppage/strike than a "protest" of some social ill.  Labor v. Management is a very different beast than socio-political "protest".

That's not the case with Kap, Kap is not protesting the NFL as his management from a Union standpoint, he's is using his employers time/stage without permission to protest a social ill.  I happen to agree with his cause, just not his methodology.  He has/had a loud enough microphone on his own, he had no need to involve his employer on their time.

If a Union wanted to "protest" some social ill, unrelated to their employer, they too should do it on their own time, not their employers time.

How do you feel about “companies” protesting -  on the company’s time - and using “company” resources by raising PACs, lobbying, and making massive contributions to not only protest things the company doesn’t like or want, but to effectively “buy” politicians?

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1 minute ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Fair enough, but I think it's pretty apparent that there is a very slippery slope from personal actions to personal statements. As long as no one would have a problem with a player scoring a touchdown, throwing down a prayer rug, and genuflecting East to Mecca, then all the Christian shenanigans can pass I suppose. I prefer the Zen Buddhist player who, when he scores a TD simply turns and asks: "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" :)

I'm going with the existentialist's approach: "Why have I put myself here?"

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4 hours ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

As long as no one would have a problem with a player scoring a touchdown, throwing down a prayer rug, and genuflecting East to Mecca, then all the Christian shenanigans can pass I suppose.

Is the player making a scene, or delaying the game to do so? If not, I, particularly as a potential customer, do not care (regardless of their faith). Keep in mind the last I checked the NFL doesn't delay games for what you refer to as christian shenanigans either so don't expect it for other forms of shenanigans. If a guy wants to break out a prayer rug on the sidelines, and do his thing I'm not concerned. If the NFL said "we don't want players praying on the field" (regardless of faith) it wouldn't bother me at all either, and as the employer they are free to do so as part of the terms of employment.

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32 minutes ago, Embrace the Suck said:

Is the player making a scene, or delaying the game to do so? If not, I, particularly as a potential customer, do not care (regardless of their faith). Keep in mind the last I checked the NFL doesn't delay games for what you refer to as christian shenanigans either so don't expect it for other forms of shenanigans. If a guy wants to break out a prayer rug on the sidelines, and do his thing I'm not concerned. If the NFL said "we don't want players praying on the field" (regardless of faith) it wouldn't bother me at all either, and as the employer they are free to do so as part of the terms of employment.

Kaepernick didn't delay the game or make a scene, as you put it. A bunch of players running to the middle of the field to pray together at the end of a game is far more of a "scene." But in general I agree with you. If somebody is using the workplace as a vehicle for personal/ideological/religious statements, it's usually inappropriate. Personally, I'd scrap the National Anthem too, as it's a silly and empty exercise that literally says nothing about the actual meaning of patriotism. It's just a miserably bad tune. I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson doing anything but laughing at the idiocy of such Boy Scout BS.

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It would be great if he either made the team and we could see if he can still play and at what level. Or, if he doesn’t and we can collectively put the discussion behind us while Kap continues to build his successful media business.

I think we are finally done with the “Tebow should get another shot” discussion after last season’s signing. I feel like we’re all done with Antonio brown (can still play, but not worth the headache). Would be nice to see where Kap sits on the spectrum.
 

Fwiw, to me, it’s no longer that interesting of a question. So much time has elapsed. I think if he wanted to play and still had it, something would have happened by now. But who knows.

McDaniels won’t comment on his workout:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33988929/josh-mcdaniels-colin-kaepernick-workout-derek-carr-knows-las-vegas-raiders-team%3Fplatform%3Damp
 

This one says it was positive but not many details:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/33992256/source-colin-kaepernick-workout-las-vegas-raiders-positive-no-deal-imminent%3Fplatform%3Damp

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21 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Thoughtful clarification. 👍

We could probably split hairs over where the line is for “employers time”, but not sure it matters. Most of humanity posts on social media while ‘on the clock’ at this point. I think it’s a pretty fuzzy line to draw, but can appreciate that you actually have given it thought, regardless of agreement or not.

 

An extremely fair point.  Many of my posts here are strictly speaking not on my own time.  I'd be a flaming hypocrite not to admit the validity of this point.

I think where I differentiate is that most of our collective "time stealing" from our employers is private business done privately.  It's not using the employers time AND power to bolster your own without their permission/agreement. 

For example, I post on JN as an individual to express my views on the Jets.  Private. 

I do not use my employers Twitter Account to post my opinions about the Jets, without their permission.  Public.

I think this is a meaningful difference to note.   

I think perhaps this is why the Union issue seemed unrelated, as the relationship there is so very different that what we're discussing here, in a very complex way.  Labor v. Management is an awesome topic, very interesting for a socio-political/political science policy/theory wonk like me.  But it doesn't really involve the amplification of an employees voice via the theft of the employers voice.  Like it or not, game-time on TV is the employers voice (the NFL in this case). It's their show, on their dime, with their paid players, etc.  By using hat stage without permission to express some controversial idea the employer doesn't want expressed in that way, it's akin to my simplistic example above.  

If Kap hacked the NFL Twitter in order to protest BLM issues, would we also be okay?  Maybe, maybe not, probably depends on how we feel about the issue (lets be honest, as human animals, most folks don't have hard rules for how they see or support things, it all depends on if the thing in question is something they support or not, the old "ends justify the means" question of social policy).

Ultimately, my own opinion was mild disagreement with Kap because I do have hard/fast rules on most things, and I felt he would be more than loud enough speaking his mind on his own time.  Complicating the game product wasn't necessary to get his message out effectively.  But I also didn't think he form of protest was a very big deal at all, personally.  I'm amazed that so many couldn't see the difference between kneeling to protest issues and "hating 'Merica!" like some seemed to think.  It was about as mild and peaceful a protest as we could hope for, and it really wasn't that bad, certainly not bad enough to warrant all the "I'm quitting watching the NFL" sturm un drang I heard from many folks I know of a specific political bent.  But that's just my opinion.

Sorry for doubly long-winded old friend, but I do enjoy the discussions.

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On 5/28/2022 at 6:20 PM, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Kaepernick didn't delay the game or make a scene, as you put it. A bunch of players running to the middle of the field to pray together at the end of a game is far more of a "scene." But in general I agree with you. If somebody is using the workplace as a vehicle for personal/ideological/religious statements, it's usually inappropriate. Personally, I'd scrap the National Anthem too, as it's a silly and empty exercise that literally says nothing about the actual meaning of patriotism. It's just a miserably bad tune. I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson doing anything but laughing at the idiocy of such Boy Scout BS.

"Kaepernick didn't delay the game or make a scene, as you put it." - Maybe, maybe not. I'd speculate that he knew exactly what he was doing in an attempt to draw attention to himself by creating a spectacle, and create a lucrative platform for himself. You'll notice he transitioned quite quickly into his well paid "advocacy" role, and as others have mentioned he has recently been "coming back", but then not while advertising his products for sale.  To be fair I've also said that conservative news played a large part in creating said spectacle.  

"A bunch of players running to the middle of the field to pray together at the end of a game is far more of a "scene."" - The key being the end of the game, after they have concluded. As opposed to during the National Anthem which I could take it or leave also. I don't equate virtue signaling with loving one's country.

It was always an employee being at work issue for me. Being at work with the average person is already mind numbing, and often annoying. We don't need more useless people politicizing the workplace more than it already is.  

 

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It’s pretty obvious that Kap has been blackballed. When a QB with his experience and number of starts and accomplishments isn’t signed or even given a try out by all 30 plus teams when there have been shortages of QBs and they sign guys with zero experience you know it’s coordinated. He isn’t so far being offered a contract with the Raiders and he has a better resume than the other two QBs on their roster after Carr. As for kneeling how come it was OK for league officials and owners like Jerry Jones to kneel before games after George Floyd was killed. 

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1 minute ago, Rangers9 said:

It’s pretty obvious that Kap has been blackballed. When a QB with his experience and number of starts and accomplishments isn’t signed or even given a try out by all 30 plus teams when there have been shortages of QBs and they sign guys with zero experience you know it’s coordinated. He isn’t so far being offered a contract with the Raiders and he has a better resume than the other two QBs on their roster after Carr. 

Look just cuz Nate Peterman is on an nfl roster and kapernick is not means nothing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Dwight Englewood said:

Look just cuz Nate Peterman is on an nfl roster and kapernick is not means nothing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

😆

Look it’s not just one team it’s all teams. He’s better than those guys and at least deserved a try out. Most teams carry 4 QBs going into training camp so don’t tell me he’s not good enough to get a contract and invite to camp.  If you personally dislike the guy that’s OK too. 

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3 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

I think they should let Kap have a fair shot and black ball Baker Mayfield next. 

In showing support for fellow short people, Baker should adopt genuflecting on both knees during the National Anthem.

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1 hour ago, Rangers9 said:

It’s pretty obvious that Kap has been blackballed. When a QB with his experience and number of starts and accomplishments isn’t signed or even given a try out by all 30 plus teams when there have been shortages of QBs and they sign guys with zero experience you know it’s coordinated.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-ravens-ray-lewis-colin-kaepernick-20170905-story.html

"An unflattering tweet from the girlfriend of Colin Kaepernick was behind the Ravens' decision to not sign the controversial free-agent quarterback, Ray Lewis said Tuesday night on Showtime's "Inside the NFL."

The Aug. 2 post by radio host Nessa Diab compared Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti and Lewis, a longtime face of the franchise, to characters from "Django Unchained": Leonardo DiCaprio's cruel plantation owner and Samuel L. Jackson's loyal house slave, respectively."

It may have been a self fulfilling prophecy that he never got another position. I doubt there are many people who hire you after you deliberately insult them. It becomes a risk reward scenario for management. Is the perceived talent worth the perceived risk? Often entities side with the talent, but it seems this time teams decided it wasn't worth it. That isn't blackballing someone. That's someone making themselves unemployable.  

"Then, his girl [Colin Kaepernick's girlfriend] goes out and put out this racist gesture and doesn't know we are in the back office about to try to get this guy signed. Steve Bisciotti has said it himself, 'How can you crucify Ray Lewis when Ray Lewis is the one calling for Colin Kaepernick?'

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10 minutes ago, Embrace the Suck said:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-ravens-ray-lewis-colin-kaepernick-20170905-story.html

"An unflattering tweet from the girlfriend of Colin Kaepernick was behind the Ravens' decision to not sign the controversial free-agent quarterback, Ray Lewis said Tuesday night on Showtime's "Inside the NFL."

The Aug. 2 post by radio host Nessa Diab compared Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti and Lewis, a longtime face of the franchise, to characters from "Django Unchained": Leonardo DiCaprio's cruel plantation owner and Samuel L. Jackson's loyal house slave, respectively."

It may have been a self fulfilling prophecy that he never got another position. I doubt there are many people who hire you after you deliberately insult them. It becomes a risk reward scenario for management. Is the perceived talent worth the perceived risk? Often entities side with the talent, but it seems this time teams decided it wasn't worth it. That isn't blackballing someone. That's someone making themselves unemployable.  

"Then, his girl [Colin Kaepernick's girlfriend] goes out and put out this racist gesture and doesn't know we are in the back office about to try to get this guy signed. Steve Bisciotti has said it himself, 'How can you crucify Ray Lewis when Ray Lewis is the one calling for Colin Kaepernick?'

That’s one team out of 32. Not Kap his gf and in 2017. There’s plenty for dumb comments Ray Lewis isn’t the paragon of virtue there’s imo a lot worse people not blacklisted than Kap. There’s a political element in this country that has it in for Kap and his pov. 

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