OTA Updates. Wednesday June 1

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Then he shouldn't start.  When he can beat out the Veteran, he should start.

I agree up to a point. A rookie is learning so much so early that the veteran should be vastly outplaying him. If it's in or near the same general ballpark I'd go with the rookie (provided it's not because both the rookie and veteran look equally clueless).

The objection imo isn't so much that Wilson started over White, since White had no (non-preseason) live action himself at that point, was just as new as Wilson in the system, and he needed all of August to beat out Morgan ffs.

The objection was in not having a serious veteran in there outright. They didn't give it to Wilson over a veteran; it's that there was no veteran in the first place, so there was no one for him to beat. Whatever White ultimately did in his initial stint, clearly no one on the team thought he had that in him when they decided to sign no one else for the summer. 

I'm more of a let him get his lumps in type, so long as he isn't developing - and then further, reinforcing - bad habits borne of panic; outside of that (and a fluke injury, I guess) the "ruining" aspect is preposterously overblown. What's done is done, but it's a legit criticism that they purposely didn't have any other NFL QB on the roster.

It was made that much worse with Knapp's untimely passing, but once that happened they needed to get a serious veteran in much sooner. FFS they didn't even replace Knapp with Cavanaugh until after Wilson's last live preseason action was behind them. With a rookie QB - plus a first-time OC and so many other first-time coaches on the staff under him - imo that was a worse crime than not having this Bryce Hall level competition to overcome. 

[maury77]

2 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

Because the team didn't have any viable other option and was willing to take the short-term lumps to accelerate his development.

There are only a few reasons not to start a 1st round rookie QB:

1) They're so "not ready" that it will actively harm their development. Not just "not currently sufficiently advanced to do well right away" but "playing now will create bad habits/shatter their confidence/prevent them from working on things" (the "Trey Lance")

2) You're a contending team with a viable veteran QB option who has a chance to take you to the playoffs (the "Pat Mahomes"); or

3) You're not a contending team but you have a well-respected vet QB and handing the job to a rookie will harm the locker room

The Jets didn't fit any of those buckets. Zach's primary issue was going to be adjusting to the level of competition, which you can't really do from the bench, they weren't a contender, and there was no vet with the room's support. Under those circumstances, you start the kid if the camp competition is remotely close, and let him get live-bullets experience as quickly as possible. Chicago would have been better off doing the same thing with Fields

Wilson didn't fit into category 1? Agree to disagree. 

[maury77]

2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

What were they going to do, start Mike White against Carolina?

Didn't turn out so bad against the Bengals, who went on to play in the Super Bowl. For the record, I don't think Mike White is the answer at QB for the Jets. 

[peekskill68]

49 minutes ago, Lith said:

 

He really does look a lot like Cromartie...

[Barry McCockinner]

3 hours ago, maury77 said:

I know I'm going toi get downvotes for this,  but why does Gardner "have to earn it" when Zach Wilson was handed the starting job last year right out the gate?

Wilson got similar treatment but had weaker competition. I don't remember when he was named starter but it wasn't until after training camp began. You can pull up articles with Saleh quotes where he's avoiding naming him starter. I think most people assumed he would start, but most people probably assume Sauce is starting week 1 too.

[maury77]

49 minutes ago, Drums said:

Call me crazy but could it be possible he learned from his first ever year as being a head coach?

I suppose we will find out what he actually learned at the end of this season. 

[maury77]

Just now, Barry McCockinner said:

Wilson got similar treatment but had weaker competition. I don't remember when he was named starter but it wasn't until after training camp began. You can pull up articles with Saleh quotes where he's avoiding naming him starter. I think most people assumed he would start, but most people probably assume Sauce is starting week 1 too.

Entirely possible, I could be mistaken about when he was announced the starter, but I remember Wilson getting the first reps almost from the start. 

[More Cowbell]

5 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Didn't turn out so bad against the Bengals, who went on to play in the Super Bowl. For the record, I don't think Mike White is the answer at QB for the Jets. 

There would have been calls for Saleh's head had that happened. We got the Bengals at the right time during a slump apparently

[thebuzzardman]

1 hour ago, Zachtomims47 said:

You don't like yum yum sauce with your football? 

Sounds like a term from some cheesy asian 80's VHS porno

[Drums]

7 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I suppose we will find out what he actually learned at the end of this season. 

True, might as well start with the negative just to be safe. 

[JohnnyLV]

6 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Entirely possible, I could be mistaken about when he was announced the starter, but I remember Wilson getting the first reps almost from the start. 

He was listed #1 on the Depth chart on August 9th and then officially named the starter on Aug 25th but he had was getting 100% of the #1 snaps from like Week 2 on so not sure how meaningful it was.

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Wilson got similar treatment but had weaker competition. I don't remember when he was named starter but it wasn't until after training camp began. You can pull up articles with Saleh quotes where he's avoiding naming him starter. I think most people assumed he would start, but most people probably assume Sauce is starting week 1 too.

Wilson took all of the first-team snaps from the second he showed up at Florham Park. Interesting side note: he sucked less in his first team practice than he did today.

 

https://nypost.com/2021/07/30/zach-wilsons-first-practice-with-jets-a-rough-one/

“His first practice was a rough one, which was not a surprise considering it was his first time facing a defense in six weeks. Wilson completed 5-of-10 passes in team drills with one interception. There were some passes that sailed high and some that were behind receivers. The Jets gave him all of the first-team reps and even a few with the second team as he tries to catch up after missed time.”

[Bruce Harper]

1 hour ago, thebuzzardman said:

He need to make the team, and make a tackle from behind. 

Wildgoose chases down the receiver!

On a wild goose chase. 

[CanadienJetsFan]

Before, I used to care who did what during such practices.

Now, I only want to know who’s hurt.

[56mehl56]

4 hours ago, maury77 said:

I know I'm going toi get downvotes for this,  but why does Gardner "have to earn it" when Zach Wilson was handed the starting job last year right out the gate?

I've said it repeatedly last year and I'll say it again now. It made 100% sense to start Wilson because in essence the whole offense was learning a new offense under a new CS. They all got to grow and learn valuable experience which will be a springboard to this season. Starting a vet in this scenario made absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

[freestater]

2 hours ago, Lith said:

 

*most of* the Jets lineman. 

Baby soft, lazy busts not included. 

[munchmemory]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

Well, @TomShane was taking a dump and @munchmemory was taking bong rips so, you know, duty calls sometimes. 

Please.  Indulging in edibles.

[Spoot-Face]

3 hours ago, Lith said:

 

@T0mShane rn:

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Spoot-Face said:

@T0mShane rn:

Mike White running with the third team while Zach Wilson and his thicc legs is struggling to complete basic passes in practice against the #32 ranked defense (30th against the pass) is very Jetsy. 

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I agree up to a point. A rookie is learning so much so early that the veteran should be vastly outplaying him. If it's in the same general ballpark I'd go with the rookie (provided it's not because both the rookie and veteran look equally clueless).

"Same general ballpark" I read as "basically equal".

Tie goes to the rookie?  I could understand that, yes.

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The objection imo isn't so much that Wilson started over White, since White had no (non-preseason) live action himself at that point, was just as new as Wilson in the system, and he needed all of August to beat out Morgan ffs.

The objection was in not having a serious veteran in there outright. They didn't give it to Wilson over a veteran; it's that there was no veteran in the first place, so there was no one for him to beat. Whatever White ultimately did in his initial stint, clearly no one on the team thought he had that in him when they decided to sign no one else for the summer. 

Agreed.  White is irrelevant, his moment in the sun nonwithstanding.

Wilson clearly wasn't ready Day 1.  And we had no other plan.  White was not a plan, as you say, the team clearly thought very little of him (and still does IMO).

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm more of a let him get his lumps in type, so long as he isn't developing - and then further, reinforcing - bad habits borne of panic; outside of that (and a fluke injury, I guess) the "ruining" aspect is preposterously overblown. What's done is done, but it's a legit criticism that they purposely didn't have any other NFL QB on the roster.

I'm not.  I'm old school "earn your starting job" type.  I also believe sitting and learning and getting a handle on the speed of the pro game isn't a fatal sin, as some seem to think.  I also think "but the fans will demand him" is 100% irrelevant.  Only a pathetically weak Coach/Owner gives in to that.

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It was made that much worse with Knapp's untimely passing, but once that happened they needed to get a serious veteran in much sooner. FFS they didn't even replace Knapp with Cavanaugh until after Wilson's last live preseason action was behind them. With a rookie QB - plus a first-time OC and so many other first-time coaches on the staff under him - imo that was a worse crime than not having this Bryce Hall level competition to overcome. 

I agree, as usual.

[munchmemory]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Mike White running with the third team while Zach Wilson and his thicc legs is struggling to complete basic passes in practice against the #32 ranked defense (30th against the pass) is very Jetsy. 

In anticipation of Zach imploding again this season, I just put in an order for a new, massive, monitor.  I want to read every word...See the myriad gifs/memes...as big as possible when this place goes ballistic. 

[T0mShane]

Just now, munchmemory said:

In anticipation of Zach imploding again this season, I just put in an order for a new, massive, monitor.  I want to read every word...See the myriad gifs/memes...as big as possible when this place goes ballistic. 

Pumped to learn how Joe Flacco starting six+ games for the Jets in the year of our lord 2022 is actually the result of good process. 

[Doggin94it]

2 hours ago, maury77 said:

Wilson didn't fit into category 1? Agree to disagree. 

They certainly didn't think he did, and his improvement towards the end of the year seems to suggest they were right; whether or not he has the goods, nobody's going to look back on his career and say it was starting too soon that killed him.

[T0mShane]

10 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

They certainly didn't think he did, and his improvement towards the end of the year seems to suggest they were right; whether or not he has the goods, nobody's going to look back on his career and say it was starting too soon that killed him.

The risk in starting an unprepared Zach isn’t that it’ll hurt Zach, it’s that it’ll hurt Saleh. Players obviously want to win, and if they’re playing with a QB who can’t help them do that—and for the most part was the A-1 deterrent to competing in games—players start to learn that winning isn’t the priority for said coach. 

[Sperm Edwards]

32 minutes ago, Warfish said:

"Same general ballpark" I read as "basically equal".

Tie goes to the rookie?  I could understand that, yes.

Agreed.  White is irrelevant, his moment in the sun nonwithstanding.

Wilson clearly wasn't ready Day 1.  And we had no other plan.  White was not a plan, as you say, the team clearly thought very little of him (and still does IMO).

I'm not.  I'm old school "earn your starting job" type.  I also believe sitting and learning and getting a handle on the speed of the pro game isn't a fatal sin, as some seem to think.  I also think "but the fans will demand him" is 100% irrelevant.  Only a pathetically weak Coach/Owner gives in to that.

I agree, as usual.

I get where you're coming from, but when you take a QB at #2 the cat is out of the bag already. He IS the new QB unless he's Josh Rosen out of the gate and never gets any better at all. There's no great mystery that he's going to see the field, especially on a stripped-down roster in early rebuild stages, and some temporary bull***t competition with the Bryce Hall of QBs isn't going to get people inside or outside the organization thinking, "Hm, well maybe they'll never play him."

Plus even as I am (and was) in favor of it, the competition probably would've been useless in this case in terms of who's the week 1 starter, with the benefit of hindsight, since Wilson actually looked really good in preseason. His problems surfaced once preseason ended and the games/plays actually counted. However as much as the mentor thing is also overblown, a veteran would've been of help for him in August & beyond, seeing how he had no QBC for his rookie preseason TC/games. 

It's not at all about what the fans demand; that's not my argument at all & has never been part of it. I think to a degree they need to learn by doing (the prerequisite being a grounded base, like knowing the playbook & not having clown-like footwork). Beyond that I'd revert to Doggin94's logic where he could sit in favor of a temporary veteran if the team could actually go somewhere with the team's veteran QB or if the rookie is just so impossibly bad that he's not getting experience at all he's just picking up bad habits and/or reinforcing them. Also if he's just a young, arrogant douche who needs to eat several slices of humble pie with some turd a la mode.

I still would've gotten a serious other QB option in here last year. In truth, I would've done it this year, too. I don't think Flacco is as bad as some think for a short stint, but it's not realistic that they'd hand him the reins for 12-14 (or more) games if Wilson hasn't massively improved, so I'd have gone with a more realistic option. But that's me & no one's hiring me to be the GM anyway, so there you go lol. 

[JohnnyLV]

24 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

In anticipation of Zach imploding again this season, I just put in an order for a new, massive, monitor.  I want to read every word...See the myriad gifs/memes...as big as possible when this place goes ballistic. 

48" LG OLED TV is only way to go

[Sperm Edwards]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The risk in starting an unprepared Zach isn’t that it’ll hurt Zach, it’s that it’ll hurt Saleh. Players obviously want to win, and if they’re playing with a QB who can’t help them do that—and for the most part was the A-1 deterrent to competing in games—players start to learn that winning isn’t the priority for said coach. 

I think the ruination aspect is one of the more tiring ideas fans throw around. They see him in practice. If he just shits his pants and then curls up into fetal position all soiled up, they're not going to put him out there anyway. This same staff kept Mims off the field even when they were light on healthy WRs and, unlike QB, that's a position where an extra man can just be out there as a decoy. 

The last part is also a big meh imo. It's not lost on the players that rookie QBs commonly struggle in their first live action. The right players will say to each other it's their job to pick him up initially, just like other rookies who took time to get used to things (Moore, AVT, etc.).

Where it gets messy is when the team is otherwise playoffs-worthy, but the 2021 Jets didn't qualify on paper on August 1st. That was even less a thing once some of their few above-average, veteran starters were spending more time on the sideline (if not IR) than on the field.

No one in that locker room was seriously thinking, "If not for Wilson we'd be contenders right now." They were all aware this was a team still in early rebuild stages, who'd just taken a QB #2 overall.

Those inexperience-lumps are tolerated a lot less a year later when the roster looks a lot more complete in year 2. 

[munchmemory]

3 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

48" LG OLED TV is only way to go

I want to feel the virtual spittle from all the vitriol. in high def.  lol

[Claymation]

 

[Spoot-Face]

4 hours ago, Lith said:

 

Footage of that play:

[Spoot-Face]

3 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

The only tweet that matters today. Let’s go

[The Crusher]

44 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Pumped to learn how Joe Flacco starting six+ games for the Jets in the year of our lord 2022 is actually the result of good process. 

I think with the upgrades of the roster Flacco is ready to take the Jets on a Superbowl run. 

[The Crusher]

5 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said:

DJ has a middle school aged child who he wants to think he is cool?

[Spoot-Face]

2 hours ago, thebuzzardman said:

Sounds like a term from some cheesy asian 80's VHS porno

Sounds like an investigative job for @Jetsfan80

[Spoot-Face]

59 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Mike White running with the third team while Zach Wilson and his thicc legs is struggling to complete basic passes in practice against the #32 ranked defense (30th against the pass) is very Jetsy.