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OTA Updates. Wednesday June 1


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7 minutes ago, slats said:

It works both ways. Guys like Garropolo, Cousins, Alex Smith, who put up really pretty numbers but can never get you over the hump vs. guys like Favre and Eli with genuine flaws in their games, but could still net you a championship or two. I want to see the production, you know this, but I’m not gonna get hung up on TD:int ratios in the meantime. 

Rationalize it however you wish, the reality is you have no choice but to "not get hung up on TD:INT ratios" because even a casual glance at that from last year shows the guy we all hope for was total and complete trash.  i.e. NOT a franchise QB in any way in his first year, and not close to any of the recent franchise QB's drafted in the first round.

Like I said, fans of legit franchise QB's don't have to post stuff like the above.  Because legit franchise QB's don't have issues with their TD:INT ratio.

7 minutes ago, slats said:

Last year, most of the “excuses” were completely valid.

I don't honestly care about last year anymore, nor the endless litany of rationalizations over our worst-in-NFL QB production. 

It's unworthy of relitigating.  Valid, not valid, we were pretty much the worst in the NFL and cannot be that again.

2022 is what matters.  Getting Franchise QB-level production for our supposed Franchise QB.

And not making excuses for it if we don't get it.  

7 minutes ago, slats said:

I don’t expect big numbers because I expect the Jets to be focused on rushing the football offensively.

Convenient. 

You may also "not expect big numbers" because you lack any real faith that Zach can actually produce "big numbers".

Last I checked an effective running game helps a QB produce, it doesn't detract from it.

If we rush for 2500 yards, and Zach only throws for 3500, that's fine.

7 minutes ago, slats said:

I still want efficient play, and some splashy big plays. That’s why you take a QB #2 overall. 

You take a QB #2 overall because you believe that QB is a top-10, elite prospect who will perform to the level of a Franchise QB.

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39 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You take a QB #2 overall because you believe that QB is a top-10, elite prospect who will perform to the level of a Franchise QB.

Right, so under the assumption that none of us here can build a time machine so that we can go back and either sit him or not draft him altogether,  the path forward is to work with the kid and give him the opportunities, support and time an Eli Manning and or a Drew Brees got (Brees in the context of getting the oppertunity to develop as a player/ individual ability.) Because he got drafted for his potential to be that kind of guy. 

It looks like the Jets are currently doing that and time will tell. 

But I guess it is more fun to angst over a process that is currently developing in real time.

 

On a side note. I'm a little annoyed by one thing. Zach is a bust guys have no skin in the game tbh. If Zach busts they can flaunt their superior rationality over the ignorant fanatics. If Zach doesn't bust they can default to being a Jets fan. It's a win win and it's totally not fair. 

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14 minutes ago, slats said:

I have no idea why you’re typing to me like this. We’re basically agreeing, and you seem to want to fight.

Not fight, no.  

What I want won't happen.  And that is for folks to stop doing one thing:

1. Starting 2022 with massively diminished pre-emptive-excuse-ridden diminished expectations for our supposed Franchise QB.

He either is a Franchise QB, and will produce as one, or he isn't.  There is no excuse that will change this fundamental issue.

If we're looking at 2,500 yards and a 15:12 TD:INT ratio at the end of 2022, there is no amount of "looking to rush" answers that will make such production anything less than a massive disappointment.

14 minutes ago, slats said:

What’s convenient? I’m looking at the team they’re putting together and I can see that they’re clearly looking to rush the football.

I'll repeat myself:  You may also "not expect big numbers" because you (and others) may lack any real faith that Zach can actually produce "big numbers".

Ryan Tannehill had no problem whatsoever putting up 3,800 yards and a 33-7 TD:INT ratio with a totally run-first offense and a WR group in part led by our very own Davis. Some might say that having a successful running game helped Tannehill's production, it didn't harm it.

And people here have said Tannehill sucks more times than I can count here at JN.  So if a guy who sucks can do it... 

"Looking to rush" is simply not a reason nor an excuse for low-levels of QB production.

14 minutes ago, slats said:

All I’m saying is that gaudy numbers are not required. What he needs is to be consistently good, and able to make the big play when it matters. Sorry you find this line of thinking to be so offensive. 

A QB who is "consistently good", making good decisions and "making big plays" will produce quality production numbers.

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10 minutes ago, slats said:

Russell Wilson played in two Super Bowls before he ever broke 3500 yards or 30 TDs. Was he a franchise QB back then? All I’m saying is that gaudy numbers are not required. What he needs is to be consistently good, and able to make the big play when it matters. Sorry you find this line of thinking to be so offensive. 

Stop living in the past old man. We are only allowed a 5 year window to discuss important matters. 

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3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Not fight, no.  

What I want won't happen.  And that is for folks to stop doing one thing:

1. Starting 2022 with massively diminished pre-emptive-excuse-ridden diminished expectations for our supposed Franchise QB.

He either is a Franchise QB, and will produce as one, or he isn't.  There is no excuse that will change this fundamental issue.

If we're looking at 2,500 yards and a 15:12 TD:INT ratio at the end of 2022, there is no amount of "looking to rush" answers that will make such production anything less than a massive disappointment.

I'll repeat myself:  You may also "not expect big numbers" because you (and others) may lack any real faith that Zach can actually produce "big numbers".

Ryan Tannehill had no problem whatsoever putting up 3,800 yards and a 33-7 TD:INT ratio with a totally run-first offense and a WR group in part led by our very own Davis. Some might say that having a successful running game helped Tannehill's production, it didn't harm it.

And people here have said Tannehill sucks more times than I can count here at JN.  So if a guy who sucks can do it... 

"Looking to rush" is simply not a reason nor an excuse for low-levels of QB production.

A QB who is "consistently good", making good decisions and "making big plays" will produce quality production numbers.

Lol, you’re feisty today. Good to see you back to full strength curmudgeon. 
 
I find myself unable to split the hairs any finer at this time. 

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@slats isn't even saying that he doesn't expect improvement - just that it is tough to gauge numbers when they are going to want to run. 

First year TD:INT ratio of current "franchise QBs" include: Lawrence 12:17, Josh Allen 10:12, and Matt Stafford 13:20. Kirk Cousins was 18:19 through his first 3 seasons (9 starts).

Do people honestly believe the board wouldn't be trying to justify those dudes with dropped pass percentages? 

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28 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

@slats isn't even saying that he doesn't expect improvement - just that it is tough to gauge numbers when they are going to want to run. 

First year TD:INT ratio of current "franchise QBs" include: Lawrence 12:17, Josh Allen 10:12, and Matt Stafford 13:20. Kirk Cousins was 18:19 through his first 3 seasons (9 starts).

Do people honestly believe the board wouldn't be trying to justify those dudes with dropped pass percentages? 

Lawrence is not a Franchise QB yet either, he's clearly still TBD.

Allen is an odd exception to the rule for recent Franchise QB's, with how much running he does (and does well) and how long it took him to pass well.

Cousins wasn't a starter for any of his first three years, and Stafford was drafted ages ago now.

Let me give you an actual list of actual recently drafted Franchise QB's and Near-Franchise QB's, and their second year performances. 

This is a good baseline for what Franchise QB's produce in the NFL:

Joe Burrow Year 2 - 16 Starts, 70.4% Comp Rate. 288.2 Passing YPG.  34-14 TD-INT.

Tua Tags Year 2 - 12 Starts, 67.8% Comp Rate, 204.1 Passing YPG, 16-10 TD-INT.

Justin Herbert Year 2 - 17 Starts, 65.9% Comp Rate, 294.9 Passing YPG, 38-15 TD-INT.

Kyler Murray Year 2 - 16 Starts, 64.4% Comp Rate, 248.2 Passing YPG, 26-12 TD-INT.

Josh Allen Year 2 - 16 Starts, 58.8% Comp Rate, 193.1 Passing YPG, 20-9 TD-INT.

Lamar Jackson Year 2 - 15 Starts, 66.1% Comp Rate, 208.5 Passing YPG, 36-9 TD-INT.

Patrick Mahomes Year 2 - 16 Starts, 66.0% Comp Rate, 318.6 Passing YPG, 50-12 TD-INT.

Deshaun Watson Year 2 - 16 Starts, 68.3% Comp Rate, 260.3 Passing YPG, 26-9 TD-INT.

Jared Goff Year 2 - 15 Starts, 62.1% Comp Rate, 253.6 Passing YPG, 28-7 TD-INT.

Carson Wentz Year 2 - 13 Starts, 60.2% Comp Rate, 253.5 Passing YPG, 33-7 TD-INT.

So if Zach is in fact a Franchise QB, why should we not expect him to put up similar numbers?

It seems to be a recurring theme that folks here think Zach is an amazing, special, elite, franchise QB prospect that is above criticism......that we simply cannot expect to produce at all anywhere close to what other franchise QB's produce. 

Because "we're planning to rush the ball".  

 

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35 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Lawrence is not a Franchise QB yet either, he's clearly still TBD.

Allen is an odd exception to the rule for recent Franchise QB's, with how much running he does (and does well) and how long it took him to pass well.

Cousins wasn't a starter for any of his first three years, and Stafford was drafted ages ago now.

Let me give you an actual list of actual recently drafted Franchise QB's and Near-Franchise QB's, and their second year performances. 

This is a good baseline for what Franchise QB's produce in the NFL:

Joe Burrow Year 2 - 16 Starts, 70.4% Comp Rate. 288.2 Passing YPG.  34-14 TD-INT.

Tua Tags Year 2 - 12 Starts, 67.8% Comp Rate, 204.1 Passing YPG, 16-10 TD-INT.

Justin Herbert Year 2 - 17 Starts, 65.9% Comp Rate, 294.9 Passing YPG, 38-15 TD-INT.

Kyler Murray Year 2 - 16 Starts, 64.4% Comp Rate, 248.2 Passing YPG, 26-12 TD-INT.

Josh Allen Year 2 - 16 Starts, 58.8% Comp Rate, 193.1 Passing YPG, 20-9 TD-INT.

Lamar Jackson Year 2 - 15 Starts, 66.1% Comp Rate, 208.5 Passing YPG, 36-9 TD-INT.

Patrick Mahomes Year 2 - 16 Starts, 66.0% Comp Rate, 318.6 Passing YPG, 50-12 TD-INT.

Deshaun Watson Year 2 - 16 Starts, 68.3% Comp Rate, 260.3 Passing YPG, 26-9 TD-INT.

Jared Goff Year 2 - 15 Starts, 62.1% Comp Rate, 253.6 Passing YPG, 28-7 TD-INT.

Carson Wentz Year 2 - 13 Starts, 60.2% Comp Rate, 253.5 Passing YPG, 33-7 TD-INT.

So if Zach is in fact a Franchise QB, why should we not expect him to put up similar numbers?

It seems to be a recurring theme that folks here think Zach is an amazing, special, elite, franchise QB prospect that is above criticism......that we simply cannot expect to produce at all anywhere close to what other franchise QB's produce. 

Because "we're planning to rush the ball".  

 

Like slats, I find your response strange.  You'll have to spend a lot of time looking to find any post where you find me calling Wilson an amazing, special, elite, franchise QB prospect that is above all criticism.  I have certainly been more against than for.  Personally, I find the very term "franchise"  QB to be overused and frankly, distasteful.  To me, a franchise QB is the kind that you absolutely can't do without.  They kind where the team goes 2-14 without him and 14-2 with.  

Will he be good, or not?  That is all I care about.  You listed Tua there?  I'd probably take Wilson over Tua right now.  I think expecting him to perform like Tua or a year 2 Allen is a good floor.  I can see complaining if he doesn't reach that level.  OTOH, I don't think we should be surprised that he doesn't put up numbers like Mahomes, or Murray who is running the ******* Air Raid.  

 

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4 hours ago, slats said:

It works both ways. Guys like Garropolo, Cousins, Alex Smith, who put up really pretty numbers but can never get you over the hump vs. guys like Favre and Eli with genuine flaws in their games, but could still net you a championship or two. I want to see the production, you know this, but I’m not gonna get hung up on TD:int ratios in the meantime. 
 
Last year, most of the “excuses” were completely valid. Rookie coaches, new system installed for everyone, Knapp’s passing, no vet QB in the room or able to start the season, the lack of talent to begin with, and then the injuries. They’ve taken care of as many of those issues as they could this offseason, and Zach appears to’ve put in the work, too, so excuses aren’t going to be as much of a thing this year. Which is what I’ve been screaming for for the last few drafted QBs here. 
 
I don’t expect big numbers because I expect the Jets to be focused on rushing the football offensively. I still want efficient play, and some splashy big plays. That’s why you take a QB #2 overall. 

Rushing the football as an overarching philosophy is a recipe for Zach failure.

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43 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Yes, that is how almost every team would handle it, but that does not make it the right handling methodology.

I do not, and likely never will, agree with the "f' it, just play him, who cares if he sucks or isn't ready" mindset.

That mindset has cost our Franchise several years of wasted seasons, because we had no plan other than "f' it!"

First, it would be good if we (the Jets) could finally draft a QB who actually IS elite early on, and doesn't need all the excuse making and hopium that say, Darnold required after year 1, and Zach has required after year 1.  Some rookies actually ARE pretty great as soon as they see playing time.  One day I hope we draft one of them.

But since we haven't, then their slot means bupkis to me.  Earn.  Your.  Job.  Our failure as a franchise to hold that ethic close to our hearts is, IMO, part of why we fail so regularly.

Did he tho?  Or was he just hyped.  I think I know what I think the truth of that glorious camp campaign really was....

Zach rather clearly wasn't ready for the NFL game.  Even by year's end, I would not have described him as 'ready to start in the NFL'.  As some of us noted at the time, BYU's opposition was kindergarten-level compared to the NFL.  He was making a massive leap.  And he wasn't ready.

The best thing for him, IMO, would have been to sit behind a capable veteran and learn for a year.  The last best QB we had did exactly that (Chad).  Every QB since has been rushed in, and busted.

Hopefully Zach, starting in year 2, breaks that long-running trend.

We'll never know where the 2021 team could/would have gone with a capable Vet, because we never have a capable Vet.

We have rookies (Sanchez, Geno, Darnold, Zach).  And we pair them with broken down old check-cashing oldsters (Flacco, Fitz, McCown).

The Jets have simply never tried signing an actual, capable Veteran QB to play here, with or without a rookie/drafted/young QB behind them.

Vinny was ancient when he got here, and he's the best Vet we had apart from Fitz's one year of lolglory.

Nope, it's always the same.  Broken old men.  Or busty kids.

Flacco is horrible, the epitome of 'just cashing checks". 

He is 2-11 since leaving Baltimore for a reason.

It is what it is.  I just hope for once my usual cynicism, and my doubts in the way the Jets do business with the QB position, can be proven wrong.  I really, REALLY want Zach to give me some damn hope.  And not the "hope" people saw last year, but real, actual hope because he actually produces or starts producing to an elite QB level. 

Except Wilson looked fine his rookie summer. You're the one who's always championing stats instead of the purported wishy-washy foolishness of the eye test. Well, in addition to this "hype": his only couple preseason games of live action, he'd completed 75% of his passes for a QB rating of 138 without taking a sack as his average time to throw was a pretty quick 2.6 seconds. There weren't any picks or even dropped interception-worthy passes. Further, his 2nd game was better than his first: exactly what you'd want to see. 

By this measure, you wouldn't have benched him week 1.

The thought of Flacco potentially starting a dozen or more games certainly doesn't give me a stiffy, and I've already said I'd have brought in someone else instead, but the team record with him stuff is not at all compelling. It's a team sport, not just the QB against whomever. If that was the team's record and he threw 3 TDs to 11 picks over that span, then there's a far more reasonable cause & effect.

Also while you won't find any Flacco jerseys in my closet, even as a has-been you'd be hard-pressed to name 10 clearly-better, proven-better QB2s in the league. The number's probably closer to 5 if you look at every team's QB2. And as far as any close calls, while I don't really subscribe to the whole "mentor" requirement, it's also ignorant to suggest on the sideline, practice, and film room, that a veteran QB2 is of no more help to a young starter than some other young starter would be. 

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1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

By this measure, you wouldn't have benched him week 1.

I wouldn't have drafted him.

I wouldn't have had him anointed starter before he arrived at our facility.

And I wouldn't have had him be competition-free when he did arrive.

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The thought of Flacco potentially starting a dozen or more games certainly doesn't give me a stiffy

Dear lord no.  

Speaking of things I wouldn't have done, I wouldn't have signed Flacco.  At all.  Ever.

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

, and I've already said I'd have brought in someone else instead, but the team record with him stuff is not at all compelling. It's a team sport, not just the QB against whomever. If that was the team's record and he threw 3 TDs to 11 picks over that span, then there's a far more reasonable cause & effect.

Well, I can't make you be compelled by a guy who does nothing but lose, but it's the "teams fault".  

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Also while you won't find any Flacco jerseys in my closet, even as a has-been you'd be hard-pressed to name 10 clearly-better, proven-better QB2s in the league. The number's probably closer to 5 if you look at every team's QB2. And as far as any close calls, while I don't really subscribe to the whole "mentor" requirement, it's also ignorant to suggest on the sideline, practice, and film room, that a veteran QB2 is of no more help to a young starter than some other young starter would be. 

Turnabout is fair play, and I am not compelled by the "top 5 #2" who can at best go 2-11 in that role.

I'm pretty sure I could find someone else who could do that well or better.

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5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I wouldn't have drafted him.

I wouldn't have had him anointed starter before he arrived at our facility.

This is the core of all you arguments.  
 

The rest are just that thing we do to justify our decisions with logic after the fact.  
 

(We all do this - it’s how our minds work) 

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7 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

This is the core of all you arguments.  

I'm sad to say I don't think you're really reading my arguments if that is what you think.

7 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

The rest are just that thing we do to justify our decisions with logic after the fact.  

I don't want my opinion on a draft prospect a year plus ago to be justified.

I want my favorite teams #2 overall draft pick franchise QB prospect.....to produce like a Franchise QB.

I hope this clarifies for you what my highest hopes are on this issue.

Winning > Almost Everything, including E-Pride over Football Opinions, lol. 

P.S. Keep in mind which of the two of us only roots for the Jets because of Zach, and which of us has bled Jets green for 45+ years regardless of who the QB is.  The one whose been through thick and thin for 45 years isn't the one who has to justify their fandom, lol.

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I wouldn't have drafted him.

I wouldn't have had him anointed starter before he arrived at our facility.

And I wouldn't have had him be competition-free when he did arrive.

Dear lord no.  

Speaking of things I wouldn't have done, I wouldn't have signed Flacco.  At all.  Ever.

Well, I can't make you be compelled by a guy who does nothing but lose, but it's the "teams fault".  

Turnabout is fair play, and I am not compelled by the "top 5 #2" who can at best go 2-11 in that role.

I'm pretty sure I could find someone else who could do that well or better.

Announcements and competition aside, if the #2 pick in the country has back to back really good preseason games, then there aren't many coaches that'd bench him unless the team is an obvious contender and last year's still-good, incumbent starter is still on the roster. Neither scenario existed on the 2021 Jets whether the QB2 that summer was a White/Morgan winner - foolish, I agree - or if they'd signed someone else proven. I doubt I'd have rushed to start him either, but easy for me to say when I'm not in that position. As a fan my reasoning was he was not merely a rookie, but a rookie playing alongside a zillion other rookies who were all being coached by rookie coaches, and however tragic the fact is he had no QBC until he was shut down for the rest of the preseason at the end of August.

And sorry, but the records of bad teams is ridiculous, and frankly, beneath you. He can "at best go 2-11 in that role"? That's about as valid as saying Brees was a loser & typically a bad QB because the Saints went 7-9 like 4x in a 5 year span, or Geno Smith was on par with Roethlisberger in 2013 because their teams had the same record. Going 2-11 over that span doesn't therefore mean all teams good and bad would go 2-11 if the constant was Flacco at QB. It's just nonsensical.

A QB is responsible for his own play; not the play of the defense, the WRs drops, the bad coaching, and the overall lousy rosters he played on. How you square that circle with a "that's all he's capable of" in all situations, because those were the results under those specific circumstances, is a you-do-you thing. Lol as though it makes him any better or worse of a QB if the team lost his last 3 in a row when the D is giving up 30 ppg but with the same offense would've been 2-1 or 3-0 if the D averaged in the low 20s ppg surrendered with some turnovers over that same span. 

Anytime you want you can furnish us with a long list of QB2s who'd have been so wonderful over that span. I can count about 5 reasonable upgrades. Most weren't available the last 12 months, and only maybe two - Bridgewater & Trubisky - were available this offseason, and it's debatable the latter would've come here instead of getting handed the inside track on the starting job in Pittsburgh (ditto Mariota in Atl). I wouldn't have surrendered a 1st or 2nd round pick for a $20-30MM/yr QB (Garoppolo, Wentz, or Mayfield) just for a little summer competition. 

Go look at the depth charts for every team. There just aren't many good QB2s in the league, let alone available this particular offseason. There weren't no better options, but the list is pretty short. 

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On 6/1/2022 at 1:36 PM, Warfish said:

Then he shouldn't start.  When he can beat out the Veteran, he should start.

LOL, you really think rookie QBs start because they're the best QB on the roster?  You think they replace vets who start because their teams think they would win more games?  

Theyre playing to develop, not to win games.  

And lets not make it sound like Zach didnt play well enough to start and wouldnt have if a vet was on the team

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On 6/1/2022 at 9:51 AM, #27TheDominator said:

1.  Gardner has to earn his starting spot?  DJ Reed is handed a starting role. 

2. Rob Calabrese was presumably offered an OC opportunity with Kentucky under Stoops.  Probably not a bad spot.  Mike Leach, and Lincoln Riley had that position and moved up.  I'm sure there were others, 

DJ Reed has pro reps and has proven what he is as an NFL CB  Sauce has to earn it, just like any other rookie. Make no mistake on opening say Sauce and Reed will be the LCB RCB Carter and Guidry will battle for slot . We have a lot of good young corners who could emerge for once we have the wonderful problem of outstanding depth at the position and some may even be moved to FS

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5 hours ago, Warfish said:

 

He either is a Franchise QB, and will produce as one, or he isn't.  There is no excuse that will change this fundamental issue.

 

In reality, Zach should be on the clock.  There is NO excuses now.  You have four quality receivers in Wilson, Moore, Berrios, and Davis.  There is talk that Mims might look the part now.  You have Carter and Hall in the backfield, and Coleman to mop up.  We have THREE valid TE's.  There is NO room for excuse.  He doesn't execute this year, he is probably not what we hoped he is.  

That said, what you have done though is create a team where another rookie could be drafted and NOT have excuses from the get-go.  

We shall see. 

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15 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

In reality, Zach should be on the clock.  There is NO excuses now.  You have four quality receivers in Wilson, Moore, Berrios, and Davis.  There is talk that Mims might look the part now.  You have Carter and Hall in the backfield, and Coleman to mop up.  We have THREE valid TE's.  There is NO room for excuse.  He doesn't execute this year, he is probably not what we hoped he is.  

That said, what you have done though is create a team where another rookie could be drafted and NOT have excuses from the get-go.  

We shall see. 

He has been on the clock since he was drafted.  

Expectations change and raise over time.

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5 hours ago, Warfish said:

Lawrence is not a Franchise QB yet either, he's clearly still TBD.

Allen is an odd exception to the rule for recent Franchise QB's, with how much running he does (and does well) and how long it took him to pass well.

Cousins wasn't a starter for any of his first three years, and Stafford was drafted ages ago now.

Let me give you an actual list of actual recently drafted Franchise QB's and Near-Franchise QB's, and their second year performances. 

This is a good baseline for what Franchise QB's produce in the NFL:

Joe Burrow Year 2 - 16 Starts, 70.4% Comp Rate. 288.2 Passing YPG.  34-14 TD-INT.

Tua Tags Year 2 - 12 Starts, 67.8% Comp Rate, 204.1 Passing YPG, 16-10 TD-INT.

Justin Herbert Year 2 - 17 Starts, 65.9% Comp Rate, 294.9 Passing YPG, 38-15 TD-INT.

Kyler Murray Year 2 - 16 Starts, 64.4% Comp Rate, 248.2 Passing YPG, 26-12 TD-INT.

Josh Allen Year 2 - 16 Starts, 58.8% Comp Rate, 193.1 Passing YPG, 20-9 TD-INT.

Lamar Jackson Year 2 - 15 Starts, 66.1% Comp Rate, 208.5 Passing YPG, 36-9 TD-INT.

Patrick Mahomes Year 2 - 16 Starts, 66.0% Comp Rate, 318.6 Passing YPG, 50-12 TD-INT.

Deshaun Watson Year 2 - 16 Starts, 68.3% Comp Rate, 260.3 Passing YPG, 26-9 TD-INT.

Jared Goff Year 2 - 15 Starts, 62.1% Comp Rate, 253.6 Passing YPG, 28-7 TD-INT.

Carson Wentz Year 2 - 13 Starts, 60.2% Comp Rate, 253.5 Passing YPG, 33-7 TD-INT.

So if Zach is in fact a Franchise QB, why should we not expect him to put up similar numbers?

It seems to be a recurring theme that folks here think Zach is an amazing, special, elite, franchise QB prospect that is above criticism......that we simply cannot expect to produce at all anywhere close to what other franchise QB's produce. 

Because "we're planning to rush the ball".  

 

because ... saleh

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54 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

He has been on the clock since he was drafted.  

Expectations change and raise over time.

He was given a LONG leash in his first season, and rightfully so.

But the whole rookie staff, rookie teammates, lack of talent.....its all gone.  There is enough talent on this offense to put up 20-30 points a game.  If we are scoring at our regular 10-15, that will be very telling.

 

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1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

He was given a LONG leash in his first season, and rightfully so.

But the whole rookie staff, rookie teammates, lack of talent.....its all gone.  There is enough talent on this offense to put up 20-30 points a game.  If we are scoring at our regular 10-15, that will be very telling.

 

It’s more data.  We don’t know what we think we know though.  
 

offense:

Proven: 2 TEs are good.  Carter is a good RB.  LG Is great. 

The rest is potential we as fans are banking on and taking for granted.   

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13 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Go look at the depth charts for every team. There just aren't many good QB2s in the league, let alone available this particular offseason. There weren't no better options, but the list is pretty short. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Joe "Cashin' a Check" Flacco.  If you're happy with him, great.

Hopefully, I think we'll both agree, we never, ever, in any way see him on the field in 2022, because Zach stays healthy, and plays well.

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12 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

That said, what you have done though is create a team where another rookie could be drafted and NOT have excuses from the get-go.  

An important point.

Darnold had piss all, and it clearly effected him.

Zach, in year 2 and 3, has no such excuse.

And if Zach fails, whomever we draft next, presumably will be in a much better spot support-wise than Darnold or Year 1 Zach.

Build the team to support whomever is QB.

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10 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

It’s more data.  We don’t know what we think we know though.  
 

offense:

Proven: 2 TEs are good.  Carter is a good RB.  LG Is great. 

The rest is potential we as fans are banking on and taking for granted.   

Correct.  BUT....There is enough talent around him now that, as a true franchise QB, Zach should elevate others around him.  He has a base of talent, and a LOT of potential talent around him.  If he doesn't start elevating others, we would see that Zach needs a WHOLE bunch of elevating.  If your franchise QB needs a WHOLE bunch of elevating, then you do not have a true franchise QB.

 

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Not sure why Hughes is invested in making excuses — “rusty (as expected)” — for Wilson here.

I mean all we heard about during the offseason was about how he was flying across the country repping throws with his WRs.

• Zach Wilson looked (as expected) rusty during his eight passes in those 11-on-11 drills. He missed Davis and Moore badly on his first two passes, then overthrew Berrios on a scramble drill. Rookie Garrett Wilson slipped on an out route, which is likely why Wilson’s next pass sailed wide to him. He finally connected on a 5-yard out to Moore, who beat corner D.J. Reed. Wilson was much better on his next set of passes, finding Moore and Berrios on intermediate routes. He then overshot Davis on a streak. Wilson finished practice 3-of-8 passing.

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7 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Not sure why Hughes is invested in making excuses — “rusty (as expected)” — for Wilson here.

I mean all we heard about during the offseason was about how he was flying across the country repping throws with his WRs.

• Zach Wilson looked (as expected) rusty during his eight passes in those 11-on-11 drills. He missed Davis and Moore badly on his first two passes, then overthrew Berrios on a scramble drill. Rookie Garrett Wilson slipped on an out route, which is likely why Wilson’s next pass sailed wide to him. He finally connected on a 5-yard out to Moore, who beat corner D.J. Reed. Wilson was much better on his next set of passes, finding Moore and Berrios on intermediate routes. He then overshot Davis on a streak. Wilson finished practice 3-of-8 passing.

He's trying to keep Jet fans at bay. I get it, it's only OTA's. Basically saying "Don't over react to what I'm about to tell you..."

Also, getting those reps with the WRs is kind of overrated. It's cool and all but they're just going over a few routes and throw for about an hour. Like Zach mentioned, those trips are more about the bonding with the guys and becoming closer with one another. 

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

An important point.

Darnold had piss all, and it clearly effected him.

Zach, in year 2 and 3, has no such excuse.

And if Zach fails, whomever we draft next, presumably will be in a much better spot support-wise than Darnold or Year 1 Zach.

Build the team to support whomever is QB.

I do think that the list of QB's in their second years that you posted above kind of supports the idea that very few QB's can elevate surrounding talent in a meaningful way. Wilson's stats are part Wilson, and part what kinds of returns they're able to get from the Garrett Wilson pick, Moore, the new tight ends, and the benefit of a better running game. At least that's my perception looking at the year two stats from Goff and Wentz. 

Best case for the Jets is that the recent trove of draft picks is full of hits and that includes Zach Wilson. Next best is Wilson hits, others are a mixed bag. Beyond that, I think there's a non-trivial case positive that the other picks are good enough to piece together a strong team while he's on his rookie deal and he's league average-ish but puts up good numbers a-la Goff and Wentz. If that all happens you hope they're able to pivot effectively while holding things together like the Rams instead of ending up in purgatory for a while like the Eagles.

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18 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Not sure why Hughes is invested in making excuses — “rusty (as expected)” — for Wilson here.

I mean all we heard about during the offseason was about how he was flying across the country repping throws with his WRs.

• Zach Wilson looked (as expected) rusty during his eight passes in those 11-on-11 drills. He missed Davis and Moore badly on his first two passes, then overthrew Berrios on a scramble drill. Rookie Garrett Wilson slipped on an out route, which is likely why Wilson’s next pass sailed wide to him. He finally connected on a 5-yard out to Moore, who beat corner D.J. Reed. Wilson was much better on his next set of passes, finding Moore and Berrios on intermediate routes. He then overshot Davis on a streak. Wilson finished practice 3-of-8 passing.

Not everything is an excuse.  It’s his explanation of events in his eyes.  People fall back on the term excuse way too frequently.

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15 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

He's trying to keep Jet fans at bay. I get it, it's only OTA's. Basically saying "Don't over react to what I'm about to tell you..."

Also, getting those reps with the WRs is kind of overrated. It's cool and all but they're just going over a few routes and throw for about an hour. Like Zach mentioned, those trips are more about the bonding with the guys and becoming closer with one another. 

I mean your QB misfiring badly in t-shirt and shorts practices shouldn't be an acceptable standard, regardless of any of that.

 

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

We'll just have to agree to disagree on Joe "Cashin' a Check" Flacco.  If you're happy with him, great.

Hopefully, I think we'll both agree, we never, ever, in any way see him on the field in 2022, because Zach stays healthy, and plays well.

Yep. Good talk, and good to see you're feeling like yourself ;)

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