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Quinnen Williams reps


AFJF
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Just covered this on a pod but wanted to post this specific topic in its own thread.  I commented during Quinnen's rookie year that it was weird to see such a good player get so few reps but hoped it would change as time went on.  New coaching staff but same philosophy of keeping guys "fresh".  Looking at other top DT's and it's wild to see how often the Jets pull QW yet his production is on par with some of these guys.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, BCJet said:

I saw this mentioned quite a bit on twitter too, with Ulrich saying that no DL will play more then 35 snaps and I think its beyond ridiculous and literally hope that he misspoke on the number (especially since he said 30-35).

How can a staff justify playing all their DL the same amount if they dont all have the same level of talent?  Would they play Bryce Huff and Lawrence Taylor the same amount? Because while that analogy is exaggerated, playing Nathan Shephard, Solomon Thomas and Quinnen Williams all the same makes absolutely ZERO sense.  

Managing snaps, playing guys on the right down (run/pass), keeping players healthy are all smart things. But that means instead of QW playing 55 snaps (avg snaps per game is 65) you play him 45-50 and let shepphard spell him the other 15.  Playing your best players half the time and your backups the other half is ridiculous

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Just so there is no gray area - here are the 2 quotes Ulrich had to back up that this rule is 100% unflexible

Rich Cimini, ESPN: The 30-35 snaps, I think probably JFM (John Franklin-Myers) may have had the most last year, I’m just guessing he was probably close to 40-45. 30-35, is that ideally a hard and fast rule?


Yeah it is, regardless of what style of team you’re playing. Whether they’re run stopping or they’re jumping out of their shoes and pass rushing, there’s a level of fatigue that’s associated with how we play. We don’t catch blocks, we don’t read blocks, things are on our terms. When you play like that, when you play with your hair on fire, when you play with the energy and the strain that we demand of them, asking them to play any more than 35 snap I think is detrimental to their health and to the quality of play.

(follow up question) Would you do that no matter who you had out there? What about Aaron Donald?

That’s right. That was (Nick) Bosa). Bosa we could all say is one of the best.

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6 minutes ago, WhartonJet said:

If this is the staff’s mentality, you can’t hand Quinnen Williams $20 million per year to re-sign

Im guessing he's gonna get paid more than that, unfort. 

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47 minutes ago, BCJet said:

I saw this mentioned quite a bit on twitter too, with Ulrich saying that no DL will play more then 35 snaps and I think its beyond ridiculous and literally hope that he misspoke on the number (especially since he said 30-35).

How can a staff justify playing all their DL the same amount if they dont all have the same level of talent?  Would they play Bryce Huff and Lawrence Taylor the same amount? Because while that analogy is exaggerated, playing Nathan Shephard, Solomon Thomas and Quinnen Williams all the same makes absolutely ZERO sense.  

Managing snaps, playing guys on the right down (run/pass), keeping players healthy are all smart things. But that means instead of QW playing 55 snaps (avg snaps per game is 65) you play him 45-50 and let shepphard spell him the other 15.  Playing your best players half the time and your backups the other half is ridiculous

Or maybe williams just isn't that much better than anyone else. 

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52 minutes ago, WhartonJet said:

If this is the staff’s mentality, you can’t hand Quinnen Williams $20 million per year to re-sign

I was thinking the same thing. You cant be 8 deep on the DL if you’re paying a couple of starters top dollar. We might be able to get away with it for the next couple of years because we have a rookie QB and such a young roster. But it doesn't seem sustainable long-term.

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42 minutes ago, Ghost420 said:

Or maybe williams just isn't that much better than anyone else. 

Except his production tells us he is.

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59 minutes ago, Barton said:

Ulbrich so far is an effing disaster. I have never seen a Jets defense so clueless as last year. Not even close. 

I’m not sure we’ve seen any defense that bad as last year. 

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It looks to me like the organization is on board with this philosophy from Joe Douglas on down. They added a lot of pieces to the DL this year and get Lawson back. Copied and pasted from Ourlads: 
 
DE: 58Lawson, Carl U/Cin 47Huff, Bryce CF20 54Martin, Jacob U/Hou 55Rashed Jr., Hamilcar CF21 51Ward, Tim W/KC

DT: 95Williams, Quinnen 19/1 99CURRY, VINNY SF22 96Marshall, Jonathan 21/6

DT: 98Rankins, Sheldon U/NO 94Thomas, Solomon U/LV 97Shepherd, Nathan 18/3 79Smart, Tanzel SF20

DE: 91Franklin-Myers, John W/LAR 52Johnson, Jermaine 22/1 72Clemons, Micheal 22/4 50Anae, Bradlee SF22 92Zuniga, Jabari 20/3

That's a lot of depth. This is a defense that wants to attack on every down. I understand wanting to keep their legs fresh, and they have the players on hand to handle it. Especially at DE, where they will eventually cut players who will wind up getting significant playing time somewhere else. Trying to do that last year, with a weaker roster, was a problem. They did a good job fixing it. 
 
I also think that this is about averages over the season, and that there will absolutely be many games where a couple guys go over that magic 35 number simply out of necessity. 

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1 hour ago, WhartonJet said:

If this is the staff’s mentality, you can’t hand Quinnen Williams $20 million per year to re-sign

This is probably amongst the least of their concerns. In fact, not paying QW could easily be their preference. They have him under control for the next two years and his cap number actually drops when the fifth year option kicks in in 2023. I expected a DT in this year’s draft, it’ll likely be a priority next year. 

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4 hours ago, AFJF said:

Just covered this on a pod but wanted to post this specific topic in its own thread.  I commented during Quinnen's rookie year that it was weird to see such a good player get so few reps but hoped it would change as time went on.  New coaching staff but same philosophy of keeping guys "fresh".  Looking at other top DT's and it's wild to see how often the Jets pull QW yet his production is on par with some of these guys.

 

 

The Jets had zero chance of being competitive last year and were blown out in many games. Interior Dlineman get beat up in the trenches and have bodies that get worn down the more they play. 

Meanwhile, all of those other players listed were on playoff teams (outside of Allen who was on a 7-10 team) with reason to play their best players more. 

With all that said, why would anyone think the Jets should have played Q MORE last year? Were there times in the 4th quarter of 42-7 games where you were pounding the table for Q to be in the game to make a critical stop? Are you the guy that would be freaking out if Q tore his achilles in the 4th quarter of a meaningless game? 

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2 hours ago, GreenFish said:

What's the average number of snaps per game for a team’s defense?

Ideally about 60-65.   However, when your offense is #32, the defense will get a lot more reps.

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3 hours ago, BCJet said:

I saw this mentioned quite a bit on twitter too, with Ulrich saying that no DL will play more then 35 snaps and I think its beyond ridiculous and literally hope that he misspoke on the number (especially since he said 30-35).

How can a staff justify playing all their DL the same amount if they dont all have the same level of talent?  Would they play Bryce Huff and Lawrence Taylor the same amount? Because while that analogy is exaggerated, playing Nathan Shephard, Solomon Thomas and Quinnen Williams all the same makes absolutely ZERO sense.  

Managing snaps, playing guys on the right down (run/pass), keeping players healthy are all smart things. But that means instead of QW playing 55 snaps (avg snaps per game is 65) you play him 45-50 and let shepphard spell him the other 15.  Playing your best players half the time and your backups the other half is ridiculous

Agreed.  What is strange about this philosophy is that, Saleh didnt follow said strategy in San Fran.  I'm too lazy to go look at the game by game stats to see the percentage in which Armstead, Bosa, Buckner played over 70% but for the season, all 3 played over 75% of the snaps on the season in '19 when Saleh was the DC.  Buckner played 80% under Saleh in '18.  So you'd have to assume they all played over 70% in every game.

Now, Saleh/JD didnt draft Q. Will.  So I dont know if this strategy is an indictment of what they think of him but as AJFJ mentioned, he produces pretty well so it is a little contradictory in nature.  Feels almost do as I say, not as I do because the only other season Ulrich was a DC, was in '19 and he played Grady Jarret 78% of the overall season Defensive snaps and a quick look at his game by game, he was close to the number 15 out of 16 games, with the 1 being the last of the game of the year in a lost season.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, BCJet said:

Just so there is no gray area - here are the 2 quotes Ulrich had to back up that this rule is 100% unflexible

Rich Cimini, ESPN: The 30-35 snaps, I think probably JFM (John Franklin-Myers) may have had the most last year, I’m just guessing he was probably close to 40-45. 30-35, is that ideally a hard and fast rule?


Yeah it is, regardless of what style of team you’re playing. Whether they’re run stopping or they’re jumping out of their shoes and pass rushing, there’s a level of fatigue that’s associated with how we play. We don’t catch blocks, we don’t read blocks, things are on our terms. When you play like that, when you play with your hair on fire, when you play with the energy and the strain that we demand of them, asking them to play any more than 35 snap I think is detrimental to their health and to the quality of play.

(follow up question) Would you do that no matter who you had out there? What about Aaron Donald?

That’s right. That was (Nick) Bosa). Bosa we could all say is one of the best.

It actually sounds insane. If player A is on a Tier 1 level and player B is Tier 3, how do you give them equal snaps

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Maybe I'm quibbling with words, but Cimini asks if 30-35 snaps is ideally a hard and fast rule. Of course, ideally the team has talented enough depth that that the best guys can play 30-35 snaps and there isn't a big drop off for the remaining snaps. 

Whether that goes into practice I guess we'll see. I think it gets harder to take your better players off the field if you see a drop off and there's a sense of urgency to win games.

Also, built into the question is that the Jets didn't do that last year with JFM. Looking at snap counts from last year, they didn't cap guys at 35. Last year JFM was only under 35 snaps in two of the games he played, even Shepherd broke 35 snaps three times, Shaq Lawson 8 times, Bryce Huff 3 times, I can't find Quinnen game by game but he averaged 41 snaps a game so pretty clear he went over 35 too. So they didn't remotely actually do this last year.

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Trust me, if Q was even in the near vicinity of being as good as the first 6 guys on that list, he'd be getting more snaps. As they say, you earn your time. No coach in their right mind would not favor the better players. What they are saying is that Q is just "one of the guys." And having watched his act for 3 years, it's hard to argue otherwise.

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2 minutes ago, section314 said:

Trust me, if Q was even in the near vicinity of being as good as the first 6 guys on that list, he'd be getting more snaps. 

That is 100% my reaction. 

Obviously Saleh wants to rotate guys and keep them fresh. But if QW was a dominant player he'd be playing more -- you don't take elite DL off the field in crunch time.

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2 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

The Jets had zero chance of being competitive last year and were blown out in many games. Interior Dlineman get beat up in the trenches and have bodies that get worn down the more they play. 

Meanwhile, all of those other players listed were on playoff teams (outside of Allen who was on a 7-10 team) with reason to play their best players more. 

With all that said, why would anyone think the Jets should have played Q MORE last year? Were there times in the 4th quarter of 42-7 games where you were pounding the table for Q to be in the game to make a critical stop? Are you the guy that would be freaking out if Q tore his achilles in the 4th quarter of a meaningless game? 

Look at the quote posted above from Ulbrich.

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55 minutes ago, section314 said:

Trust me, if Q was even in the near vicinity of being as good as the first 6 guys on that list, he'd be getting more snaps. As they say, you earn your time. No coach in their right mind would not favor the better players. What they are saying is that Q is just "one of the guys." And having watched his act for 3 years, it's hard to argue otherwise.

The DC literally said they will adhere to the hard and fast rule of limiting reps.

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34 minutes ago, AFJF said:

The DC literally said they will adhere to the hard and fast rule of limiting reps.

yet the coach did not do what he said and played players more 70% of the snaps in the past. Why then and not now?

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20 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

It’s because he was atrocious against the run. They all were though so there’s maybe more to it than just him not being good enough. He seems like he sells out to get the QB way too much. 

Everything written above is 100% right. Only thing missing is they're doing exactly what being asked of them. Shoot and all out penetrate the gap. The risk is large sums of long distance runs and being vulnerable to screens. The benefits includes tackles for losses and easily transitioning to being a pass rusher. 

Not sure what's wrong with having a space eating who goes with the motion of the OL. But hey, we have a new system so it is what is it is. 

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