Playoff Mandate

[Augustiniak]

8 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I love Wilson.  Loved the pick, love his potential.  He sucked last year.  He in no way shape or form reminded me of Peyton Manning in his rookie year.  

For some context their were essentially 5 NFL rookies last year who got playing time.  Jones was decent.  Mills showed some late season ability to ball.   Fields, Lawrence and Zach sucked.  Zach had the lowest rating of all of them.

In fairness to Zach, he wasn't ready despite the hype that even I believed.  In fairness to Zach Saleh and Lefleur were in over their heads at the begining of the season.   Lefleur at least looked competent by the end of the year.  Saleh looks like he has a lot to learn about being a good HC.

Zach showed some flashes and there is no doubt he has great arm talent and is a very good athlete.  He has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other rookies from the recent past without mentioning Manning.  

Based on Completion percentage in today's NFL,  Zach Wilson was a complete turd.  Manning, based on completion percentage in 1998 was a competent NFL passer.

He clearly wasn’t ready and admitted it. Started to figure out not to take stupid risks the last month of the season.  One thing i like that douglas did was not overload on OL draft picks in 2022.  He realized that at this point the best way to help wilson was to get him playmakers so they could share the load.  The worst thing you want your young qb on a bad team to think is that they have to do it themselves b/c they know the guys around him suck.  But now the jets have rbs, tes and wrs who can all make plays.  Hopefully wilson realizes he just needs, as saleh said in a recent presser, to simply take what the defense is giving him.  Produce first downs.  There’s speed all over the field now.  The TEs can block but also catch.  Flip the TOP and start getting early leads.  

[jeremy2020]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

He clearly wasn’t ready and admitted it. Started to figure out not to take stupid risks the last month of the season.  

He switched from interceptions to sacks. That's better and he made a change to a problem, but it went to another, albeit lesser, problem. As you say, there's a lot more talent so hopefully there will be others who can bail him out when he runs into a problem (or it runs into him).

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

He switched from interceptions to sacks. That's better and he made a change to a problem, but it went to another, albeit lesser, problem. As you say, there's a lot more talent so hopefully there will be others who can bail him out when he runs into a problem (or it runs into him).

He didn’t switch.  He was taking sacks all year.  The difference is that he did not throw a pick in his last 5 games.  It seems that the coaching staff’s focus with wilson is for him to get the ball out quicker.  That will eliminate some sacks.  Also think it will emphasize the short passing game to those TEs and both rbs. 

[DonCorleone]

15 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I love Wilson.  Loved the pick, love his potential.  He sucked last year.  He in no way shape or form reminded me of Peyton Manning in his rookie year.  

For some context their were essentially 5 NFL rookies last year who got playing time.  Jones was decent.  Mills showed some late season ability to ball.   Fields, Lawrence and Zach sucked.  Zach had the lowest rating of all of them.

In fairness to Zach, he wasn't ready despite the hype that even I believed.  In fairness to Zach Saleh and Lefleur were in over their heads at the begining of the season.   Lefleur at least looked competent by the end of the year.  Saleh looks like he has a lot to learn about being a good HC.

Zach showed some flashes and there is no doubt he has great arm talent and is a very good athlete.  He has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other rookies from the recent past without mentioning Manning.  

Based on Completion percentage in today's NFL,  Zach Wilson was a complete turd.  Manning, based on completion percentage in 1998 was a competent NFL passer.

Look you make fair points.

However if we had to look at things in contexts, then records would mean absolutely nothing. Sack records, td records and such. You have to compare apples to apples. I did that. I only used the initial post's number to make a fair comparison. It would also help my case if I mentioned who Peyton's receivers were.

My point is simply that completion percentage in year one means little and you can see that by looking at Peyton's completion % of year 2.

[jeremy2020]

8 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

He didn’t switch.  He was taking sacks all year.  The difference is that he did not throw a pick in his last 5 games.  It seems that the coaching staff’s focus with wilson is for him to get the ball out quicker.  That will eliminate some sacks.  Also think it will emphasize the short passing game to those TEs and both rbs. 

..and 43% of the sacks he took all season occurred in those 5 games...

[DonCorleone]

1 minute ago, jeremy2020 said:

..and 43% of the sacks he took all season occurred in those 5 games...

He also missed 4 games. that means that 57% came in 8 games. It is an increase in sacks taken absolutely, just not an extreme amount. 

[Augustiniak]

28 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

He also missed 4 games. that means that 57% came in 8 games. It is an increase in sacks taken absolutely, just not an extreme amount. 

Also that last game vs the bills was a fold the tent game, 8 sacks.  It skews the stats a lot there.

[DonCorleone]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Also that last game vs the bills was a fold the tent game, 8 sacks.  It skews the stats a lot there.

agree and he also missed half the game when he injured his knee against the Pats in the second quarter. 

[TuscanyTile2]

14 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

Time to put the playoff talk to bed and start talking Superbowl 

Superbowl mandate!

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

17 hours ago, McNeil said:

It doesn't make sense the Jets have accumulated so much talent to settle for "meaningful games in December," yada yada. Nor should we as a fan base.

This team on paper should make some noise.

With Burrow & the Bengals doing what they did, there's no reason the Jets can't do a semblance thereof. Hell, the Jets beat the Bengals last year even if it was flukey. In the salary cap, free agent era, crazy turnarounds have been the norm for a select few teams every season. Why not the '22 Jets?

The NFL stands for "Not For Long" in the immortal words of Jerry Glanville. And the Jets time is now to make a move - if Douglas, Saleh, Zach, etc think they are as good as they think they are. Not necessarily to win it all. But by all means, to make the playoffs.

I've been all in with this new regime, unlike many Douglas and Saleh haters who by definition want the Jets to fail. But what comes with being all in is an insistence on results. Playoff mandate.

I guess that you haven't been a Jets fan for very long . They don't respond to mandates .

[bitonti]

5 hours ago, DonCorleone said:

I am not saying that Wilson Will be Peyton Manning or even close, but you did mention his 55% completion percentage, I will use Peyton of a reference point. In 1998 Peyton played on what was probably a more talented team than the Jets were in 2021 and managed to win 3 games. If I recall correctly, he did not have that many drops or as many as the Jets had last year. His Completion Percentage was 56.7

If ZW threw 26 tds last year I wouldn't be as concerned 

That jump from 55 to 62 is what the team needs though 

[bitonti]

36 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

agree and he also missed half the game when he injured his knee against the Pats in the second quarter. 

ZW has been an injury risk since byu where he tore both labrum 

The guy misses a month with a knee injury as a rookie that's not great. It's not like nfl players get healthier as they age

[DonCorleone]

43 minutes ago, bitonti said:

ZW has been an injury risk since byu where he tore both labrum 

The guy misses a month with a knee injury as a rookie that's not great. It's not like nfl players get healthier as they age

He also took an unmitigated beating without the team sticking up for him. I am only shocked that he did not have a season ending injury.

[bitonti]

7 minutes ago, DonCorleone said:

He also took an unmitigated beating without the team sticking up for him. I am only shocked that he did not have a season ending injury.

Are we talking about the coastal Carolina game again? /s

https://youtu.be/dqVsUtXYxVg

 

Unless ZW turns into tb12 (and Becton turns into wirfs) he's going to take hits. 

My problem with this guy has always been lack of an NFL body. He's not exactly Josh Allen or big ben. He's not Vinny T either. He's just a regular looking guy which is cool and all but nothing special physically. I did not see the appeal at 2 overall and I still don't. Chad was a similar not special athlete but at least ZW has an arm 

Drew Brees and Russell Wilson can defy the odds but no one takes drew Brees 2 overall. 

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Are we talking about the coastal Carolina game again? /s

https://youtu.be/dqVsUtXYxVg

 

Unless ZW turns into tb12 (and Becton turns into wirfs) he's going to take hits. 

My problem with this guy has always been lack of an NFL body. He's not exactly Josh Allen or big ben. He's not Vinny T either. He's just a regular looking guy which is cool and all but nothing special physically. I did not see the appeal at 2 overall and I still don't

Have you seen him lately? 

Looks bulked up to me. 

[DonCorleone]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Are we talking about the coastal Carolina game again? /s

https://youtu.be/dqVsUtXYxVg

 

Unless ZW turns into tb12 (and Becton turns into wirfs) he's going to take hits. 

My problem with this guy has always been lack of an NFL body. He's not exactly Josh Allen or big ben. He's not Vinny T either. He's just a regular looking guy which is cool and all but nothing special physically. I did not see the appeal at 2 overall and I still don't. Chad was a similar not special athlete but at least ZW has an arm 

Drew Brees and Russell Wilson can defy the odds but no one takes drew Brees 2 overall. 

Unretaliated beating against the Pats as well.

[bitonti]

Just now, slimjasi said:

Have you seen him lately? 

Looks bulked up to me. 

He's ten pounds heavier it's true 

That's an improvement but he's still a durability risk. 

The best thing ZW can do is get rid of the ball early because he's not going to make it long taking hits from the myles Garrett types 

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

He's ten pounds heavier it's true 

That's an improvement but he's still a durability risk. 

The best thing ZW can do is get rid of the ball early because he's not going to make it long taking hits from the myles Garrett types 

I worry about his durability, as well. But I think you hit the nail on the head. 

His issue is he is in love with holding onto the ball and extending plays and that gets a lot of guys killed. 

He was better at getting rid of the ball quicker at the end of the season, so I hope to see him continue to improve in that area in year 2. 

I think the thing about his size is overrated - he's basically Aaron Rodgers in terms of body type. 

[bitonti]

15 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

 

I think the thing about his size is overrated - he's basically Aaron Rodgers in terms of body type. 

That's fine and the comparison many people made at the time.

But Rodgers went like 25th and sat for 3 years. 

The Jets took this dude at 2 and threw him into the fire. 

I'm often seen as anti Zach but it wasn't fair to the player either to force feed him with his lack of strength and such a bad team around him 

I was on record wanting penei Sewell or Kyle Pitts that draft because this team wasn't ready to "open the super bowl window" 

Instead jd pushed all in on Zach and here we are, hoping for a ten percent accuracy bounce going into year 2

 

[#27TheDominator]

32 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Are we talking about the coastal Carolina game again? /s

https://youtu.be/dqVsUtXYxVg

 

Unless ZW turns into tb12 (and Becton turns into wirfs) he's going to take hits. 

My problem with this guy has always been lack of an NFL body. He's not exactly Josh Allen or big ben. He's not Vinny T either. He's just a regular looking guy which is cool and all but nothing special physically. I did not see the appeal at 2 overall and I still don't. Chad was a similar not special athlete but at least ZW has an arm 

Drew Brees and Russell Wilson can defy the odds but no one takes drew Brees 2 overall. 

Kyler Murray went #1 overall. 

[bitonti]

13 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Kyler Murray went #1 overall. 

 

Kyler Murray was the first player to be drafted top ten by both mlb and nfl. He (and Russell Wilson) are actually pro baseball players, built like shortstops. Not tall but strong fast and agile. 

ZW has no elite physical attributes, other than his golden right arm. He's not especially strong fast or big. 

The fact that he's up to 6-3 220 from 210 his rookie year is good news but he's still kind of fragile (skinny) by nfl standards. He's closer to rookie year darnold now, another not so special athlete 

He _can_ do it, like it's feasible. He could become a a franchise qb based purely on the arm talent 

but he's never going to be like a Josh Allen/big ben rare special athlete. He's never going to have the big platform like Trevor or even Joe Flacco. He's certainly not going to be a running threat like Lamar or even Jalen hurts 

Best we can hope for is like an Aaron Rodgers or Joe Montana. But those guys don't go 2 overall, usually 

ZW was overdrafted it's that simple. 

[slimjasi]

14 minutes ago, bitonti said:

That's fine and the comparison many people made at the time.

But Rodgers went like 25th and sat for 3 years. 

The Jets took this dude at 2 and threw him into the fire. 

I'm often seen as anti Zach but it wasn't fair to the player either to force feed him with his lack of strength and such a bad team around him 

I was on record wanting penei Sewell or Kyle Pitts that draft because this team wasn't ready to "open the super bowl window" 

Instead jd pushed all in on Zach and here we are, hoping for a ten percent accuracy bounce going into year 2

 

I'm just not obsessed with the body type thing. If he's really gained 10 pounds he's now maybe five pounds lighter than Patrick Mahomes (and an inch shorter). Would I rather have a bigger guy, all things being equal? Sure. 

Also, I'm assuming Rodgers would go #1 overall if teams had a do-over on the 2005 draft. 

[Jet_Engine1]

[bitonti]

12 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Mahomes 

Also, I'm assuming Rodgers would go #1 overall if teams had a do-over on the 2005 draft. 

Let me repeat myself both Mahomes and Rodgers got their rookie years off. ZW was supposed to be "pro ready" which is why Zach goes 2, Mahomes goes 10 and Rodgers goes 25.

Theres a thread in the draft sub where I'm begging for Mahomes the day before they drafted Jamal Adams. That's not really relevant I just love to mention that. ?

Mahomes participated in the process though, he ran a 4.8 40 and a 6.8 3 cone. He broad jumped 114 and vertical leaped 30. 

These aren't insane numbers but they are indicators of an NFL prospect. And he did it at 225 

Meanwhile ZW never ran, lifted or jumped. He only weighed in and threw in drills. 

For all the talk about JD and RAS scores, Zach had no numbers. Other than that arm, there's nothing physically special about Zach. In fact there's probably a few areas where he's well below average compared to the other 31 starters

It's a stretch to say that he was a Mahomes type of prospect coming out. It's not a stretch to say out of Trevor, trey Lance and Justin fields, Zach wilson is the least impressive athlete. 

On a personal note I loathe it when prospects refuse to run or do all the work pre draft. It always feels like these players are hiding something (cough cough Evan Neal). It's the NFL a player should not be scared to compete. 

[#27TheDominator]

18 minutes ago, bitonti said:

 

Kyler Murray was the first player to be drafted top ten by both mlb and nfl. He (and Russell Wilson) are actually pro baseball players, built like shortstops. Not tall but strong fast and agile. 

ZW has no elite physical attributes, other than his golden right arm. He's not especially strong fast or big. 

The fact that he's up to 6-3 220 from 210 his rookie year is good news but he's still kind of fragile (skinny) by nfl standards. He's closer to rookie year darnold now, another not so special athlete 

He _can_ do it, like it's feasible. He could become a a franchise qb based purely on the arm talent 

but he's never going to be like a Josh Allen/big ben rare special athlete. He's never going to have the big platform like Trevor or even Joe Flacco. He's certainly not going to be a running threat like Lamar or even Jalen hurts 

Best we can hope for is like an Aaron Rodgers or Joe Montana. But those guys don't go 2 overall, usually 

ZW was overdrafted it's that simple. 

Kyler Murray was not tall, but strong at 5'10 207, while Wilson at 6'2" 214 is feeble.  I'm not sure why I am supposed to care how good these kids are at baseball, but the fact that Murray runs more probably isn't a plus for durability.  I love the part where you claim that the best we could hope for are 2 of the 5 greatest QBs of all time and that those guys would not have gone #2 overall.  Because they were short?   Baker Mayfield went #1 overall in one of the most hyped QB classes in history.  He is 6'0" 215.  He must be a really good baseball player. 

[DJF71]

This is the only mandate I'm on board with. 

[slimjasi]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Let me repeat myself both Mahomes and Rodgers got their rookie years off. ZW was supposed to be "pro ready" which is why Zach goes 2, Mahomes goes 10 and Rodgers goes 25.

Theres a thread in the draft sub where I'm begging for Mahomes the day before they drafted Jamal Adams. That's not really relevant I just love to mention that. ?

Mahomes participated in the process though, he ran a 4.8 40 and a 6.8 3 cone. He broad jumped 114 and vertical leaped 30. 

These aren't insane numbers but they are indicators of an NFL prospect. And he did it at 225 

Meanwhile ZW never ran, lifted or jumped. He only weighed in and threw in drills. 

For all the talk about JD and RAS scores, Zach had no numbers. Other than that arm, there's nothing physically special about Zach. In fact there's probably a few areas where he's well below average compared to the other 31 starters

It's a stretch to say that he was a Mahomes type of prospect coming out. It's not a stretch to say out of Trevor, trey Lance and Justin fields, Zach wilson is the least impressive athlete. 

On a personal note I loathe it when prospects refuse to run or do all the work pre draft. It always feels like these players are hiding something (cough cough Evan Neal). It's the NFL a player should not be scared to compete. 

You're losing me with the athletic stuff. Wilson has plenty of athleticism to play the position. Plenty. In fact, I would argue the best thing he did last year was avoid pass rushers, both inside and outside of the pocket. He's very mobile and elusive and is a bit faster than he gets credit for. 

His issues last year were a lack of quick decision making and inaccuracy. He has to get better at making quicker decisions in the pocket and delivering the ball accurately, where the receiver can run in stride after the catch. His athleticism is fine. 

 

[bitonti]

13 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

You're losing me with the athletic stuff. Wilson has plenty of athleticism to play the position. Plenty. In fact, I would argue the best thing he did last year was avoid pass rushers, both inside and outside of the pocket. He's very mobile and elusive and is a bit faster than he gets credit for. 

His issues last year were a lack of quick decision making and inaccuracy. He has to get better at making quicker decisions in the pocket and delivering the ball accurately, where the receiver can run in stride after the catch. His athleticism is fine. 

 

yeah I tend to agree he's a better athlete than he's given credit for but if he had done the workouts we wouldn't have to say "he's faster than he gets credit for" we could just point at a number and say "he's X fast, that's exactly how fast he is"

No one would tolerate that mess from a non-QB by the way. if sauce doesn't run he doesn't go 4. All of these guys are rare it's the workouts that determine how rare.  

i'm not really worried about his speed or elusiveness tbh. You say his athleticism is "Fine" and that's probably a fair assesment. But shouldn't we expect more than "Fine" from 2 overall? It's the highest pick this franchise has made since Keyshawn.

more than his speed/agility I'm more concerned about his durability (ability to take a hit). 6'3" 220 (225?) is approaching "ok" level but he's still undersized by NFL standards (and always will be).  He's already tore two labrum and took a month off with a knee sprain last year. People kill Becton for getting rolled up on by GVR but Zach isn't exactly the picture of health. We don't talk about Bruno, no no. 

in terms of his game, his footwork was garbage last year, as was his ball placement on short and intermediate throws. He held the ball way too long. He's got a sweet bomb and his arm is live, no one can deny that. I'm more concerned about what happens when he gets smooshed.  

[TuscanyTile2]

41 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Best we can hope for is like an Aaron Rodgers or Joe Montana. But those guys don't go 2 overall, usually 

ZW was overdrafted it's that simple. 

Joe Montana or Aaron Rodgers is the best we can hope for?!  I want my money back!!!

[bitonti]

23 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Kyler Murray was not tall, but strong at 5'10 207, while Wilson at 6'2" 214 is feeble.  I'm not sure why I am supposed to care how good these kids are at baseball, but the fact that Murray runs more probably isn't a plus for durability.  I love the part where you claim that the best we could hope for are 2 of the 5 greatest QBs of all time and that those guys would not have gone #2 overall.  Because they were short?   Baker Mayfield went #1 overall in one of the most hyped QB classes in history.  He is 6'0" 215.  He must be a really good baseball player. 

this sounds insane but I'd rather have 5'10 210 or 6'0 215 than 6'3" 214 

there's a thinness to Zach's frame that these other guys don't have (because they are shorter) 

and that thinness translates to injuries, which he's had every year he's played 

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Kyler Murray went #1 overall. 

Most over rated QB in the NFL.  

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

yeah I tend to agree he's a better athlete than he's given credit for but if he had done the workouts we wouldn't have to say "he's faster than he gets credit for" we could just point at a number and say "he's X fast, that's exactly how fast he is"

No one would tolerate that mess from a non-QB by the way. if sauce doesn't run he doesn't go 4. All of these guys are rare it's the workouts that determine how rare.  

i'm not really worried about his speed or elusiveness tbh. You say his athleticism is "Fine" and that's probably a fair assesment. But shouldn't we expect more than "Fine" from 2 overall? It's the highest pick this franchise has made since Keyshawn.

more than his speed/agility I'm more concerned about his durability (ability to take a hit). 6'3" 220 (225?) is approaching "ok" level but he's still undersized by NFL standards (and always will be).  He's already tore two labrum and took a month off with a knee sprain last year. People kill Becton for getting rolled up on by GVR but Zach isn't exactly the picture of health. We don't talk about Bruno, no no. 

in terms of his game, his footwork was garbage last year, as was his ball placement on short and intermediate throws. He held the ball way too long. He's got a sweet bomb and his arm is live, no one can deny that. I'm more concerned about what happens when he gets smooshed.  

I could definitely see him getting hurt and I agree completely about ball placement and just accuracy in general. The accuracy has to improve in a big way. 

I also agree that none of these guys should be skipping pre-draft workouts. They get a lot of bad advice and they are also just basically kids. 

And if he gets hurt, it will come after he has his most promising game, in typical Jets fashion. And then Mike White will get hurt in 2 quarters and we will be staring at Flacco for 10 weeks. 

[rangerous]

much as i think they can win 11+, i'd certainly be pretty happy if they went 6-0 or 5-1 in the east.

[Dunnie]

You dont have a playoff mandate with a 2nd year coaching staff and a 2nd year qb coming off a 4 win season.
Have some patience silly.

Dude ... at what point do we jettison this staff in your opinion ? ... If we are drafting top 5 next year there is a major issue.

I think anything less than 6 wins is a failure.

[Dwight Englewood]

On 6/8/2022 at 9:50 PM, Joe W. Namath said:

You dont have a playoff mandate with a 2nd year coaching staff and a 2nd year qb coming off a 4 win season.

Have some patience silly.

12 years 0 playoff appearances 

 

And now we are supposed to get excited about 4 win seasons