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19 minutes ago, Alka said:

Walker had 63 touchdowns in his first 10 years.  Toon had 31 touchdowns in his 8 year career.   After Walker's 10th season, he really wasn't the same player he was in his first 10 years.  So, if you want to really compare apples with apples, then knock off the final 3 years of Walkers career, and the numbers look much differently, don't they?  Walker had 2 pro-bowl seasons in his first 6 seasons.  Toon had 2 pro-bowls in 8 seasons.  

It's funny to me how you say being a deep threat is a dime-a -dozen".  If that were true, then how the heck did Walker become an all pro, and make the pro-bowl twice in his first 6 years?

This is the last I will discuss with you.  Your opinion of Toon being a better player than Walker is respectable, but saying that Toon was the much better player is agravating to me, since it's based upon emotion and not reality.  So, say what you want.  I'm done with your argument.

I love talking about players the game and not having the same POV doesn't bother me at all.   Not sure why you're agravated makes me emotional.  You asked I gave you my opinion.  Since you want to take best years I think it helps Toon. 

Toon had 3 pro bowl seasons in his first 4 and was all pro in his second year.  He had multiple concussions from taking head shots making catches in traffic and never played a full season after his 4th.   In his first 4 seasons he was in the top 4 in receptions 3 times.   He was in the top 10 4 times.

Did you see Toon and Walker play in their prime or are you making a stat based argument?  I freely admit I'm making an eye test argument.  I just looked at the stats and when you look at best years it hurts your argument.  

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53 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

After NOT signing him in the off season when they could have.  Awful awful awful asset management buy douglas and saleh on the back up QB situation.

Also White should be #2 100% for sure.

Flacco is trash.

Well I understand their thought process - don't use the capital as they were committed to Wilson all year...and if Wilson got hurt they could always go out and grab someone.  While the plan didn't work, if Wilson stayed healthy it would have paid off.  Not saying I agree but I believe that was their plan.  don't think it was Awful Awful.

These guys have seen what Mike White a lot.   They know what he is FAR more than we do., They see him every day in practice we saw him for 3 games - they know his skill-set.  I have to believe they know better on this one.

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

Yes, those are facts. Unfortunately they are not germane to the topic but hey, I have no problem with you bowling with the gutter rails up if you need the confidence boost.

Actually...they are directly germane to the topic as you stated it.

Your exact quote: "...list 4 guys who prove the rule. 90% (being conservative) of FQBs (and 100% of elite ones) show the signs of it by year 2"

So I did. 

My read on this was that you were saying if a QB doesn't show it by year 2, they never will.  If that wasn't your take, then perhaps we should clear that up.

And mind the gutters yourself because you seem to be more interested in being inflammatory than in discussing.  Not a good path to the pins.

 

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3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Actually...they are directly germane to the topic as you stated it.

Your exact quote: "...list 4 guys who prove the rule. 90% (being conservative) of FQBs (and 100% of elite ones) show the signs of it by year 2"

So I did.  But apparently that upset you enough to try to gaslight the thread.  I'm not going for that.  You can change the question but don't try to rewrite actual posts.  Only mods get to do that ;)

And mind the gutters yourself because you seem to be more interested in being inflammatory than in discussing.  Not a good path to the pins.

 

Dude. You really want to debate whether my point included the implicit condition that NFL QBs show something within 2 years OF ACTUALLY PLAYING NFL FOOTBALL, rather than riding the pine?

Well I sure don’t. If you think that’s a “win,” you can have it. Ya need it more than me apparently!

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4 hours ago, jgb said:

You say it’s an exception then list 4 guys who prove the rule. 90% (being conservative) of FQBs (and 100% of elite ones) show the signs of it by year 2. I say this knowing that if our QB has another year like last, people will still defend. Our QB’s future is currently running on the fumes of hope — maximum mileage — 1 season.

I tend to agree that we should see signs by year 2. I also think guys like Josh Allen, who were horrible year 1, tend to show signs of greatness by year 2. That certainly doesn't mean consistent greatness, but signs. Allen in year 1 had a horrible 52pct completion pct followed by a better, but still not great year 2 where he was 58pct. 

What made Allen's year 2 feel so good was because his play, while not consistent, showed flashes.  If Wilson's year 2 looks like:

3000 yards, 58pct comp 20/9 I think many here will still not be sold, but those were Allen's year 2 numbers. 

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3 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Anyone hear anything about Jermaine Johnson AKA the other first round pick?

Was just thinking I haven’t heard a peep about Johnson throughout rookie camp, OTA’s or minicamp.

Hell, I haven’t heard anything about the entire DL for that matter.

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54 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

Was just thinking I haven’t heard a peep about Johnson throughout rookie camp, OTA’s or minicamp.

Hell, I haven’t heard anything about the entire DL for that matter.

Did you change your avatar? 

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On 6/14/2022 at 11:58 AM, Maynard13 said:

I’m hoping and waiting for game 1. Hopefully we see Becton has flipped the pancakes. What’s the ideal weight for Becton? 350? Would love to see him at 325. Average weight of an NFL Tackle is 315. He needs to stop effin around. As do the Jets and impose a 335 pound top weight or you’re history. I don’t care how big he is or what weight he thinks he can play at. It’s a disaster waiting to happen when you continue to play at such a heavy weight.  Cut done finis sliced squashed jettisoned. Coming off a really bad knee injury requires top physical condition and his weight has a lot to factor in keeping that knee ‘safe’ and not undergoing any extra unnecessary weight. Jets need to stop babying this issue. Make it public and put those demands out there. Put the pressure on Becton to GROW the EFF up. Becton either gets his game together or rides off to IHOP heaven. Enough already. 

335?  He came into the combine saying he hoped to play at 350.  Of course, he was 365 at the combine and hasn't seen that number since.  365 should be his goal for now.  Otherwise he'll just blow his joints apart ala Chris Jenkins.

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18 minutes ago, sirlancemehlot said:

335?  He came into the combine saying he hoped to play at 350.  Of course, he was 365 at the combine and hasn't seen that number since.  365 should be his goal for now.  Otherwise he'll just blow his joints apart ala Chris Jenkins.

A steady 345-350 should be his target.

Especially if he wants to be a longterm LT.

That’s still 30 pounds over the prototypical LT weight, but I don’t have any delusions of this dude ever playing at 330 or less. He’s monstrous even compared to the average NFL OT.

If that’s too much of a challenge for him…then he shouldn’t be in this teams longterm plans. Put down your f*cking Twitch side job and focus on your profession that could pay you $25+ million a year over the next decade if you keep your nose to the grindstone.

The dude just turned 23 and has already had his weight ballooning up close to 400 lbs.

Playing at 360+ isn’t sustainable longterm, no matter how much some fans want to dupe themselves with this guy.

Ogden had 3 inches on Becton yet still maintained his weight in that 330-340 range.

I still believe that he has all-pro potential, but I’d be lying through my teeth if I said my faith in him reaching said potential hasn’t taken a major hit since last summer.

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7 hours ago, jgb said:

You say it’s an exception then list 4 guys who prove the rule. 90% (being conservative) of FQBs (and 100% of elite ones) show the signs of it by year 2. I say this knowing that if our QB has another year like last, people will still defend. Our QB’s future is currently running on the fumes of hope — maximum mileage — 1 season.

And how did Mahomes sitting out prove anything compared to Wilson’s rookie year?  Without even considering the offense he walked into.   And Lamar?  He was a runner who struggled to pass on another playoff team.  
Our QBs future is t close to being determined.  

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7 hours ago, Biggs said:

Mac Jones has a Masters degree and graduated with a 4.0 GPA.

You failed to mention Zach couldn't impliment the entire playbook in real time.   Mac Jones actually won the Job in NE.  

I’m sure that difficult sports hospitality masters really helped him digest a football playbook.  
His advantage was playing in the SEC and then a pretty good Pats team. 

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8 hours ago, Biggs said:

Mac Jones has a Masters degree and graduated with a 4.0 GPA.

You failed to mention Zach couldn't impliment the entire playbook in real time.   Mac Jones actually won the Job in NE.  

I don't know who is "smarter" than who, but I do know intelligence and education are not synonymous.

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5 minutes ago, Jet Blast said:

I dont know who is "smarter" than who, but I do know intelligence and education are not synonymous.

Agreed. I’m a lawyer and my mom still thinks I’m an idiot.

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57 minutes ago, Untouchable said:

I changed my avatar to what Wilson will look like in 2 years and we’re hopefully worshipping him.

Dude, you had that avatar since the great Tangini on JN, I need more notice for these changes.

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5 minutes ago, maury77 said:

Dude, you had that avatar since the great Tangini on JN, I need more notice for these changes.

You think I don’t feel betrayed since you ditched Robert Goulet?

Though I’ll never hate on Flair. I grew up in Southeast Virginia.

Flair is God 

Couldn’t even tell you how many times I watched him at the Norfolk Scope and Hampton Coliseum as a kid during the NWA days.

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12 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Id say hes probably in shape but hes not in football shape.  Huge difference.  As I said to those who know hes over 400lbs, hes probably where the Jets wanted him to be or close to it.  Not the same as being ready to get hit after being out and rehabbing for so long.  The same as Fant, Lawson etc so why risk them

For the record, I have no problem with him not being in football shape. Half the team isn't at their top football shape by week 1. But that being said, he should be coming into camp at his lowest playing weight since he's been on the team. That's what I mean when I say "in shape". We should be hearing ringing endorsements from coaching staff how he's in the best shape they've seen, he looks great, etc. We should be hearing the beat writers echoing the same sentiment. You can be in great shape - Which he absolutely should be if his doubters are wrong - without being in football shape. Look at EVERYTHING the coaching staff and writers are saying about Mims. Look at what MLF said about Becton. That's very telling. 

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5 hours ago, Green Ghost said:

Ranch dressing and fried calamari should never, ever… ah, forget it! I’m gonna stop now before I break something.

200.gif

Oh I agree… but that is how DK eats his 

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On 6/14/2022 at 4:36 PM, Biggs said:

Toon was better than Maynard and Sauer.  He was way better than Walker.  Toon was as good as it gets.  He had a great catch radius and unbelivable body control.  He took to many head shots catching balls he had no business catching.  

Toon was a great possession receiver.  No where near the caliber of Maynard, though, who caught it all over the field, dropped nothing and could take the top off a defense on any given play.  There's a reason he's in the Hall of Fame:

One of only 20 players who were in the AFL for its entire 10-year existence, Maynard was also one of only seven players who played their entire AFL careers with one team. Maynard finished his career with 633 receptions for 11,834 yards and 88 touchdowns. His 18.7 yards per catch is the highest for anyone with at least 600 receptions. Maynard was the first receiver to reach 10,000 yards and retired as pro football's all-time leader in receptions and yards receiving.[6] Charley Taylor passed him in career receptions in 1975,[12] while Maynard's yardage mark stood until 1986, when Charlie Joiner surpassed him.[13]

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10 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

Sounds like he's going to make the team again if he keeps this up.  Not quite sure how I feel about that.

Don't fall madly in love with Jeff Smith too soon. After manning special teams for two years and now kicking down the door and getting reps with the twos in TC he's gonna demand a new contract north of $20M/season.

This is just how it works now! 😜

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8 hours ago, Mogglez said:

@Paradis buys the man’s jersey and the curse was applied :(

lol damn you -- don't even put that thought in my head...

🤔

*reflects on the timing of when he bought Sam, Geno, Revis, Edwards etc Jersey...*

Fck.

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Pull the cameras back, like all the way to low Earth orbit. This is just the start of Zack's second season following a very bad first season. We'll all be sitting right here again in a year talking about how much better Z played his 2nd season, and how we expect him to develop and advance in his 3rd season.

I don't expect Zack to be a finished product after this TC or even this season. In fact, Z struggled so much his rookie campaign LeFleur may just do a near repeat for this season. LeFleur really can't move on to tougher sections of the playbook until ZW has mastered the first chapter. Zack may need another full season to get his footwork and fundamentals down stone cold.

And with so many new teammates around him, it may be a good strategy for them too. It'd be like a college kid taking a course over after bombing it his first go around. So much easier the second time around.

So ya, I expect about 80% of TC offensive 'installs' to be a repeat of 2021. But get it right this time. Z needs a rock solid foundation on which to build out and master LeFleur's entire playbook.

I don't anticipate too many installs from chapter 42 this year!

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12 hours ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

 

If Becton showed up at a good weight Saleh would be praising him or at least would tells us.

"He's not practicing, but he worked hard this off-season and is at a great weight right now" 

 

By avoiding the question he's basically confirming what the pictures show.

400 or close to it... probably over. 

 

I like saleh and want to give him the benefit of the doubt but let’s be honest, if parcels or bb was the coach Becton would be puking his ass off the entire mini camp.    
maybe saleh’s coddling approach works, I guess we all find out in September. 

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4 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

And how did Mahomes sitting out prove anything compared to Wilson’s rookie year?  Without even considering the offense he walked into.   And Lamar?  He was a runner who struggled to pass on another playoff team.  
Our QBs future is t close to being determined.  

Who said Mahomes sitting proved anything? I sure didn't. In fact I was arguing the opposite.

His future isn't close to being determined? With certainty no, but all intellectually-honest people should be able to greatly narrow their expected outcomes after this season. Anyone who says "he could still bust or he could still be elite" after this season is covering. 

 

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10 hours ago, Spoot-Face said:

Isn't that, you know, the whole point of this forum?

Everyone has carefully crafted their existence to avoid opposing viewpoints. Ancient technology such as message boards are one of the few places left online where you can't easily insulate yourself inside an echo chamber.

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26 minutes ago, jgb said:

Everyone has carefully crafted their existence to avoid opposing viewpoints. Ancient technology such as message boards are one of the few places left online where you can't easily insulate yourself inside an echo chamber.

Sort of.  In my opinion the algorithms put people in those echo chambers.  If you watch conservative media on youtube, they'll force feed you more.   Same with facebook and other social media.  I would say often times people don't even realize they're in an echo chamber on the web until they meet people in real life who suddenly have differing views and they can't handle it.  Strange world.

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13 hours ago, Lith said:

Sounds like we will have a new beat writer for the NYDN by the time camp starts.  I liked DJ, once you got past his Dolphin fandom and "out of bounce" comments, I thought he was knowledgeable, shared some good insights and provided more info during practices than most of our writers.

He's going into hiding from DWC

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3 hours ago, rtnelson said:

Sort of.  In my opinion the algorithms put people in those echo chambers.  If you watch conservative media on youtube, they'll force feed you more.   Same with facebook and other social media.  I would say often times people don't even realize they're in an echo chamber on the web until they meet people in real life who suddenly have differing views and they can't handle it.  Strange world.

Yes, it's the algorithms. Hence to nod to ancient technology :)

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5 hours ago, FootballLove said:

LeFleur really can't move on to tougher sections of the playbook until ZW has mastered the first chapter.

 

5 hours ago, FootballLove said:

So ya, I expect about 80% of TC offensive 'installs' to be a repeat of 2021. But get it right this time. Z needs a rock solid foundation on which to build out and master LeFleur's entire playbook.

The word last year was that they gave Zach the entire playbook, that they held back nothing. It was discussed as one of his strengths, as well as a potential problem. I doubt they scale that back this season. In fact, I expect some playbook evolution with the overhaul of the TE position. Much more 12/21 formations than last year, with them getting involved more as featured targets in the passing game from the line or H-back spots. 

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Definitely more positive signs from Zach than from the OTA's - Two days in a row he's put together some nice sequences. Even he does become a pretty streaky QB this year then it will still be an improvement. 

 

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10 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

And how did Mahomes sitting out prove anything compared to Wilson’s rookie year?  Without even considering the offense he walked into.   And Lamar?  He was a runner who struggled to pass on another playoff team.  
Our QBs future is t close to being determined.  

I think it's pretty clear that Mahomes and Lamar in their first year playing vastly improved their teams offenses.

While Mahomes walked into a really good O with a really good veteran QB that O went from 565 points to 681 points in his first year as a starter with essentially the same personal that Smith had.  They were first in yards and points and the big difference maker was Mahomes.

In Lamar's case Flacco got benched halfway through the season and even with him being held to a very small playbook went 6 and 1 as a starter and got them into the playoffs.  Baltimore doesn't sniff the playoffs in Lamar's first year if they don't make the switch.  They were 4 and 5 after 9 games before they made the switch.  Lamar had a QBR of 84.5 in his first year.  That's based on passing.   Zach was at 69.7.  If you think Lamar struggled passing in his first years on a relative basis he was much better than Zach passing the football. 

Trubisky, Jones, Darnold and Mayfield all have shown that if you're not making huge strides the organization itself starts to wobble.   Trubisky and Mayfield both showed huge improvement and took teams to the playoffs.  Mayfield was making big strides and was hurt last year.  When neither proved elite the coaching staffs and organizations panicked.   The Giants are starting over.   Jones free pass is over.  The Jets canned a GM and HC and Rhule is close to a dead man walking in Carolina.

This is a very big year for Zach.  The Jets didn't draft him to game manage.  The drafted him to lift the organization.  Saleh's comment was pure BS.  He's a nice kid, works hard, great arm and athlete.  If he can't process, see it and chuck it accurately doesn't matter.  We are going to find out.  Looking forward to it.  I'm pretty optimistic which I know from experience is rarely rewarded. 

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7 hours ago, jgb said:

Who said Mahomes sitting proved anything? I sure didn't. In fact I was arguing the opposite.

His future isn't close to being determined? With certainty no, but all intellectually-honest people should be able to greatly narrow their expected outcomes after this season. Anyone who says "he could still bust or he could still be elite" after this season is covering. 

 

Are they?  Josh Allen could have busted or turned the corner like he did.  Nothing was proven in year 2.  Actually seemed like the Bills worked his game management skills.  He was under 3100 yards.  His 2-1 TD ratio was nice but nothing said elite.  He’s not the only example, there is a long list of QBs that says you can still become elite after year 2 struggles

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