Around the league - training camp

[Dreams]

53 minutes ago, slats said:

He’d be foolish to help the 49ers get something for him. What he should be asking for is to be cut. He’ll get a better deal, and get to choose his team as a free agent. San Francisco moved on from him, he owes them nothing. 

Unless I'm mistaken, if he's cut, they're still on the hook for 24 million in change right?

[slats]

3 minutes ago, Dreams said:

Unless I'm mistaken, if he's cut, they're still on the hook for 24 million in change right?

You’re mistaken. He has no guaranteed money coming this year. They cut him, they clear $24M in cap space. 

[section314]

2 minutes ago, slats said:

You’re mistaken. He has no guaranteed money coming this year. They cut him, they clear $24M in cap space. 

Worth way more than holding out for a 3rd or 4th rd pick.

[Integrity28]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

 There was no argument.  

 

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Go ahead and dispute that. 

 

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Have no idea what you’re arguing about.  Who pissed in your coffee
Sorry you didn’t like the explanation. 

lol, how are you allowed out in public?

[Dreams]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Mac Jones was:

-17th in the NFL last season in Air Yards per Completion. Ahead of Patrick Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady.
-14th in passes over 10 yards
-11th in passes over 20 yards
-13th in number of big pass plays (over 25 yards).

Mac outperformed the expected output in the latter three categories (which could be skewed by YAC) considering his weaponz ranked 18th in YAC per completion. He made his teammates better, exactly as a FQB should and he was only a rookie.

He may not have a mega cannon but he has a satisfactory NFL caliber arm and is likely to continue to get better as his game relies less on relatively inelastic physical superiority than it does on football smarts and acumen, both of which tend to grow appreciably with additional playing experience.

This is simply the truth, and I get why many here don't want to admit it. It's sickening but we are going to hear the excuse makers, down players, and then ultimately I promise we will hear, "but he couldn't play before they put him on HGH!!!" It was all right there to see before the draft and we took what was behind curtain #2. ? 

[Integrity28]

34 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

Bad luck in Tampa

Julio Jones can play center.

[slats]

5 minutes ago, section314 said:

Worth way more than holding out for a 3rd or 4th rd pick.

No one’s giving them that for Garoppolo at $24M. 

[Dreams]

6 minutes ago, slats said:

You’re mistaken. He has no guaranteed money coming this year. They cut him, they clear $24M in cap space. 

I stand corrected, but he does have a no trade clause which one would think that should give him the leverage to make them cut him. I still think it's big gamble by the 49ers, I've seen nothing from Lance to suggest he's the guy.

[jgb]

9 minutes ago, Dreams said:

This is simply the truth, and I get why many here don't want to admit it. It's sickening but we are going to hear the excuse makers, down players, and then ultimately I promise we will hear, "but he couldn't play before they put him on HGH!!!" It was all right there to see before the draft and we took what was behind curtain #2. ? 

There’s always a way to explain away what happens on the field which is why I developed my super-complex player evaluation technique (patent pending):

Good players tend to play good football.

[nycdan]

3 minutes ago, Dreams said:

I stand corrected, but he does have a no trade clause which one would think that should give him the leverage to make them cut him. I still think it's big gamble by the 49ers, I've seen nothing from Lance to suggest he's the guy.

Doesn't matter.  With the draft capital they spent to get Lance, they have to give him the next two years.  Unless he pulls a Josh Rosen, he's the starter through then.  

It's the rookie contract problem.  You have to commit to the 5th year extension after year 3.  If the kid doesn't play for two years, you are making that decision based on a very small data set so you really need them playing by the start of season 2.

[Integrity28]

didnt even realize they converted him to te

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

 

 

lol, how are you allowed out in public?

Because stating that Jones doesn’t have a strong arm isn’t arguing to 99% of the world and doesn’t require meds.  

[nycdan]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

didnt even realize they converted him to te

Wow.  He failed out pretty fast.

[slats]

3 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

didnt even realize they converted him to te

Pretty sure this is the guy JD was supposed to draft instead of Captain Morgan. 

[greenwichjetfan]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

He may not have a mega cannon but he has a satisfactory NFL caliber arm and is likely to continue to get better as his game relies less on relatively inelastic physical superiority than it does on football smarts and acumen, both of which tend to grow appreciably with additional playing experience.

This could have been written word for word before he was drafted and it would have rang just as true as it does today. 

He was always the best bet to have the most early success, and the fact that his thrwpwr was his singular limitation was the writing on the wall. Throw power can be increased over the years through targeted strength training, recalibrating throwing motion, and a healthy supply of HGH - all of which are SOP in the NFL. This isn't my father's NFL where arm strength stays the same through the course of one's career because they thought that bicep curls and beef was all the strength and nutrition a QB needed.

He's the prototypical game manager, and for a team coached by Belichick, that's all you need to win. I wouldn't have wanted to draft him because the Jets are in an entirely different situation, but he's perfect for that team and that team is perfect for him. I have many posts predraft saying that I want no part of him but if the Pats end up with him, we're going to be in big trouble. Year 1, they already teamed up to win more games than we've won since since before either of my kids were born. 

[BigRy56]

31 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Julio Jones can play center.

2 Shohei Ohtani's in 1 year!

[freestater]

20 minutes ago, slats said:

Pretty sure this is the guy JD was supposed to draft instead of Captain Morgan. 

I wanted Peoples Jones at that point. 

[SackExchangeNYJ]

4 hours ago, Dreams said:

What is arm talent, the ability to throw it a mile, or the ability to put ball exactly where you intend? Which is more important in today's game? 

 

[SackExchangeNYJ]

36 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

This could have been written word for word before he was drafted and it would have rang just as true as it does today. 

He was always the best bet to have the most early success, and the fact that his thrwpwr was his singular limitation was the writing on the wall. Throw power can be increased over the years through targeted strength training, recalibrating throwing motion, and a healthy supply of HGH - all of which are SOP in the NFL. This isn't my father's NFL where arm strength stays the same through the course of one's career because they thought that bicep curls and beef was all the strength and nutrition a QB needed.

He's the prototypical game manager, and for a team coached by Belichick, that's all you need to win. I wouldn't have wanted to draft him because the Jets are in an entirely different situation, but he's perfect for that team and that team is perfect for him. I have many posts predraft saying that I want no part of him but if the Pats end up with him, we're going to be in big trouble. Year 1, they already teamed up to win more games than we've won since since before either of my kids were born. 

But can the roster sustain only having a game manager?

Belichick was able to bring guys in because of the wins. He overcame what is, at best, a mediocre draft record because free agents wanted to go where they could win it all. They were willing to put up with Belichick's old school micromanagement if it meant a legitimate shot at a title.

What happens when that ship sails? What happens when the team regresses for a while, as any team will? When his draft busts start to catch up on him, and more is put on the shoulders of the QB to be a stud and not just a game manager, will Jones be able to do it? Will free agents continue to take less money and be treated the way Patriots players are treated for the dream of a .500 season?

It is a lot easier to overcome bad drafts when you have Tom Brady giving you a chance to win it all. Free agents are more likely to choose Foxboro if they have a shot at a ring. But they won't take less money to have a pedestrian game manager lead a depleting roster to a mediocre season.

[yvj]

Admitedly I'm a casual football fan but that Buffalo game where Jones wasn't allowed to throw seemed somewhat like a red flag to me.

Yes, yes, I know I know b-b-bb..ut Zach Wilson. Yes yes you can't make any comments about another team unless you a hall of fame on your squad, I know, I'm sorry. 

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, Dreams said:

This is simply the truth, and I get why many here don't want to admit it. It's sickening but we are going to hear the excuse makers, down players, and then ultimately I promise we will hear, "but he couldn't play before they put him on HGH!!!" It was all right there to see before the draft and we took what was behind curtain #2. ? 

Zach Wilson was and is a better QB prospect than Mac Jones. You can choose to ignore that but it is true. Had we passed on Zach SF would have taken him at #3 in fact Steve Young has said SF traded up to 3 for Zach thinking the Jets would not be bold enough to take him.

Jones was a good prospect and better than probably any of the QBs in this year's draft. In fact Carolina trading a 2 4 and 6 for Darnold instead of not using draft capital  and just picking Fields or Jones was all time idiotic.

NE was very smart and spent tons of money on TEs, already had an elite defense and played Jones in the simplest possible offense not asking him to make many decisions and he played well. And the Pats stayed healthy.

Zach had like the opposite situation. Lots of injuries, bad OL for the first half, literally the worst TE room in the NFL and the worst defense in the NFL.

Also Zach improved as the season went on and Jones regressed.

In addition you cannot simply ignore traits because you think Jones is some brilliant QB brain. Zach is an elite athlete Jones is near the bottom of the NFL.  Jones has no where near the arm talent and a bottom third arm strength. No scrambling ability. No ability to make off schedule plays. Slow release. Before you say it, Brady is only similar in lack of athleticism, in the others he is far ahead of Jones.

Jones is a good player and was in the best situation of any QB by far. Zach was in the worst or 2nd worst to Chicago

The reality is that it will be 3 years before we know what they are. Jones will be a Top 25 guy a game management guy that neither really wins or loses games. A lesser Tannehill is his best case scenario. He is just too limited to be anything more.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rhg1084]

 

[Dreams]

32 minutes ago, SackExchangeNYJ said:

But can the roster sustain only having a game manager?

Belichick was able to bring guys in because of the wins. He overcame what is, at best, a mediocre draft record because free agents wanted to go where they could win it all. They were willing to put up with Belichick's old school micromanagement if it meant a legitimate shot at a title.

What happens when that ship sails? What happens when the team regresses for a while, as any team will? When his draft busts start to catch up on him, and more is put on the shoulders of the QB to be a stud and not just a game manager, will Jones be able to do it? Will free agents continue to take less money and be treated the way Patriots players are treated for the dream of a .500 season?

It is a lot easier to overcome bad drafts when you have Tom Brady giving you a chance to win it all. Free agents are more likely to choose Foxboro if they have a shot at a ring. But they won't take less money to have a pedestrian game manager lead a depleting roster to a mediocre season.

That's what many aren't getting, he's far better than "just a game manager". 

[section314]

8 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Zach Wilson was and is a better QB prospect than Mac Jones. You can choose to ignore that but it is true. Had we passed on Zach SF would have taken him at #3 in fact Steve Young has said SF traded up to 3 for Zach thinking the Jets would not be bold enough to take him.

Jones was a good prospect and better than probably any of the QBs in this year's draft. In fact Carolina trading a 2 4 and 6 for Darnold instead of not using draft capital  and just picking Fields or Jones was all time idiotic.

NE was very smart and spent tons of money on TEs, already had an elite defense and played Jones in the simplest possible offense not asking him to make many decisions and he played well. And the Pats stayed healthy.

Zach had like the opposite situation. Lots of injuries, bad OL for the first half, literally the worst TE room in the NFL and the worst defense in the NFL.

Also Zach improved as the season went on and Jones regressed.

In addition you cannot simply ignore traits because you think Jones is some brilliant QB brain. Zach is an elite athlete Jones is near the bottom of the NFL.  Jones has no where near the arm talent and a bottom third arm strength. No scrambling ability. No ability to make off schedule plays. Slow release. Before you say it, Brady is only similar in lack of athleticism, in the others he is far ahead of Jones.

Jones is a good player and was in the best situation of any QB by far. Zach was in the worst or 2nd worst to Chicago

The reality is that it will be 3 years before we know what they are. Jones will be a Top 25 guy a game management guy that neither really wins or loses games. A lesser Tannehill is his best case scenario. He is just too limited to be anything more.

 

 

 

 

 

I've posted this before, and the highlighted part made me think of it again. At Alabama's pro day, the NFL network sideline guy was standing with a bunch of scouts watching Jones throw. The brought him up and asked what he was hearing. Said the scouts he was with were having a very deep conversation with each other asking if they thought Mac Jones was going to get any better than he was right now. Surprisingly, more than one thought he had hit his ceiling. Found that to be pretty interesting.

[SackExchangeNYJ]

1 minute ago, Dreams said:

That's what many aren't getting, he's far better than "just a game manager". 

Then he can show that in his...

*checks stats*

...four pass attempts in a game.

[Dunnie]

I'm talking football, what Mac Jones is or becomes has nothing to do with what Zach Wilson becomes. We should have drafted Mac Jones, I'm sorry but that was my opinion before the draft and it still is. Zach was an over drafted media creation based on one season of success against low level competition, no matter how much I root for him it's not going to change that. I've said this before, in the last 20 years a dozen or so rookie QB's that started and finished their seasons at the bottom of the league statistically haven't amounted to anything in the NFL, not one was more than a career back up. Guess where Zach ended up last season? I've seen this movie before, I know how it ends, so I'm sorry for not blowing smoke up your back side.  

Ok .. gotcha

So your on record that Mac Jones was and is a better prospect than Wilson.

I'm 180 from that.

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[section314]

7 minutes ago, Rhg1084 said:

 

Reason #1 Engram is an ex-Giant.

[Dunnie]

That's what many aren't getting, he's far better than "just a game manager". 

Many seems to equal 'Dreams' in this thread.

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[Dreams]

8 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Ok .. gotcha

So your on record that Mac Jones was and is a better prospect than Wilson.

I'm 180 from that.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


 

In terms of the competition they both faced absolutely. If football was an arm strength contest Zach win hands down, it's not. What elevated Zach's draft stock was the dream of what everyone hoped he could do, they hoped he could develop a quick release to go with his arm strength, they thought that they could teach him to read defenses and how to manipulate coverages. What I'm saying is that they put the emphasis on the wrong skill set, and arm strength is may be number 4 or 5 and it's pretty much the only one Zach excels at. So yes, not only am I saying that Mac Jones is the better prospect, he's going to have the far better career.   

[Dunnie]

In terms of the competition they both faced absolutely. If football was an arm strength contest Zach win hands down, it's not. What elevated Zach's draft stock was the dream of what everyone hoped he could do, they hoped he could develop a quick release to go with his arm strength, they thought that they could teach him to read defenses and how to manipulate coverages. What I'm saying is that they put the emphasis on the wrong skill set, and arm strength is may be number 4 or 5 and it's pretty much the only one Zach excels at. So yes, not only am I saying that Mac Jones is the better prospect, he's going to have the far better career.   

Right .... I got you .... i think the book is still being written ...

My $$$ is on Zach... if the limits of his potential are reached he will far surpass mr mac jones.

Regarding release speeds Zachs is extremely quick...one of the quickest in the league.

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[Dreams]

35 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Zach Wilson was and is a better QB prospect than Mac Jones. You can choose to ignore that but it is true. Had we passed on Zach SF would have taken him at #3 in fact Steve Young has said SF traded up to 3 for Zach thinking the Jets would not be bold enough to take him.

Jones was a good prospect and better than probably any of the QBs in this year's draft. In fact Carolina trading a 2 4 and 6 for Darnold instead of not using draft capital  and just picking Fields or Jones was all time idiotic.

NE was very smart and spent tons of money on TEs, already had an elite defense and played Jones in the simplest possible offense not asking him to make many decisions and he played well. And the Pats stayed healthy.

Zach had like the opposite situation. Lots of injuries, bad OL for the first half, literally the worst TE room in the NFL and the worst defense in the NFL.

Also Zach improved as the season went on and Jones regressed.

In addition you cannot simply ignore traits because you think Jones is some brilliant QB brain. Zach is an elite athlete Jones is near the bottom of the NFL.  Jones has no where near the arm talent and a bottom third arm strength. No scrambling ability. No ability to make off schedule plays. Slow release. Before you say it, Brady is only similar in lack of athleticism, in the others he is far ahead of Jones.

Jones is a good player and was in the best situation of any QB by far. Zach was in the worst or 2nd worst to Chicago

The reality is that it will be 3 years before we know what they are. Jones will be a Top 25 guy a game management guy that neither really wins or loses games. A lesser Tannehill is his best case scenario. He is just too limited to be anything more.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry but your entire post reads like a Zach dream wish list, and I don't blame you, but it's not reality. Again this is all based on what you want to believe and not the reality of the situation. I won't argue because I won't change your mind, but I will say this, we are all going to know exactly who these two are a lot sooner than 3 years. my bet is Zach is competing for a back up job as early as next season and Jones proves he was the best QB in the class by the end of this season as well. 

 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Because stating that Jones doesn’t have a. String and isn’t arguing to 99% of the world and doesn’t require meds.  

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, slats said:

Pretty sure this is the guy JD was supposed to draft instead of Captain Morgan. 

Nope, that would be Gabriel Davis.

[Dunnie]

Dreams clearly rolling the troll .... time to leave this conversation bitches

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[Dreams]

29 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

Right .... I got you .... i think the book is still being written ...

My $$$ is on Zach... if the limits of his potential are reached he will far surpass mr mac jones.

Regarding release speeds Zachs is extremely quick...one of the quickest in the league.

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If that's true it sure hasn't shown up in games, which is kind of the point of having a quick release. Either way time is going to reveal all .