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Just now, y2k8 said:

If Zach Wilson is truly a great QB, winning the starting QB job back from Joe Flacco should not be a problem.

He will be given every opportunity once healthy. Every person in the FO wants what you want.

Rooting for a loss Week 1 seems a bit much. 

I didn’t say that he was going to lose the job.  I just said that I’m not rooting for any wins in a game where Joe Flacco is the starter.

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1 minute ago, hawk said:

That is all fine and dandy.  Obviously the next best thing to a super bowl win is an 0-16 season?

The whole purpose of the off-season is to better the product on the field.  The purpose is not to have a poor product on the field to better your chances in the off-season.

Every player on the field is out to win the game.  They do not care about who the generational QB is in the next draft.  

Let's say we got Lawrence, who by the way hasn't lived in to his hype, and he hurt his knee two years in a row.  Then what's the argument?   What if Jacksonville went Wilson 1 and Lawrence fell.  What's the argument?

The end result, the players on the roster.  Correct?

Again, what is the point for rooting against any player?  What's the alternative here and now?  White?  Trade for another JAG? 

You aren’t winning a Super Bowl with Flacco at this stage of his career.  Period.  The next best thing to winning a Super Bowl is finding a franchise QB and being a consistent winner who contends for the playoffs year in and year out.  If that means 0-17, 1-16, or 2-15, and your pick of the litter?  So be it.  You can spew all the what ifs in the world, they don’t change what is.  

Furthermore, I’d venture to guess that Lawrence is going to look significantly better this year than he did last year, but this board will do what it always does and find ways to discredit things that are touchy to them, just like they (myself included) did with Josh Allen.

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1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

You aren’t winning a Super Bowl with Flacco at this stage of his career.  Period.  The next best thing to winning a Super Bowl is finding a franchise QB and being a consistent winner who contends for the playoffs year in and year out.  If that means 0-17, 1-16, or 2-15, and your pick of the litter?  So be it.  You can spew all the what ifs in the world, they don’t change what is.  

Furthermore, I’d venture to guess that Lawrence is going to look significantly better this year than he did last year, but this board will do what it always does and find ways to discredit things that are touchy to them, just like they (myself included) did with Josh Allen.

Have you also already given up on Zach?

 

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Have you also already given up on Zach?

 

Absolutely not.  I’m just of the mindset of not hanging on beyond this season unless he shows significant progress and they win some games because of him, not in spite of him.

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1 minute ago, Mogglez said:

You aren’t winning a Super Bowl with Flacco at this stage of his career.  Period.  The next best thing to winning a Super Bowl is finding a franchise QB and being a consistent winner who contends for the playoffs year in and year out.  If that means 0-17, 1-16, or 2-15, and your pick of the litter?  So be it.  You can spew all the what ifs in the world, they don’t change what is.  

Furthermore, I’d venture to guess that Lawrence is going to look significantly better this year than he did last year, but this board will do what it always does and find ways to discredit things that are touchy to them, just like they (myself included) did with Josh Allen.

I don't disagree that Lawrence would have been a better pick, from a draft talent standpoint.  What's done is done.

The question is what is the alternative today?  Like you said, we can play what ifs all day.

The fact is we are where we are at.  The players on the roster are the players on the roster.  Today.

If your argument is to play White, I can appreciate that?  If your alternative is to give up future capital, you have a right to your opinion.  Maybe this had been stated and I missed it.  I still do not understand rooting against a player that is on the roster.  Which is fine as well.

So, the question is what is the alternative?

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1 hour ago, derp said:

As an example, Moore's splits with/without Wilson last year did not paint a pretty picture of how Wilson was playing. Moore did miss Wilson's better games, but Moore's elite stretch came with White and Flacco. Moore is potentially a really good NFL receiver, but I don't know if we or anyone else in the league will know just how good if he's getting dragged down by his QB play.

That may or may not happen with Wilson versus Flacco or White or whoever, but if Flacco happens to be the better option to give the other offensive skill guys a chance to develop, grow, and play well there is value in that. Especially in an era where guys push their way off of teams to move to good situations. 

Teams also have done at least as well bringing in and developing quarterbacks when they have established talent - the need to have a top 5 pick to get a QB is overrated. Sometimes there's a special guy #1, sometimes there isn't, but the #2-5 range overall is pretty ugly historically and there are some pretty nice results from six to the teens.

And yet his 3rd best receiving game on 12/5 against Philly 6-77 and 1TD came with Wilson at QB. 

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10 minutes ago, hawk said:

I don't disagree that Lawrence would have been a better pick, from a draft talent standpoint.  What's done is done.

The question is what is the alternative today?  Like you said, we can play what ifs all day.

The fact is we are where we are at.  The players on the roster are the players on the roster.  Today.

If your argument is to play White, I can appreciate that?  If your alternative is to give up future capital, you have a right to your opinion.  Maybe this had been stated and I missed it.  I still do not understand rooting against a player that is on the roster.  Which is fine as well.

So, the question is what is the alternative?

Play White.  Play Streveler.  Win or lose, they are younger than Flacco and they have a opportunity to show, over 2-3 games, that they're lightning in a bottle, as minuscule of a chance that is.  So now, if Zach comes back and shows you he’s not it, you have 2 other guys who you can go back to and say “…maybe” on.  You can’t do that with Flacco.  Flacco is how you get to point B, which is win a bunch of stupid nonsensical games with him simply not f’ng up, and you’re forced to trade up in the upcoming draft.

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8 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

At least the offense has not looked better without Zach. Feels like it has taken a step or two back in practices

this post aged poorly, lol
is it a coincidence that the offense looks the best it has all offseason?

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18 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Play White.  Play Streveler.  Win or lose, they are younger than Flacco and they have a opportunity to show, over 2-3 games, that they're lightning in a bottle, as minuscule of a chance that is.  So now, if Zach comes back and shows you he’s not it, you have 2 other guys who you can go back to and say “…maybe” on.  You can’t do that with Flacco.  Flacco is how you get to point B, which is win a bunch of stupid nonsensical games with him simply not f’ng up, and you’re forced to trade up in the upcoming draft.

There are 51 other players that want their best chances to win. A winning culture must be established to earn respect within and outside of the organization. 

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2 minutes ago, Bronx said:

There are 51 other players that want their best chances to win. A winning culture must be established to earn respect within and outside of the organization. 

Yes, so obviously the best way to change that is by playing a 37 year old QB who hasn’t won a game since 2019 and doesn’t have a future with the organization.

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25 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Play White.  Play Streveler.  Win or lose, they are younger than Flacco and they have a opportunity to show, over 2-3 games, that they're lightning in a bottle, as minuscule of a chance that is.  So now, if Zach comes back and shows you he’s not it, you have 2 other guys who you can go back to and say “…maybe” on.  You can’t do that with Flacco.  Flacco is how you get to point B, which is win a bunch of stupid nonsensical games with him simply not f’ng up, and you’re forced to trade up in the upcoming draft.

I can respect that.  Assuming they show more than what Flacco can bring out the best of the rest of the offense.  

If they don't develop, then what good is a franchise QB with no weapons.  

I actually like white.  I think he got a bad go of it after what he showed.  He deserved to play, imo. 

That said, if the coaching staff thinks Flacco give the team the best chance to win, who are we to argue?  There are still 52 other guys on the team that want the best chance to win.

Isn't that important as well?

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15 minutes ago, hawk said:

I can respect that.  Assuming they show more than what Flacco can bring out the best of the rest of the offense.  

If they don't develop, then what good is a franchise QB with no weapons.  

I actually like white.  I think he got a bad go of it after what he showed.  He deserved to play, imo. 

That said, if the coaching staff thinks Flacco give the team the best chance to win, who are we to argue?  There are still 52 other guys on the team that want the best chance to win.

Isn't that important as well?

Let’s be honest with ourselves.  The only players who genuinely care about winning immediately are aging veterans who don’t have much time left, and roster bubble guys who don’t know how long they have left in the league.  Guys like Garrett Wilson, Elijah Moore, AVT, Michael Carter, Breece Hall, Sauce Gardner, Jermaine Johnson, etc. know that they are here long term.  They know they’re the future core.  Those are the guys I honestly care about.  I don’t really care about Corey Davis, CJ Mosley, and guys of that ilk, who probably won’t be here next year.  I’m sure the core group will consider this year a blip on their radar if they’re competing for the playoffs every single year afterwards.

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1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

That’s very admirable and very nice of you.  I’m not deluding myself into believing that any win with Flacco is anything more than a meaningless, yet harmful, blockade to finding a franchise QB.  Half of you people preaching this are upset about drafting Wilson in the first place, as if beating the Rams and the Browns, with a QB who had no future here anymore, wasn’t the reason we ended up with him and not Trevor Lawrence.

So... Trevor Lawrence on the Jets right now, and... what? They win the SB? Are the Jaguars going to be a playoff team this year? Tell us your prognostication. Share your wisdom. I'd love to make some money in Las Vegas.  I'm sure you would, too. Let's all become millionaires together. 

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1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

Funny how you mention that last part.  You wanna watch Elijah Moore demand a trade?  Keep giving him a rotating door of washed up veteran QBs.

This is cope.


I imagine it’s less likely he demands a trade than if they force him to play with someone who’s worse for his production, but sure.

It’s not cope, it’s reality. And something I said repeatedly during the 2021 draft when I thought the idea they had to take a quarterback because they were drafting high was folly. At this point I feel pretty good about the take.

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Just now, Coquito said:

So... Trevor Lawrence on the Jets right now, and... what? They win the SB? Are the Jaguars going to be a playoff team this year? Tell us your prognostication. Share your wisdom. I'd love to make some money in Las Vegas.  I'm sure you would, too. Let's all become millionaires together. 

Trevor Lawrence on the Jets right now would be infinitely brighter than anyone else starting, Zach included, lmfao.  I say that as a supporter of Wilson.  Only an absolute homer of massive proportions would disagree with that right now.

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13 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Yes, so obviously the best way to change that is by playing a 37 year old QB who hasn’t won a game since 2019 and doesn’t have a future with the organization.

All I know is that I would like to see them win a championship before my clicker stops working. I really don't care who the QB is as long as my wish comes true. 

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5 minutes ago, derp said:


I imagine it’s less likely he demands a trade than if they force him to play with someone who’s worse for his production, but sure.

It’s not cope, it’s reality. And something I said repeatedly during the 2021 draft when I thought the idea they had to take a quarterback because they were drafting high was folly. At this point I feel pretty good about the take.

As someone else already pointed out, Moore still produced with Wilson.  His 3rd best game came with him under center and it was a very good game.

It’s massive cope.  Next year’s class has two premium prospects and a bunch of Zach Wilsons.  Guys who have raw tools but need some refinement.

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3 minutes ago, Bronx said:

All I know is that I would like to see them win a championship before my clicker stops working. I really don't care who the QB is as long as my wish comes true. 

Your wish is dead in the water with Joe Flacco under center.

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Just now, Mogglez said:

As someone else already pointed out, Moore still produced with Wilson.  His 3rd best game came with him under center and it was a very good game.

It’s massive cope.  Next year’s class has two premiere prospects and a bunch of Zach Wilsons.  Guys who have raw tools but need some serious refinement.

Beyond, “it’s cope” you don’t actually have a rebuttal because what I laid out is just a fact.

Cope is “we had a bad record but at least we’re in position to get a franchise QB”. Rarely, rarely works out that way. As we’ve seen. The Jets aren’t an outlier there.

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

And yet his 3rd best receiving game on 12/5 against Philly 6-77 and 1TD came with Wilson at QB. 

Two things can be true. He was in general better without Wilson despite playing more with him.

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10 minutes ago, derp said:

Beyond, “it’s cope” you don’t actually have a rebuttal because what I laid out is just a fact.

Cope is “we had a bad record but at least we’re in position to get a franchise QB”. Rarely, rarely works out that way. As we’ve seen. The Jets aren’t an outlier there.

I gave you a rebuttal.  The consensus 3rd best QB entering this college season is a 23 year old, small school, former 3 star recruit, highly athletic, strong armed QB, who played in a Shanahan style pro offense and kind of came out of nowhere.  Does that sound familiar to you?

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25 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Trevor Lawrence on the Jets right now would be infinitely brighter than anyone else starting, Zach included, lmfao.  I say that as a supporter of Wilson.  Only an absolute homer of massive proportions would disagree with that right now.

I'm going to respond to your previous post. Hold on.

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5 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

I gave you a rebuttal.  The consensus 3rd best QB entering this college season is a 23 year old, small school, highly athletic, strong armed QB, who played in a Shanahan style pro offense and kind of came out of nowhere.  Does that sound familiar to you?

I don’t see how the perceived quality of a QB class - when the top guy entering the college season has remained the top guy what, twice or three times in the last ten drafts - is a legitimately good counter to what the actual track record of drafted quarterbacks has been. The 2018 and 2021 classes were supposed to be great too. Jets picked third and second. Both classes pretty mixed. That’s just how it goes.

I’m also not arguing that the Jets shouldn’t draft quarterbacks, though I think they should be careful about it. I’m pushing back on the notion I got from the original post I quoted, which was effectively that QB play doesn’t matter this year. Maybe with an older roster, but with a roster this young it’s important to know what you have in the young guys.

If Wilson is better than Flacco, good, play Wilson. If he’s not better than Flacco at this point…I suppose you can squint really hard and see a path to him becoming a superstar level quarterback - which is what you’d need to win a Super Bowl with him beyond his rookie year - but it’s very unlikely.

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1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

That’s very admirable and very nice of you.  I’m not deluding myself into believing that any win with Flacco is anything more than a meaningless, yet harmful, blockade to finding a franchise QB.  Half of you people preaching this are upset about drafting Wilson in the first place, as if beating the Rams and the Browns, with a QB who had no future here anymore, wasn’t the reason we ended up with him and not Trevor Lawrence.

Let's work through this word salad.

Any wins the Jets get this season if Flacco starts are "meaningless". Because, according to you, that would be a "blockade" to finding "a franchise QB".  Then you go on to admonish "half of you people" upset about drafting Zach because the Jets beat the Rams and Browns thus giving us more wins than Jacksonville, who were able to draft Trevor Lawrence.

Tell me, you base all these assertions on what? Your imagination?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

Yes, so obviously the best way to change that is by playing a 37 year old QB who hasn’t won a game since 2019 and doesn’t have a future with the organization.

I tend to agree with you on a lot of things but not on your take on starting Flacco until Wilson is ready. I go into each year thinking playoffs, most recent years that has been a pipe dream but this year I believe we have enough talent to sneak in. I like White but I don’t see him being a viable starter and Streveler is a nice story but I believe that is all he is. If Flacco can sneak in a win or 2 while Zack gets fully healthy that gives the team a chance to make the playoffs. We have a number of young players that are coming in from winning programs and even if they can’t make the playoffs it is time to build a winning atmosphere. I think Wilson will continue to improve and be the long term QB so there is no reason to tank for losses.

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48 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Let’s be honest with ourselves.  The only players who genuinely care about winning immediately are aging veterans who don’t have much time left, and roster bubble guys who don’t know how long they have left in the league.  Guys like Garrett Wilson, Elijah Moore, AVT, Michael Carter, Breece Hall, Sauce Gardner, Jermaine Johnson, etc. know that they are here long term.  They know they’re the future core.  Those are the guys I honestly care about.  I don’t really care about Corey Davis, CJ Mosley, and guys of that ilk, who probably won’t be here next year.  I’m sure the core group will consider this year a blip on their radar if they’re competing for the playoffs every single year afterwards.

You are right!  I am sure they have no interest in winning.  They have no interest in looking good.  They have no interest in working toward that second contract.  

Let's call it a season, right?  Let's hit simulate season on madden and move on, right?

I am all for playing White.  I'm sure the players would rally behind him also.  

The bottom line, if Flacco gives the team the best chance to win now, that is who will start.

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3 hours ago, Coquito said:

Let's work through this word salad.

Any wins the Jets get this season if Flacco starts are "meaningless". Because, according to you, that would be a "blockade" to finding "a franchise QB".  Then you go on to admonish "half of you people" upset about drafting Zach because the Jets beat the Rams and Browns thus giving us more wins than Jacksonville, who were able to draft Trevor Lawrence.

Tell me, you base all these assertions on what? Your imagination?

This isn’t hard to grasp if you use a little bit of reading comprehension.

The Jets won meaningless games in 2020, missing out on Trevor Lawrence.  The same people upset right now are people who were pissed that we missed out on Lawrence, drafted Wilson, and now they want us to win meaningless games with Joe Flacco, thus repeating the vicious cycle.

I was on this forum in 2020.  I saw these “assertions” with my own two eyes.

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14 minutes ago, hawk said:

You are right!  I am sure they have no interest in winning.  They have no interest in looking good.  They have no interest in working toward that second contract.  

Let's call it a season, right?  Let's hit simulate season on madden and move on, right?

I am all for playing White.  I'm sure the players would rally behind him also.  

The bottom line, if Flacco gives the team the best chance to win now, that is who will start.

I appreciate the unbridled optimism.  I really do.  There was a point where I was like that.  If Joe Flacco is truly our “best chance to win now”, the season is, honestly, over and we are far more f*cked than I originally thought we were.

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22 minutes ago, Joejet said:

I tend to agree with you on a lot of things but not on your take on starting Flacco until Wilson is ready. I go into each year thinking playoffs, most recent years that has been a pipe dream but this year I believe we have enough talent to sneak in. I like White but I don’t see him being a viable starter and Streveler is a nice story but I believe that is all he is. If Flacco can sneak in a win or 2 while Zack gets fully healthy that gives the team a chance to make the playoffs. We have a number of young players that are coming in from winning programs and even if they can’t make the playoffs it is time to build a winning atmosphere. I think Wilson will continue to improve and be the long term QB so there is no reason to tank for losses.

Fair enough.  I just disagree with the idea that there is any point in rooting for Flacco so I will not partake in doing so.  That being said, I do not believe this team is a playoff team this year, and I never have, so that’s already been my mindset.  If Joe goes 0-2 in his starts and Zach does end up progressing, that is ideal in my eyes.  Best possible draft pick and a clear answer on your QB.

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14 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Fair enough.  I just disagree with the idea that there is any point in rooting for Flacco so I will not partake in doing so.  That being said, I do not believe this team is a playoff team this year, and I never have, so that’s already been my mindset.  If Joe goes 0-2 in his starts and Zach does end up progressing, that is ideal in my eyes.  Best possible draft pick and a clear answer on your QB.

Who are your top 10 QBs going into 2022?  Don’t care about order, just your 10 best?

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