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Training Camp Tweets - (Previous Days Merged)


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1 hour ago, derp said:

Setting aside that the Panthers clearly drafted Ekwonu to play left tackle - just follow the asset allocation between him and Christensen - you’re smart enough to know a) comparing a safety to a corner isn’t a good analog for comparing a left tackle to a right tackle given the former largely requires different skill sets and the latter is more or less interchangeable - I think even tackle to guard is a less dramatic difference than corner to safety b) comparing the fourth overall pick to the sixth overall pick is much more reasonable than comparing the sixth overall pick to a second round pick and c) I wasn’t going to let a wild comparison like that slide.

I don’t think Ekwonu’s struggles at left tackle are comparable to most young left tackles. At this point it’s not “he could improve in pass protection” it’s “he’s so bad in pass protection that we can’t play him at the position we drafted him to play, so we’re stuck playing the guy we drafted him to replace”. I don’t think Ekwonu vs. Christensen is a weird college thing, it’s a response to things not going the way they planned. And they don’t want him to play at guard because you don’t draft guards who aren’t Quenton Nelson and probably landing in the HOF at 6 - it’s more valuable to have a rookie at the more important and expensive position and have an anchor there instead of moving him around. Even the idea that Ekwonu is an ideal right tackle…then he should’ve gone in the mid-late first, not at 6. They drafted him to play left tackle.

If this roster is winning four games, this roster with Ekwonu over Sauce is winning two. I don’t know how in the world you think a guy who’s struggling in training camp would help the team more than Sauce. Any street FA tackle - Brown, Fisher, Williams, Shell would help the team this year more than Ekwonu - and those guys can be added at any time. I think you could argue Cross or Neal more easily than Ekwonu too. The fascination with Ekwonu is one of the weirder board things in some time.

That and right tackle isn’t a premium position. It got filled with a street FA last offseason. A SB contender in the Chargers has an open competition between JAGs. I doubt there was any hubris re Becton, certainly not from Saleh, but potentially they just don’t think it’s a premium position that needs a top five pick invested there - which meshes with most of the league. Hell there’s a nontrivial chance Max Mitchell is a better tackle this year than Ekwonu - especially in pass protection which is what the Jets really need there.

Agree - Sauce was the perfect pick there

Also Icky may improve- Tunsil played Guard his first year, but he had better physical makeup than Icky for T

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18 minutes ago, David Harris said:

Agree - Sauce was the perfect pick there

Also Icky may improve- Tunsil played Guard his first year, but he had better physical makeup than Icky for T

Yeah, by no means do I think Ekwonu is a long term bust. I just firmly disagree with the notion that taking him with the purpose of meaningfully improving the team’s right tackle situation this year would’ve a good idea or the right decision.

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37 minutes ago, derp said:

I don’t think you can make the argument Ekwonu is best served to play right tackle and also make the argument he’s a good pick at 4. That’s not a position you take at four. Again, right and left tackle are largely interchangeable in terms of role and skill set, corner and safety aren’t close. 

Here’s the ESPN guy and Rhule:

“Bottom line: There's still a reason Ekwonu is far from winning the position. "He's got a long way to go,'' coach Matt Rhule said for the second straight day. "He gave up a huge sack there at the end. I'm not super concerned with the run-blocking, it's the pass protection he [needs to] continue to develop. He's right where he's supposed to be, but that's not like a receiver where you can have three good plays and then a drop. A drop at left tackle means the quarterback gets hit.'”

The idea of drafting Ekwonu went out the window when they signed Laken IMO and idea of picking Sauce went out the window when they signed Reed IMO to me that meant Thibs, tackle, and CB in 2nd round or more.

I do like Sauce but Hall now seems like a wasted asset unless JD can get a 2nd or better for him.

but it all didnt matter to me once they drafted Breece...finally #1 RB awesome prospect now it does not matter who they plug in at RT.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

And of course how would you know from your computer what Mitchell is or isn’t?  Maybe he can play meanwhile Ickey has struggled and has been pushed to G where we’re fine

I'm confused about what knowing anything from your computer has to do with anything. Every time someone on JN lists an opinion, another poster could respond with "How would you know from your computer." 

The point is the Jets had first round picks they did not use on an offensive lineman. Picking in the first round is a crap shoot, but the Jets took the calculated risk of not looking to address the offensive line. I'm okay with it, I just thought Becton was such a question mark that the team didn't have the luxury of not using a first round pick on a lineman. 

I hope Mitchel is awesome. 

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1 hour ago, derp said:

I don’t think you can make the argument Ekwonu is best served to play right tackle and also make the argument he’s a good pick at 4. That’s not a position you take at four. Again, right and left tackle are largely interchangeable in terms of role and skill set, corner and safety aren’t close. 

Here’s the ESPN guy and Rhule:

“Bottom line: There's still a reason Ekwonu is far from winning the position. "He's got a long way to go,'' coach Matt Rhule said for the second straight day. "He gave up a huge sack there at the end. I'm not super concerned with the run-blocking, it's the pass protection he [needs to] continue to develop. He's right where he's supposed to be, but that's not like a receiver where you can have three good plays and then a drop. A drop at left tackle means the quarterback gets hit.'”

That sounds like college coach claptrap to me, to be honest. The alternative to starting Ekonwu at LT is starting Brady Christensen who, as you’ve pointed out, isn’t Anthony Muñoz. Regardless, that snippet doesn’t seem to paint the picture of a guy who pass protects worse than Chuma Edoga. I also think you’re too fixated on drafting a RT or IOL at four or six. If Ekwonu ends up being Quentin Nelson, that’s an awesome pick no matter where you took him, especially considering the very next guy picked is Evan Neal, who is currently playing right tackle for the Giants. Weak draft overall, you gotta take the BPA, and Ekonwu was the consensus BPA there. The guys after that were Drake London, Charles Cross, Garrett Wilson, Chris Olave, and Jameson Williams. None of those guys strike me as can’t miss. 

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

That sounds like college coach claptrap to me, to be honest. The alternative to starting Ekonwu at LT is starting Brady Christensen who, as you’ve pointed out, isn’t Anthony Muñoz. Regardless, that snippet doesn’t seem to paint the picture of a guy who pass protects worse than Chuma Edoga. I also think you’re too fixated on drafting a RT or IOL at four or six. If Ekwonu ends up being Quentin Nelson, that’s an awesome pick no matter where you took him, especially considering the very next guy picked is Evan Neal, who is currently playing right tackle for the Giants. Weak draft overall, you gotta take the BPA, and Ekonwu was the consensus BPA there. The guys after that were Drake London, Charles Cross, Garrett Wilson, Chris Olave, and Jameson Williams. None of those guys strike me as can’t miss. 

The positional value portion of it actually isn’t the problem with Ekwonu, that’s what you’re missing - and of course it’d be great if he’s Quenton Nelson but nobody had that in his range of outcomes so I don’t know what that has to do with anything.

The problem is that the NFL is a passing league, the reason people are worried that the Jets’ offensive line is inadequate - and you’ve referenced this directly as well - is because they want to make sure Zach Wilson is protected, and Ekwonu is not technically proficient in pass protection at this point.

The whole Ekwonu fascination, and I believe where this started, is improving the team this year. It’s my firm opinion that Sauce + Duane Brown/Daryl Williams/Eric Fisher/Brandon Shell is significantly better for the team this year than Ekwonu + whatever they would’ve done at corner if anything - not only because Sauce is good but also because they’ll be able to trust *pick a veteran tackle* more than Ekwonu in pass protection this year.

There is an argument for Ekwonu but it’s a long term one, and I still think taking a guy with nice run blocking highlights and questions about his ability to pass protect in a passing league is questionable. Opposite end of the coin would be drafting a run stuffing DT. I just don’t think the skill set meshes with what’s truly important for the guy to do. Need to keep the QB clean.

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1 hour ago, SickJetFan said:

I do like Sauce but Hall now seems like a wasted asset unless JD can get a 2nd or better for him.

 

You can never have enough corners. I’m sure that positional group will have injuries and Hall’s experience last year will prove valuable. 

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1 hour ago, derp said:

Yeah, by no means do I think Ekwonu is a long term bust. I just firmly disagree with the notion that taking him with the purpose of meaningfully improving the team’s right tackle situation this year would’ve a good idea or the right decision.

Especially not if Sauce is actually going to be a stud corner. 

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1 hour ago, NIGHT STALKER said:

Let me ask you a question.  Say I agree with you...then what is the favor and benefit of the combine participating only in shorts and a T?  

Also a smart man would agree and know the real answer to this question it does no favor or benefit.  Hence the term work out warrior IE Vernon Gholston, and the WR in Cincy who put up a 4.2 40 gets drafted 9th overall and never to really be heard of again.

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55 minutes ago, derp said:

The positional value portion of it actually isn’t the problem with Ekwonu, that’s what you’re missing - and of course it’d be great if he’s Quenton Nelson but nobody had that in his range of outcomes so I don’t know what that has to do with anything.

The problem is that the NFL is a passing league, the reason people are worried that the Jets’ offensive line is inadequate - and you’ve referenced this directly as well - is because they want to make sure Zach Wilson is protected, and Ekwonu is not technically proficient in pass protection at this point.

The whole Ekwonu fascination, and I believe where this started, is improving the team this year. It’s my firm opinion that Sauce + Duane Brown/Daryl Williams/Eric Fisher/Brandon Shell is significantly better for the team this year than Ekwonu + whatever they would’ve done at corner if anything - not only because Sauce is good but also because they’ll be able to trust *pick a veteran tackle* more than Ekwonu in pass protection this year.

There is an argument for Ekwonu but it’s a long term one, and I still think taking a guy with nice run blocking highlights and questions about his ability to pass protect in a passing league is questionable. Opposite end of the coin would be drafting a run stuffing DT. I just don’t think the skill set meshes with what’s truly important for the guy to do. Need to keep the QB clean.

We’re arguing over something that will play out in the future, so I don’t want to push it much further, but let me state that 1. It’s fine that we drafted Sauce. He should be good and CB1s are obviously premium players. 2. I think you’re wildly overstating Ekwonu’s alleged difficulties in pass pro based on one vague comment from Rhule regarding the unrealistic expectation that his LT should never give up a sack 3. Duane Brown gave up 8 sacks last year; Eric Fisher gave up 7. They both had middling pass pro grades on PFF. Morgan Moses was better than both of them. These are not upgrades, regardless of the name. Even in the best case post-Becton scenario, the Jets are still taking a loss at a position that they need to be very good in order to assess Zach Wilson. The future of this franchise rests 1,000% on the shoulders of a young QB who was the worst QB when pressured last year, and among the worst against the blitz. They bet on Sauce+Becton and now they have half of that equation to work with. Sauce can be Deion Sanders this year, but if Zach Wilson is folding up like a tortoise against front side pressure this season, the season is effectively over. The mistake wasn’t drafting Sauce; the mistake was drafting Sauce because you thought you’d have Becton.

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7 hours ago, T0mShane said:

We’re arguing over something that will play out in the future, so I don’t want to push it much further, but let me state that 1. It’s fine that we drafted Sauce. He should be good and CB1s are obviously premium players. 2. I think you’re wildly overstating Ekwonu’s alleged difficulties in pass pro based on one vague comment from Rhule regarding the unrealistic expectation that his LT should never give up a sack 3. Duane Brown gave up 8 sacks last year; Eric Fisher gave up 7. They both had middling pass pro grades on PFF. Morgan Moses was better than both of them. These are not upgrades, regardless of the name. Even in the best case post-Becton scenario, the Jets are still taking a loss at a position that they need to be very good in order to assess Zach Wilson. The future of this franchise rests 1,000% on the shoulders of a young QB who was the worst QB when pressured last year, and among the worst against the blitz. They bet on Sauce+Becton and now they have half of that equation to work with. Sauce can be Deion Sanders this year, but if Zach Wilson is folding up like a tortoise against front side pressure this season, the season is effectively over. The mistake wasn’t drafting Sauce; the mistake was drafting Sauce because you thought you’d have Becton.

So, it’ll play out in the future - but a large part of the point IS that Ekwonu was a largely unknown commodity at the time he was drafted. You’re not stabilizing anything with a rookie who hasn’t played at this level, hasn’t played on the side you’re trying to stabilize, and came in with questions about his ability to pass protect - Becton or not. And the pass protection thing isn’t just the comment from Rhule, it was a comment from literally every person who scouted him - even the people who loved him. Now it’s playing out to some degree in camp, but that was the big question on him coming out.

If there was a mistake it was not solidifying the position in free agency, and based on how they kicked the tires pre injury it seems this has been on the list they just didn’t like the market. That’s how you get any degree of certainty to prevent the QB “folding up like a tortoise against front side pressure”, not spending the fourth pick on a college LT/G who excels as a run blocker.

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8 hours ago, T0mShane said:

We’re arguing over something that will play out in the future, so I don’t want to push it much further, but let me state that 1. It’s fine that we drafted Sauce. He should be good and CB1s are obviously premium players. 2. I think you’re wildly overstating Ekwonu’s alleged difficulties in pass pro based on one vague comment from Rhule regarding the unrealistic expectation that his LT should never give up a sack 3. Duane Brown gave up 8 sacks last year; Eric Fisher gave up 7. They both had middling pass pro grades on PFF. Morgan Moses was better than both of them. These are not upgrades, regardless of the name. Even in the best case post-Becton scenario, the Jets are still taking a loss at a position that they need to be very good in order to assess Zach Wilson. The future of this franchise rests 1,000% on the shoulders of a young QB who was the worst QB when pressured last year, and among the worst against the blitz. They bet on Sauce+Becton and now they have half of that equation to work with. Sauce can be Deion Sanders this year, but if Zach Wilson is folding up like a tortoise against front side pressure this season, the season is effectively over. The mistake wasn’t drafting Sauce; the mistake was drafting Sauce because you thought you’d have Becton.

The Jets never considered going OL in the 1st round. Ever.  It's clear that JD had DE WR and CB as priorities. A "6th" guy on a 5 man line was not gonna happen when you need help all over the place.  He just used 1st rounders on Mekhi and AVT.  

Yes it's true he bet Mekhi would be fine. He lost that bet, but maybe the thought process was that he could find a RT with a mid rounder like Mitchell, or a fill-in vet. Thankfully we're talking RT abd not replacing a LT. 

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3 minutes ago, YankeeJet22 said:

The Jets never considered going OL in the 1st round. Ever.  It's clear that JD had DE WR and CB as priorities. A "6th" guy on a 5 man line was not gonna happen when you need help all over the place.  He just used 1st rounders on Mekhi and AVT.  

Yes it's true he bet Mekhi would be fine. He lost that bet, but maybe the thought process was that he could find a RT with a mid rounder like Mitchell, or a fill-in vet. Thankfully we're talking RT abd not replacing a LT. 

yes. This was FA miss - not a draft miss. 
 

JD should have had a competent back up in house for Becton - that’s on him for sure and a pretty big miss if he doesn’t come up with a good fix now.  

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1 hour ago, YankeeJet22 said:

The Jets never considered going OL in the 1st round. Ever.  It's clear that JD had DE WR and CB as priorities. A "6th" guy on a 5 man line was not gonna happen when you need help all over the place.  He just used 1st rounders on Mekhi and AVT.  

Yes it's true he bet Mekhi would be fine. He lost that bet, but maybe the thought process was that he could find a RT with a mid rounder like Mitchell, or a fill-in vet. Thankfully we're talking RT abd not replacing a LT. 

I agree with you.  People talk as if the only option to add depth behind the two starting tackles was the first round of the draft.  It was not. 

FA was the time to add a solid veteran to back up Becton/Fant.  Instead we stuck with Chuma and McDermott.  We should have done more, imo, in FA to strengthen the spot knowing how injury prone Becton has been.  The draft was to find a young developmental guy, which we did in Max Mitchell. 

Still a couple of RT options out there, our starting RT may not be on the team yet.  Although Mitchell stepping up and winning the job would be huge -- as long as he truly wins it and does not get the nod by default.

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2 minutes ago, Lith said:

I think Will sums things up pretty well.   Encouraging to hear that Zach has stacked a few really good practices together, and most who have seen him have said he looks to be better. 

But I need to see it on Sundays before I allow myself to totally buy in.  Looking forward to the game tomorrow night to get our first look.

 

I definitely need to see it on Sundays but... if he looked terrible, I don't think the majority would think we need to see it on Sundays and there would be 100 threads knocking him / talking 2023 draft. It's just practice but it's a really good sign that he's been so consistently good throughout camp.

Couple that with all of the extra work he put in during the off-season and the team culture that seems to be brewing (that he has been a big part of building). IMO there are a lot of reasons to expect him to play well at this point

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1 minute ago, BigRy56 said:

I definitely need to see it on Sundays but... if he looked terrible, I don't think the majority would think we need to see it on Sundays and there would be 100 threads knocking him / talking 2023 draft. It's just practice but it's a really good sign that he's been so consistently good throughout camp.

Couple that with all of the extra work he put in during the off-season and the team culture that seems to be brewing (that he has been a big part of building). IMO there are a lot of reasons to expect him to play well at this point

Cannot argue wth anything you said.  50+ years of Jet fandom have made it hard for me to buy in until I see it consistently during the season.  Don't get me wrong, I am encouraged by everything we have read about his offseason and preseason, but there is still that seed of doubt htat has been cultivated by 5+ decades as a Jet fan.  

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12 hours ago, derp said:

Yeah, by no means do I think Ekwonu is a long term bust. I just firmly disagree with the notion that taking him with the purpose of meaningfully improving the team’s right tackle situation this year would’ve a good idea or the right decision.

Taking another OL would’ve been akin to the early 2010’s when the Jets took Wilkerson and Ellis as their first two picks in 2011, Coples in 2012, and then Richardson as the second of two firsts in 2013. At a certain point, just taking “bigs” stops helping your football team very much. 
 
Jets approached this draft with the intention of finding playmakers on both sides of the ball. I was not thinking Sauce at #4, I really thought it’d be their top Edge there, but in him they have a playmaking CB. One who can shut down WRs and intercept passes at 6’3” with sub 4.4 speed. So far the guy’s lived up to the hype in every way, being both a great teammate and a great player. First guy on the field every morning. Don’t know how anyone second guesses this pick except that there always has to be something to complain about. They followed that up with WR, Edge, and RB. They were clearly looking for those stars who make the highlight reels while the big guys do their jobs. You need those players to compete in this league.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that Sauce moves the needle for the team much further than any OL they could’ve taken there. Were they putting too much faith in Becton? Hindsight is pretty clear on that one. But the solution was to have a solid veteran RT in a backup role if Becton faltered, not draft another top ten OL. The fact that there are still viable OL available in free agency that could serve as replacement level RTs is all you need to know there. Take a look at the current free agent market at CB. It’s not even close. Jets should’ve shored up the OL depth better in free agency, but they’re still in position to put a good OL out on the field. If they were relying on Hall and Reed at CB and one of them was now on IR, that secondary would be in significantly worse shape than the current OL. 

I know that the First Church of the Holy Offensive Line never stops trying to create a supergroup there, but there are other, better ways to build a football team. 

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9 minutes ago, Lith said:

Cannot argue wth anything you said.  50+ years of Jet fandom have made it hard for me to buy in until I see it consistently during the season.  Don't get me wrong, I am encouraged by everything we have read about his offseason and preseason, but there is still that seed of doubt htat has been cultivated by 5+ decades as a Jet fan.  

That feeling is not going away anytime soon.... we've been programmed by jets shock therapy to respond this way. 

Hypothetically... ZW has a great year.... a year from now we will be feverishly debating whether he progresses or regresses in year 3.

 

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18 minutes ago, PorP said:

That feeling is not going away anytime soon.... we've been programmed by jets shock therapy to respond this way. 

Hypothetically... ZW has a great year.... a year from now we will be feverishly debating whether he progresses or regresses in year 3.

 

Yup.  That feeling is hard to shake.  As a Georgia grad who watched the Dawgs come so close for so many years, only to have it ripped away, usually by Alabama, I was still waiting for the epic collapse in the Natty.  Even after the pick 6 put us up two scores in the final minute, I was still thinking they can score, recover an onside kick, and score again.  I didn't truly believe until the clock showed all 0s.

It has been a while since I have found a way to reference the National Championship in a completely unrelated thread.  I guess that means I am getting pretty excited over the start of the college season in 3 weeks.  Go Dawgs!!!

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13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

We’re arguing over something that will play out in the future, so I don’t want to push it much further, but let me state that 1. It’s fine that we drafted Sauce. He should be good and CB1s are obviously premium players. 2. I think you’re wildly overstating Ekwonu’s alleged difficulties in pass pro based on one vague comment from Rhule regarding the unrealistic expectation that his LT should never give up a sack 3. Duane Brown gave up 8 sacks last year; Eric Fisher gave up 7. They both had middling pass pro grades on PFF. Morgan Moses was better than both of them. These are not upgrades, regardless of the name. Even in the best case post-Becton scenario, the Jets are still taking a loss at a position that they need to be very good in order to assess Zach Wilson. The future of this franchise rests 1,000% on the shoulders of a young QB who was the worst QB when pressured last year, and among the worst against the blitz. They bet on Sauce+Becton and now they have half of that equation to work with. Sauce can be Deion Sanders this year, but if Zach Wilson is folding up like a tortoise against front side pressure this season, the season is effectively over. The mistake wasn’t drafting Sauce; the mistake was drafting Sauce because you thought you’d have Becton.

The bigger problem may have been if you were willing to trade up for AVT why not trade back up for OT instead of WR at 10?  

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10 hours ago, derp said:

So, it’ll play out in the future - but a large part of the point IS that Ekwonu was a largely unknown commodity at the time he was drafted. You’re not stabilizing anything with a rookie who hasn’t played at this level, hasn’t played on the side you’re trying to stabilize, and came in with questions about his ability to pass protect - Becton or not. And the pass protection thing isn’t just the comment from Rhule, it was a comment from literally every person who scouted him - even the people who loved him. Now it’s playing out to some degree in camp, but that was the big question on him coming out.

If there was a mistake it was not solidifying the position in free agency, and based on how they kicked the tires pre injury it seems this has been on the list they just didn’t like the market. That’s how you get any degree of certainty to prevent the QB “folding up like a tortoise against front side pressure”, not spending the fourth pick on a college LT/G who excels as a run blocker.

I will make a bet with you, my friend. I will wager $50 to St Jude’s that Ickey Ekwonu puts up a better pass blocking grade on PFF than Sauce Gardner puts in coverage grade. Looking at some recent prospects at both positions, it appears that a number near 70 in either category is pretty good, so it’s apples to apples. 

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7 hours ago, slats said:

The fact that there are still viable OL available in free agency that could serve as replacement level RTs is all you need to know there. Take a look at the current free agent market at CB.

It’s pretty neat that viable OL are readily available in free agency, because the 2023 Jets only have Todd Hermanns, Max Mitchell, The Cap Hit Formerly Known As Mekhi Becton, and now Duane Brown under contract. Lean pickin’s.

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8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I will make a bet with you, my friend. I will wager $50 to St Jude’s that Ickey Ekwonu puts up a better pass blocking grade on PFF than Sauce Gardner puts in coverage grade. Looking at some recent prospects at both positions, it appears that a number near 70 in either category is pretty good, so it’s apples to apples. 

Done.

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