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2 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

This is the same argument I heard from year 2 Sam darnold.

And darnold had a better rookie year then Zach to boot 

What if he has a 2nd year like Josh Allen or Darnold - improved but not great?  It would be foolish to move on. That is just what I am talking about and the most likely outcome - Wilson improves from bad to mediocre or average in year 2.  You have to give him another year.  He could get better in year 3 like Allen or not like Darnold.  But if you use a #2 pick on a QB, you can't move on unless you know  and we may. not know after 2022.

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1 minute ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

What if he has a 2nd year like Josh Allen or Darnold - improved but not great?  It would be foolish to move on. That is just what I am talking about and the most likely outcome - Wilson improves from bad to mediocre or average in year 2.  You have to give him another year.  He could get better in year 3 like Allen or not like Darnold.  But if you use a #2 pick on a QB, you can't move on unless you know  and we may. not know after 2022.

Medicore is average. If he's an average NFL starter (ranked around 16), he definitely should get another year.

I've set the bar even lower. I've said several times I'm on board if he's top 16 in any of the "big 3" QB stats -- compl. %, TDs, or yards.

 

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15 minutes ago, jgb said:

Medicore is average. If he's an average NFL starter (ranked around 16), he definitely should get another year.

I've set the bar even lower. I've said several times I'm on board if he's top 16 in any of the "big 3" QB stats -- compl. %, TDs, or yards.

 

That was the point I made earlier in this thread. The possible range of outcomes for Wilson is broad.  You don't give up on him unless he stinks in 2022.  People here want to move on if he throws a pick in practice tomorrow.  They have the patience of a 2 year old.  In fact, that is the problem with many on this board that led to Slats post.  There are too many people that are just too definitive one way or the other with certain players and the team.  Becton is either  500 lbs, hates football, and is getting cut next week or they are measuring him for a bust in Canton.  How about we let him play and see how he does in 2022 - and beyond - before forming a definitive opinion?  The Jets could win anywhere from 4 to 10/11 games this season. They could win 6 and be markedly improved or win 7 or 8 and look terrible.  How about we let the season play out and see what happens and discuss 2023 in January 2023 after 17 games.  Nobody gives you a medal on this board for being right well in advance of the ultimate outcome, but too many people would rather have the instant and momentary gratification of saying "I was right, Wilson is a bust" than the years of gratification enjoyed by watching a competitive team.  Let's just take it game by game and year by year.  

Lastly, I have been a fan since 1966. I've seen some terrible stretches of football in that time.  But what happened in the past 53 years means absolutely nothing for 2022.  Not a single damn thing.  The past failures do not mean the Jets will be bad in 2022.  Darnold and Sanchez and Smith have nothing at all to do with Wilson.  I can name numerous franchises that stunk forever until they didn't.  Two of the most recent dynasties - New England and Pittsburgh - were NFL doormats for decades.  It means nothing.  12 years without the playoffs does not justify an ignorant lack of patience in 2022.  Not one bit.  The absolute right thing to do is to let this team grow up and see if they can turn into a winner.

 

 

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47 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

Do you think it's perhaps a better option is to put posters on ignore rather than try to bait and then get long time Jets fans banned from a Jets forum? I mean since we're debating the definition of "troll" in this thread... that's pretty textbook.

If your posts are sarcasm, I apologize for missing it.

Those 2 are alts or trolls - no sarcasm at all.  Those 2 and Dreams were responsible for pissing everyone off.

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4 hours ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

I don't think that's necessarily true.  We may know if he is a bust if he is just terrible again. He could  But there are a range of outcomes that won't be evident by December. He could be Improved but we won't know if he is headed for a below average, average, or above average career for another year or two after this year.  That's just the way it is.  

I just don't want Zach to get hurt.  We need to see if he has improved or if he is staying on the same trajectory.

Hate to admit it, but the MILF banging did earn him some points in my book.

WTG Playa

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1 hour ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

What if he has a 2nd year like Josh Allen or Darnold - improved but not great?  It would be foolish to move on. That is just what I am talking about and the S liely outcome - Wilson improves from bad to mediocre or average in year 2.  You have to give him another year.  He could get better in year 3 like Allen or not like Darnold.  But if you use a #2 pick on a QB, you can't move on unless you know  and we may. not know after 2022.

There are 52 other players on the team. I refuse to believe this idea if you draft a top 5 QB you must give them 3 years to destroy or lift your franchise. Its lazy thinking

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5 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

There are 52 other players on the team. I refuse to believe this idea if you draft a top 5 QB you must give them 3 years to destroy or lift your franchise. Its lazy thinking

We have all seen it…. QB is everything.  It’s been 20 years since a mediocre QB has carried a team.  Ravens, Bucs early 2000’s.  

QB is so important it cant be understated.   You dont pass on Mahommes, Watson, Russel Wilson to protect a below average QB.  

 

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10 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

There are 52 other players on the team. I refuse to believe this idea if you draft a top 5 QB you must give them 3 years to destroy or lift your franchise. Its lazy thinking

So you would have moved on from Josh Allen as GM of the Bills after 2019?  Interesting. It's just not that clear all the time.  I  didn't say give him 3 years no matter what. I said if he improves to the extent Darnold and Allen did in 2019, you give him another year.

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14 hours ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:


I agree with this.  T0m is one of a kind and I take pleasure in reading his posts.

However, too many people try to be him and it’s getting a little crazy.

Imo, the biggest problem lies with both sides.  Everyone is dug in with their opinion on the quarterback and choose to continually express those opinions in every thread.

No one is changing their minds until we see some on field action so the constant repeating of the same points that are being drug into every topic (by both sides) is so annoying.  
 

We know how you feel about Zach.  We can stop constantly defending and attacking him.

It is a dangerous road that people going down. There is only one @T0mShane, dude is an absolute legend. He does have people hating on him but he gets way more love which he deserves.

Trying to duplicate him and pull it off though? Not going to happen. 

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13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:


So if you aren’t Tom or another long-timer, you don’t get a pass?

I get the annoyance of the one-topic posters.  But it should also be ok to be consistently unhappy with a program that has by far the longest playoff drought in the league.

If you’re going to have a mod starting a thread like this and support it, I’d also hope to see a thread saying something like “It’s ok to not be super happy about the worst franchise in the league since 2010.”

Crazy that it has come to that point, but that is where we are at unfortunately.

That 2010 team underachieved big time.  :) You can absolutely start that thread though, that isn't a problem at all.

I would be willing to bet that not a lot of people have invested more of their own money in this team. The losses seem to be never-ending and are beyond painful. One day I will do a live stream after a loss, I go absolutely nuts. I am spending a lot of money of 4 seats and paying $135 to park a vehicle that gets 7 MPG on the way home after each loss.  Somehow the gas is free after the wins.

Seriously though it is okay to be mad at the team for the losses. This run is terrible.  How can they fire Rex Ryan after the league caught up to him and then go down from there. That is what the Jets did, it is embarrassing.

The point of this thread, I think, is that it is also okay to believe that good thing are possible. That is what being a fan used to be about. I have gotten a lot of feedback from people who feel they are being hit over the head when they are positive.  Back up your data, show your work, I get it.  The point remains people are allowed to feel good. People are allowed to feel bad.  

People aren't allowed to feel each other though. After the incident in 2012 we had to put that rule in place.

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5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

See, this last part at the bottom is no less of a straw man position than any others noted above re: Wilson/bust.

Also iirc on draft day it wasn't that you didn't like the pick and merely informed us of it. That is a major an after-the-fact whitewashing of a post-after-post rant repeating the same thing, as though you'd made a single, rational post detailing why you believe the pick to be misguided. It was a tantrum (and given enough time following this team, we've all had them). Even still, you weren't banned for it. More like a reaction of "OK, we get it. your 10 posts about it in this thread will do; we don't need 10 (or 50) more." TBH the place for that repeated declaration of here's-my-opinion is another thread, not derailing a thread to the point no one else can discuss it without your constant interruptions.

But even with all that -- were you banned or something? Were your posts deleted? I think the answer to both is 'no' and rather it was just more like a nudge of:

 

TBH this is/was not about curtailing fans who are benightedly failing in the required optimism. Not at least how I read the OP.

It's was rather directed the small minority of people - most notably those he'd just banned - derailing threads to harp on the same point over & over, even if (or especially if) it has nothing to do with the topic.

There's always been negative posting here about the team, about individual players, coaches, GMs, ownership, etc. This exists for every fanbase, I'd wager. Well, bfd; there's been a lot of negative results, so it comes with the territory. 

Could be I'm seeing what I want to see, but if so then - in both directions - I think I've got a lot of company there. 

Really good points here Spermie.

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10 hours ago, JiFapono said:

As the most level headed, just and fair, kind and accepting, knowledgeable and underrated poster on the board, I leave you with these words of wisdom; expression is one of life's greatest gifts.  Never change up who you are just to fit in.  Blaze your own path, unless you're lost in the woods, then, maybe follow a path if you see one but dont be surprised if you end up at a house with toothless kid playing the banjo and if you do, give him a chance, you never know, you might like it.

❤️ 

 

 

I know you copied this from your high school graduation speech.

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42 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

There are 52 other players on the team. I refuse to believe this idea if you draft a top 5 QB you must give them 3 years to destroy or lift your franchise. Its lazy thinking

It's lazy thinking to not allow any qb 3 years to develop in a system no matter where he was drafted. 

Vinny T was a failure of a QB before he became a savior here... 

Steve Young was terrible before he was great... 

Alex Smith should have been kicked out of the league.... 

Warren Moon was garbage before being a hall of famer...

Give me a break with your lousy argument

 

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On 7/31/2022 at 12:55 PM, slats said:

A lot of frustration goes into being a Jet fan. As Jet fans, we all get it. An eleven year playoff drought and coming off a failed highly touted rookie QB only to replace him with someone who -shall we say- hasn’t exactly lit the world on fire has all of us frustrated, and these are topics worthy of discussion. 
 
However, if your primary -or exclusive- interaction on this site is; Zach sucks, Becton sucks, Saleh sucks, etc., and you feel the need to call out, criticize, or insult fans of the team who have simply chosen not to give up yet on some of these guys, you are going to get time off. Some of us are actually looking forward to seeing what happens with all the new additions in the second year with this staff, fully aware of the concerns surrounding that big three and others. We’re not gonna have a few repetitive trolls ruin the site with their spamming every thread with their deeply held negative opinions. 
 
Again, we’re all for constructive criticism and there are plenty of ways to have those conversations. Just please keep it civil and keep the repetition to a minimum (odds are that we already know your opinion all too well). 
 
This really should be a time for a little optimism. A lot of new talent here, the team is 0-0, let’s see what happens, shall we? 

While I understand this sentiment, I have to point out that this is a very slippery slope

there was a lot of chatter in the past among nfl fan posters regarding “homer sites” that would ban you if you criticize the team. 
 

Even near the end of JI that was being thrown around talked about. Remember you couldnt be critical or soothe could ban you because it put his nyj press credentials in jeopardy? Or that was the thinking……

Anyways, you are proposing bans on people, but not for being racist or hurtful or threatening or perverted……

just for being unhappy with players.

slippery slope!!!!! Watch it

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52 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Tom shane being serious and making killers points. Owning everyone

Its what he does. Everyone underestimates him and all he does is win. Its his super power.

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8 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Those 2 are alts or trolls - no sarcasm at all.  Those 2 and Dreams were responsible for pissing everyone off.

That’s a really negative way to approach an online debate. Pull on the mod’s apron strings to try to get people you disagree with banned. Very Eddie Haskell. Sad this is what it’s become here. This isn’t the JN I fell in love with. A little heartbreaking TBH.

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10 hours ago, PorP said:

You have a town friar?..... fancy! 

We don't.  Sadly he died during a tax collection incident.  Happily our Town Crier pays all of his taxes on time.  

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7 hours ago, Skeptable said:

It's lazy thinking to not allow any qb 3 years to develop in a system no matter where he was drafted. 

Vinny T was a failure of a QB before he became a savior here... 

Steve Young was terrible before he was great... 

Alex Smith should have been kicked out of the league.... 

Warren Moon was garbage before being a hall of famer...

Give me a break with your lousy argument

 

And for everyone of  those guys there are 10’more who didn’t work 

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7 hours ago, Maxman said:

People aren't allowed to feel each other though. After the incident in 2012 we had to put that rule in place.

Omg with this again, when are you going to let it go?  It was consensual, damn it!!!!!!

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15 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

I read the board daily. My 1.00338 rate of posts per day since I joined 14 years ago might not show it, but I do. Too many times per day, actually. I know because my wife has very little idea of what an online discussion forum is, but whenever she sees green and white on my phone, she reminds me that I'm "wasting time" on "that jets site", and I generally agree with her.

The nice thing about having such a low posts/day rate is that one can easily go look up my posts and quickly determine where I stand without the noise of wasted posts. On record, I've vehemently disagreed with Jets brass about the drafting of many of our players going back to '06 - whether because I felt that they were simply bad players like Zach Wilson, or because I felt that there were better options at the position like in the case of Quinnen, or because I felt that the position didn't warrant a pick based on our roster and the outlook of the upcoming season like for Wilkerson. I sided with the ACM about Pennington, hated almost all of Macc's moves before it was cool to do so, and have also been critical of JD - though I really like the overall direction he's taking the team. I've rooted for losses in throwaway seasons even though the results don't favor that strategy - because objectively it's always better to have higher picks even if you don't trust the Jets to make the right pick.

All of this is to say that by no means am I against any form of constructive discourse with opposing views. However:

  1. There is a faction of posters that have proven a strong inability to accept any non-positive posts, and will deride any poster or thread for sharing a non-positive viewpoint. Those guys ******* suck and need to go.
  2. Conversely, there is also a small group of posters who have made it their entirely JN identity to only be negative and filter it through the facade of "objectivity". Given the sh*tshow this team has put on for us year-over-year, I look forward to coming to the site in August and allowing others' optimism to infiltrate my objectivity. I like the feeling of putting the past in the past, looking forward, and blindly hoping for Zach to succeed even though objectively he was the worst QB in the league last year and I've hated every moment of him being tied to the Jets since well before he was even drafted. It reminds me of being a kid again and being excited for the team. So while I find myself agreeing with the football content in most of those objective posts, I also think this is a Jets fan forum where people come to be fans. While I hope that everyone continues to post in the non-positive wherever required, I also don't think that every shred of optimism requires 5-10 reminders from each of the same posters of this team's failures. I don't see the value in that.  

Still, I think overwhelmingly, the best thing any of us can do about it is simply grow up. It's an online forum with thousands of strangers from all different walks of life, histories, personalities, and outlooks. Remember that the post that's got you all hot and bothered has absolutely no impact on your life as soon as you close your browser (bump, set...). If that doesn't work, use the ignore feature. I've never needed to use it, but it sounds like the next logical step. And if all of that doesn't work, put the phone/keyboard away and go eat a goddamn snack.

Positivity or negativity have nothing to do with objectivity.  There are very few people in the world who don't have a POV that colors their thinking.  Most of this thread dicussion is unncessary.  Not discounting some very funny posts that are ammusing and make it a fun read.  

Most of the time people who's opinions are colored by their POV and lack of objectivity can still have constructive debates about football and other topics.  We all share the human experience even if we can't pick out overpasses on a grid of photos.  This forumn is a great example.  It's 100% lack of objectivity is one of the foundemental principles of good debate.     These "arguments:" are actual engagements that most of us enjoy which is why we spend time here.  Why that needs to be pointed out is beyond my comprehension.

The forum is moderated.  The moderators can do what they wish.  They are colored by their POV.  They can ban any of us or let us play in their sandbox.  They have objective rules they follow.  Those rules are colored by their POV and objectivity may or may not matter in the end. (Where is the Guillotine emoji when you need it?)

When I grow up and become an adult I hope to spend less time watching football and talking about it with anyomous Jets fans and more time with Zach's moms best friend.  

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8 hours ago, Maxman said:

It is a dangerous road that people going down. There is only one @T0mShane, dude is an absolute legend. He does have people hating on him but he gets way more love which he deserves.

Trying to duplicate him and pull it off though? Not going to happen. 

Mac, I appreciate the kind words, but I’m not buying it. Go look at @Matt39’s mentions from yesterday and look at the vitriol he received for simply saying practice was too short. I can only presume that you and @slats are being intentionally obtuse, but you’ve outright condoned personal attacks against long-time, high engagement posters for what? A press pass? You two are ******* this up. There are better ways. 

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8 hours ago, Maxman said:

 

The point of this thread, I think, is that it is also okay to believe that good thing are possible. That is what being a fan used to be about. I have gotten a lot of feedback from people who feel they are being hit over the head when they are positive.  Back up your data, show your work, I get it.  The point remains people are allowed to feel good. People are allowed to feel bad.  

 

If the positive people are complaining it's just a sign that they haven't fully bought in yet.  This is only year 2 of the Saleh regime.  Positivity 202 is a game changer.  

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53 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

And for everyone of  those guys there are 10’more who didn’t work 

Ok, but your argument of giving up on a QB a year or 2 into their career is lazy and doesn't hold water... 

That's all I said and gave you a few examples of qbs that should have never been given any further chance by your standards and turned into HOF qbs or at the very least long term veterans that improved every year during their very long careers... 

By your metric their would be no Steve Young HOF  qb. 

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1 hour ago, jgb said:

That’s a really negative way to approach an online debate. Pull on the mod’s apron strings to try to get people you disagree with banned. Very Eddie Haskell. Sad this is what it’s become here. This isn’t the JN I fell in love with. A little heartbreaking TBH.

Which one is yours - Darnold’s forehead? 

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27 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Mac, I appreciate the kind words, but I’m not buying it. Go look at @Matt39’s mentions from yesterday and look at the vitriol he received for simply saying practice was too short. I can only presume that you and @slats are being intentionally obtuse, but you’ve outright condoned personal attacks against long-time, high engagement posters for what? A press pass? You two are ******* this up. There are better ways. 

Matt has a long time shtick of bashing Saleh and JD in every post no matter what the subject is. You know this, don't play victim

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IMHO (and others I hope) there are too many threads that get derailed by:

*posters bringing in things that are way way far away from the OP's topic.

*2 posters going at it for page after page till it's just repetitive BS

*ill considered attempts at humor just because posters hope to be seen as humorous. 

*posters who just keep engaging obvious trolls 

OP, did I miss anything or perhaps am I totally off base?

(btw I do not see trolls as a major problem since the iggy thingie works perfectly well)     

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25 minutes ago, Biggs said:

If the positive people are complaining it's just a sign that they haven't fully bought in yet.  This is only year 2 of the Saleh regime.  Positivity 202 is a game changer.  

No the positive people are complaining that every thread gets derailed by certain posters into hatred of JD or Saleh or ZW... Every thread! 

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18 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

No the positive people are complaining that every thread gets derailed by certain posters into hatred of JD or Saleh or ZW... Every thread! 

Another example of the nattering nabob of negativity infecting the board.   

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Mac, I appreciate the kind words, but I’m not buying it. Go look at @Matt39’s mentions from yesterday and look at the vitriol he received for simply saying practice was too short. I can only presume that you and @slats are being intentionally obtuse, but you’ve outright condoned personal attacks against long-time, high engagement posters for what? A press pass? You two are ******* this up. There are better ways. 

I am fine with it as long as we are still free to share our viewpoints. I’m not stressing internet folks calling me names.

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