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Flacco/Wilson hypothetical


AFJF
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The only chance this regime has of lasting past this season if Zack fails is if the roster is loaded with studs and Flacco or White coming in for Zack show that they whiffed on QB but built a beast of a team.

GM and HC need wins this year.

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8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

If you go by tweets about White and Flacco they are literally perfect.  I haven't seen a single tweet mentioning they missed anything.

That's because they're irrelevant and any mention of them is to highlight the WR's.

Every ZW miss is highlighted by tweets because it garners massive interest by miserable Jet fans.

You just said that Flacco and White are non-viable options, and now you’re saying that the people observing these practices have conspired to only issue positive tweets about them. 

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1 minute ago, Darnold's Forehead said:

I would like to know if my quarterback is struggling with things in camp (not necessarily saying he is) so that I am not completely blindsided when the season starts like I was last year.

Every decent throw is highlighted as well.

You're completely taking that out of context.  I have no problem with highlighting ZW's bad plays along with the good.

It's just pointing out that White and Flacco surely are missing too - but they're simply not be tweeted because no one cares.  We only see their positives because it's showcasing the WR's (that we do care about)

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Just now, T0mShane said:

You just said that Flacco and White are non-viable options, and now you’re saying that the people observing these practices have conspired to only issue positive tweets about them. 

I never said that - not even close.

I said they are irrelevant and the only reason you hear anything about them at all is because they're showcasing the WR's making plays.    Therefor you only see positive.

 

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4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

You're completely taking that out of context.  I have no problem with highlighting ZW's bad plays along with the good.

It's just pointing out that White and Flacco surely are missing too - but they're simply not be tweeted because no one cares.  We only see their positives because it's showcasing the WR's (that we do care about)

I get it.  My point is that you don’t have to be “miserable” to want to see Zach’s struggles.

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11 hours ago, AFJF said:

I've seen a few people suggest Flacco should start and honestly can't tell if they're serious or just trolling.  It's Zach's team.  He's starting.

However, if you're the Jets and sitting at 5-5 or something in that range and Zach gets dinged up and misses a few weeks, what do you do if the team goes 3-0 with the offense playing better while Zach is out?

Stick with Flacco or right back to Zach?

They're clearly joking/trolling.  The one thing that bugs me is that Flacco is the clear backup, even though it should be Mike White.

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Just now, Darnold's Forehead said:

I get it.  My point is that you don’t have to be “miserable” to want to see Zach’s struggles.

eh...

There are plenty of people that relish in his failures.  Just look at this board.  

Surely there are people like you too that want to hear everything.

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4 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

They're clearly joking/trolling.  The one thing that bugs me is that Flacco is the clear backup, even though it should be Mike White.

Seriously, why should it be Mike White?

You're judging this off of the 2 1/2 game performance or do you know more?  Seriously, if you have a deeper insight into MH than 2 1/2 games - I would love to hear about it. 

Because Mike White has been in the league 5 years, coaches have seen him plenty to understand his skill-set.  

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7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I never said that - not even close.

I said they are irrelevant and the only reason you hear anything about them at all is because they're showcasing the WR's making plays.    Therefor you only see positive.

 

They’ve both been picked off, too, and we’ve heard about those plays by the defensive backs. What you don’t hear about are the incompletions. 

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1 hour ago, More Cowbell said:

Didn't they hold Zach out what seemed like an extra week so he could avoid Miami (maybe not Miami but some team) 

According to a couple of fans who got this on their own, not from fact

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17 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I never said that - not even close.

I said they are irrelevant and the only reason you hear anything about them at all is because they're showcasing the WR's making plays.    Therefor you only see positive.

 

I will agree that they are irrelevant in that they aren’t competing for the starting job and this are receiving less scrutiny. That does not mean that we should distrust the first-person reports of what Zach is and isn’t showing at camp.  

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52 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You gleaned this from the tweets? You should go back and read the tweets mentioning both Flacco and White. They seem to be doing well

Yeah the same tweets we use to start threads like this and others dealing with QBs

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11 hours ago, AFJF said:

I've seen a few people suggest Flacco should start and honestly can't tell if they're serious or just trolling.  It's Zach's team.  He's starting.

However, if you're the Jets and sitting at 5-5 or something in that range and Zach gets dinged up and misses a few weeks, what do you do if the team goes 3-0 with the offense playing better while Zach is out?

Stick with Flacco or right back to Zach?

 

No, you go right back to Zach in that scenario. 5-5 is not ideal but it's not in a bad spot. 

If the Jets start off 0-5 or 1-5 along those lines. Then I'd consider pulling him. Can't keep bringing the entire team down with poor QB play. 

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3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I will agree that they are irrelevant in that they aren’t competing for the starting job and this are receiving less scrutiny. That does not mean that we should distrust the first-person reports of what Zach is and isn’t showing at camp.  

Surely.

The point I was trying to make was - you said Zach hasn't shown improvement.  I'm saying - that would be VERY tough to judge from a series of tweets.  

The coaches and his teammates say he has.

He's absolutely missed some throws - and missing those routines throws scare the sh*t out of me....But what we can't possibly see and only trust what we hear - because it's so nuanced...is the pace and speed at which he's playing, his footwork, his timing - his overall command of the offese- -  those seem to have been the crux of his issues - but his coaches and teammates seem to be saying they are better..

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10 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I think Flacco will get exposed for the old, washed bastard he is if he’s given extensive PT. That said, I think there’s going to be some decisions to make if the Jets are 1-4, 1-5 and Zach is still a deterrent to winning ball games. As we’ve all noted, this is a relatively talented Jets team and could possibly scratch out eight+ wins with a Garoppolo-like starter, so Saleh and LaFleur and Douglas have to be realistic if they get to a tipping point with Wilson.  There hasn’t been much in camp yet to make you think Zach has turned a corner, either, outside of a one-play highlight from each session. 

Yea, that highlighted part has yet to be proven.  It's still SOJ until proven otherwise.

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11 hours ago, AFJF said:

I've seen a few people suggest Flacco should start and honestly can't tell if they're serious or just trolling.  It's Zach's team.  He's starting.

However, if you're the Jets and sitting at 5-5 or something in that range and Zach gets dinged up and misses a few weeks, what do you do if the team goes 3-0 with the offense playing better while Zach is out?

Stick with Flacco or right back to Zach?

 

1. I don't play Flacco if Zach gets hurt.  I would play Mike White.

2. Zach is the starter, and should get every snap that counts in 2022.  There is no debate here IMO.

3. If Zach goes down at 5-5, and Mike White went 3-0, I would start Zach as soon as he was healthy enough to play at close to 100%.

 

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5-5 with the brutal schedule you go back to Wilson. He would have to be super awful to bench him

 making a permanent change to the depth chart means you have given up on him. 
 

too early for that. Gotta get a whole season and then decide on the off season if he stinks what to do. 
 

the only asterisk is if the team is in the hunt for a wild card and Flacco is clearly outplaying Wilson. Then Saleh has a tough choice 

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7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Surely.

The point I was trying to make was - you said Zach hasn't shown improvement.  I'm saying - that would be VERY tough to judge from a series of tweets.  

The coaches and his teammates say he has.

He's absolutely missed some throws - and missing those routines throws scare the sh*t out of me....But what we can't possibly see and only trust what we hear - because it's so nuanced...is the pace and speed at which he's playing, his footwork, his timing - his overall command of the offese- -  those seem to have been the crux of his issues - but his coaches and teammates seem to be saying they are better..

I said he hasn’t shown enough in camp to make you think he’s turned a corner. He hasn’t lit it up (allegedly), still holding the ball too long (reportedly) and still has some intermittent accuracy issues (allegedly)—all problem we saw last season. I didn’t say he hasn’t improved, I’m saying it sounds like he’s still exhibiting some questionable foibles.

 

As to the reporting, here’s the new Athletic guy on Zach’s day yesterday, which everyone seems to agree was his “best” day so far:

“Zach Wilson’s day:

The day for Wilson started off looking like it had the last two days of practice, at least during 11-on-11 drills. Conor McDermott plugged in at left tackle, and Lawson promptly bullied him so quickly and forcefully that Lawson likely would’ve sacked Wilson falling backward in a game situation. Wilson completed a pass to Moore, though, and then Corey Davis made a leaping grab at the sideline. Garrett Wilson had a catch on the next play, too. So he started 3 for 3, on top of going 3 for 4 during a brief 7-on-7 period.

Wilson’s next pass could’ve been picked but that was less Wilson’s fault than running back Ty Johnson, who tipped the ball nearly into cornerback Michael Carter II’s hands.
Wilson should’ve connected with a wide-open Uzomah on the next play but Uzomah couldn’t haul it in. It was still probably a catchable ball, but inaccurate considering how open Uzomah was in the flat.

During a session of 11-on-11 starting on their own goal line — the goal was simply to get a first down — Wilson found wide receiver Braxton Berrios (covered by Sauce Gardner) for a first down the sideline on the first play of the drive. After Flacco and Mike White took their turns, Wilson evaded another Lawson pressure to scramble for a few yards and then connected with Uzomah.

Less positively: Wilson was nearly sacked for a safety on a cornerback blitz by Gardner, though that was more on the offensive line.

In the 11-on-11 stretch, Wilson missed Wilson — covered tightly by Gardner — on the sideline with an inaccurate throw, and also attempted a fade to Davis in the end zone that failed. Cornerback D.J. Reed had Davis blanketed in coverage and it fell incomplete.

Then, of course, practice ended on the Zuniga sack.

All in all, I had Wilson completing 8-of-14 passes, with a couple incompletions that weren’t his fault.

Head coach Robert Saleh was pleased.”

 

Plenty to like if you’re a fan of Zach Wilson, plenty to be nervous about if you’re a skeptic. 
 

Also, the Athletic is pretty good stuff, and the new guy (Zach Rosenblatt) is doing a great job so far. 

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11 hours ago, GandWFan said:

Back to Zach.  Like you said, this is his team.  Every game played is valuable experience for him, to get where we need him to be.

Yes.  I hope he does develop into a consistent professional QB, but I think we'll know by game there if there is a real chance of that happening or not.  I'm not suggesting that he should be lights out by game four, but if we don't see any real improvement by then, it will be all over for his potential future as a bona fide "franchise" NFL QB.  Even if we see "flashes" here and there, it wont be any indication that he is going to work out after "more time".   If we don't see good signs of consistently sound play by week 4, we never will.

So, as far as Flacco goes... We know it is Wilson's team and we want it to be so, but... If Wilson fails, should the entire team and CS write off the season and go down with the Wilson ship, or should they try to salvage the season and get a few more wins by handing it over to Joe ???

If Wilson is awful, putting Joe in around week 5 could help the development of the new offensive players, but it would not improve their draft spot for 2023 when a new QB would top the list of needs.

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If Flacco is winning games and the Jets are in playoff contention, it's hard to imagine the Jets moving away from the "hot hand."  The exception would be if Zach was playing at a very high level and had clearly taken a big step forward prior to injury.

With all that said, the likelihood of such a scenario is pretty slim.

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42 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Seriously, why should it be Mike White?

You're judging this off of the 2 1/2 game performance or do you know more?  Seriously, if you have a deeper insight into MH than 2 1/2 games - I would love to hear about it. 

Because Mike White has been in the league 5 years, coaches have seen him plenty to understand his skill-set.  

Yes, I'm judging off the 2+ games.  Mike White's style of play can win in today's NFL.  He beat the team that was nearly Super Bowl champions.  He stunk against the Bills (who had the #1 defense in the NFL and we had a crap OL that was completely overrun) but was good against the Colts during his limited time in that game.  There was absolutely no reason to trade for Joe Flacco when we already had Mike White.

Btw, coaches have also seen Joe Flacco's performance decline for years now.

 

 

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12 hours ago, AFJF said:

I've seen a few people suggest Flacco should start and honestly can't tell if they're serious or just trolling.  It's Zach's team.  He's starting.

However, if you're the Jets and sitting at 5-5 or something in that range and Zach gets dinged up and misses a few weeks, what do you do if the team goes 3-0 with the offense playing better while Zach is out?

Stick with Flacco or right back to Zach?

 

 

12 hours ago, GandWFan said:

Back to Zach.  Like you said, this is his team.  Every game played is valuable experience for him, to get where we need him to be.

I don't think it will be the easiest call with only 4 games remaining and a shot to make the playoffs. But YES, you bring Zach back. In reality, Zach is the more talented QB, simple as that. And if he won 5 out of 10 games for you which included teams like Ravens, Steelers, Bills, Broncos, Packers, Bengals, and the Pats twice, he's 'good enough' to give him another opportunity to finish the season. 

And as some others have already pointed out. While this is a hypothetical, its a bit unrealistic. I just don't see Flacco beating the Bills and Vikings back to back. He's just not very good. If the Jets do end up winning those games with him at the helm it will be because of the running game or a superb defensive performance. 

Also, if you look at the schedule, the team will be 8-5 and Zach will be coming back against the Lions, Jags, Hawks and Phins to finish off the season and, like I said, potentially head into the playoffs. 

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14 minutes ago, FootballLove said:

Wait...so what we're saying is Zack needs to 'pull a hammy' as soon as possible so Big Joe Flacco can win his second SB MVP? Hmmm. Interesting.

 

Get it done JD

nancy kerrigan GIF

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19 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Yes.  I hope he does develop into a consistent professional QB, but I think we'll know by game there if there is a real chance of that happening or not.  I'm not suggesting that he should be lights out by game four, but if we don't see any real improvement by then, it will be all over for his potential future as a bona fide "franchise" NFL QB.  Even if we see "flashes" here and there, it wont be any indication that he is going to work out after "more time".   If we don't see good signs of consistently sound play by week 4, we never will.

So, as far as Flacco goes... We know it is Wilson's team and we want it to be so, but... If Wilson fails, should the entire team and CS write off the season and go down with the Wilson ship, or should they try to salvage the season and get a few more wins by handing it over to Joe ???

If Wilson is awful, putting Joe in around week 5 could help the development of the new offensive players, but it would not improve their draft spot for 2023 when a new QB would top the list of needs.

I disagree.  Zach gets the season.  If he hits, we are golden.  If he flops, new QB in April.  In-between, bring in a vet for competition next year.

This is how I see it.  

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18 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I said he hasn’t shown enough in camp to make you think he’s turned a corner. He hasn’t lit it up (allegedly), still holding the ball too long (reportedly) and still has some intermittent accuracy issues (allegedly)—all problem we saw last season. I didn’t say he hasn’t improved, I’m saying it sounds like he’s still exhibiting some questionable foibles.

 

As to the reporting, here’s the new Athletic guy on Zach’s day yesterday, which everyone seems to agree was his “best” day so far:

“Zach Wilson’s day:

The day for Wilson started off looking like it had the last two days of practice, at least during 11-on-11 drills. Conor McDermott plugged in at left tackle, and Lawson promptly bullied him so quickly and forcefully that Lawson likely would’ve sacked Wilson falling backward in a game situation. Wilson completed a pass to Moore, though, and then Corey Davis made a leaping grab at the sideline. Garrett Wilson had a catch on the next play, too. So he started 3 for 3, on top of going 3 for 4 during a brief 7-on-7 period.

Wilson’s next pass could’ve been picked but that was less Wilson’s fault than running back Ty Johnson, who tipped the ball nearly into cornerback Michael Carter II’s hands.
Wilson should’ve connected with a wide-open Uzomah on the next play but Uzomah couldn’t haul it in. It was still probably a catchable ball, but inaccurate considering how open Uzomah was in the flat.

During a session of 11-on-11 starting on their own goal line — the goal was simply to get a first down — Wilson found wide receiver Braxton Berrios (covered by Sauce Gardner) for a first down the sideline on the first play of the drive. After Flacco and Mike White took their turns, Wilson evaded another Lawson pressure to scramble for a few yards and then connected with Uzomah.

Less positively: Wilson was nearly sacked for a safety on a cornerback blitz by Gardner, though that was more on the offensive line.

In the 11-on-11 stretch, Wilson missed Wilson — covered tightly by Gardner — on the sideline with an inaccurate throw, and also attempted a fade to Davis in the end zone that failed. Cornerback D.J. Reed had Davis blanketed in coverage and it fell incomplete.

Then, of course, practice ended on the Zuniga sack.

All in all, I had Wilson completing 8-of-14 passes, with a couple incompletions that weren’t his fault.

Head coach Robert Saleh was pleased.”

Plenty to like if you’re a fan of Zach Wilson, plenty to be nervous about if you’re a skeptic. 
 

Also, the Athletic is pretty good stuff, and the new guy (Zach Rosenblatt) is doing a great job so far. 

Thanks for sharing - I wanted to read this but haven't pulled the trigger on paying yet until I hear more from this guy (so far I like him - but they seem to always start out strong)

I read that and think Wilson clearly had a very strong day - with two obvious misses - but otherwise solid.

Sounds like the Uzomah one was the worst which feels an awful lot like many of this throws from last year, possibly catchable - but no need for it not to be completely on target.  These are the ones that really scare me. (Point to note: reading the tweets on this one I was lead to believe it was a complete miss, it was catchable which is why we need to be careful just listening to tweets)

It doesn't seem to be a regular occurrence and that is CLEARLY a step in the right direction.

btw...there is a video of the Sauce sack and Wilson had no chance - zero.

I think the final line  - Plenty to like if you’re a fan of Zach Wilson, plenty to be nervous about if you’re a skeptic. (not sure if that was yours or his) - Which describes you and me.

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24 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Yes, I'm judging off the 2+ games.  Mike White's style of play can win in today's NFL.  He beat the team that was nearly Super Bowl champions.  He stunk against the Bills (who had the #1 defense in the NFL and we had a crap OL that was completely overrun) but was good against the Colts during his limited time in that game.  There was absolutely no reason to trade for Joe Flacco when we already had Mike White.

Btw, coaches have also seen Joe Flacco's performance decline for years now.

 

 

There is where you lose me though.

It's that your 2.5 games vs the coaches 5 years of seeing him.

To me, it's VERY clear that Jets management don't have faith in Mike White to carry the team if ZW goes down for an extended period of time.  And that that opinion is based on knowing exactly what his capabilities are...

 Yes he had one magical performance but I would think 5 years of professional assessment trumps that one game.

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49 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I said he hasn’t shown enough in camp to make you think he’s turned a corner. He hasn’t lit it up (allegedly), still holding the ball too long (reportedly) and still has some intermittent accuracy issues (allegedly)—all problem we saw last season. I didn’t say he hasn’t improved, I’m saying it sounds like he’s still exhibiting some questionable foibles.

 

As to the reporting, here’s the new Athletic guy on Zach’s day yesterday, which everyone seems to agree was his “best” day so far:

“Zach Wilson’s day:

The day for Wilson started off looking like it had the last two days of practice, at least during 11-on-11 drills. Conor McDermott plugged in at left tackle, and Lawson promptly bullied him so quickly and forcefully that Lawson likely would’ve sacked Wilson falling backward in a game situation. Wilson completed a pass to Moore, though, and then Corey Davis made a leaping grab at the sideline. Garrett Wilson had a catch on the next play, too. So he started 3 for 3, on top of going 3 for 4 during a brief 7-on-7 period.

Wilson’s next pass could’ve been picked but that was less Wilson’s fault than running back Ty Johnson, who tipped the ball nearly into cornerback Michael Carter II’s hands.
Wilson should’ve connected with a wide-open Uzomah on the next play but Uzomah couldn’t haul it in. It was still probably a catchable ball, but inaccurate considering how open Uzomah was in the flat.

During a session of 11-on-11 starting on their own goal line — the goal was simply to get a first down — Wilson found wide receiver Braxton Berrios (covered by Sauce Gardner) for a first down the sideline on the first play of the drive. After Flacco and Mike White took their turns, Wilson evaded another Lawson pressure to scramble for a few yards and then connected with Uzomah.

Less positively: Wilson was nearly sacked for a safety on a cornerback blitz by Gardner, though that was more on the offensive line.

In the 11-on-11 stretch, Wilson missed Wilson — covered tightly by Gardner — on the sideline with an inaccurate throw, and also attempted a fade to Davis in the end zone that failed. Cornerback D.J. Reed had Davis blanketed in coverage and it fell incomplete.

Then, of course, practice ended on the Zuniga sack.

All in all, I had Wilson completing 8-of-14 passes, with a couple incompletions that weren’t his fault.

Head coach Robert Saleh was pleased.”

 

Plenty to like if you’re a fan of Zach Wilson, plenty to be nervous about if you’re a skeptic. 
 

Also, the Athletic is pretty good stuff, and the new guy (Zach Rosenblatt) is doing a great job so far. 

It's pretty early in camp.  Lots of new faces.    These guys barely know each other.   Timing will come.  Coaches will correct things and guys will either step up or fall to the wayside.   Not sure why anyone should be concerned about Zach in particular at this point.  I'm more concerned that Lawson after killing himself in TC last year seems to be all gas and no breaks in TC this year.  Wouldn't shock me at all to see him end up on IR again.

Slow and steady progress.  The core guys on O are very young.  They need to grow up together.  This is part of that process.  Process matters.  Looking good the first week in pads during TC is irrelevant. 

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In all honesty we probably keep playing Zack until his 5th yr option comes up. That's the deciding point. Kinda like we did with Sam. 2nd verse, same as the 1st. Now, if JD takes a QB in the later rounds (like James Morgan only better), then sure, let him compete in TC.

BTW, when does Zack's 5th year become an issue? After his 3rd season (before the 4th season starts)? Or can JD wait until after his 4th season to pull the trigger? I THINK it's after his 3rd season, so Zack has this year and one more (in my book).

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55 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

I disagree.  Zach gets the season.  If he hits, we are golden.  If he flops, new QB in April.  In-between, bring in a vet for competition next year.

This is how I see it.  

We actually do not disagree at all.

Neither are sure if ZW will work out or not.

In the event that ZW does not work out, I am pointing out that there are two options.

1. Wilson stays in no matter what

2. They put Joe in and try to get a few wins and better develop their new offensive skill guys.

You are saying that choice 1 would be more likely, and you may  be right.

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