State of the Jets Roster - GM Comparison

[Doggin94it]

OK, this is going to be a long one. But I was thinking today about how much better I feel about the Jets as a team versus at any time in the past decade plus, and I want to assess whether that's real or I'm fooling myself. To do that, let's go through the roster position group by position group, and compare it to what we had under Tannenbaum, Idzik, and Mac. To make the comparison tougher, we'll compare it against the best year (by record) for each GM: 2011 (11-5 for Tanny), 2013 (8-8 for Idzik), and 2015 (10-6 for Mac).

I'm going to leave the QBs for last, because why not.

RB/FB

2022 Breece Hall, Michael Carter, Tevin Coleman, Ty Johnson, LaMichal Perine, Bam Knight. Nick Bawden, Trevon Wesco

      The one-two punch at the top has a chance to give the team an elite running game. Carter alone is a very good back - not a game breaker, but does everything very well, smooth, professional. Reminds me a bit of Curtis Martin in that sense - different skill set, but you know what you're getting with him and the primary difference between their rookie stats is volume/durability and efficiency. Martin averaged 4ypc over nearly 400 carries, Carter 4.4 over 150. Carter had more receptions (36 to 30) and averaged slightly more yards per reception (9 to 8.7). I'm not saying Carter is Martin and durability/volume is a hell of a skill - but if Carter was our number 1 back, there'd be no shame in that and the concern would be whether he could hold up. 

      But he's not our number 1. Hall is, and while it's early in camp, he looks like he could be a game-breaker. Fast, strong, good vision, can catch, and early reports out of camp are he looks good. Can't ask for more than this. Johnson or Coleman as the No. 3 are fine; guys who are competent NFL players you don't want to see playing a large role but are good depth backups in case of injury. The FB situation is not great, but Bawden might be competent. Wesco will be cut.

2015 Chris Ivory, Bilal Powell, Stevan Ridley, Zac Stacy. Tommy Bohannon

    A low-end group at best. I was a fan of Ivory when we got him and he had a good year for us (little north of 4ypc, 1K), but he was a low end starter. Powell was a terrific backup RB but he absolutely was a backup - that was his ceiling. Ridley and Stacy were good depth - both had had success in the past and as emergency replacements in case of injury they were decent options. Bohannon was a waste. Nothing about this group scared anyone.

2013 Ivory, Powell, Alex Green, Mike Goodson. Bohannon.

    Same analysis for Ivory and Powell - this was the year we traded for Ivory and I can see what Idzik was going for here (all young with upside) but this is just terrible. Powell led the team with 697 yards.

2011 Shonn Greene, LaDanian Tomlinson, Powell, Joe McKnight. John Conner.

    Awful. Greene had a good year (a little north of 4.0 ypc, 1k), but Tomlinson was a shell of his former self (75 carries, 250yds), Powell was barely figuring things out as a rookie, and McKnight (RIP, still horrible what happened) was useless. Conner had a great name and no game. 

Overall: You take the 2022 group without hesitation. It's better at the top than any of the comparator groups, and it's got better depth than any of them except maybe at No. 4 RB in 2015 (I'll take Coleman over Ridley/Stacy)

WR

2022 Davis, Moore, Wilson, Berrios, Smith/Mims

    Gonna limit this to the top 5 for comparison's sake. I honestly love our WR group right now - it's a terrific mix of skill sets, body types, and speed - but it's missing a true No. 1. Moore has a chance to be that guy, and if he does this group is going to make real noise. The depth is outstanding - Berrios at 4 is absurd and either Smith or Mims would be a fine number 5 WR with functional upside. It can survive an injury to one of the top 3, and even be functional if two get hurt at the same time (a group of "Davis/Berrios/Smith" would be bad but not embarrassing and still has two at least passable starting WRs).

2015 Brandon Marshall, Eric Decker, Jeremy Kerley, Quincy Enunwa, Devin Smith, Kenbrell Thompkins, Chris Owusu

    This is a really strong group. Marshall was dominant in 2015, Decker was a very good No. 2, Kerley a very good No. 3. The depth suffered once you got past them (Enunwa hadn't shown anything yet, Smith never would, Thompkins was mediocre), but that top 3 was terrific and Enunwa had real talent (couldn't stay healthy though)

2013 Santonio Holmes, Stephen Hill, Kerley, Greg Salas

    I cut this off at 5 because 12 WRs saw time on the Jets active roster that season (who can forget the immortal Ryan Spadola?) which tells you what a sh*t-show this unit was. Holmes managed all of 23 catches that year; Kerley led the team with 43. Enough said.

2011 Holmes, Plaxico Burress, Derrick Mason, Kerley, Erron Riley, Patrick Turner

     Holmes and Burress (and Mason) were obviously big names, but didn't produce very much in a run-first offense helmed by Sanchez (Burress and Holmes combined for a good WR season at 96 Rec for ~1200 yards). The depth didn't exist.

Overall: Pick your preference - do you want the top end greatness provided by Marshall in 2015 or the overall group in 2022? For roster building purposes, I'd take the 2022 group (can't guarantee no injuries, so I'll give up a little top end upside for security against downside injury risk) but it's not crazy to prefer the 2015 group given how ridiculous Marshall was that year.

TE

2022 CJ Uzomah, Tyler Conklin, Jeremy Ruckert, Yeboah/Cager

    Do we even have to talk about this? This is the best and deepest TE group the team has had in years. Maybe ever, from a depth perspective. Each of the top 3 either has been or reasonably projects to be a very good starter in the NFL.

2015 Jeff Cumberland, Kellen Davis, Wes Saxton. 2013 Kellen Winslow, Jeff Cumberland, Zach Sudfeld, Konrad Reuland. 2011 Dustin Keller, Josh Baker, Jeff Cumberland, Matthew Mulligan

Overall: Yeah, I'm not even bothering with analysis of those groups, which each had a maximum of 1 NFL caliber player in them. 2022 and it's not debatable.

OL

2022 Fant, Tomlinson, McGovern, AVT, Becton, Mitchell, Edoga, McDermott, Feeney, Herbig

    Leaving out the deeper backups, this is a good OL group with real concerns at depth OT and the durability of the starting OTs, which isn't a good combination. If everyone's healthy this should be a top 15-top 10 type OL; the interior is elite, Fant was one of the better pass blockers in the league last year, and Becton has all-world upside. Feeney and Herbig are terrific depth inside, but it's hold-your-breath time if Mitchell or Edoga need to see any time at OT. McDermott is faceplanting in camp and will likely be cut; I would not be surprised to see an addition to this group once other teams start cutting players.

2015 Brick, James Carpenter, Mangold, Willie Colon, Brenno Giacomini, Brian Winters, Brett Qvale, Dakota Dozier, Wesley Johnson, Tanner Purdum 

   4-across, this line is amazing. Brick and Mangold are HoF caliber players, Carpenter and Colon were very very good starting guards in the NFL. But after that, dear god. Brenno goddamn Giacomini started games for this team. Brian Winters was the best available depth. You can't block a pass rush with 4 players. Hot garbage.

2013 Brick, Winters, Mangold, Colon, Austin Howard, Vlad Ducasse, Purdum, Caleb Schlauderoff

   Again, we have a 4-man line, with Winters as a rookie playing a barely competent LG, and no depth. Hot garbage

2011 Brick, Matt Slauson, Mangold, Brandon Moore, Wayne Hunter, Ducasse, Purdum, Robert Turner, Schlauderoff, Colin Baxter

     OK, at least this time we're 5-across; IIRC, this was the year Hunter actually played a competent tackle. Slauson was a competent OG and Moore is vastly underrated - a terrific player.  But ZERO depth

Overall: Again, I don't think this is a close question. Brick and Mangold are all-timers, but the best "fifth man" on any of those lines was Wayne Hunter, and the backups are not NFL-caliber players. Even with the questions at OT on the 2022 team (health for Fant and Becton), if you force me to roll with one of those groups it's going to be this year's

DL

2022: Carl Lawson, Quinnen Williams, Sheldon Rankins, John Franklin Myers, Jermaine Johnson II, Bryce Huff, Jacob Martin, Vinny Curry, Jonathon Marshall, Nathan Sheppard, Solomon Thomas, Michael Clemmons

     That's 12 guys, some of whom are going to have to be cut (likely Curry and Sheppard if I had to handicap it today), and I left out other depth guys currently on the roster. I've got some concern about run-stuffing DT and high-end pass rush (need Lawson to be that guy) but this is a deep, skilled, and versatile group.

2015: Calvin Pace, Quinton Coples, Mike Catapano, Stephen Bowen, Leonard Williams, Sheldon Richardson, Muhammad Wilkerson, Damon Harrison, Leger Douzable, TJ Barnes

     Pro football reference has guys like Pace and Coples listed at DE, though they were technically 3-4 LBs. Since the D has changed, it's easiest to compare the groups this way, so I'll run with it. The 2015 DL had an embarrassment of high-end riches: top draft picks (Wilkerson, Williams, and Richardson) and a UDFA who developed into the best run-stuffer in the NFL (Harrison). Douzable was a very good backup, Catapano was an energy guy, Bowen was competent. Pace was a good edge setter. This was a good group, Mac's horrific misallocation of resources and Wilkerson's complete disappearing act aside, but it had no real pass rush threat, even from the 3-4 OLBs.

2013 Pace, Coples, Wilkerson, Richardson, Harrison, Douzable, Kenrick Ellis, Scott Solomon

    Basically the same group, just with Ellis instead of Williams and Solomon as the deeper depth guy. Still no pass rush, still an elite 3-4 DL with Wilk, Richardson, and Harrison, still a misallocation of resources.

2011 Bryan Thomas, Pace, Wilkerson, Ellis, Sione Pouha, Ropati Pitoitua, Jamaal Westerman, Mike DeVito, Martin Tevaseu, Aaron Maybin, Marcus Dixon, Eddie Jones

     Thomas got a lot of grief for not being a top pass rusher and for not being Ed Reed, but he was a good player. Pouha was an elite nose by then, and Wilkerson was about to have a terrific rookie year. DeVito was a very good lunch-pail guy.

Overall: Again, to me, it's 2022 and not close. For all the assets poured into that 2015 DL, it still generated no pass rush and we had no room to play our 4 best guys at the same time. The depth in 2022 is much, much better than any of those other years, and the top-end pass rush is at least as good.

LB

2022 CJ Mosely, Quincy Williams, Kwon Alexander, Jamien Sherwood, Hamsa Nasirildeen, Marcel Harris, Del'Shawn Phillips, DQ Thomas

    The LB group is one of the real concerns on this team, though adding Alexander was big. Mosely is overpaid but still a very good player. Williams played well last year, let's see how he does. The depth is an abomination; if any of those top 3 get hurt we'll be hoping for huge growth out of Sherwood/Nasirildeen to just reach "mediocre LB"

2015 David Harris, Demarrio Davis, Erin Henderson, Lorenzo Mauldin, Jamarri Lattimore, TJ Reilly

    Again, Pace really belongs in this group, and it's hard to compare a 4-3 LB group to a 3-4 group. Harris is an all-time Jet (on the downside of his career by then, but still), Henderson was a competent vet. Davis was not yet good, and nobody else in this group ever would be.

2013 Harris, Davis, Ricky Sapp, Antwan Barnes, Nick Bellore, Jermaine Cunningham, Troy Davis, Garrett McIntyre

     This group is a dumpster fire; aside from Harris, the best players are a not-yet-good Demarrio Davis and Nick Bellore, who was such a good LB that he transitioned to FB a few years later. Again, Pace and Coples were the OLBs so it wasn't a total disaster, but ... not great, Bob!

2011 Harris, Bart Scott, McIntyre, Bellore, Josh Mauga

    Now that's a good group. Harris and Scott were elite ILBs paired with Thomas and Pace on the outside. This was a punishing LB group. No depth, though.

Overall: It's a closer question than I expected it to be given how light that 2011 group is behind the 4 starters, and it's not like you could transition them into this system. But as a group, I'll take 2011 over 2022.

CB

2022 Gardner, Reed, Hall, Carter, Echols, Guidry, Dunn

   This is a good, good group - what a change from last year. Carter's a terrific slot CB, Guidry is good depth behind him. Reed was a good FA signing and a solid No. 2 CB, while Gardner looks like he's going to be a real one. Hall and Echols were starting last year and are elite depth pieces. It's missing a lockdown number 1 right now, but maybe it isn't. We'll see.

2015 Darelle Revis, Antonio Cromartie, Buster Skrine, Marcus Williams, Dee Milliner, Dex McDougle, Darrin Walls

    The shells of Revis and Cromartie, Skrine the penalty machine, Milliner and McDougle in the trainer's room. Revis was OK that year but nowhere near the elite CB he was in prior years. Decent starters, terrible depth.

2013 Cro, Milliner, Walls, Kyle Wilson, Isaiah Trufant, Ellis Lankster

     Avert your eyes, this is ugly as sin. Cro was still a top-tier CB at that point, but he was the only NFL player at the position

2011 Revis, Cro, Brodney Pool, Wilson, Trufant, Lankster, Marquice Cole

    That's what I'm talking about. The depth is terrible but that doesn't matter as much when you have prime Revis and Cro locking down WRs 1-on-1; it gave Rex the ability to roll coverages to help on other players.

Overall: Give me 2011 because of just how crazy elite Revis and Cro were, but 3-6 2022 crushes the 2011 group and it's not a discussion.

S

2022 LaMarcus Joyner, Jordan Whitehead, Ashtyn Davis, Jason Pinnock, Elijah Riley, Will Parks

    Another area of concern - Whitehead is a good player and Joyner was elite a few years ago but our starters are low-end, overall, and our depth is a mix of unproven and unexpected. If Pinnock can keep growing that'll help, but Davis has been a disappointment and Riley and Parks are in the "nice story, who?" category.

2015 Calvin Pryor, Rontez Miles, Dion Bailey, Ronald Martin, Marcus Gilchrist, Jaiqwan Jarrett

    Ouch. This is a terrible group.

2013 Ed Reed, Dawan Landry, Antonio Allen, Jarrett, Josh Bush

    Not terrible. Reed was a shell of his former self but Allen and Landry were passable players, as were Bush and Jarrett.

2011  Jim Leonhard, Eric Smith, Emmanuel Cook, Tracy Wilson

     Leonhard and Smith were try-hard players underappreciated while they were here, but nothing particularly terrifying for opposing QBs. Depth was non-existent.

Overall: Can't believe I'm saying this but the 2022 group is the best of all of these. Wow ... was not expecting that when I started looking. 2013 has a similar lack of high-end players and worse depth, and same for 2011.

ST

2022 Hennessey, Mann, Zeurlein/Piniero, Berrios, Hardee

     Hennesey is an excellent long snapper and Mann is a competent punter. The K situation is obviously a huge concern. Berrios is a terrific return guy and Hardee an elite gunner, but also I doubt he makes the team.

2015 Purdum, Weatherford/Quigley, Folk/Bullock

     Fine at LS, kicker was good. Punter was fine. 

2013 Purdum, Folk, Quigley

    Quigley was terrible. Folk was very good.

2011 Purdum, Folk, TJ Conley

    Conley was terrible, Folk was excellent

Overall: I'll take 2011 if forced to choose - better a mediocre to bad punter than a mediocre to bad kicker - but if we can get competent kicking this year from one of Zeurlein or Pineiro it'll be 2022.

QB

2022 Zach, Flacco, White

     This has been talked to death; this season turns on what Wilson ends up as. Backups are as good as could be asked for.

2015 Fitz, Geno

     Carried only 2 QBs and Fitz had a magical season. 

2013 Geno, Matt Simms

     I don't want to talk about it.

2011 Sanchez, Brunnell

     Sanchez was where Zach is this year - the high draft pick whose development would be the key to the year. He ended up playing decent enough as a caretaker QB to get regular season wins, but not good enough to finish the job. Brunell was a 41 year old statue

Overall: The only question is whether you take Sanchez's known floor over Zach's potential (and potential collapse), but overall the 2022 QB room is the best of these.

 

What's my takeaway on all of this? Joe Douglas has done an outstanding job, and for the first time in forever we're fielding a full NFL team. The depth on this roster is crazy, and there are few true holes (run stuffing DT? LB depth? True No. 1 WR/CB?). Outcomes this year turn on Wilson, but position group for position group I'll take this 2022 roster ahead of the 2011 team that went 11-5, and there's no reason Wilson can't be at least as good this year as Sanchez was in 2011. This is a goooood roster.

 

[CSNY]

Well thought out and nicely summarized?

[Jet2020]

Jets went 11-5 in 2010. Wrong year. That was one of the best Jets roster in a while. 

Offense: Sanchez, LT, Braylon, Holmes, Keller, Brick, Mangold, woody, Moore, Slauson

That’s an average group but it’s probably our best since then. 

[Jet2020]

2010 Defense: Ellis, Pouha, Devito, Bryan Thomas, Bart Scott, David Harris, Pace, Revis, Cro, Jim Leonhard and Poole. 

Remember, this was the year when Revis had that magical year and Cro was also amazing. I could be wrong but I think we had the best D in the league that year. 

[#27TheDominator]

35 minutes ago, CSNY said:

Well thought out and nicely summarized?

Summarized?  

[CSNY]

4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Summarized?  

After OP made cases for each year his summary of why he picked one over the other was nicely done 

[nycdan]

On 8/5/2022 at 12:40 PM, Jet2020 said:

Jets went 11-5 in 2010. Wrong year. That was one of the best Jets roster in a while. 

Offense: Sanchez, LT, Braylon, Holmes, Keller, Brick, Mangold, woody, Moore, Slauson

That’s an average group but it’s probably our best since then. 

The OL in 2010 was the best we've had in 40 years, maybe ever.

Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore, Woody.  Solid all the way across.  No way I take this year's group over that one.

 

[Edit: turns out it was 2009 we had those 5 guys]

[#27TheDominator]

I appreciate @Doggin94it going through the work, but...

I will pick through the whole thing later, but my initial feeling is that this is some rose colored glasses sh*t and I didn't even get to the defense yet.

RB is better than Greene and Tomlinson?  Or Ivory?  You are banking on Breece Hall.  I love the potential, but the dude has not played a down. 

WR?  2015 had two WRs better than anybody on the roster now.  These guys have the potential to be great, but they haven't done anything yet.  Think about it - in 2015 we had two pro bowlers and added Devin Smith who through camp looked good and probably was a similarly rated prospect to Moore.  Kerley was probably as good as Berrios.  The sky is the limit for Moore, Wilson and even Mims, but none of them have tapped much of it yet.

You are not going to even bother looking at the TEs, but compare these scrubs to Keller?  Keller had 800+ yards receiving in a season.  He retired at 28 and probably had more career yards than Conklin and Uzomah combined.  Conklin had a nice year last year 500 yards, but he has 4 career TDs in 4 seasons and Cumberland had three seasons better than his 2nd best year.  Ruckert seems like he will be good, but I heard the same about Jace Amaro.

OL?  Hunter was considered a great extra lineman for years before he flopped.  He had even played well down the stretch in 2010.  Right now AVT and Becton are just potential.  I like what I have seem from AVT, but I don't think he rated so well.  Tomlinson was a nice addition and McGovern seems good, but I don't think there is any reason to think these guys are better than line with a prime Brick, Mangold and Brandon Moore. 

I like what Douglas is doing with the roster, but I have been wrong before.  They have to prove it on the field.  Right now there is a ton of youth, and guys that we can't be sure of in the system.  Can they be better than we've had?  Sure.  Are they?  I'm sure not ready to crown them and so much depends on Wilson.  I didn't even look at the D analysis yet, but man they sucked last year.  They will have to take a huge leap to reach SUCK.  They have a bunch to prove before being compared to Rex and Bowles better years.

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Summarized?  

To be fair, this was a Cliff's Notes version for ol' Spermy.  @Sperm Edwards

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

RB is better than Greene and Tomlinson?  Or Ivory?  You are banking on Breece Hall.  I love the potential, but the dude has not played a down. 

Greene sucked.  I loved Ivory and the way he ran with reckless abandonment but he wasn't a pass catcher.  LT still had some juice left in the tank but he was a shadow of what he was in the mid-2000s.

You don't really need to see a RB play at the pro level yet to determine if he'll be a success out of the gates.  It's pretty much a no-brainer that Hall will.  Especially in a system like ours where its as "plug n play" as it gets for RBs.  I don't think this team has had a RB with his skill level since perhaps Freeman McNeil. 

So, yeah, without seeing him play a down, I'm willing to say he and Michael Carter are the best duo we've seen in a long time, and perhaps ever.

[k-met57]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

OK, this is going to be a long one. But I was thinking today about how much better I feel about the Jets as a team versus at any time in the past decade plus, and I want to assess whether that's real or I'm fooling myself. To do that, let's go through the roster position group by position group, and compare it to what we had under Tannenbaum, Idzik, and Mac. To make the comparison tougher, we'll compare it against the best year (by record) for each GM: 2011 (11-5 for Tanny), 2013 (8-8 for Idzik), and 2015 (10-6 for Mac).

I'm going to leave the QBs for last, because why not.

RB/FB

2022 Breece Hall, Michael Carter, Tevin Coleman, Ty Johnson, LaMichal Perine, Bam Knight. Nick Bawden, Trevon Wesco

      The one-two punch at the top has a chance to give the team an elite running game. Carter alone is a very good back - not a game breaker, but does everything very well, smooth, professional. Reminds me a bit of Curtis Martin in that sense - different skill set, but you know what you're getting with him and the primary difference between their rookie stats is volume/durability and efficiency. Martin averaged 4ypc over nearly 400 carries, Carter 4.4 over 150. Carter had more receptions (36 to 30) and averaged slightly more yards per reception (9 to 8.7). I'm not saying Carter is Martin and durability/volume is a hell of a skill - but if Carter was our number 1 back, there'd be no shame in that and the concern would be whether he could hold up. 

      But he's not our number 1. Hall is, and while it's early in camp, he looks like he could be a game-breaker. Fast, strong, good vision, can catch, and early reports out of camp are he looks good. Can't ask for more than this. Johnson or Coleman as the No. 3 are fine; guys who are competent NFL players you don't want to see playing a large role but are good depth backups in case of injury. The FB situation is not great, but Bawden might be competent. Wesco will be cut.

2015 Chris Ivory, Bilal Powell, Stevan Ridley, Zac Stacy. Tommy Bohannon

    A low-end group at best. I was a fan of Ivory when we got him and he had a good year for us (little north of 4ypc, 1K), but he was a low end starter. Powell was a terrific backup RB but he absolutely was a backup - that was his ceiling. Ridley and Stacy were good depth - both had had success in the past and as emergency replacements in case of injury they were decent options. Bohannon was a waste. Nothing about this group scared anyone.

2013 Ivory, Powell, Alex Green, Mike Goodson. Bohannon.

    Same analysis for Ivory and Powell - this was the year we traded for Ivory and I can see what Idzik was going for here (all young with upside) but this is just terrible. Powell led the team with 697 yards.

2011 Shonn Greene, LaDanian Tomlinson, Powell, Joe McKnight. John Conner.

    Awful. Greene had a good year (a little north of 4.0 ypc, 1k), but Tomlinson was a shell of his former self (75 carries, 250yds), Powell was barely figuring things out as a rookie, and McKnight (RIP, still horrible what happened) was useless. Conner had a great name and no game. 

Overall: You take the 2022 group without hesitation. It's better at the top than any of the comparator groups, and it's got better depth than any of them except maybe at No. 4 RB in 2015 (I'll take Coleman over Ridley/Stacy)

WR

2022 Davis, Moore, Wilson, Berrios, Smith/Mims

    Gonna limit this to the top 5 for comparison's sake. I honestly love our WR group right now - it's a terrific mix of skill sets, body types, and speed - but it's missing a true No. 1. Moore has a chance to be that guy, and if he does this group is going to make real noise. The depth is outstanding - Berrios at 4 is absurd and either Smith or Mims would be a fine number 5 WR with functional upside. It can survive an injury to one of the top 3, and even be functional if two get hurt at the same time (a group of "Davis/Berrios/Smith" would be bad but not embarrassing and still has two at least passable starting WRs).

2015 Brandon Marshall, Eric Decker, Jeremy Kerley, Quincy Enunwa, Devin Smith, Kenbrell Thompkins, Chris Owusu

    This is a really strong group. Marshall was dominant in 2015, Decker was a very good No. 2, Kerley a very good No. 3. The depth suffered once you got past them (Enunwa hadn't shown anything yet, Smith never would, Thompkins was mediocre), but that top 3 was terrific and Enunwa had real talent (couldn't stay healthy though)

2013 Santonio Holmes, Stephen Hill, Kerley, Greg Salas

    I cut this off at 5 because 12 WRs saw time on the Jets active roster that season (who can forget the immortal Ryan Spadola?) which tells you what a sh*t-show this unit was. Holmes managed all of 23 catches that year; Kerley led the team with 43. Enough said.

2011 Holmes, Plaxico Burress, Derrick Mason, Kerley, Erron Riley, Patrick Turner

     Holmes and Burress (and Mason) were obviously big names, but didn't produce very much in a run-first offense helmed by Sanchez (Burress and Holmes combined for a good WR season at 96 Rec for ~1200 yards). The depth didn't exist.

Overall: Pick your preference - do you want the top end greatness provided by Marshall in 2015 or the overall group in 2022? For roster building purposes, I'd take the 2022 group (can't guarantee no injuries, so I'll give up a little top end upside for security against downside injury risk) but it's not crazy to prefer the 2015 group given how ridiculous Marshall was that year.

TE

2022 CJ Uzomah, Tyler Conklin, Jeremy Ruckert, Yeboah/Cager

    Do we even have to talk about this? This is the best and deepest TE group the team has had in years. Maybe ever, from a depth perspective. Each of the top 3 either has been or reasonably projects to be a very good starter in the NFL.

2015 Jeff Cumberland, Kellen Davis, Wes Saxton. 2013 Kellen Winslow, Jeff Cumberland, Zach Sudfeld, Konrad Reuland. 2011 Dustin Keller, Josh Baker, Jeff Cumberland, Matthew Mulligan

Overall: Yeah, I'm not even bothering with analysis of those groups, which each had a maximum of 1 NFL caliber player in them. 2022 and it's not debatable.

OL

2022 Fant, Tomlinson, McGovern, AVT, Becton, Mitchell, Edoga, McDermott, Feeney, Herbig

    Leaving out the deeper backups, this is a good OL group with real concerns at depth OT and the durability of the starting OTs, which isn't a good combination. If everyone's healthy this should be a top 15-top 10 type OL; the interior is elite, Fant was one of the better pass blockers in the league last year, and Becton has all-world upside. Feeney and Herbig are terrific depth inside, but it's hold-your-breath time if Mitchell or Edoga need to see any time at OT. McDermott is faceplanting in camp and will likely be cut; I would not be surprised to see an addition to this group once other teams start cutting players.

2015 Brick, James Carpenter, Mangold, Willie Colon, Brenno Giacomini, Brian Winters, Brett Qvale, Dakota Dozier, Wesley Johnson, Tanner Purdum 

   4-across, this line is amazing. Brick and Mangold are HoF caliber players, Carpenter and Colon were very very good starting guards in the NFL. But after that, dear god. Brenno goddamn Giacomini started games for this team. Brian Winters was the best available depth. You can't block a pass rush with 4 players. Hot garbage.

2013 Brick, Winters, Mangold, Colon, Austin Howard, Vlad Ducasse, Purdum, Caleb Schlauderoff

   Again, we have a 4-man line, with Winters as a rookie playing a barely competent LG, and no depth. Hot garbage

2011 Brick, Matt Slauson, Mangold, Brandon Moore, Wayne Hunter, Ducasse, Purdum, Robert Turner, Schlauderoff, Colin Baxter

     OK, at least this time we're 5-across; IIRC, this was the year Hunter actually played a competent tackle. Slauson was a competent OG and Moore is vastly underrated - a terrific player.  But ZERO depth

Overall: Again, I don't think this is a close question. Brick and Mangold are all-timers, but the best "fifth man" on any of those lines was Wayne Hunter, and the backups are not NFL-caliber players. Even with the questions at OT on the 2022 team (health for Fant and Becton), if you force me to roll with one of those groups it's going to be this year's

DL

2022: Carl Lawson, Quinnen Williams, Sheldon Rankins, John Franklin Myers, Jermaine Johnson II, Bryce Huff, Jacob Martin, Vinny Curry, Jonathon Marshall, Nathan Sheppard, Solomon Thomas, Michael Clemmons

     That's 12 guys, some of whom are going to have to be cut (likely Curry and Sheppard if I had to handicap it today), and I left out other depth guys currently on the roster. I've got some concern about run-stuffing DT and high-end pass rush (need Lawson to be that guy) but this is a deep, skilled, and versatile group.

2015: Calvin Pace, Quinton Coples, Mike Catapano, Stephen Bowen, Leonard Williams, Sheldon Richardson, Muhammad Wilkerson, Damon Harrison, Leger Douzable, TJ Barnes

     Pro football reference has guys like Pace and Coples listed at DE, though they were technically 3-4 LBs. Since the D has changed, it's easiest to compare the groups this way, so I'll run with it. The 2015 DL had an embarrassment of high-end riches: top draft picks (Wilkerson, Williams, and Richardson) and a UDFA who developed into the best run-stuffer in the NFL (Harrison). Douzable was a very good backup, Catapano was an energy guy, Bowen was competent. Pace was a good edge setter. This was a good group, Mac's horrific misallocation of resources and Wilkerson's complete disappearing act aside, but it had no real pass rush threat, even from the 3-4 OLBs.

2013 Pace, Coples, Wilkerson, Richardson, Harrison, Douzable, Kenrick Ellis, Scott Solomon

    Basically the same group, just with Ellis instead of Williams and Solomon as the deeper depth guy. Still no pass rush, still an elite 3-4 DL with Wilk, Richardson, and Harrison, still a misallocation of resources.

2011 Bryan Thomas, Pace, Wilkerson, Ellis, Sione Pouha, Ropati Pitoitua, Jamaal Westerman, Mike DeVito, Martin Tevaseu, Aaron Maybin, Marcus Dixon, Eddie Jones

     Thomas got a lot of grief for not being a top pass rusher and for not being Ed Reed, but he was a good player. Pouha was an elite nose by then, and Wilkerson was about to have a terrific rookie year. DeVito was a very good lunch-pail guy.

Overall: Again, to me, it's 2022 and not close. For all the assets poured into that 2015 DL, it still generated no pass rush and we had no room to play our 4 best guys at the same time. The depth in 2022 is much, much better than any of those other years, and the top-end pass rush is at least as good.

LB

2022 CJ Mosely, Quincy Williams, Kwon Alexander, Jamien Sherwood, Hamsa Nasirildeen, Marcel Harris, Del'Shawn Phillips, DQ Thomas

    The LB group is one of the real concerns on this team, though adding Alexander was big. Mosely is overpaid but still a very good player. Williams played well last year, let's see how he does. The depth is an abomination; if any of those top 3 get hurt we'll be hoping for huge growth out of Sherwood/Nasirildeen to just reach "mediocre LB"

2015 David Harris, Demarrio Davis, Erin Henderson, Lorenzo Mauldin, Jamarri Lattimore, TJ Reilly

    Again, Pace really belongs in this group, and it's hard to compare a 4-3 LB group to a 3-4 group. Harris is an all-time Jet (on the downside of his career by then, but still), Henderson was a competent vet. Davis was not yet good, and nobody else in this group ever would be.

2013 Harris, Davis, Ricky Sapp, Antwan Barnes, Nick Bellore, Jermaine Cunningham, Troy Davis, Garrett McIntyre

     This group is a dumpster fire; aside from Harris, the best players are a not-yet-good Demarrio Davis and Nick Bellore, who was such a good LB that he transitioned to FB a few years later. Again, Pace and Coples were the OLBs so it wasn't a total disaster, but ... not great, Bob!

2011 Harris, Bart Scott, McIntyre, Bellore, Josh Mauga

    Now that's a good group. Harris and Scott were elite ILBs paired with Thomas and Pace on the outside. This was a punishing LB group. No depth, though.

Overall: It's a closer question than I expected it to be given how light that 2011 group is behind the 4 starters, and it's not like you could transition them into this system. But as a group, I'll take 2011 over 2022.

CB

2022 Gardner, Reed, Hall, Carter, Echols, Guidry, Dunn

   This is a good, good group - what a change from last year. Carter's a terrific slot CB, Guidry is good depth behind him. Reed was a good FA signing and a solid No. 2 CB, while Gardner looks like he's going to be a real one. Hall and Echols were starting last year and are elite depth pieces. It's missing a lockdown number 1 right now, but maybe it isn't. We'll see.

2015 Darelle Revis, Antonio Cromartie, Buster Skrine, Marcus Williams, Dee Milliner, Dex McDougle, Darrin Walls

    The shells of Revis and Cromartie, Skrine the penalty machine, Milliner and McDougle in the trainer's room. Revis was OK that year but nowhere near the elite CB he was in prior years. Decent starters, terrible depth.

2013 Cro, Milliner, Walls, Kyle Wilson, Isaiah Trufant, Ellis Lankster

     Avert your eyes, this is ugly as sin. Cro was still a top-tier CB at that point, but he was the only NFL player at the position

2011 Revis, Cro, Brodney Pool, Wilson, Trufant, Lankster, Marquice Cole

    That's what I'm talking about. The depth is terrible but that doesn't matter as much when you have prime Revis and Cro locking down WRs 1-on-1; it gave Rex the ability to roll coverages to help on other players.

Overall: Give me 2011 because of just how crazy elite Revis and Cro were, but 3-6 2022 crushes the 2011 group and it's not a discussion.

S

2022 LaMarcus Joyner, Jordan Whitehead, Ashtyn Davis, Jason Pinnock, Elijah Riley, Will Parks

    Another area of concern - Whitehead is a good player and Joyner was elite a few years ago but our starters are low-end, overall, and our depth is a mix of unproven and unexpected. If Pinnock can keep growing that'll help, but Davis has been a disappointment and Riley and Parks are in the "nice story, who?" category.

2015 Calvin Pryor, Rontez Miles, Dion Bailey, Ronald Martin, Marcus Gilchrist, Jaiqwan Jarrett

    Ouch. This is a terrible group.

2013 Ed Reed, Dawan Landry, Antonio Allen, Jarrett, Josh Bush

    Not terrible. Reed was a shell of his former self but Allen and Landry were passable players, as were Bush and Jarrett.

2011  Jim Leonhard, Eric Smith, Emmanuel Cook, Tracy Wilson

     Leonhard and Smith were try-hard players underappreciated while they were here, but nothing particularly terrifying for opposing QBs. Depth was non-existent.

Overall: Can't believe I'm saying this but the 2022 group is the best of all of these. Wow ... was not expecting that when I started looking. 2013 has a similar lack of high-end players and worse depth, and same for 2011.

ST

2022 Hennessey, Mann, Zeurlein/Piniero, Berrios, Hardee

     Hennesey is an excellent long snapper and Mann is a competent punter. The K situation is obviously a huge concern. Berrios is a terrific return guy and Hardee an elite gunner, but also I doubt he makes the team.

2015 Purdum, Weatherford/Quigley, Folk/Bullock

     Fine at LS, kicker was good. Punter was fine. 

2013 Purdum, Folk, Quigley

    Quigley was terrible. Folk was very good.

2011 Purdum, Folk, TJ Conley

    Conley was terrible, Folk was excellent

Overall: I'll take 2011 if forced to choose - better a mediocre to bad punter than a mediocre to bad kicker - but if we can get competent kicking this year from one of Zeurlein or Pineiro it'll be 2022.

QB

2022 Zach, Flacco, White

     This has been talked to death; this season turns on what Wilson ends up as. Backups are as good as could be asked for.

2015 Fitz, Geno

     Carried only 2 QBs and Fitz had a magical season. 

2013 Geno, Matt Simms

     I don't want to talk about it.

2011 Sanchez, Brunnell

     Sanchez was where Zach is this year - the high draft pick whose development would be the key to the year. He ended up playing decent enough as a caretaker QB to get regular season wins, but not good enough to finish the job. Brunell was a 41 year old statue

Overall: The only question is whether you take Sanchez's known floor over Zach's potential (and potential collapse), but overall the 2022 QB room is the best of these.

 

What's my takeaway on all of this? Joe Douglas has done an outstanding job, and for the first time in forever we're fielding a full NFL team. The depth on this roster is crazy, and there are few true holes (run stuffing DT? LB depth? True No. 1 WR/CB?). Outcomes this year turn on Wilson, but position group for position group I'll take this 2022 roster ahead of the 2011 team that went 11-5, and there's no reason Wilson can't be at least as good this year as Sanchez was in 2011. This is a goooood roster.

 

It really all comes down to Wilson. This roster can look amazing, or it may not matter....Wilson has to hit.

[Skeptable]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

OK, this is going to be a long one. But I was thinking today about how much better I feel about the Jets as a team versus at any time in the past decade plus, and I want to assess whether that's real or I'm fooling myself. To do that, let's go through the roster position group by position group, and compare it to what we had under Tannenbaum, Idzik, and Mac. To make the comparison tougher, we'll compare it against the best year (by record) for each GM: 2011 (11-5 for Tanny), 2013 (8-8 for Idzik), and 2015 (10-6 for Mac).

I'm going to leave the QBs for last, because why not.

RB/FB

2022 Breece Hall, Michael Carter, Tevin Coleman, Ty Johnson, LaMichal Perine, Bam Knight. Nick Bawden, Trevon Wesco

      The one-two punch at the top has a chance to give the team an elite running game. Carter alone is a very good back - not a game breaker, but does everything very well, smooth, professional. Reminds me a bit of Curtis Martin in that sense - different skill set, but you know what you're getting with him and the primary difference between their rookie stats is volume/durability and efficiency. Martin averaged 4ypc over nearly 400 carries, Carter 4.4 over 150. Carter had more receptions (36 to 30) and averaged slightly more yards per reception (9 to 8.7). I'm not saying Carter is Martin and durability/volume is a hell of a skill - but if Carter was our number 1 back, there'd be no shame in that and the concern would be whether he could hold up. 

      But he's not our number 1. Hall is, and while it's early in camp, he looks like he could be a game-breaker. Fast, strong, good vision, can catch, and early reports out of camp are he looks good. Can't ask for more than this. Johnson or Coleman as the No. 3 are fine; guys who are competent NFL players you don't want to see playing a large role but are good depth backups in case of injury. The FB situation is not great, but Bawden might be competent. Wesco will be cut.

2015 Chris Ivory, Bilal Powell, Stevan Ridley, Zac Stacy. Tommy Bohannon

    A low-end group at best. I was a fan of Ivory when we got him and he had a good year for us (little north of 4ypc, 1K), but he was a low end starter. Powell was a terrific backup RB but he absolutely was a backup - that was his ceiling. Ridley and Stacy were good depth - both had had success in the past and as emergency replacements in case of injury they were decent options. Bohannon was a waste. Nothing about this group scared anyone.

2013 Ivory, Powell, Alex Green, Mike Goodson. Bohannon.

    Same analysis for Ivory and Powell - this was the year we traded for Ivory and I can see what Idzik was going for here (all young with upside) but this is just terrible. Powell led the team with 697 yards.

2011 Shonn Greene, LaDanian Tomlinson, Powell, Joe McKnight. John Conner.

    Awful. Greene had a good year (a little north of 4.0 ypc, 1k), but Tomlinson was a shell of his former self (75 carries, 250yds), Powell was barely figuring things out as a rookie, and McKnight (RIP, still horrible what happened) was useless. Conner had a great name and no game. 

Overall: You take the 2022 group without hesitation. It's better at the top than any of the comparator groups, and it's got better depth than any of them except maybe at No. 4 RB in 2015 (I'll take Coleman over Ridley/Stacy)

WR

2022 Davis, Moore, Wilson, Berrios, Smith/Mims

    Gonna limit this to the top 5 for comparison's sake. I honestly love our WR group right now - it's a terrific mix of skill sets, body types, and speed - but it's missing a true No. 1. Moore has a chance to be that guy, and if he does this group is going to make real noise. The depth is outstanding - Berrios at 4 is absurd and either Smith or Mims would be a fine number 5 WR with functional upside. It can survive an injury to one of the top 3, and even be functional if two get hurt at the same time (a group of "Davis/Berrios/Smith" would be bad but not embarrassing and still has two at least passable starting WRs).

2015 Brandon Marshall, Eric Decker, Jeremy Kerley, Quincy Enunwa, Devin Smith, Kenbrell Thompkins, Chris Owusu

    This is a really strong group. Marshall was dominant in 2015, Decker was a very good No. 2, Kerley a very good No. 3. The depth suffered once you got past them (Enunwa hadn't shown anything yet, Smith never would, Thompkins was mediocre), but that top 3 was terrific and Enunwa had real talent (couldn't stay healthy though)

2013 Santonio Holmes, Stephen Hill, Kerley, Greg Salas

    I cut this off at 5 because 12 WRs saw time on the Jets active roster that season (who can forget the immortal Ryan Spadola?) which tells you what a sh*t-show this unit was. Holmes managed all of 23 catches that year; Kerley led the team with 43. Enough said.

2011 Holmes, Plaxico Burress, Derrick Mason, Kerley, Erron Riley, Patrick Turner

     Holmes and Burress (and Mason) were obviously big names, but didn't produce very much in a run-first offense helmed by Sanchez (Burress and Holmes combined for a good WR season at 96 Rec for ~1200 yards). The depth didn't exist.

Overall: Pick your preference - do you want the top end greatness provided by Marshall in 2015 or the overall group in 2022? For roster building purposes, I'd take the 2022 group (can't guarantee no injuries, so I'll give up a little top end upside for security against downside injury risk) but it's not crazy to prefer the 2015 group given how ridiculous Marshall was that year.

TE

2022 CJ Uzomah, Tyler Conklin, Jeremy Ruckert, Yeboah/Cager

    Do we even have to talk about this? This is the best and deepest TE group the team has had in years. Maybe ever, from a depth perspective. Each of the top 3 either has been or reasonably projects to be a very good starter in the NFL.

2015 Jeff Cumberland, Kellen Davis, Wes Saxton. 2013 Kellen Winslow, Jeff Cumberland, Zach Sudfeld, Konrad Reuland. 2011 Dustin Keller, Josh Baker, Jeff Cumberland, Matthew Mulligan

Overall: Yeah, I'm not even bothering with analysis of those groups, which each had a maximum of 1 NFL caliber player in them. 2022 and it's not debatable.

OL

2022 Fant, Tomlinson, McGovern, AVT, Becton, Mitchell, Edoga, McDermott, Feeney, Herbig

    Leaving out the deeper backups, this is a good OL group with real concerns at depth OT and the durability of the starting OTs, which isn't a good combination. If everyone's healthy this should be a top 15-top 10 type OL; the interior is elite, Fant was one of the better pass blockers in the league last year, and Becton has all-world upside. Feeney and Herbig are terrific depth inside, but it's hold-your-breath time if Mitchell or Edoga need to see any time at OT. McDermott is faceplanting in camp and will likely be cut; I would not be surprised to see an addition to this group once other teams start cutting players.

2015 Brick, James Carpenter, Mangold, Willie Colon, Brenno Giacomini, Brian Winters, Brett Qvale, Dakota Dozier, Wesley Johnson, Tanner Purdum 

   4-across, this line is amazing. Brick and Mangold are HoF caliber players, Carpenter and Colon were very very good starting guards in the NFL. But after that, dear god. Brenno goddamn Giacomini started games for this team. Brian Winters was the best available depth. You can't block a pass rush with 4 players. Hot garbage.

2013 Brick, Winters, Mangold, Colon, Austin Howard, Vlad Ducasse, Purdum, Caleb Schlauderoff

   Again, we have a 4-man line, with Winters as a rookie playing a barely competent LG, and no depth. Hot garbage

2011 Brick, Matt Slauson, Mangold, Brandon Moore, Wayne Hunter, Ducasse, Purdum, Robert Turner, Schlauderoff, Colin Baxter

     OK, at least this time we're 5-across; IIRC, this was the year Hunter actually played a competent tackle. Slauson was a competent OG and Moore is vastly underrated - a terrific player.  But ZERO depth

Overall: Again, I don't think this is a close question. Brick and Mangold are all-timers, but the best "fifth man" on any of those lines was Wayne Hunter, and the backups are not NFL-caliber players. Even with the questions at OT on the 2022 team (health for Fant and Becton), if you force me to roll with one of those groups it's going to be this year's

DL

2022: Carl Lawson, Quinnen Williams, Sheldon Rankins, John Franklin Myers, Jermaine Johnson II, Bryce Huff, Jacob Martin, Vinny Curry, Jonathon Marshall, Nathan Sheppard, Solomon Thomas, Michael Clemmons

     That's 12 guys, some of whom are going to have to be cut (likely Curry and Sheppard if I had to handicap it today), and I left out other depth guys currently on the roster. I've got some concern about run-stuffing DT and high-end pass rush (need Lawson to be that guy) but this is a deep, skilled, and versatile group.

2015: Calvin Pace, Quinton Coples, Mike Catapano, Stephen Bowen, Leonard Williams, Sheldon Richardson, Muhammad Wilkerson, Damon Harrison, Leger Douzable, TJ Barnes

     Pro football reference has guys like Pace and Coples listed at DE, though they were technically 3-4 LBs. Since the D has changed, it's easiest to compare the groups this way, so I'll run with it. The 2015 DL had an embarrassment of high-end riches: top draft picks (Wilkerson, Williams, and Richardson) and a UDFA who developed into the best run-stuffer in the NFL (Harrison). Douzable was a very good backup, Catapano was an energy guy, Bowen was competent. Pace was a good edge setter. This was a good group, Mac's horrific misallocation of resources and Wilkerson's complete disappearing act aside, but it had no real pass rush threat, even from the 3-4 OLBs.

2013 Pace, Coples, Wilkerson, Richardson, Harrison, Douzable, Kenrick Ellis, Scott Solomon

    Basically the same group, just with Ellis instead of Williams and Solomon as the deeper depth guy. Still no pass rush, still an elite 3-4 DL with Wilk, Richardson, and Harrison, still a misallocation of resources.

2011 Bryan Thomas, Pace, Wilkerson, Ellis, Sione Pouha, Ropati Pitoitua, Jamaal Westerman, Mike DeVito, Martin Tevaseu, Aaron Maybin, Marcus Dixon, Eddie Jones

     Thomas got a lot of grief for not being a top pass rusher and for not being Ed Reed, but he was a good player. Pouha was an elite nose by then, and Wilkerson was about to have a terrific rookie year. DeVito was a very good lunch-pail guy.

Overall: Again, to me, it's 2022 and not close. For all the assets poured into that 2015 DL, it still generated no pass rush and we had no room to play our 4 best guys at the same time. The depth in 2022 is much, much better than any of those other years, and the top-end pass rush is at least as good.

LB

2022 CJ Mosely, Quincy Williams, Kwon Alexander, Jamien Sherwood, Hamsa Nasirildeen, Marcel Harris, Del'Shawn Phillips, DQ Thomas

    The LB group is one of the real concerns on this team, though adding Alexander was big. Mosely is overpaid but still a very good player. Williams played well last year, let's see how he does. The depth is an abomination; if any of those top 3 get hurt we'll be hoping for huge growth out of Sherwood/Nasirildeen to just reach "mediocre LB"

2015 David Harris, Demarrio Davis, Erin Henderson, Lorenzo Mauldin, Jamarri Lattimore, TJ Reilly

    Again, Pace really belongs in this group, and it's hard to compare a 4-3 LB group to a 3-4 group. Harris is an all-time Jet (on the downside of his career by then, but still), Henderson was a competent vet. Davis was not yet good, and nobody else in this group ever would be.

2013 Harris, Davis, Ricky Sapp, Antwan Barnes, Nick Bellore, Jermaine Cunningham, Troy Davis, Garrett McIntyre

     This group is a dumpster fire; aside from Harris, the best players are a not-yet-good Demarrio Davis and Nick Bellore, who was such a good LB that he transitioned to FB a few years later. Again, Pace and Coples were the OLBs so it wasn't a total disaster, but ... not great, Bob!

2011 Harris, Bart Scott, McIntyre, Bellore, Josh Mauga

    Now that's a good group. Harris and Scott were elite ILBs paired with Thomas and Pace on the outside. This was a punishing LB group. No depth, though.

Overall: It's a closer question than I expected it to be given how light that 2011 group is behind the 4 starters, and it's not like you could transition them into this system. But as a group, I'll take 2011 over 2022.

CB

2022 Gardner, Reed, Hall, Carter, Echols, Guidry, Dunn

   This is a good, good group - what a change from last year. Carter's a terrific slot CB, Guidry is good depth behind him. Reed was a good FA signing and a solid No. 2 CB, while Gardner looks like he's going to be a real one. Hall and Echols were starting last year and are elite depth pieces. It's missing a lockdown number 1 right now, but maybe it isn't. We'll see.

2015 Darelle Revis, Antonio Cromartie, Buster Skrine, Marcus Williams, Dee Milliner, Dex McDougle, Darrin Walls

    The shells of Revis and Cromartie, Skrine the penalty machine, Milliner and McDougle in the trainer's room. Revis was OK that year but nowhere near the elite CB he was in prior years. Decent starters, terrible depth.

2013 Cro, Milliner, Walls, Kyle Wilson, Isaiah Trufant, Ellis Lankster

     Avert your eyes, this is ugly as sin. Cro was still a top-tier CB at that point, but he was the only NFL player at the position

2011 Revis, Cro, Brodney Pool, Wilson, Trufant, Lankster, Marquice Cole

    That's what I'm talking about. The depth is terrible but that doesn't matter as much when you have prime Revis and Cro locking down WRs 1-on-1; it gave Rex the ability to roll coverages to help on other players.

Overall: Give me 2011 because of just how crazy elite Revis and Cro were, but 3-6 2022 crushes the 2011 group and it's not a discussion.

S

2022 LaMarcus Joyner, Jordan Whitehead, Ashtyn Davis, Jason Pinnock, Elijah Riley, Will Parks

    Another area of concern - Whitehead is a good player and Joyner was elite a few years ago but our starters are low-end, overall, and our depth is a mix of unproven and unexpected. If Pinnock can keep growing that'll help, but Davis has been a disappointment and Riley and Parks are in the "nice story, who?" category.

2015 Calvin Pryor, Rontez Miles, Dion Bailey, Ronald Martin, Marcus Gilchrist, Jaiqwan Jarrett

    Ouch. This is a terrible group.

2013 Ed Reed, Dawan Landry, Antonio Allen, Jarrett, Josh Bush

    Not terrible. Reed was a shell of his former self but Allen and Landry were passable players, as were Bush and Jarrett.

2011  Jim Leonhard, Eric Smith, Emmanuel Cook, Tracy Wilson

     Leonhard and Smith were try-hard players underappreciated while they were here, but nothing particularly terrifying for opposing QBs. Depth was non-existent.

Overall: Can't believe I'm saying this but the 2022 group is the best of all of these. Wow ... was not expecting that when I started looking. 2013 has a similar lack of high-end players and worse depth, and same for 2011.

ST

2022 Hennessey, Mann, Zeurlein/Piniero, Berrios, Hardee

     Hennesey is an excellent long snapper and Mann is a competent punter. The K situation is obviously a huge concern. Berrios is a terrific return guy and Hardee an elite gunner, but also I doubt he makes the team.

2015 Purdum, Weatherford/Quigley, Folk/Bullock

     Fine at LS, kicker was good. Punter was fine. 

2013 Purdum, Folk, Quigley

    Quigley was terrible. Folk was very good.

2011 Purdum, Folk, TJ Conley

    Conley was terrible, Folk was excellent

Overall: I'll take 2011 if forced to choose - better a mediocre to bad punter than a mediocre to bad kicker - but if we can get competent kicking this year from one of Zeurlein or Pineiro it'll be 2022.

QB

2022 Zach, Flacco, White

     This has been talked to death; this season turns on what Wilson ends up as. Backups are as good as could be asked for.

2015 Fitz, Geno

     Carried only 2 QBs and Fitz had a magical season. 

2013 Geno, Matt Simms

     I don't want to talk about it.

2011 Sanchez, Brunnell

     Sanchez was where Zach is this year - the high draft pick whose development would be the key to the year. He ended up playing decent enough as a caretaker QB to get regular season wins, but not good enough to finish the job. Brunell was a 41 year old statue

Overall: The only question is whether you take Sanchez's known floor over Zach's potential (and potential collapse), but overall the 2022 QB room is the best of these.

 

What's my takeaway on all of this? Joe Douglas has done an outstanding job, and for the first time in forever we're fielding a full NFL team. The depth on this roster is crazy, and there are few true holes (run stuffing DT? LB depth? True No. 1 WR/CB?). Outcomes this year turn on Wilson, but position group for position group I'll take this 2022 roster ahead of the 2011 team that went 11-5, and there's no reason Wilson can't be at least as good this year as Sanchez was in 2011. This is a goooood roster.

 

This is a Very good analysis and why I am so high on this year (13-4) 10 Wins minimum. They added top tier talent at every position group and not the over-the-hill paying top dollar for kind.

Hall is the type of RB this franchise has not seen Adrian Murrell. Homerun hitter from anywhere on the field. CM was an all -timer but more in the mold of Michael Carter then Hall, elusive but can get caught from behind.

Wilson is type of WR this team has not seen since Toon/Moore. This combo reminds me of those years but I think E Moore is going to be top 20 in the league this year.

Zach is a gun slinger... lets just hope he doesn't turn into O'brien

Sauce reminds me of Cromartie but actually looks like he might learn rather then spend all his time relying on his absurb talent and having children.

And For the first time since abraham and Ellis combo... The Jets look like they have edge rushers...

Not going into the veterans but they are all number 1 players at their position and not depth.  Which is not typically what the Jets get in FA.

 

[jago]

if ZW cleans up his short and intermediate game the team should contend, else still mediocre.
maybe in the hunt last 2 weeks, that would be progress. so much youth so many question marks.
all these 1-2 year kids have to prove up to nfl game day standards. hasnt helped to have a CS in training too.
the upside of watching them develop could be great fun but lets not put gold jackets on anyone yet eh.
 

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, Jet2020 said:

Jets went 11-5 in 2010. Wrong year. That was one of the best Jets roster in a while. 

Offense: Sanchez, LT, Braylon, Holmes, Keller, Brick, Mangold, woody, Moore, Slauson

That’s an average group but it’s probably our best since then. 

ooof. Did I click the wrong link? damn. Well, I'm not redoing all that

[#27TheDominator]

15 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Greene sucked.  I loved Ivory and the way he ran with reckless abandonment but he wasn't a pass catcher.  LT still had some juice left in the tank but he was a shadow of what he was in the mid-2000s.

You don't really need to see a RB play at the pro level yet to determine if he'll be a success out of the gates.  It's pretty much a no-brainer that Hall will.  Especially in a system like ours where its as "plug n play" as it gets for RBs.  I don't think this team has had a RB with his skill level since perhaps Freeman McNeil. 

So, yeah, without seeing him play a down, I'm willing to say he and Michael Carter are the best duo we've seen in a long time, and perhaps ever.

No offense, but this is laughable.  If Greene sucked, then there is literally no reason to suck off Michael Carter.  Carter is a smaller back who had a nice rookie season.  Greene's rookie season was just as good and he backed it up with two thousand yard seasons.  Going into 2011 Shonn Greene had over 500 yards rushing at 5ypc in the playoffs.  The idea that you know what a rookie will be ahead of time is also a joke.  Yes, Hall might be great.  They both might be, but don't count your chickens.  In 2011 Joe McKnight was a seldom used rookie that had sat behind Greene and Tomlinson and went for 150 in the finale when those guys rested and the other team knew they were running on every down.  If you are touting potential, it was there. 

Also, the shadow of LaDamleyan (Charlie Casserly pronunciation) Tomlinson is better than 95% of the league.  

[#27TheDominator]

22 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

This is a Very good analysis and why I am so high on this year (13-4) 10 Wins minimum. They added top tier talent at every position group and not the over-the-hill paying top dollar for kind.

Hall is the type of RB this franchise has not seen Adrian Murrell. Homerun hitter from anywhere on the field. CM was an all -timer but more in the mold of Michael Carter then Hall, elusive but can get caught from behind.

Wilson is type of WR this team has not seen since Toon/Moore. This combo reminds me of those years but I think E Moore is going to be top 20 in the league this year.

Zach is a gun slinger... lets just hope he doesn't turn into O'brien

Sauce reminds me of Cromartie but actually looks like he might learn rather then spend all his time relying on his absurb talent and having children.

And For the first time since abraham and Ellis combo... The Jets look like they have edge rushers...

Not going into the veterans but they are all number 1 players at their position and not depth.  Which is not typically what the Jets get in FA.

 

If you think this team is going to make a 9 game improvement, I am not surprised my post confused you.  The roster is much improved and there is potential everywhere, but man will a ton of sh*t have to break right for this team to get anywhere near that.  That would be the best record in Jets history.  It would have been the best record in the Conference and tied for best in the league.  I repeat my rosy glasses comment.

[JustInFudge]

Fun read, the only criticism I have is you're putting a lot of favor into groups with players that you've never actually seen play Football in the NFL. 

 

[Skeptable]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If you think this team is going to make a 9 game improvement, I am not surprised my post confused you.  The roster is much improved and there is potential everywhere, but man will a ton of sh*t have to break right for this team to get anywhere near that.  That would be the best record in Jets history.  It would have been the best record in the Conference and tied for best in the league.  I repeat my rosy glasses comment.

Its not about a 9 game improvement, its about having possibly the one, if not the most talented roster based on age and ceiling possibility. As a collective whole, the 2010 and 2008 are two of the most talented years the Jets have ever had and this roster has the ability to compare with those years.

Will it... too many unknowns as most of the nay-sayers allude to. Its not about other teams and what talent they have... Its about this team and how well they can play together. I know... Crazy... its never happened to the Jets before... never have they just gone from one of the worst to one of the best. But I will tell you that nearly every year 1 team does it.  Bengals were last year, Indy, Saints, Chargers, 49ers... sure all different circumstances but most here aren't even giving ZW a chance, as I highlighted in another post. If he makes the jump I think he will make.... 10 wins is the floor... no matter what their record was last year.

[Skeptable]

25 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

No offense, but this is laughable.  If Greene sucked, then there is literally no reason to suck off Michael Carter.  Carter is a smaller back who had a nice rookie season.  Greene's rookie season was just as good and he backed it up with two thousand yard seasons.  Going into 2011 Shonn Greene had over 500 yards rushing at 5ypc in the playoffs.  The idea that you know what a rookie will be ahead of time is also a joke.  Yes, Hall might be great.  They both might be, but don't count your chickens.  In 2011 Joe McKnight was a seldom used rookie that had sat behind Greene and Tomlinson and went for 150 in the finale when those guys rested and the other team knew they were running on every down.  If you are touting potential, it was there. 

Also, the shadow of LaDamleyan (Charlie Casserly pronunciation) Tomlinson is better than 95% of the league.  

Shonn Greene never ever had the potential of MC or Hall... He was solid and 1 cut back that had some backend speed. Hall was scoring 50+ Yard TDs throughout college... Can he bust ... of course... anyone can... but Greene only excelled in the playoffs when he was fresh legs compared to the whole rest of the league.

[#27TheDominator]

24 minutes ago, Skeptable said:

Its not about a 9 game improvement, its about having possibly the one, if not the most talented roster based on age and ceiling possibility. As a collective whole, the 2010 and 2008 are two of the most talented years the Jets have ever had and this roster has the ability to compare with those years.

Will it... too many unknowns as most of the nay-sayers allude to. Its not about other teams and what talent they have... Its about this team and how well they can play together. I know... Crazy... its never happened to the Jets before... never have they just gone from one of the worst to one of the best. But I will tell you that nearly every year 1 team does it.  Bengals were last year, Indy, Saints, Chargers, 49ers... sure all different circumstances but most here aren't even giving ZW a chance, as I highlighted in another post. If he makes the jump I think he will make.... 10 wins is the floor... no matter what their record was last year.

Just when I start to think that I get where you are coming from, things get too rosy for me to see straight.  I agree, they have a ton of potential across the board.  I can apprecaite 13 wins being your pie in the sky dream rather than a prediction.  The thing  is, so did those other Jets teams.  The 2010-2011 Jets had a great D.  They added Kyle Wilson, but that potential did not materialize.  Adding Wilson, Ducasse, Amaro Devin Smith looked like nice moves, but they sure didn't pan out.  I pray that Johnson, Hall and both Wilsons don't turn out like them..

The Bengals who are your example of "it can happen to us!  Why not us?  Why not now?"  only actually made it to your 10 win floor.  That was with a QB that didn't make a jump like Jordan to reach mediocrity.  My honest believable hope is that we make the jump to respectable this year and learn what we have to fix for next year and whether we are sticking with Wilson or looking for legitimate competition for him.  I believe in taking one game at a time, but I think the hope is we do okay this year and are set up to be top of the heap contenders in 2023.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

No offense, but this is laughable.  If Greene sucked, then there is literally no reason to suck off Michael Carter.  Carter is a smaller back who had a nice rookie season.  Greene's rookie season was just as good and he backed it up with two thousand yard seasons.  Going into 2011 Shonn Greene had over 500 yards rushing at 5ypc in the playoffs.  The idea that you know what a rookie will be ahead of time is also a joke.  Yes, Hall might be great.  They both might be, but don't count your chickens.  In 2011 Joe McKnight was a seldom used rookie that had sat behind Greene and Tomlinson and went for 150 in the finale when those guys rested and the other team knew they were running on every down.  If you are touting potential, it was there. 

Also, the shadow of LaDamleyan (Charlie Casserly pronunciation) Tomlinson is better than 95% of the league.  

 

You're exhausting.

If you're going to suggest my take is "laughable", maybe don't try to compare the draft/talent pedigree of Joe McKnight (RIP) to Breece Hall in the same post. 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

You're exhausting.

I'll just say that if my take was "laughable", maybe don't try to compare the draft/talent pedigree of Joe McKnight to Breece Hall in the same post.

Yes.  Athletic 2nd round draft picks are always successful in the NFL.  Breece Hall will be our #1 back.  Joe McKnight was #3 in a 2 back rotation.

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

Yes.  Athletic 2nd round draft picks are always successful in the NFL.  Breece Hall will be our #1 back.  Joe McKnight was #3 in a 2 back rotation.

Joe McKnight was a complimentary back for a loaded USC program, where he had 13 career rushing TDs and 2 receiving TDs, hence why he was a # 112 overall pick.  Breece Hall was a true bell cow at Iowa St where he collected 56 total TDs.  He had nearly twice as many yards from scrimmage (4,675) as McKnight (2,755) in their respective collegiate careers.  They aren't comparable.   

Even noted ISU hater @HawkeyeJet would have to reluctantly admit that Breece Hall is an elite RB prospect.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Joe McKnight was a complimentary back for a loaded USC program, where he had 13 career rushing TDs and 2 receiving TDs, hence why he was the # 119 overall pick.  Breece Hall was a true bell cow at Iowa St where he collected 56 total TDs.  He had nearly twice as many yards from scrimmage (4,675) as McKnight (2,755) in their respective collegiate careers. 

Even noted ISU hater @HawkeyeJet would have to reluctantly admit that Breece Hall is an elite RB prospect.

I'm exhausting?  Hello, Pot. 

First of all, I am not the one comparing McKnight and Hall.  That is all you.  I am saying that we are comparing potential with what actually happens.  McKnight had tons of potential.  He was a 5-star recruit that was the biggest get at USC in a decade.  He got caught up when Pete left for Seattle and dropped in the draft.  In the last game of his rookie season he went for 158 in his only start.  Did McKnight perform as a pro?  Not in the backfrield, but if we were doing this analysis in 2010 or 2011, you can bet his potential would be a big part of the discussion.  Besides, if doggin was actually talking about 2010, our best roster, he was our #4 back with Woodhead still on the team.  Hall is a better prospect.  He is also our #1.  You want to compare him to Ty Johnson, Tevin Coleman, or LaMichael Perine?  Fair enough.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I'm exhausting?  Hello, Pot. 

First of all, I am not the one comparing McKnight and Hall.  That is all you.  I am saying that we are comparing potential with what actually happens.  McKnight had tons of potential.  He was a 5-star recruit that was the biggest get at USC in a decade.  He got caught up when Pete left for Seattle and dropped in the draft.  In the last game of his rookie season he went for 158 in his only start.  Did McKnight perform as a pro?  Not in the backfrield, but if we were doing this analysis in 2010 or 2011, you can bet his potential would be a big part of the discussion.  Besides, if doggin was actually talking about 2010, our best roster, he was our #4 back with Woodhead still on the team.  Hall is a better prospect.  He is also our #1.  You want to compare him to Ty Johnson, Tevin Coleman, or LaMichael Perine?  Fair enough.

 

Oh right, I was the one who first mentioned McKnight.

You talk about potential and then only mention McKnight's High School star rating without addressing what I noted about collegiate production?  GTF outta here.  Not even close to the same level as NFL prospects, and that undermines everything else you're trying to argue about concerning the RB position.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

You talk about potential and then only mention McKnight's High School star rating without addressing what I noted about collegiate production?  GTF outta here.

HE HAD 158 YARDS IN HIS ONLY NFL START AND YOU ARE COMPARING HIM TO GUYS THAT HAD A WEEK OF TRAINING CAMP.

Am I being clear enough?

Holy sh*t dude. 

Actually, that isn't even true.  We are comparing guys that haven't even had 2 weeks of NFL experience to guys that had thousands of yards in the NFL, and then completely discounting McKnight's potential.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

HE HAD 158 YARDS IN HIS ONLY NFL START AND YOU ARE COMPARING HIM TO GUYS THAT HAD A WEEK OF TRAINING CAMP.

Am I being clear enough?

Holy sh*t dude. 

Yes I am because McKnight has played an NFL game and Breece Hall has not, hence why the NFL prospect profile is all that is relevant when it comes to their "potential".  And even after that one nice game no one was raving about McKnight becoming an RB1.  You're out of your mind if you think that matters.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes I am because McKnight has played an NFL game and Breece Hall has not, hence why the NFL prospect profile is all that is relevant when it comes to their "potential".

Read my edit above.  If you are ******* with me, fine.  If not, you're being pretty dense on the topic.  I have never said that Joe McKnight was a better prospect than Breece Hall.  What I said was, when we analyze old position groups, you have to consider the potential that those groups had.  Potential that often is not realized.  Compare the 2021 and 2022 WR groupings.  In May of 2021 people were counting on Mims to take a big step up and were excited about Moore's potential.  This year we are counting on Moore and anything we get from Mims is a bonus. 

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

HE HAD 158 YARDS IN HIS ONLY NFL START AND YOU ARE COMPARING HIM TO GUYS THAT HAD A WEEK OF TRAINING CAMP.

Am I being clear enough?

Holy sh*t dude. 

Actually, that isn't even true.  We are comparing guys that haven't even had 2 weeks of NFL experience to guys that had thousands of yards in the NFL, and then completely discounting McKnight's potential.  

If memory serves - that was against Buffalo in a meaningless game in the last game of the season, correct? Might not be the best example?  Similar to the Geno perfect game against Miami?  

I think the point is that Hall is a much better overall RB prospect coming out than McKnight was. Hall probably could have been a top 5 overall pick 20 years ago.

 

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Read my edit above.  If you are ******* with me, fine.  If not, you're being pretty dense on the topic.  I have never said that Joe McKnight was a better prospect than Breece Hall.  What I said was, when we analyze old position groups, you have to consider the potential that those groups had.  Potential that often is not realized.  Compare the 2021 and 2022 WR groupings.  In May of 2021 people were counting on Mims to take a big step up and were excited about Moore's potential.  This year we are counting on Moore and anything we get from Mims is a bonus. 

Like I said, you shouldn't have even said McKnight's name.  It undermined everything else you had to say about the RB position.  Just silly stuff right now. 

[Darnold's Forehead]

I wish college football didn't exist.  The incessant reliance on college performance is exhausting.  This thread seems nice on paper, but there is zero point in arguing until we've seen this group play for at least a year.

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

If memory serves - that was against Buffalo in a meaningless game in the last game of the season, correct? Might not be the best example?  Similar to the Geno perfect game against Miami?  

I think the point is that Hall is a much better overall RB prospect coming out than McKnight was. Hall probably could have been a top 5 overall pick 20 years ago.

 

That is not my point.  That is 80's point.  I have repeatedly stated that Hall is a much better prospect.  I am saying no matter how good the prospect is, he is still a prospect, not a proven commodity.  80 is jumping up and down calling Shonn Greene, trash.  Shonn Greene who had 2 thousand yard seasons and averaged over 4 ypc.  I am just saying potential is potential.  Adding Kyle Wilson to the CB room added a ton of potential, but it didn't make it any better when they stepped on the field, and I remember Wilson's draft profiles.  There no reason to expect as little as we got other than college to NFL is not that easy. 

Yes McKnight was not a good NFL RB.  Yes his big game was against the worst run D in the league in a meaningless game.  My point is, that people would have been touting his potential as a big plus going into the next season.  

[Doggin94it]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

Fun read, the only criticism I have is you're putting a lot of favor into groups with players that you've never actually seen play Football in the NFL. 

 

Yep. And a couple of practice reports which, as we all know, are gospel and highly predictive.

If Sauce busts, the CB group takes a big hit, no doubt. Rightly or wrongly I am fairly confident that he isn't going to. He profiled as one of the safest prospects in many drafts and his performance since then has seemed to reflect it.

Same for Hall. RB is one of the few positions that rookies can routinely come in and, no pun intended, hit the ground running. He's the type of prospect who would have been an early first round pick in a different era, and again, his performance in the first portion of the off season seems to validate that. Again, he could bust, but I am fairly confident that he won't.

I am much less confident in Garrett Wilson. Receivers often have a tougher transition to the NFL, and he wasn't a blow you away type of college Prospect. But early reports have been encouraging, he's flashed in practices, and only needs to work into the mix as a number three or four wide receiver. So, lower confidence range, but still pretty confident.

I have much much less confidence in Johnson, Clemons, and ruckert, particularly when it comes to the extent of their impact as rookies. But their position groups are deep enough that any real contributions from them will be bonuses for purposes of this analysis.

[#27TheDominator]

20 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Like I said, you shouldn't have even said McKnight's name.  It undermined everything else you had to say about the RB position.  Just silly stuff right now. 

Okay.  I am out.  If I can't define potential vs. production in twelve posts that's on me.  I guess I can go back and look for the posts of you counting McKnight as part of our young core players or saying you were happier to give him and Greene and shot than hang on to Thomas Jones and Leon Washington.  

[Doggin94it]

Anyway, the main point of the analysis wasn't that this team is a better team than the team that went 11 and 5. It's that this roster is stocked with NFL players top to bottom and legitimate depth at almost every position. For the longest time, you would look at the Jets roster in find Fringe NFL players occupying key spots on the depth chart, as primary backups if not sometimes his starters. That's not this roster anymore. There is nobody slated for a meaningful role as a starter or primary backup with the possible exception of the safety position, LB, and OT, where you wonder how that guy is even on an NFL team.