Zach and Sauce shined in Green & White scrimmage

[Hal N of Provo]

49 minutes ago, jgb said:

If the Jets passers have zero drops this year and the QB is exactly the same player as he was last year otherwise, will it be a good season?

Actually yeah.
 

 How many drives were killed by drops?  If those don’t stall the jets win more games.  Score more points.  

Week 1 the Moore dropped bomb changes that game.   On and on.
 

  It would be a good rookie season with more yards - not only on the dropped passes but the extended drives.   
 

 

[jgb]

10 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Actually yeah.
 

 How many drives were killed by drops?  If those don’t stall the jets win more games.  Score more points.  

Week 1 the Moore dropped bomb changes that game.   On and on.
 

  It would be a good rookie season with more yards - not only on the dropped passes but the extended drives.   
 

 

If you think the drops last year is the difference between a terrible and a good QB performance, there’s just nothing left to discuss with you.

You can have the last word, the next word, and every word forevermore.

[Hal N of Provo]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

If you think the drops last year is the difference between a terrible and a good QB performance, there’s just nothing left to discuss with you.

You can have the last work, the next word, and every word forevermore.

Ok.   I win.  And I took a screen shot of your surrender.  

[JetNation]

The Jets held their Green and White Scrimmage at MetLife Stadium on Saturday.  Here are some updates from Coach Saleh and some first-hand fan updates below that.

Robert Saleh

I thought it was really good, good competitive scrimmage on both sides of the ball. I thought offense was really good coming out early, good, methodical drives. I thought the defense responded in the second half with some stops. It was really good. It was. It was going back in forth. I can get into more detail into what I saw, but save those for game days, I guess.

On Zach Wilson

I thought it was really good, good competitive scrimmage on both sides of the ball. I thought offense was really good coming out early, good, methodical drives. I thought the defense responded in the second half with some stops. It was really good. It was. It was going back in forth. I can get into more detail into what I saw, but save those for game days, I guess.

Green Reaper in the JetNation forums:

Zach went 12-19 for over 100 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT.   Ran also for around 25+ yards.  Couple of drops by receivers too.

Sauce covered Moore on one play down the field like he was glued to him in this report.  Zach Wilson to Gerald Wilson deep…a spectacular catch.  But only got one foot in bounds.

Saleh said the receiver drops due to depth of stadium that players need to adjust too.  Sounds ridiculous to me.  Quincey Williams and Jermaine Johnson had sacks.  Others too.  So pressure forced Zach to make throws on the run.

This being reported by Frankie from Flatbush getting communications from others at the games.

Conner McDermott hurt his ankle.  So…please sign Duane Brown.

Repeated many times…too many drops by receivers.

kdels62 provided this update in this #JetsCamp thread.

Zach Wilson: Last year I came away from the Green and White scrimmage worried about the QB1. This year I feel very differently. The kid showed accuracy and arm strength and quickness that lacked last year. While I’m still waiting for the return of his big play ability he is doing other things well. He had a throw in the first 11v11s where he stepped up in the pocket and side armed the ball around the pass rusher to the flat. It was very cool. Anyway I liked his performance today.

Conklin: He’s good. Dynamic in small areas.

TEs generally: Cager flashed with a few catches, Yeboah did the same, Uzomah is steady. It’s a good room and someone with potential is going to be cut. Ruckert  is lucky he was a 3rd rounder at this point.

OL: Sign Duane Brown. Good day for Max Mitchell

WRs: Corey Davis isn’t in danger of getting cut but his first team reps were limited. Moore was silent. Jeff Smith is either bad or not idk anymore. Mims had some short slot catches. Wilson is fun. Irvin Charles is intriguing.

Sauce Gardner: He’s a baller. If he got beat it was deep and very close to the sideline. Very popular, he feels like a star.

LBs: Minimal contact so little takeaway here. Kwon played with the second team.

Jermaine Johnson: Not a good day for the rookie. Got shut down by Mitchell then run at for a big gain. He failed to disengage in time a few times. I came out more skeptical about him.

Pass rushers: Martin, Huff, Lawson, Zuniga were active

IDL: Solomon Thomas looked good, Rankins took a knock, just please keep Q healthy.

Bryce Hall: Good Day

The post Green & White Update appeared first on JetNation.com (NY Jets Blog & Forum).

Click here to read the full story...

[FidelioJet]

10 hours ago, jgb said:

If the Jets passers have zero drops this year and the QB is exactly the same player as he was last year otherwise, will it be a good season?

First, let me answer your question - No, it would't be a good year...But it surely might cost the Jets a game or two.

No one is saying Zach Wilson was good last year - - but where instead of drops guys made a few tough plays - he would have been better.

 

Now, let's look at this a different way.

If Zach does get better  (not superstar but just competent NFL QB play) and again we lead the league in drops which costs us a game or two - which is the different between making the playoffs or not - is it still not a problem?

The only point I'm making is the Jets lead the league in WR drops last year,  that trend seemed to continue in the scrimmage and that should be reason for concern.

 Is it your contention that leading the league in dropped passes shouldn't be a concern and is no big deal?

 

 

[Claymation]

Drops happen to each and every team. The biggest issue last year was that the WRs couldn't make a play to help the QB out. Rarely did I see a WO make a contested catch or make a catch where the ball wasn't properly placed. Zach didn't help the matter being skittish by the on coming rush.

This year he will have to stay in the pocket and deliver. Teams are going to blitz him until he can prove he can beat it. 

[Hal N of Provo]

20 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

First, let me answer your question - No, it would't be a good year...But it surely might cost the Jets a game or two.

No one is saying Zach Wilson was good last year - - but where instead of drops guys made a few tough plays - he would have been better.

 

Now, let's look at this a different way.

If Zach does get better  (not superstar but just competent NFL QB play) and again we lead the league in drops which costs us a game or two - which is the different between making the playoffs or not - is it still not a problem?

The only point I'm making is the Jets lead the league in WR drops last year,  that trend seemed to continue in the scrimmage and that should be reason for concern.

 Is it your contention that leading the league in dropped passes shouldn't be a concern and is no big deal?

 

 

He would have passed 65% or higher if we use the real drops not official drops and I think they win more games for sure.  The mood would have been much different about him.  

[Jet Nut]

12 hours ago, jgb said:

Sorry my friend not about emotion even granting those drops down to league mean (or do you expect zero drops from Jets players?) my statement is undeniably correct.

Sorry you’re not telling the real story.  It’s been reported they lead the league in drops.  Claiming it was 4 drops over the mean doesn’t say squat about how his ranking would change if the actual number of drops were high.  Just as you don’t know when and where the drops occurred, how they could have changed TD totals etc. and his rankings. 

 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

Drops are part of the game.

They happen and you can’t use it as an excuse to why you win or lose.

However to say Zach looked underwhelming and his numbers were underwhelming in the scrimmage when he had 80+ yards dropped on near perfect passes is unfair.  
That’s not looking at it objectively. 

[jgb]

25 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Sorry you’re not telling the real story.  It’s been reported they lead the league in drops.  Claiming it was 4 drops over the mean doesn’t say squat about how his ranking would change if the actual number of drops were high.  Just as you don’t know when and where the drops occurred, how they could have changed TD totals etc. and his rankings. 

 

It’s not a claim that’s it’s 4 drops over the mean. If you start erasing drops for the Jets, you need to grant this same service for other QBs.

It’s just a throwaway argument that somehow the Jets drops were “more impactful” and thus especially damaging to the QB. Even his most ardent, intellectually-honest supporters can admit he was not good last year. There is a difference between having hope and obfuscating reality. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

It’s not a claim that’s it’s 4 drops over the mean. If you start erasing drops for the Jets, you need to grant this same service for other QBs.

It’s just a throwaway argument that somehow the Jets drops were “more impactful” and thus especially damaging to the QB. Even his most ardent, intellectually-honest supporters can admit he was not good last year. There is a difference between having hope and obfuscating reality. 

Some simple math can help out a lot here....  And to be clear, I am not sold in either direction on Wilson, I have seen some good signs and some bad signs, and I think like most young players he needs to develop, but as a Jets fan I hope he does develop.

Now, for some simple math.

Lets say Zach averaged 30 attempts per game last year.

He had 55% completion percentage, which means he averaged 16.5 receptions per day.

If you dd those measly 4 over the mean drops as completions so that he was at the mean, not below it, but at it, he goes up to 20.5 receptions per game.

That amounts to a 68.5% completion.

This in no way says hes good, or going to be good, but it does show some statistical impact on drops

[jgb]

50 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

First, let me answer your question - No, it would't be a good year...But it surely might cost the Jets a game or two.

Agree.

50 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

No one is saying Zach Wilson was good last year - - but where instead of drops guys made a few tough plays - he would have been better.

Some are saying absent drops he was good. Intellectually-honest fans like you are not saying that. He would’ve been better with league-mean drops but not materially-so (still ranked last).

50 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 

Now, let's look at this a different way.

If Zach does get better  (not superstar but just competent NFL QB play) and again we lead the league in drops which costs us a game or two - which is the different between making the playoffs or not - is it still not a problem?

Less drops is good. No one said they weren’t. My position is that they are being asked to hold way too much water to cover for the QB. I’ve countered (with math) that even reducing drops last season to the league mean he’s still ranked last. Now we have people trying to spin up these “Jets drops were more impactful than other teams.” LOL. Most Jets games were blowouts. I’d think the Chargers, who, again, led the league in drops, had a lot more game-turning drops since.. ya know… they were in close games.

50 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

The only point I'm making is the Jets lead the league in WR drops last year,  that trend seemed to continue in the scrimmage and that should be reason for concern.

Where is that stat? Chargers led the league in drops according to my data source. But yes, drops are subjective, which is one of the primary problems with using them to cover for a QB. Just as one example, they don’t account for straight up breadbasket drops and drops that also are the partial fault of the QB for a suboptimal delivery point or velocity.

50 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 Is it your contention that leading the league in dropped passes shouldn't be a concern and is no big deal?

 

 

This is a straw man. You’re entitled to your opinion but not to mine.

[jgb]

4 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Some simple math can help out a lot here....  And to be clear, I am not sold in either direction on Wilson, I have seen some good signs and some bad signs, and I think like most young players he needs to develop, but as a Jets fan I hope he does develop.

Now, for some simple math.

Lets say Zach averaged 30 attempts per game last year.

He had 55% completion percentage, which means he averaged 16.5 receptions per day.

If you dd those measly 4 over the mean drops as completions so that he was at the mean, not below it, but at it, he goes up to 20.5 receptions per game.

That amounts to a 68.5% completion.

This in no way says hes good, or going to be good, but it does show some statistical impact on drops

Bro. 4 drops over the mean on the season, not each game.

This is a problem that is dramatically overblown.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, jgb said:

Bro. 4 drops over the mean on the season, not the year.

This is a problem that dramatically overblown.

ok, then I misunderstood, and my math clearly does not apply

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Agree.

Some are saying absent drops he was good. Intellectually-honest fans like you are not saying that. He would’ve been better with league-mean drops but not materially-so (still ranked last).

Less drops is good. No one said they weren’t. My position is that they are being asked to hold way too much water to cover for the QB. I’ve countered (with math) that even reducing drops last season to the league mean he’s still ranked last. Now we have people trying to spin up these “Jets drops were more impactful than other teams.” LOL. Most Jets games were blowouts. I’d think the Chargers, who, again, led the league in drops, had a lot more game-turning drops since.. ya know… they were in close games.

Where is that stat? Chargers led the league in drops according to my data source. But yes, drops are subjective, which is one of the primary problems with using them to cover for a QB. Just as one example, they don’t account for straight up breadbasket drops and drops that also are the partial fault of the QB for a suboptimal delivery point or velocity.

This is a straw man. You’re entitled to your opinion but not to mine.

We’re saying he was good in the scrimmage, not last year. 
 

I looked this up previously so I don’t remember the numbers exactly.  The Chargers led the league in drops, but had like 100 more pass attempts.

You have to go by drop percentage which the Jets led by a wide margin. 

[FidelioJet]

16 minutes ago, jgb said:

Where is that stat? Chargers led the league in drops according to my data source. But yes, drops are subjective, which is one of the primary problems with using them to cover for a QB. Just as one example, they don’t account for straight up breadbasket drops and drops that also are the partial fault of the QB for a suboptimal delivery point or velocity.

16 minutes ago, jgb said:

This is a straw man. You’re entitled to your opinion but not to mine.

I didn't take your opinion but simple asked a question (note the ? at the end of my sentence)  It seemed like that's what were you alluding to - so I asked because it seemed illogical to me.  Apparently you don't believe that.

 

 

This has been posted here a few times, but since you asked..

I do think many here are still too backward looking looking.  That's not what I'm trying to do.  Right now my concern is about this upcoming season - the reason last year's drops came up (for me) was because those concerns resurfaced during the scrimmage.  Just like if Zach starting dirting balls in the scrimmage there would be a major concern because it was a trend from last year - but certainly wouldn't change anything from last year.

 

[Hal N of Provo]

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I didn't take your opinion but simple asked a question (note the ? at the end of my sentence)  It seemed like that's what were you alluding to - so I asked because it seemed illogical to me.  Apparently you don't believe that.

 

 

This has been posted here a few times, but since you asked..

I do think many here are still too backward looking looking.  That's not what I'm trying to do.  Right now my concern is about this upcoming season - the reason last year's drops came up (for me) was because those concerns resurfaced during the scrimmage.  Just like if Zach starting dirting balls in the scrimmage there would be a major concern because it was a trend from last year - but certainly wouldn't change anything from last year.

 

Exactly.  Time to move forward, but if a softball of “would a 9.7% higher completion percentage made the season good” I’ll take the bait and say, yes it would lol. Percentage and yards alone it would but I also think you’d have more TDs   

 

[Supersonic]

He didn't 'shine'.  He looks better, but needs more game experience to grow.  Forget the numbers, just watch him in action.  To a lesser extent, he's still staring down his receivers, forcing throws, and making poor decisions.  He just needs game experience and time to sort it all out.  I'm one of his biggest fans.  I hope he pulls it together sooner rather than later.  I'm also a realist.  He has 13 games of NFL experience under his belt.  I expect him to be decent this season, not Tom Brady.  There's absolutely no reason to sh!t on the guy this early in his career.  ESPECIALLY if you're a Jets fan.

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, Supersonic said:

He didn't 'shine'.  He looks better, but needs more game experience to grow.  Forget the numbers, just watch him in action.  To a lesser extent, he's still staring down his receivers, forcing throws, and making poor decisions.  He just needs game experience and time to sort it all out.  I'm one of his biggest fans.  I hope he pulls it together sooner rather than later.  I'm also a realist.  He has 13 games of NFL experience under his belt.  I expect him to be decent this season, not Tom Brady.  There's absolutely no reason to sh!t on the guy this early in his career.  ESPECIALLY if you're a Jets fan.

Show where any of this is happening as a norm?  Surely he hasn't been perfect, but no QB is...

Show me where you've seen him stare down receivers?

Show me where you've seen him force throws?

Show me where you've seen him make poor decisions on a regular basis?

Look, I'm not saying he's been great in camp and I agree he needs reps to continue to grow - I do think it's obvious he's progressing - and that should make Jet fans happy...

but for whatever reason (specifically the staring down reciever thing) has beomce something people continue to repeat and I've seen no evidence to support that - in fact watching the video from the scrimmage - it's clear he's not doing that at all...

[Jet Nut]

52 minutes ago, jgb said:

It’s not a claim that’s it’s 4 drops over the mean. If you start erasing drops for the Jets, you need to grant this same service for other QBs.

It’s just a throwaway argument that somehow the Jets drops were “more impactful” and thus especially damaging to the QB. Even his most ardent, intellectually-honest supporters can admit he was not good last year. There is a difference between having hope and obfuscating reality. 

I don’t care who else has a similar number of drops, I’d bet Zach came on fewer passes.  And we don’t know if the dro;s we’re more impactful or not.

He want good last year.  But no one would have had success with the receivers he had.

[Hal N of Provo]

6 minutes ago, Supersonic said:

He didn't 'shine'.  He looks better, but needs more game experience to grow.  Forget the numbers, just watch him in action.  To a lesser extent, he's still staring down his receivers, forcing throws, and making poor decisions.  He just needs game experience and time to sort it all out.  I'm one of his biggest fans.  I hope he pulls it together sooner rather than later.  I'm also a realist.  He has 13 games of NFL experience under his belt.  I expect him to be decent this season, not Tom Brady.  There's absolutely no reason to sh!t on the guy this early in his career.  ESPECIALLY if you're a Jets fan.

Yeah improvement this season.   I don’t expect a finished product yet.  If people can’t see the traits that make him worth investing the time in, that’s on them.  
 

There is a reason JD and the coaches had this season planned as another rebuilding season from day 1 - the young players need more time, but we should see progress this season.  

[raffyD]

On 8/7/2022 at 8:58 AM, GreenReaper said:

Here's a new RB in the huddle to complement Breece-MC...

God bless the child.

This is awesome.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

We’re saying he was good in the scrimmage, not last year. 
 

Didn’t see the scrimmage so no opinion there. Although from the numbers I’m encouraged. I care more about his completion percentage than yards and TD/INTs at this point of the pre-season. Want to see him settled and in-rhythm. The completion % is a good thing to see.

1 hour ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I looked this up previously so I don’t remember the numbers exactly.  The Chargers led the league in drops, but had like 100 more pass attempts.

You have to go by drop percentage which the Jets led by a wide margin. 

I’d be interested to see where he would rank if he suffered “only” a league-mean drop percentage. I hypothesize it would not reflect a material improvement as far as his various statistics go, but I leave it to a proponent of the argument to make their own case, if they wish. I’d certainly enjoy seeing the numbers.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I didn't take your opinion but simple asked a question (note the ? at the end of my sentence)  It seemed like that's what were you alluding to - so I asked because it seemed illogical to me.  Apparently you don't believe that.

 

 

This has been posted here a few times, but since you asked..

I do think many here are still too backward looking looking.  That's not what I'm trying to do.  Right now my concern is about this upcoming season - the reason last year's drops came up (for me) was because those concerns resurfaced during the scrimmage.  Just like if Zach starting dirting balls in the scrimmage there would be a major concern because it was a trend from last year - but certainly wouldn't change anything from last year.

 

Well, we disagree on the severity of the problem last year — and probably we also disagree on the relative allocation of responsibility for the drops — but we certainly agree less drops is generally better, except in the case where they are eliminated by overly-restricting the offense.

[Supersonic]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Show where any of this is happening as a norm?  Surely he hasn't been perfect, but no QB is...

Show me where you've seen him stare down receivers?

Show me where you've seen him force throws?

Show me where you've seen him make poor decisions on a regular basis?

Look, I'm not saying he's been great in camp and I agree he needs reps to continue to grow - I do think it's obvious he's progressing - and that should make Jet fans happy...

but for whatever reason (specifically the staring down reciever thing) has beomce something people continue to repeat and I've seen no evidence to support that - in fact watching the video from the scrimmage - it's clear he's not doing that at all...

Watch the video again.  I only saw it twice, but it happened nonetheless.  None of his mistakes were glaring, but they are there.  Interceptions are mistakes (forced throws or poor decisions perhaps?).  You won't find the words 'regular basis in my post.  Facts are facts.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

I don’t care who else has a similar number of drops, I’d bet Zach came on fewer passes.  And we don’t know if the dro;s we’re more impactful or not.

He want good last year.  But no one would have had success with the receivers he had.

A fan has the option to view things in such a way but for me, these factors which you don’t care about are critical in any objective analysis.

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

A fan has the option to view things in such a way but for me, these factors which you don’t care about are critical in any objective analysis.

I think the argument is that the total number of drops is meaningless - what matters is what percentage of your passes were dropped. 

[slimjasi]

23 minutes ago, jgb said:

I’d be interested to see where he would rank if he suffered “only” a league-mean drop percentage. I hypothesize it would not reflect a material improvement as far as his various statistics go, but I leave it to a proponent of the argument to make their own case, if they wish. I’d certainly enjoy seeing the numbers.

Unfortunately, there is no completely objective way to do this that I am aware of - simply because all drops are not equal - which drops are we going to retroactively covert to catches? 

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

We’re saying he was good in the scrimmage, not last year.  

This, to me, is the salient point. 

From all of the information we have been given (stats + 5 reported drops), it appears that he threw the ball accurately and generally made good decisions in the scrimmage. He led two scoring drives and threw one bad interception, going 12 of 19 with 5 drops. That's an accurate day. 

Overall, he had a solid day - it seems to be that the "yeah, but he sucked LAST YEAR" interjections aren't relevant to the discussion at hand. 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

48 minutes ago, jgb said:

Didn’t see the scrimmage so no opinion there. Although from the numbers I’m encouraged. I care more about his completion percentage than yards and TD/INTs at this point of the pre-season. Want to see him settled and in-rhythm. The completion % is a good thing to see.

I’d be interested to see where he would rank if he suffered “only” a league-mean drop percentage. I hypothesize it would not reflect a material improvement as far as his various statistics go, but I leave it to a proponent of the argument to make their own case, if they wish. I’d certainly enjoy seeing the numbers.

I ran the numbers while you were gone over the winter, but I believe it brought him up to the mid to lower 60’s completion percentage. 

[jgb]

19 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I ran the numbers while you were gone over the winter, but I believe it brought him up to the mid to lower 60’s completion percentage. 

Did you do the same for every QB or does only the Jets QB get credit for receiver drops?

Be interested in the numbers if you could please link your post. Thank you.

[GreenReaper]

1 hour ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I ran the numbers while you were gone over the winter, but I believe it brought him up to the mid to lower 60’s completion percentage. 

I just said in another thread...

If Zach can sling it around this year at a 63+%(less drops) to all of those playmakers he has to work with.  Big plays...big things...are gonna happen for the NYJ.  

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, GreenReaper said:

I just said in another thread...

If Zach can sling it around this year at a 63+%(less drops) to all of those playmakers he has to work with.  Big plays...big things...are gonna happen for the NYJ.  

If I can only choose one, I’d hope for better throws over less drops.

[jgb]

54 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Unfortunately, there is no completely objective way to do this that I am aware of - simply because all drops are not equal - which drops are we going to retroactively covert to catches? 

I vote none. A QB is what he is.

[jgb]

59 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I think the argument is that the total number of drops is meaningless - what matters is what percentage of your passes were dropped. 

Fine. Even adjusting down to league mean we are not talking about the difference between the worst rated passer and even an average one.

An improvement needs to come from within. Reducing drops to league average is not going to automatically lead to competent QB play.