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Joe Flacco has been "on fire" as the Jets starter


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8 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Glenn Foley was the started in 2008.  Vinny was the backup and got the job when Foley got hurt.  

I know.  After losing a game where he played well and the defense gave the game away and a loss to the Ravens where he threw a lot of picks while injured and hid the injury from Parcells 

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3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Gotcha. I guess I’d just say that it’s hard to establish a threshold for Zach vs the one you might have for Flacco/White, because the entire premise of suffering through these joyless nightmare games with Zach Wilson is that he’s going to become an elite player when it’s all said and done. He is so, so bad right now, but we’ve been promised this elite-level Patrick Mahomes-in-waiting prospect. What does that progression look like and how do we measure it? IMO, that falls on Saleh and Douglas for handing him the starting job pre-draft: we all got to see how terrible he looked from Day One, so any marginal improvements he makes have to be weighed against the expectation that he’ll be great at some nebulous point in the future. 

You don't know when the light goes on or if it ever will.   Could be game 1 or game 3.

I can see starting Flacco because Zach is hurt.  I can see staying with the hot hand because if you're winning you can't sacrifice the team for QB development.  It's not fair to the other players and coaches.  

On the other hand while we can hope that Flacco is going to have a big season and lead the Jets to victory or even Mike White might, they also could both be a pile of hot garbage and the team could be lossing with one or both of them.   (Yes Jet Nut, I recognize that Flacco could suck and Mike White is more than likely to be more expossed the more he plays)

Things really have to play out on the field and Zach's injury is part of how this plays out.  

It's not just abut the premise of suffering through the joyless nighmare game with Zach Wilson,  we might well be suffering through joyless nightmare games with Flacco and/or White.   These are all hypothetical situations.  

The best case scenario is Zach is healthy and gets it sooner rather than later or never.   If he's not fully healthy we play well and win with Flacco and Zach gets to watch and learn and get in some meaningful snaps.  

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12 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

IIRC, Parcells got cold feet on starting Foley after he threw three picks against the Ravens so he turned to Testaverde and never looked back

I believe Folley was hurt in that game and got another start against the Rams before Vinny took over permenately that season. 

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11 minutes ago, Biggs said:

You don't know when the light goes on or if it ever will.   Could be game 1 or game 3.

I can see starting Flacco because Zach is hurt.  I can see staying with the hot hand because if you're winning you can't sacrifice the team for QB development.  It's not fair to the other players and coaches.  

On the other hand while we can hope that Flacco is going to have a big season and lead the Jets to victory or even Mike White might, they also could both be a pile of hot garbage and the team could be lossing with one or both of them.   (Yes Jet Nut, I recognize that Flacco could suck and Mike White is more than likely to be more expossed the more he plays)

Things really have to play out on the field and Zach's injury is part of how this plays out.  

It's not just abut the premise of suffering through the joyless nighmare game with Zach Wilson,  we might well be suffering through joyless nightmare games with Flacco and/or White.   These are all hypothetical situations.  

The best case scenario is Zach is healthy and gets it sooner rather than later or never.   If he's not fully healthy we play well and win with Flacco and Zach gets to watch and learn and get in some meaningful snaps.  

I would just disagree in that bad Zach starts and decent Flacco/White starts aren’t entirely hypotheticals at this point.

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18 minutes ago, Creepy Lurker said:

This is why you don’t draft a rookie QB to a young rebuilding team. Establish the foundation with a Vet QB to help young guys and install new offensive system etc. THEN you draft a rookie QB so you can’t have the excuse of “he had no weapons” etc. The Jets have and always will be ass backwards when drafting rookie QBs. 

I think you draft a QB whenever there’s one that you like and you’re in position to do so.

However, Wilson shouldn’t have started last season until maybe the last 5 or 6 games for experience not because he won the job.

He also should have had a competition this training camp to earn starter not handed. If he lost it fine, let him work until he’s ready.

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18 minutes ago, Biggs said:

I believe Folley was hurt in that game and got another start against the Rams before Vinny took over permenately that season. 

I do remember Foley playing in that game but did he start?  I know they were beaten badly, did he come in after VT, not sure.   VT started and blew out the Colts and beat the fish so not sure why Foley would start after 2 Wins by VT but just can’t remember

EDIT:  You’re right Foley did start in the Rams, can’t remember, guess Parcells felt the starter shouldn’t lose his job to injury? 

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6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I would just disagree in that bad Zach starts and decent Flacco/White starts aren’t entirely hypotheticals at this point.

I think if the Jets D is competitive and can hold Baltimore's scoring drives down the Jets running the ball over 65% of the time no matter who the QB is.  

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Just now, Jet Nut said:

I do remember Foley playing in that game but did he start?  I know they were beaten badly, did he come in after VT, not sure.   VT started and blew out the Colts and beat the fish so not sure why Foley would start after 2 Wins by VT but just can’t remember

Foley started.  Just looked at the box score.  1st play 16 yards complete to Keyshawn Johnson followed by two Leon Johnson runs and a punt.  Lots of Johnson in that opening drive. 

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41 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

For sure they’re going to have to play him and it’s 100% the right move. Neither Flacco nor White *should* start over Zach Wilson this year. That said, a few *decent* weeks of offense under Flacco where the ball is being spread around—particularly to Elijah Moore and Garrett Wilson—is going to raise the temperature on Zach and Saleh if Zach struggles when he comes back. 

Zach, sure. Not really as sure about Saleh. 

33 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Lets say the Jets with Flacco win the first two games and they start Zach week 3 against the Bengals and the O stalls they go to Pittsburgh the following week and lose with a bad performance and you along with several members of Jet Nation including your's truly are in the stands against Miami and Zach is not doing well and were getting blown out at halftime.  

This could be a 2 and 2 team with it's first division game and Flacco has gotten us two wins and Zach still looks like he can't run the O?

You can't sacrifice the team for Zach.  This is a solid roster that may be able to compete for the playoffs.  There are jobs on the line for coaches and GM staff along with players.   You can't sacrifice the season if we have a playoff roster with Flacco for Zach. 

Granted that's unlikely but not crazy.  

It’s not sacrificing the team. The roster is full of young, largely untapped potential. Just on offense, they have Moore, MC1, GWilson, and Hall on rookie deals thru 2024. Zach’s a part of that group, and whether or not he’s going to develop is the premier issue facing the franchise right now. No matter how good Flacco looks, he’s not the future of this team. In fact, I could go so far as to say that starting Flacco for any extended period of time while Zach is healthy and ready to go would be far more detrimental to the team moving forward. They absolutely need to determine if Zach is a part of that young offensive core or not. They need to know whether they need to do something at the position next year or not. They have to play him. 

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1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Foley started.  Just looked at the box score.  1st play 16 yards complete to Keyshawn Johnson followed by two Leon Johnson runs and a punt.  Lots of Johnson in that opening drive. 

LOL, just added this to my post as an edit.  You’re right.  I forgot, guess age is setting in. 

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1 hour ago, Adoni Beast said:

I think you draft a QB whenever there’s one that you like and you’re in position to do so.

However, Wilson shouldn’t have started last season until maybe the last 5 or 6 games for experience not because he won the job.

He also should have had a competition this training camp to earn starter not handed. If he lost it fine, let him work until he’s ready.

This is something I just don't get about the way the Jets under Woody Johnson's ownership era operate. Why should a guy be anointed the starting QB based solely upon where he was drafted? Zach Wilson was the WORST STARTING QUARTERBACK IN THE WHOLE LEAGUE! How does he "earn" starter status after the crap we saw last year from him? The best player at the position should be the starter at the position. Jets players earn their position from the position they were drafted.

Joe McKnight was a perfect example of why this rule sucks. In 2010 the Jets picked Joe McKnight in the 4th round, a round they had been having a lot of success with but it was looking like that streak might be in jeopardy during training camp. McKnight walked onto the field on his 1st practice and proceeded to barf all over the End Zone. Welcome to the NFL kid! OTOH Danny Woodhead was signed in 2009 as an undrafted FA from Chadron State, a college that had only had 2 guys ever picked from it: One was Don Beebe who wore the oversized helmet and looked like the alien from The Flintstones and another was som Guard that never played as a pro. So when it came time to decide who stayed and who didn't the Jets did it the way they always do it they pick the guy who they wasted a pick on. Even though based on performance Woodhead was clearly the better player, and he would go on and have an 9 year career in which he scored 32 TDs while Joe McKnight never scored a point as a Jet (2 TD rec in KC his last year) and was out of the league in 2014 (RIP Joe)

what happens if Flacco comes out winning games and shows what he's capable of and plays like a Super Bowl MVP QB? Would you guys want to see him immediately go to the bench and Wilson given the ball? What happens if #2 plays like number 2 and the Jets lose the next 2 games? What then?

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1 hour ago, slats said:

Zach, sure. Not really as sure about Saleh. 

It’s not sacrificing the team. The roster is full of young, largely untapped potential. Just on offense, they have Moore, MC1, GWilson, and Hall on rookie deals thru 2024. Zach’s a part of that group, and whether or not he’s going to develop is the premier issue facing the franchise right now. No matter how good Flacco looks, he’s not the future of this team. In fact, I could go so far as to say that starting Flacco for any extended period of time while Zach is healthy and ready to go would be far more detrimental to the team moving forward. They absolutely need to determine if Zach is a part of that young offensive core or not. They need to know whether they need to do something at the position next year or not. They have to play him. 

The rule of thumb for young QB's used to be they sit behind  a veteran and learn the position by watching how the game is supposed to be played for 3-5 years, Somewhere along the line that all changed....and it's too bad because maybe if Geno Smith, Sam Darnold, and now Zach Wilson had been afforded that luxury time instead of being thrown to the wolves behind crap personnel the Jets wouldn't have to be drafting a QB every other year like they've been doing. 

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I want to know what all you flacco lovers are going to say when flacco score 1 td via fluke play- someone breaks free ( i.e. scoring despite his poor play ) and maybe like 10 point and a bunch of 3 and outs...like what will the rationality be...when we could have payed Mike white?? Will they stay true and just call it a bad game? Despite every game he plays is just a bad game...?????

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1 hour ago, SoFlaJets said:

The rule of thumb for young QB's used to be they sit behind  a veteran and learn the position by watching how the game is supposed to be played for 3-5 years, Somewhere along the line that all changed....and it's too bad because maybe if Geno Smith, Sam Darnold, and now Zach Wilson had been afforded that luxury time instead of being thrown to the wolves behind crap personnel the Jets wouldn't have to be drafting a QB every other year like they've been doing. 

It changed because guys like Zach drafted so high are fully guaranteed $35M or so, and the people paying that money out need to see a return on their investment. Used to be that teams had exclusive rights to the players they drafted seemingly forever, too. John Riggins leaving the Jets was a singular event once upon a time. Now you need to see what you have inside of a three year window before committing to the fifth year option or an extension or they’re gone before you get the chance. It’s a better environment today for the players to be fairly compensated, and also better for teams looking for quick fixes, but I understand pining for those particular old days. 

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2 hours ago, slats said:

In fact, I could go so far as to say that starting Flacco for any extended period of time while Zach is healthy and ready to go would be far more detrimental to the team moving forward. They absolutely need to determine if Zach is a part of that young offensive core or not. They need to know whether they need to do something at the position next year or not. They have to play him. 

If Flacco is clearly better than Zach -- and the team knows it -- I'm not sure it's better for the team to throw games away for the benefit of one vs. fifty two others.

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4 minutes ago, slats said:

It changed because guys like Zach drafted so high are fully guaranteed $35M or so, and the people paying that money out need to see a return on their investment. Used to be that teams had exclusive rights to the players they drafted seemingly forever, too. John Riggins leaving the Jets was a singular event once upon a time. Now you need to see what you have inside of a three year window before committing to the fifth year option or an extension or they’re gone before you get the chance. It’s a better environment today for the players to be fairly compensated, and also better for teams looking for quick fixes, but I understand pining for those particular old days. 

It has nothing to do with pining for old days Slats, it ONLY about being sick and tired of NOT being able to enjoy watch the only sport I can still bear to sit through from start to finish without changing the channel or quitting even watching football at all, which is something that I have been doing since that season that Chad was running that stupid Miami Wishbone, that started it, I had to stop caring about the Jets because watching them was ruining my Sundays into Mondays. I just want to see the Jets in contention again and sadly, Wilson "doesn't have the minerals" as Guy Ritchie would refer to it. 

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— Ceedee Lamb instead of Becton

— Jamar Chase (or Pitts) instead of Zach Wilson 

— Jordan Davis instead of Garrett Wilson

Starting WRs would be unstoppable:

Chase, Lamb, Moore

You could roll a JAG like Case Keenum out there and the offense would be just fine.

And interior run defense solved.

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— Ceedee Lamb instead of Becton
— Jamar Chase / Pitts instead of Zach Wilson 
— Jordan Davis instead of Garrett Wilson
Starting WRs would be unstoppable:
Chase, Lamb, Moore
You could roll a JAG like Case Keenum out there and the offense would be just fine.
And interior run defense solved.
Meh ..monday morning QBs never win brah. I doubt any team has ever drafted wrs 3 years in a row that high.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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36 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

If Flacco is clearly better than Zach -- and the team knows it -- I'm not sure it's better for the team to throw games away for the benefit of one vs. fifty two others.

They need to either be in or out with Zach. I don’t see them being able to come to that conclusion without playing him. If they can come to that conclusion before the games that count even start, then they’ve done a great disservice by not jettisoning him already.  
 
I don’t know if Zach is gonna be the guy or not and, trust me, I understand the trepidation. But I don’t entirely get every “what if” scenario being the one where Zach falls on his face. I also would suggest that the players on the team understand the dynamics of highly drafted and/or paid players and the commitment teams have to them. That, and that the best case scenario for the team is to have Zach emerge as the guy
 
Vegas has the Jets as a 5-6 win team this year. It’s no great sacrifice to spend that year doing some important experimentation. Going into next year with Zach on the roster but having no better idea about him is about as worst case scenario as it gets. 

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18 minutes ago, slats said:

They need to either be in or out with Zach. I don’t see them being able to come to that conclusion without playing him. If they can come to that conclusion before the games that count even start, then they’ve done a great disservice by not jettisoning him already.  
 
I don’t know if Zach is gonna be the guy or not and, trust me, I understand the trepidation. But I don’t entirely get every “what if” scenario being the one where Zach falls on his face. I also would suggest that the players on the team understand the dynamics of highly drafted and/or paid players and the commitment teams have to them. That, and that the best case scenario for the team is to have Zach emerge as the guy
 
Vegas has the Jets as a 5-6 win team this year. It’s no great sacrifice to spend that year doing some important experimentation. Going into next year with Zach on the roster but having no better idea about him is about as worst case scenario as it gets. 

I hear what you're saying but I guess I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that it looks like we just made a huge mistake drafting this kid second overall -- and compounding that by trotting him out there every week to lose games when the actual good moves the team has made could be bearing fruit if we went another direction feels problematic.

In short -- I get that we kind of have to play him. But he played so poorly last year and the team has looked better with a different signal caller in there every time he's been replaced that it's a tough pill to swallow.

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6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I hear what you're saying but I guess I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that it looks like we just made a huge mistake drafting this kid second overall -- and compounding that by trotting him out there every week to lose games when the actual good moves the team has made could be bearing fruit if we went another direction feels problematic.

In short -- I get that we kind of have to play him. But he played so poorly last year and the team has looked better with a different signal caller in there every time he's been replaced that it's a tough pill to swallow.

Like I said, I understand the trepidation but, they have to get him out on the field and make a true and complete evaluation. One way or the other. Sooner rather than later. 

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3 hours ago, SoFlaJets said:

This is something I just don't get about the way the Jets under Woody Johnson's ownership era operate. Why should a guy be anointed the starting QB based solely upon where he was drafted? Zach Wilson was the WORST STARTING QUARTERBACK IN THE WHOLE LEAGUE! How does he "earn" starter status after the crap we saw last year from him? The best player at the position should be the starter at the position. Jets players earn their position from the position they were drafted.

Joe McKnight was a perfect example of why this rule sucks. In 2010 the Jets picked Joe McKnight in the 4th round, a round they had been having a lot of success with but it was looking like that streak might be in jeopardy during training camp. McKnight walked onto the field on his 1st practice and proceeded to barf all over the End Zone. Welcome to the NFL kid! OTOH Danny Woodhead was signed in 2009 as an undrafted FA from Chadron State, a college that had only had 2 guys ever picked from it: One was Don Beebe who wore the oversized helmet and looked like the alien from The Flintstones and another was som Guard that never played as a pro. So when it came time to decide who stayed and who didn't the Jets did it the way they always do it they pick the guy who they wasted a pick on. Even though based on performance Woodhead was clearly the better player, and he would go on and have an 9 year career in which he scored 32 TDs while Joe McKnight never scored a point as a Jet (2 TD rec in KC his last year) and was out of the league in 2014 (RIP Joe)

what happens if Flacco comes out winning games and shows what he's capable of and plays like a Super Bowl MVP QB? Would you guys want to see him immediately go to the bench and Wilson given the ball? What happens if #2 plays like number 2 and the Jets lose the next 2 games? What then?

Zach wasn't anointed based on where he was drafted.  That's ass backwards.  He was drafted at 2 because the GM and coaching staff had absolute belief in him as an NFL starting QB.  They wanted him to have all the reps to get up to speed as quickly as possible.   Last year Zach didn't live up to the expectations of Jets management.  Jets management got it wrong last year but they did have a plan.   It seems like they haven't changed the plan although Joe Flacco is on the roster this year and is firmly the No. 2 QB.  

They didn't bring Flacco in until after Zach was hurt.  They traded for him in season.  

This years roster actually looks like with good QB play it can compete in the NFL, maybe even for a playoff spot.  Joe Flacco wasn't on the roster in TC last year.  Mike White was considered a training camp arm, not a potential starter.  

Zach earned his status based on his play before he was drafted.  He will keep it or lose it based on what he does going forward. 

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13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zack Rosenblatt (Hughes’s replacement) was asked about the Zach v Flacco dynamic right now, and he said “people he’s talked to…around the league” (which was always Hughes’s code for Mike LaFleur) told him the big positive of Flacco playing is that they’re able to coach up and evaluate the receivers better because Flacco can run the play as called and the ball gets there when it’s supposed to, as opposed to the Zach offense where Zach is “always scrambling around doing everything off-platform.” There was some word salad mixed in about how the Jets “need Zach” to reach their potential as an offense because “Zach is just so talented,” but it didn’t sound like there are a lot of tears being shed over there with Zach not playing.

Flacco should play just long enough (a month or so) to win some games behind a running attack and defense.. then the Jets could could insert Zach to remove some predictability and possibly upset some teams in October. (GB, DEN, NE) schedule would get softer after that..

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17 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Zack Rosenblatt (Hughes’s replacement) was asked about the Zach v Flacco dynamic right now, and he said “people he’s talked to…around the league” (which was always Hughes’s code for Mike LaFleur) told him the big positive of Flacco playing is that they’re able to coach up and evaluate the receivers better because Flacco can run the play as called and the ball gets there when it’s supposed to, as opposed to the Zach offense where Zach is “always scrambling around doing everything off-platform.” There was some word salad mixed in about how the Jets “need Zach” to reach their potential as an offense because “Zach is just so talented,” but it didn’t sound like there are a lot of tears being shed over there with Zach not playing.

Nor should there be.

Guys on the team aren’t blind, and I have to think most are focused on simply playing well and winning their next game.

They see in Flacco and White QBs able to make the necessary reads and get the ball out on time and on target.

Nothing flashy but at least decent, reliable, and reasonably efficient.

Nobody on the 53 other than Zach Wilson himself is pondering Wilson’s NFL future and contemplating how hypothetical scenarios might impact whether he “reaches his potential”.

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14 hours ago, slats said:

They need to either be in or out with Zach. I don’t see them being able to come to that conclusion without playing him. If they can come to that conclusion before the games that count even start, then they’ve done a great disservice by not jettisoning him already.  
 
I don’t know if Zach is gonna be the guy or not and, trust me, I understand the trepidation. But I don’t entirely get every “what if” scenario being the one where Zach falls on his face. I also would suggest that the players on the team understand the dynamics of highly drafted and/or paid players and the commitment teams have to them. That, and that the best case scenario for the team is to have Zach emerge as the guy
 
Vegas has the Jets as a 5-6 win team this year. It’s no great sacrifice to spend that year doing some important experimentation. Going into next year with Zach on the roster but having no better idea about him is about as worst case scenario as it gets. 

You play to win the game.  

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I think the thing that the "Flacco optimists" are forgetting is that the Ravens gave up on Flacco after the 2018 season.  Then the Broncos brought him in in 2019 and gave up on him after one season.  So 3 years ago, he was given up on by his 2nd team (and both are good organizations).  I don't think there are too many teams that believe (like Saleh does) that Flacco is a starter and has a lot left.  He's fine as a backup (to Mike White) but I think the dreams of him becoming 1998 Vinny are unrealistic.  Flacco lighting it up in preseason doesn't mean much.  When the real games start he'll still be 37 year old Joe Flacco.

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40 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think the thing that the "Flacco optimists" are forgetting is that the Ravens gave up on Flacco after the 2018 season.  Then the Broncos brought him in in 2019 and gave up on him after one season.  So 3 years ago, he was given up on by his 2nd team (and both are good organizations).  I don't think there are too many teams that believe (like Saleh does) that Flacco is a starter and has a lot left.  He's fine as a backup (to Mike White) but I think the dreams of him becoming 1998 Vinny are unrealistic.  Flacco lighting it up in preseason doesn't mean much.  When the real games start he'll still be 37 year old Joe Flacco.

The Joe pessimists are forgetting that we had Joe Flacco for free, cut him and missed him so much traded for him to get him back.  The Jets realized they couldn't compete without Joe Flacco on the roster.  You never know what you had until it's gone.  

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1 minute ago, Biggs said:

The Joe pessimists are forgetting that we had Joe Flacco for free, cut him and missed him so much traded for him to get him back.  The Jets realized they couldn't compete without Joe Flacco on the roster.  You never know what you had until it's gone.  

And Flacco was good enough to compete, but still lose games.  

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2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think the thing that the "Flacco optimists" are forgetting is that the Ravens gave up on Flacco after the 2018 season.  Then the Broncos brought him in in 2019 and gave up on him after one season.  So 3 years ago, he was given up on by his 2nd team (and both are good organizations).  I don't think there are too many teams that believe (like Saleh does) that Flacco is a starter and has a lot left.  He's fine as a backup (to Mike White) but I think the dreams of him becoming 1998 Vinny are unrealistic.  Flacco lighting it up in preseason doesn't mean much.  When the real games start he'll still be 37 year old Joe Flacco.

To be fair Vinny being 1998 Vinny was also unrealistic at the time until he did it. We just got to wait and find out. I honestly look forward to see if this offense can bring life into Flacco, young guns pulling up the old gunslinger. I love Flacco coming out of Delaware, genuinely excited. 

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