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The Jets Will Go as LaFleur Goes, - Not Zach, Flacco, Nor the Defense


McNeil
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I applaud any thread not related directly to Zach Wilson, Mike White, firing Saleh, Disparaging JD or criticizing Mt Becton. And so I stand up from my chair, kick it to the side, spread my arms apart and offer unto you the heartiest of claps sir. Bravo ... bravo

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1 hour ago, Biggs said:

Not to mention Gase gets blamed for Douglas's first draft.  Lefleur had a lot to do with taking Zach Wilson.   Saleh is in charge of good vibrations.  

Whenever I leave a company or role, I give my team explicit permission to blame me for anything bad that happens for 6 months. Maybe Gase is just a good kid!

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1 hour ago, Dunnie said:

I applaud any thread not related directly to Zach Wilson, Mike White, firing Saleh, Disparaging JD or criticizing Mt Becton. And so I stand up from my chair, kick it to the side, spread my arms apart and offer unto you the heartiest of claps sir. Bravo ... bravo

Thanks for bringing up Becton.  What's the over/under on his current weight?  

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Just now, Biggs said:

Thanks for bringing up Becton.  What's the over/under on his current weight?  

Impossible to say because in the time it takes to write a number, it’s already gone up.

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4 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Idk, call me crazy but I think Lil Mikey proved himself last year.   I have more confidence in him than any other coach on the team quite honestly. 

Of the 3 Stooges, I have more confidence in Curly’s ability to comprehend particle physics.

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35 minutes ago, jgb said:

Whenever I leave a company or role, I give my team explicit permission to blame me for anything bad that happens for 6 months. Maybe Gase is just a good kid!

I got news for you, when you leave a company they are blaming you for everything whether you give them permission or not

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23 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I got news for you, when you leave a company they are blaming you for everything whether you give them permission or not

This is correct except I’ve brought some people along the way so some of them have a sense of personal loyalty, misguided as that might be!

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13 hours ago, McNeil said:

Whoever is under center Joe D has amassed more than enough talent for that QB to succeed - if LaFleur brings a gun to the gun fight. Unlike the first part of last year when he carried a knife, and called the game like a coward.

Before Zach was injured last season, LaFleur's tendencies were obvious for all the world to see. Thus the opposition ate the Jets offense alive. It was way worse than it should've been; it was an. anemic. After Zach got hurt LaFleur threw away his conservative, disjointed and most of all predictable script - and rolled the dice with Mike White. And he continued doing so for most of the remainder of the season. And like that the Jets offense was noticeably better.

No, this season doesn't revolve around Zach or Flacco, nor the defense (the defense will do its job). It will turn on LaFleur (and thus Saleh as his boss). He has enough talent to put some points on the board. In today's offense-friendly NFL you need a dynamic, creative, fearless OC leading your team. Is LaFleur that man?

Here we have a perfect example of circular reasoning.

LaFleur is the single best thing about the entire coaching staff. The reason he called the games the way he did in the beginning was because of Zach. The reason for the failures was because Zach couldn't execute. Unless you're arguing that LaFleur purposefully called plays with the expected result of failure.

When Zach got hurt, as you pointed out, the gameplans changed and we got more aggressive. Then, when Zach came back, we went into shell mode again.

The only difference between Zach's first 6 games and the rest of his games was his execution of the conservative play calling. That's why he didn't throw a single INT in the final 4 games, but also only threw 3 TDs across an average of 24 attempts per game. That's a TD percentage of 3.

That means that if we were to remove all of the bad from Zach, and only look at those last 4 games which some around here have labeled "Awesome", the extrapolated numbers would place 28th in the league last year for TD%. So whoopty doo that he didn't throw any INTs, he also didn't throw much at all - and that was by design to limit his exposure.

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9 hours ago, Mogglez said:

If you actually read the post, and it’s so painfully clear that you didn’t, the first line, literally, discusses the point it is trying to make:

Mog, I read the OP, and to help you out I will quote the actual OP:

"Unlike the first part of last year when he carried a knife, and called the game like a coward."

This is factually inaccurate, and pretty insulting to our O-Co. 

LaFleur called what he did because of the QB he had on the field, one who was clearly and obviously not ready for the NFL level.  Not because he was a "coward".

"After Zach got hurt LaFleur threw away his conservative, disjointed and most of all predictable script - and rolled the dice with Mike White. And he continued doing so for most of the remainder of the season. And like that the Jets offense was noticeably better."

The Jets Offense was "noticeably better" specifically because of the QB's we played while Zach was hurt were better able to execute the system successfully.  The offense was better without Zach than with him, the other QB's were better able to execute the system, and it devolved again once Wilson returned, where the entire focus of the O shifted to became "not throwing INT's, build ZW's confidence", which to their credit they did a pretty good job of at the cost of offensive production.

Put simply, I disagree wholesale with the OP's contention that the O's issues last year was LaFluer's "cowardice" as an O-Co/playcaller. 

The issue was an unready, unprepared young QB who couldn't correctly execute the system. 

We will see if that has improved once Zach is healthy and available again.

-------

I've held off on the rest of my reply, because honestly escalating our mutual annoyance with each other serves no purpose.   

 

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10 hours ago, Warfish said:

This season is not on LaFleur. 

It's 100% on Zach Wilson.

Trying to portray it otherwise is the same kind of pre-emptive excuse making we've heard many times before. 

In before "we can't judge Zach, LaFleur's playcalling sucked, we have to wait, and see Zach with a real O-Co".

Hell, that was the meme for a big chunk of early season last year, till it got blown open when the backups played.  

Some take that our second year play caller has to be the same type play caller we saw in the second half of last season.   
Then turning that into preemptive excuse making for the QB you predict will fail.   Or that any of this was said in regards to ZW specifically, not “whoever is under center”

Something as basic and fundamental as LaFleur has to be good as a play caller for the offense to thrive isnt a thing.   It’s excuse making.
 

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10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

LaFleur called what he did because of the QB he had on the field, one who was clearly and obviously not ready for the NFL level.  Not because he was a "coward".

"After Zach got hurt LaFleur threw away his conservative, disjointed and most of all predictable script - and rolled the dice with Mike White. And he continued doing so for most of the remainder of the season. And like that the Jets offense was noticeably better."

Actually this is the opposite of what happened on the field.  The offense was simplified when MW was in at QB, gone where the longer downfield passing attack.  The offense didn’t resemble the same passing game pre injury.  
 

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14 hours ago, McNeil said:

Whoever is under center Joe D has amassed more than enough talent for that QB to succeed - if LaFleur brings a gun to the gun fight. Unlike the first part of last year when he carried a knife, and called the game like a coward.

Before Zach was injured last season, LaFleur's tendencies were obvious for all the world to see. Thus the opposition ate the Jets offense alive. It was way worse than it should've been; it was an. anemic. After Zach got hurt LaFleur threw away his conservative, disjointed and most of all predictable script - and rolled the dice with Mike White. And he continued doing so for most of the remainder of the season. And like that the Jets offense was noticeably better.

No, this season doesn't revolve around Zach or Flacco, nor the defense (the defense will do its job). It will turn on LaFleur (and thus Saleh as his boss). He has enough talent to put some points on the board. In today's offense-friendly NFL you need a dynamic, creative, fearless OC leading your team. Is LaFleur that man?

Seriously? Zach couldn't  even handle the small part of the playbook he was given. 

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Mog, I read the OP, and to help you out I will quote the actual OP:

"Unlike the first part of last year when he carried a knife, and called the game like a coward."

This is factually inaccurate, and pretty insulting to our O-Co. 

LaFleur called what he did because of the QB he had on the field, one who was clearly and obviously not ready for the NFL level.  Not because he was a "coward".

"After Zach got hurt LaFleur threw away his conservative, disjointed and most of all predictable script - and rolled the dice with Mike White. And he continued doing so for most of the remainder of the season. And like that the Jets offense was noticeably better."

The Jets Offense was "noticeably better" specifically because of the QB's we played while Zach was hurt were better able to execute the system successfully.  The offense was better without Zach than with him, the other QB's were better able to execute the system, and it devolved again once Wilson returned, where the entire focus of the O shifted to became "not throwing INT's, build ZW's confidence", which to their credit they did a pretty good job of at the cost of offensive production.

Put simply, I disagree wholesale with the OP's contention that the O's issues last year was LaFluer's "cowardice" as an O-Co/playcaller. 

The issue was an unready, unprepared young QB who couldn't correctly execute the system. 

We will see if that has improved once Zach is healthy and available again.

-------

I've held off on the rest of my reply, because honestly escalating our mutual annoyance with each other serves no purpose.   

 

‘Fish, that’s all well and good.  Your points and feelings on LaFleur are fine.  I have no issues with that.  I have an issue, and not even solely with you, with the assertion that this thread was designed to “make excuses” for Zach, let alone anyone.  The OP, literally says that the QB doesn’t matter.  No one said anything along the lines of “excuses” and blindly insinuating it is how this thread gets derailed.  As of the writing of this post, this thread already appears like it’s heading into another Wilson crap-fest.  There are 7 other threads already destroyed or discussing Wilson where you could have added the feeling you have that people are trying make excuses for him.  There is/was no need to turn this into an 8th one with baseless accusations.

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5 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

‘Fish, that’s all well and good.  Your points and feelings on LaFleur are fine.  I have no issues with that.  I have an issue, and not even solely with you, with the assertion that this thread was designed to “make excuses” for Zach, let alone anyone.  The OP, literally says that the QB doesn’t matter.  No one said anything along the lines of “excuses” and blindly insinuating it is how this thread gets derailed.  As of the writing of this post, this thread already appears like it’s heading into another Wilson crap-fest.  There are 7 other threads already destroyed or discussing Wilson where you could have added the feeling you have that people are trying make excuses for him.  There is/was no need to turn this into an 8th one with baseless accusations.

I welcome your disagreement Mog, as always.

However, my feelings/interpretation of the motivation behind calling LaFleur a "coward" in the OP, pretty strong language, and claiming "the QB doesn't matter" is mine and mine alone.  I believe opinions such as that are designed, knowingly or unknowingly, to remove the burden of responsibility from Zach Wilson for last year, and place it elsewhere.  In this case, on the back of the so-called "coward" LaFleur.  

Of course no one came out and said "I am making excuses for Zach".  That's not how this works. 

But that is, IMO, exactly what the OP was doing and intended to do.  His argument, summed up, is "LaFleur the coward is responsible, the QB isn't".  And that is an opinion that I do not agree with, and directly warrants comment re: Zach given how integral Zach is to the inherant claim of the OP itself.

Mog, I will always welcome people who disagree with me.  That is the point of a form, open dialogue.  If you disagree with some aspect of my opinion, feel free to say so.  I think you know by now I will (generally) respond to almost anything.

If the thread were about D-linemen, I'd likely agree with your concern.  But it wasn't.  This OP was directly and specifically about the relationship of responsibility between the Offense, the O-Co and the QB's.  

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4 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Here we have a perfect example of circular reasoning.

LaFleur is the single best thing about the entire coaching staff. The reason he called the games the way he did in the beginning was because of Zach. The reason for the failures was because Zach couldn't execute. Unless you're arguing that LaFleur purposefully called plays with the expected result of failure.

When Zach got hurt, as you pointed out, the gameplans changed and we got more aggressive. Then, when Zach came back, we went into shell mode again.

The only difference between Zach's first 6 games and the rest of his games was his execution of the conservative play calling. That's why he didn't throw a single INT in the final 4 games, but also only threw 3 TDs across an average of 24 attempts per game. That's a TD percentage of 3.

That means that if we were to remove all of the bad from Zach, and only look at those last 4 games which some around here have labeled "Awesome", the extrapolated numbers would place 28th in the league last year for TD%. So whoopty doo that he didn't throw any INTs, he also didn't throw much at all - and that was by design to limit his exposure.

I think this sums up things very very well and agree.   the knock was that he wasn't ready for the NFL game and that was true but he also wasn't ready to execute the O as proscribed by the OC.   Like you stated, he seems to play better at the end of the year when he played within the scheme.   AS others have stated, we'll see what happens when he gets back, 

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7 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

one thing is clear, we dont have to worry about him leaving to be head coach somewhere anytime soon.  You can't be head coach from the booth.

Besides no one poaches sh*tty OCs ti be their head coach

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1 hour ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

This is one of those lies, damned lies, and statistics statistics. Most of those games were played early in the season when the rookie QB and rookie WR and, really, the entire offense was still figuring it out under their rookie OC. None of the numbers were good. In their last two games together after Zach came back and before Moore went out, Moore had 10 catches for 123 yards and a TD - or about what he was doing with the other QBs on the team. If Moore hadn’t gotten hurt, I think it’s a much different second half of the season for Zach and the Jets. 

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3 minutes ago, slats said:

This is one of those lies, damned lies, and statistics statistics. Most of those games were played early in the season when the rookie QB and rookie WR and, really, the entire offense was still figuring it out under their rookie OC. None of the numbers were good. In their last two games together after Zach came back and before Moore went out, Moore had 10 catches for 123 yards and a TD - or about what he was doing with the other QBs on the team. If Moore hadn’t gotten hurt, I think it’s a much different second half of the season for Zach and the Jets. 

How is objective data a "lie"?

You can try to spin things if you like, but the numbers are what they are.

Did aliens invade Wilson's body?  Was he legally insane and therefore not responsible for his play?

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18 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

How is objective data a "lie"?

You can try to spin things if you like, but the numbers are what they are.

Did aliens invade Wilson's body?  Was he legally insane and therefore not responsible for his play?

You see, it’s a well known phrase, used to convey the idea that sometimes raw numbers fail to tell the whole story or, in fact, tell a very misleading one. Like the stat you posted, for instance. 
 
image.png

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13 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:


Im not saying that coaching isn’t important or that there aren’t bad OCs.  What I am saying is that coaches don’t suddenly forget how to coach if they’ve made it this far in the profession.  

Bad QBs make OCs look bad no matter how good the OC (with rare exceptions).  Very good QBs can make OCs look like geniuses.  Some OCs can help good QBs become great.  But NO OC can take a sh*t QB and make him look good.  If Zach is sh*t there’s nothing Lafleur can really do to help him.  

yea yea, i understand...

I think this conversation is more about who's brain/decision making is, or ought to be, relied on. We don't want to create a sense of "Part of the QBs job is to be engineer the offense..."  They're there to execute. Consistently, and efficiency do what's asked of them. Not when they feel like it, or if they like it, or if it meshes with what you want to do. If the OC calls for the flanker to run a 5 yard skinny post... then, throw the fcking 5 yard skinny post. That relationship in their roles places a huge emphasis on the OC to know "what's the right call"... not to check in the QB and say "what do you think?"

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1 hour ago, Paradis said:

yea yea, i understand...

I think this conversation is more about who's brain/decision making is, or ought to be, relied on. We don't want to create a sense of "Part of the QBs job is to be engineer the offense..."  They're there to execute. Consistently, and efficiency do what's asked of them. Not when they feel like it, or if they like it, or if it meshes with what you want to do. If the OC calls for the flanker to run a 5 yard skinny post... then, throw the fcking 5 yard skinny post. That relationship in their roles places a huge emphasis on the OC to know "what's the right call"... not to check in the QB and say "what do you think?"

 

I hear ya.  Young QB's certainly can't be expected to call the plays.  And in fact very few veteran QB's get to that point where they can seize control of the offense away from the OC.  But the way people post around here you would think these OC's are willfully sabotaging young QB's from doing their basic duties.  

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16 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

How is objective data a "lie"?

You can try to spin things if you like, but the numbers are what they are.

Did aliens invade Wilson's body?  Was he legally insane and therefore not responsible for his play?

Numbers don’t always tell the whole story, that’s what the quote means. 

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