Popular Post Dunnie Posted August 31, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combined with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) Edited August 31, 2022 by Dunnie 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenwichjetfan Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Just now, Dunnie said: Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combine with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) Pic not working, but I'd be interested in seeing your chart. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnie Posted August 31, 2022 Author Share Posted August 31, 2022 refresh ? its displaying for me on my pc and my phone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoot-Face Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Dunnie said: Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combine with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) Holy sh*t, look at Mike White's average target depth, lol. EDIT: Maybe unfair to compare his numbers to the rest, as it was such a small sample size. It may have evened out over a full season. Still, it shows what a lot of people were saying about him. Gets the ball out quickly, yes, but was Mr. Checkdown. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post nycdan Posted August 31, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dunnie said: Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combine with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) Interesting note on this. Most of the QBs with a long time-to-release are the most mobile QBs. Allen, Russ, Lamar, Hurts. Wilson did have a lot of throws on the move as well thanks to some spotty interior OL play. On the other end, you see the statues with quicker releases (Tannehill, Ben, Cousins, Mac Jones) because if they don't get rid of it fast, they are eating turf. I'd love to see an adjusted version of this for in-the-pocket passes only. Might be a much different pattern. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, Dunnie said: Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combine with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) While I get the point, any metric that has Russell Wilson behind Sam Darnold and Geno Smith is suspect IMO. There are a lot of factors involved in this metric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnie Posted August 31, 2022 Author Share Posted August 31, 2022 Just now, Flea Flicking Frank said: While I get the point, any metric that has Russell Wilson behind Sam Darnold and Geno Smith is suspect IMO. There are a lot of factors involved in this metric Not so much .. tells me Russell was running for his life and chucking the ball deep. Will be interesting to watch him this year, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Pocket toughness. Don’t run out the back door situational awareness. SLIDE changing the play at the line and it’s a good decision. moving safeties with his eyes. throwing guys open or to safety. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets Voice of Reason Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 I think it's a good metric. Nice call. I think completion percentage going up on the flats and short yardage throws is also another low-hanging fruit one that I hope he cleans up. He also needs to improve on red zone scoring. We have multiple opportunities for mismatches in a compressed area and in theory decent power rushing options. There needs to be an improvement there. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoot-Face Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: While I get the point, any metric that has Russell Wilson behind Sam Darnold and Geno Smith is suspect IMO. There are a lot of factors involved in this metric It doesn't clearly put Russell Wilson behind Darnold and Geno. It shows he holds the ball a tad bit longer yes, but with a much higher average target depth. That'd suggest that Wilson is either eluding the rush, or extending plays to push the ball downfield while the latter two are holding on to the ball only to dump it off. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnie Posted August 31, 2022 Author Share Posted August 31, 2022 ... also tells you how dominant Brady is ... Jesus. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FidelioJet Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 43 minutes ago, Dunnie said: Not so much .. tells me Russell was running for his life and chucking the ball deep. Will be interesting to watch him this year, Great chart and I agree where we would like to see him. To be fair though, Zach Wilson was doing the same - specifically early. Question for you - Does this have game by game data? I only ask because I am curious as to how Zach looked in the Bucs game on this chart. I'm not saying one game matters - but I am curious if he was in the zone you're talking about during that game (at least showing he's capable.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 2 hours ago, nycdan said: Interesting note on this. Most of the QBs with a long time-to-release are the most mobile QBs. Allen, Russ, Lamar, Hurts. Wilson did have a lot of throws on the move as well thanks to some spotty interior OL play. On the other end, you see the statues with quicker releases (Tannehill, Ben, Cousins, Mac Jones) because if they don't get rid of it fast, they are eating turf. I'd love to see an adjusted version of this for in-the-pocket passes only. Might be a much different pattern. EDIT: IT WAS YPA NOT ADOT TOM YOU DUMMY The way this is measured is the clock stops when the ball is released or the QB crosses the LOS on a scramble, so Zach being in that group is very very bad and it’s why the analytics guys mostly think Zach is doomed. It’s one thing to hold the ball forever, but it’s another thing to hold the ball forever trying to complete a five yard pass. The conclusion is that he’s incapable of anticipating coverages. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherwiseHappyinLife Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 27 minutes ago, Dunnie said: Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combined with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) In before @Spoot-Face , at least 10 MILFs and 3 GILFs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets Voice of Reason Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, Dunnie said: ... also tells you how dominant Brady is ... Jesus. Seriously. The other takeaway isn't surprising, the en vogue offenses are all timing based right now. While it's appealing to get caught up in finding talent at QB that can operate off-schedule, the Jets have seemed to have prioritized that (Darnold, Wilson) over actual meat-and-potatoes production within the construct of the offense. From a qualitative sense, is Wilson improving disguising play action? Last year he had bouts where he put minimal effort into that and this offense is heavily predicated on explosives. Is he picking his spots to go deep? Mike White is captain checkdown, and I don't want that out of my franchise QB. But Zach Wilson too often left open checkdown options and opted for low percentage throws. Which was a big problem at BYU, but he just out-talented the DB most times because of his natural talent. Is Wilson's footwork improving? Little things like planting the lead foot in the direction of your throws. He is very accurate on side arm throws, but it also leaves him with poor mechanics on the "gimmes" which I hate because he kept acting like it was a "got to just be natural and throw it", which isn't 100% the only problem. He didn't have yips, his footwork was messy at times last year. He cleaned up turnovers at the end of the year, but without looking too closely, I bet his average depth also suffered as a result. Albeit half the team was on IR or out the last few weeks. Want to see more scoring production. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 36 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said: Holy sh*t, look at Mike White's average target depth, lol. EDIT: Maybe unfair to compare his numbers to the rest, as it was such a small sample size. It may have evened out over a full season. Still, it shows what a lot of people were saying about him. Gets the ball out quickly, yes, but was Mr. Checkdown. He definitely has been a major checkdown Charlie, so far. If he ever does get more playing time, I'd like to see him throw the ball down the field. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 9 minutes ago, T0mShane said: The way this is measured is the clock stops when the ball is released or the QB crosses the LOS on a scramble, so Zach being in that group is very very bad and it’s why the analytics guys mostly think Zach is doomed. It’s one thing to hold the ball forever, but it’s another thing to hold the ball forever trying to complete a five yard pass. The conclusion is that he’s incapable of anticipating coverages. Are you even looking at the chart? Zach's depth of target is pretty much in line with the release time. It's not five yard passes. That's Mike White. Also, Zach scrambles laterally a lot because he had no interior protection or maybe even as a designed play. So by your definition, the clock would still be running. Remember this play? It probably took 5-6 seconds for him to pass. I'll take it every time 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointman Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 40 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said: Holy sh*t, look at Mike White's average target depth, lol. EDIT: Maybe unfair to compare his numbers to the rest, as it was such a small sample size. It may have evened out over a full season. Still, it shows what a lot of people were saying about him. Gets the ball out quickly, yes, but was Mr. Checkdown. Mike White sucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 There are many, many variables involved in this and people are way oversimplifying it. Holding the ball for a long time could be a factor of looking downfield and having nobody open, only to check down, it could be not reading the defense properly, it could be scrambling for life leading to an eventual check down. There are many variables in most metrics and this has as much to do with the total offense as it does the QB who is a very important but not sole factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 I'm a big yards/attempt guy, myself. This is very interesting, but no single metric is the end all be all. I think we need to see major improvement from Wilson across the board - completion percentage, yards/attempt, average release time, TD/INT ratio, etc., You'll notice that Josh Allen, Russell Wilson, and Lamar Jackson all hold the ball longer than you'd ideally like -but they make it work because they make plays down the field. There is more than one way to skin the old cat. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 22 minutes ago, T0mShane said: It’s one thing to hold the ball forever, but it’s another thing to hold the ball forever trying to complete a five yard pass. Take another look - that's not what this chart is showing at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 32 minutes ago, Spoot-Face said: It doesn't clearly put Russell Wilson behind Darnold and Geno. It shows he holds the ball a tad bit longer yes, but with a much higher average target depth. That'd suggest that Wilson is either eluding the rush, or extending plays to push the ball downfield while the latter two are holding on to the ball only to dump it off. Its largely impossible to understand initial target downfield vs actual target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointman Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: There are many, many variables involved in this and people are way oversimplifying it. Holding the ball for a long time could be a factor of looking downfield and having nobody open, only to check down, it could be not reading the defense properly, it could be scrambling for life leading to an eventual check down. There are many variables in most metrics and this has as much to do with the total offense as it does the QB who is a very important but not sole factor. Common knowledge around these parts. This isn't reddit. And a good QB, still finds a way to get the ball out of his hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0mShane Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, nycdan said: Are you even looking at the chart? Zach's depth of target is pretty much in line with the release time. It's not five yard passes. That's Mike White. Also, Zach scrambles laterally a lot because he had no interior protection or maybe even as a designed play. So by your definition, the clock would still be running. Remember this play? It probably took 5-6 seconds for him to pass. I'll take it every time Just now, slimjasi said: Take another look - that's not what this chart is showing at all. My bad. I confused depth of target for YPA. Zach’s YPA was a pitiful 6.1. Mike White’s was 7.2. Zach threw it further, but couldn’t complete any of them 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 minute ago, pointman said: Common knowledge around these parts. This isn't reddit. And a good QB, still finds a way to get the ball out of his hands. The "good" QB's are all over the place on this chart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 minute ago, T0mShane said: My bad. I confused depth of target for YPA. Zach’s YPA was a pitiful 6.1. Mike White’s was 7.2. Zach threw it further, but couldn’t complete any of them Yes the biggest two things for me that Wilson needs to improve are completion percentage and yards/attempt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, T0mShane said: My bad. I confused depth of target for YPA. Zach’s YPA was a pitiful 6.1. Mike White’s was 7.2. Zach threw it further, but couldn’t complete any of them That last point is fair and concerning. As is his Sack% of over 10%. Those are the numbers that need to get better by a lot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointman Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: The "good" QB's are all over the place on this chart There are very few good quarterbacks on that chart. Mike White not being one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Flicking Frank Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Just now, pointman said: There are very few good quarterbacks on that chart. Mike White not being one of them. if you were to look at the "consensus" top 10 QB's in the league, and then break this chart into quadrants, the top 10 guys are all over the place and have a lot of very bad QB's around them, IMO this is not a very good metric to evaluate a QB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClashFan Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1. Stay healthy. So, slide or go out of bounds when running, and throw the ball away judiciously. He'll never reach whatever potential he has if some basic decision-making doesn't improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, Dunnie said: Time of Release to Target Depth .. this will tell me if he is stuck tracking only shallow or deep targets and also tell me if he is getting the ball out under the league average 2.7 seconds. This combined with accuracy stats will tell me if the problem is Zach. I would be ECSTATIC if he falls into the zone I marked in green. This will tell be the game is slowing down for him, he is seeing the field and is able to play effectively and responsibly. Look at the sh*ttiest QBs on this chart and where their throw depth to time of release was. (poor Geno) That Tom Brady a**h*** is pretty good at football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimjasi Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: if you were to look at the "consensus" top 10 QB's in the league, and then break this chart into quadrants, the top 10 guys are all over the place and have a lot of very bad QB's around them, IMO this is not a very good metric to evaluate a QB After looking at the chart for a few minutes, I agree. Again - this points to my argument that you can never just look at one metric. Football is a game with a lot of moving parts and it's hard to adequately summarize performance with a single number. For example, I'm a big fan of yards/attempt - but Josh Allen only averaged 6.8 yards/attempt last season, which was 24th best in the league. You have to look at everything. Completion percentage, yards/attempt, TD/INT ratio, QBR, average release time, etc., 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pointman Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: if you were to look at the "consensus" top 10 QB's in the league, and then break this chart into quadrants, the top 10 guys are all over the place and have a lot of very bad QB's around them, IMO this is not a very good metric to evaluate a QB Agreed. You know what is? Wins and touchdowns. You know who has zero of both? Ashtyn Davis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nycdan Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: if you were to look at the "consensus" top 10 QB's in the league, and then break this chart into quadrants, the top 10 guys are all over the place and have a lot of very bad QB's around them, IMO this is not a very good metric to evaluate a QB The one that really stands out as an outlier to me is Justin Herbert. He looks like a checkdown QB on this chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunnie Posted August 31, 2022 Author Share Posted August 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said: if you were to look at the "consensus" top 10 QB's in the league, and then break this chart into quadrants, the top 10 guys are all over the place and have a lot of very bad QB's around them, IMO this is not a very good metric to evaluate a QB Meh .. look at my crosshair .. ALL the QBs around that mark are very good QBs .. even those not highlighted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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