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How much more time should Joe Douglas have?


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I would offer:

-- Unfettered access to Woody's yacht for a .500 record

-- 1 year extension for every playoff win

-- 1M kicker for 1st playoff appearance

-- Statue at MetLife for Super Bowl appearance

-- Super Bowl win gets him a yacht the size of Rhode Island

I think this is fair.  Gotta demand results, dangle some carrots at this point.

No playoff wins in 6 years would mean friggin' seeya.  I don't care if you bought Manhattan from the Dutch for $20.

 

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I give him a Couple more years. Even if Zach bombs, he’d still be running the show. But I’d put him on thin ice at that point. His 1st/2nd year as GM were abominable: draft, FA’s signings were just awful. But he gets a semi pass since he came on after Macc made his draft picks and was getting his feet wet. But there must be significant progress this year. Tough schedule but no reason they shouldn’t eek out 6-7 wins and see these youngins make considerable strides. 
 

The 2022 NY Jets 

 

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  • I see progress from JD as a GM.  
  • The selection of Saleh as HC, which was JD's, could be dubious unless it looks better.  The Jets play a 4-3 and have 11 DL on the 53.  They need 5 OL and have 8 OL.   This defense is not dependent on a QB.  It can't be the worst defense in the NFL.  
  • I am not sympathetic on the Becton pick but he learned.  Becton was a 2nd round pick because of his body issues-he could have worked his way into a second contract like Orlando Brown.  I am quasi-sympathetic on the ZW pick, with a twist.  Sources I have indicate that Woody really wanted ZW, and that the Coaches did not want ZW.  ZW does not look good now, but I think he was worth the chance to have someone to build an offense around.  The Bucs built around Jameis, he moved on after his 5th year, and then he was replaced with Brady.  Similar with Cleveland.  There was no other QB on the roster-no sense drafting Chase or Pitts with no one to throw to him.  BUT, if by next year Lance and Fields are functional, decent QBs, and ZW still is dysfunctional, I don't know how you keep JD to pick a QB again.   The only way you keep JD is if they remind Woody on whose wanted ZW, but even then I see Woody throwing JD under the bus.  
  • Maybe if this team looks decent/good with Flacco and White, and ZW is the biggest problem do you maybe overlook the ZW pick, but that leaves the problem of who is picking the next QB.
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35 minutes ago, varjet said:
  • I see progress from JD as a GM.  
  • The selection of Saleh as HC, which was JD's, could be dubious unless it looks better.  The Jets play a 4-3 and have 11 DL on the 53.  They need 5 OL and have 8 OL.   This defense is not dependent on a QB.  It can't be the worst defense in the NFL.  
  • I am not sympathetic on the Becton pick but he learned.  Becton was a 2nd round pick because of his body issues-he could have worked his way into a second contract like Orlando Brown.  I am quasi-sympathetic on the ZW pick, with a twist.  Sources I have indicate that Woody really wanted ZW, and that the Coaches did not want ZW.  ZW does not look good now, but I think he was worth the chance to have someone to build an offense around.  The Bucs built around Jameis, he moved on after his 5th year, and then he was replaced with Brady.  Similar with Cleveland.  There was no other QB on the roster-no sense drafting Chase or Pitts with no one to throw to him.  BUT, if by next year Lance and Fields are functional, decent QBs, and ZW still is dysfunctional, I don't know how you keep JD to pick a QB again.   The only way you keep JD is if they remind Woody on whose wanted ZW, but even then I see Woody throwing JD under the bus.  
  • Maybe if this team looks decent/good with Flacco and White, and ZW is the biggest problem do you maybe overlook the ZW pick, but that leaves the problem of who is picking the next QB.

I agree they can't have the worst defense in the NFL and still look at Saleh as the answer.  If they do, I assume Ulbrich will be the scapegoat.  They seem to realize there was a personnel problem.  Last year they lost Lawson and the fallback Curry before a snap was played and Joynder from the jump.  The pass rush has added Johnson, Clemons, Martin, plus has Lawson coming back.  They added 2 new CBs on top of the best they had last year.  The D only lost Fatukasi and Maye and added Whitehead, Sauce, Reed, Martin, Johnson, Clemons.  The rest of these guys have been in the system for a year.  

They seem to realize that they needed more horses.  If they got the wrong horses I will be worried, but right now I am counting on them being better than 25th in DVOA so that I can force @T0mShane to buy and wear a Tony Adams jersey for a week straight.  As far as checking that he does, not it! 

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21 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I agree they can't have the worst defense in the NFL and still look at Saleh as the answer.  If they do, I assume Ulbrich will be the scapegoat.  They seem to realize there was a personnel problem.  Last year they lost Lawson and the fallback Curry before a snap was played and Joynder from the jump.  The pass rush has added Johnson, Clemons, Martin, plus has Lawson coming back.  They added 2 new CBs on top of the best they had last year.  The D only lost Fatukasi and Maye and added Whitehead, Sauce, Reed, Martin, Johnson, Clemons.  The rest of these guys have been in the system for a year.  

They seem to realize that they needed more horses.  If they got the wrong horses I will be worried, but right now I am counting on them being better than 25th in DVOA so that I can force @T0mShane to buy and wear a Tony Adams jersey for a week straight.  As far as checking that he does, not it! 

That is a good summary of the improved personnel on defense.  Let's see how they play.  Week 1 could be rough. 

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On 9/1/2022 at 1:13 PM, nycdan said:

Douglas is far better than any GM we've had in decades and it isn't close.  

And for those who say he needs to live or die by Zach:

Ozzie drafted Kyle Boller once.  Should BAL have fired him for that failure?

 

 

On 9/1/2022 at 1:25 PM, Jet9 said:

He (Newsome) had recently won a SB, so...

Ozzie drafted a ton of young talent.    JD in 3 drafts has not even come close to Ozzie.

 

But yes, he deserves minimum, IMO 2 years more.  

 

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14 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

How long does JD get.  
He gets another QB. 
 

If ZW hits and figures it out - JD is here for a decade

If ZW fails, JD has earned the right to pick one more 

At least that’s my thoughts on it. 

In terms of the bold above, I'm curious as to the rationale behind this.  How has JD earned it?

Do we have several All-Pro's he picked? 

Are we winning lots more games than before he started?

Apart from "we feel good about his picks, except for that first year, lets ignore that", what is the basis for having earned several more years?

If it truly is just feelings, not tangible output (yet, we'll see how 2022 looks) thats fine, but I was curious if you had any non-feeling basis (tangible things) to point to for this. 

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In my humble opinion, he has done his job and he has done it well.

The true test will be to see if he is willing to walk away from mistakes (If Wilson doesn't progress and he looks to replace him, or he moves on from other high profile acquisitions)  Patience but not stubbornness.  No one is perfect and he will have some misses.  It's how you handle the misses that sets them apart.

To me, that if he does that, he has paved his way to a long tenure.

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

In terms of the bold above, I'm curious as to the rationale behind this.  How has JD earned it?

Do we have several All-Pro's he picked? 

Are we winning lots more games than before he started?

Apart from "we feel good about his picks, except for that first year, lets ignore that", what is the basis for having earned several more years?

If it truly is just feelings, not tangible output (yet, we'll see how 2022 looks) thats fine, but I was curious if you had any non-feeling basis (tangible things) to point to for this. 

You hit the nail right on the head. Joe Douglas has NOT been a successful GM, and that is OBJECTIVELY true until this team actually succeeds.  There may be a day when we get to look back at the entire process and acknowledge how much grinding it took to finally become successful. At the moment, Joe Douglas is neither a success nor a failure. It appears that the team is trending in the right direction, but I have seen this movie before.

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15 minutes ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

You hit the nail right on the head. Joe Douglas has NOT been a successful GM, and that is OBJECTIVELY true until this team actually succeeds.  There may be a day when we get to look back at the entire process and acknowledge how much grinding it took to finally become successful. At the moment, Joe Douglas is neither a success nor a failure. It appears that the team is trending in the right direction, but I have seen this movie before.

To put it simply:

1. I like most of his moves.

2. Now I want to see results.

This doesn't feel like a radical opinion.

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The QB shouldn't be a litmus test for JD (or any GM). It's the hardest position to scout in sport. Even Ozzie Newsome whiffed what 3-4 times before finding Flacco? But Newsome built a helluva team in the meantime. JD should be judged on his entire body of work.

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3 hours ago, Warfish said:

In terms of the bold above, I'm curious as to the rationale behind this.  How has JD earned it?

Do we have several All-Pro's he picked? 

Are we winning lots more games than before he started?

Apart from "we feel good about his picks, except for that first year, lets ignore that", what is the basis for having earned several more years?

If it truly is just feelings, not tangible output (yet, we'll see how 2022 looks) thats fine, but I was curious if you had any non-feeling basis (tangible things) to point to for this. 

Good question.  The answer is Competence.

 He has shown a bssic understanding of how to build an NFL roster.  How to pay FA's, proper trade compensation, what positions to prioritize etc.   You would think these basic principals any GM should understand - but I think we've been through the past 4 that haven't been able to achieve that basic minimum.

So, what I say is this - I believe, as he followed through with a comprehensive long term strategy,. he's assembled a team that is talented enough to win. 

I also believe the one thing that can prevent those positive tangible results you're referencing is the QB failing.   Which is why I used that as the guidepost.  

He's shown to be capable - and the risk of the next guy not achieving that basic level is pretty high.

So if Zach fails - he's should get an opportunity to bring in another QB for this roster.

 

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The premise of this thread is silly. JDs job is to improve the talent on the team. Has any position group been better than it is this season over the past 5 years? JD doesn’t need to prove anything for me. He understands talent, how to use the draft and how to operate with the cap. 

if there is a clock on anyone its the HC. Because he proved nothing last season.

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It is plain to see, if they start winning some games, and soon, this question will no longer be valid, however, if they start 0-6 or 0-7 season pover by Oct 10 as usual (as I fully expect them to), unfortunately, this will be all we have to talk about. I only want to come here and gloat about my team kicking ass, but that is never able to happen. It always has to be negative because that is what they are.

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43 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Good question.  The answer is Competence.

 He has shown a bssic understanding of how to build an NFL roster.  How to pay FA's, proper trade compensation, what positions to prioritize etc.   You would think these basic principals any GM should understand - but I think we've been through the past 4 that haven't been able to achieve that basic minimum.

So, what I say is this - I believe, as he followed through with a comprehensive long term strategy,. he's assembled a team that is talented enough to win. 

I also believe the one thing that can prevent those positive tangible results you're referencing is the QB failing.   Which is why I used that as the guidepost.  

He's shown to be capable - and the risk of the next guy not achieving that basic level is pretty high.

So if Zach fails - he's should get an opportunity to bring in another QB for this roster.

 

Appreciate the reply.  I tend to agree about the competence.  Like I say, I've liked most of his moves to date, or at least understood them.

I think my view is simply this:  Ultimately, tangible results are required.  And not in some far off year, after a 2nd try at QB or a 3rd try at Head Coach.

Now.  Or near enough to now as to make no meaningful difference.  Not titles, but "competence" in the W/L record.  Something close to .500 in a league literally designed to create parity amongst it's teams.

Like I've said, if we win 3-4 games this year, perceived competence of JD or not, I think his future under the Johnsons is far less certain than many of you do.  It would his fourth year, and his third (post Gase) in full control, and we'd have (in such a case) a 10-38 record to show for it?  No one survives that so easily, not in this NFL.

And again, hopefully the Jets make all this completely moot in 2022 by winning >4 games.

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13 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Appreciate the reply.  I tend to agree about the competence.  Like I say, I've liked most of his moves to date, or at least understood them.

I think my view is simply this:  Ultimately, tangible results are required.  And not in some far off year, after a 2nd try at QB or a 3rd try at Head Coach.

Now.  Or near enough to now as to make no meaningful difference.  Not titles, but "competence" in the W/L record.  Something close to .500 in a league literally designed to create parity amongst it's teams.

Like I've said, if we win 3-4 games this year, perceived competence of JD or not, I think his future under the Johnsons is far less certain than many of you do.  It would his fourth year, and his third (post Gase) in full control, and we'd have (in such a case) a 10-38 record to show for it?  No one survives that so easily, not in this NFL.

And again, hopefully the Jets make all this completely moot in 2022 by winning >4 games.

Agreed.

I think Zach has to show something this year and if he doesn't they have to bring in a vet next year.

So, to your point, if they win 3 or 4 games this year - and I don't see that happening if ZW plays well - therefore, next year that vet has to make this a playoff contender.  

So I guess, next year they have to be a legit playoff contender (with Zach or a vet) or he should be on his way out.  I think that's fair.

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8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Agreed.

I think Zach has to show something this year and if he doesn't they have to bring in a vet next year.

So, to your point, if they win 3 or 4 games this year - and I don't see that happening if ZW plays well - therefore, next year that vet has to make this a playoff contender.  

So I guess, next year they have to be a legit playoff contender (with Zach or a vet) or he should be on his way out.  I think that's fair.

We're getting ahead of ourselves (lets see what 2022 brings before we truly pass judgement), but IF we are bad again in 22' and it's because of the QB underperforming again, I'd at least want to see a legitimate competition at QB going into 2023 between Z.W. and some legitimate competitor (veteran trade, or draft pick if we have to). 

I think that's a reasonable ask.

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

To put it simply:

1. I like most of his moves.

2. Now I want to see results.

This doesn't feel like a radical opinion.

This guy wanted to win, and he accomplished that by releasing a future hall of fame college and NFL coach and hiring RICH KOTITE.

image.png.96f4bb84b8e6a3a3dc79c19e5183d1ba.png

Yes, we agree. I want to see the results and not what COULD be the results if we "win" the offseason again.

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To put it simply:
1. I like most of his moves.
2. Now I want to see results.
This doesn't feel like a radical opinion.

The results fall squarely on Saleh. The talent is there, Saleh and his staff has to produce. JD, hired him. I believe JD gets another HC if Saleh crashes and burns. He won’t get a 3rd.
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On 9/1/2022 at 7:11 AM, peebag said:

He's got to hit on a QB sooner than later or he'll be a walking.

I wouldn't be surprised if the level of time and effort being spent by the Jets on scouting QBs at both the college and Pro levels is much higher than people here think.  JD knows what's up.  And, as much as he and the Jets try to appear confident and comfortable with ZW and the depth chart, they are constantly searching for the next guy.  That's how GMs are and how they have to be.  Teams must have plans B, C, and D under constant refinement if for no other reason than you could instantly lose a guy to a career-ending injury, a full-year/lengthy suspension (ex. Watson), or have something else happen.

Let's not confuse a Jets brass that is seemingly comfortable and expressing confidence in ZW, Flacco, White with one that isn't looking to upgrade all of them.  The QB position needs to be risk-managed constantly.  And, as we've seen recently, some high-level QBs DO end up moving around the league (ex. Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, etc).  It makes it much easier to attract a FA QB if the rest of the team looks ready so I think a contained focus on weapons and the OL help with that if the Jets need to go the FA route at some point.

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I really, really hope things come together this year, because there's no way that doofus Woody Johnson is going to be able to find a capable new GM.  

Douglas seems to be well-respected around the league.  He wins trades over other GM's (some of them pretty decent GM's, too), doesn't unwisely overspend, and the talent level overall appears to be quite a bit better than when he arrived.  So the idea that Woody is going to find a GM BETTER than Douglas is pretty laughable given his track record.

The W's just HAVE to show up this year.  We need Douglas to be "the guy" or else we're f**ked until the Johnson's die or sell the team.  

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2 hours ago, ASH1962 said:

It is plain to see, if they start winning some games, and soon, this question will no longer be valid, however, if they start 0-6 or 0-7 season pover by Oct 10 as usual (as I fully expect them to), unfortunately, this will be all we have to talk about. I only want to come here and gloat about my team kicking ass, but that is never able to happen. It always has to be negative because that is what they are.

I don't really see JD going anywhere IF the following is true...

1. The overall talent level and depth of the roster continues to improve (as it has recently)

2. If he hits on at least ONE of his hand-selected Head Coach or QB.  If one becomes a surefire keeper then he can take another shot at replacing the other.  If both are bad then JD is a dead man walking.  This is 100% his team, from bones to balls.  His staff, his players, his organization.

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A lot of posts are putting the emphais on the QB... and to a certain extent I agree.  But coaching matters..  this team was a mess last year.  This preseason how did the 1s look?  Not great...so lets see how this plays out.

For better or worse, this is his team and HC.  The talent level is better then its been in years because of his plan and its execution... NOW, its time to start wining, period. 

AS for more years, HIS team has to start winning or else. 

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On 9/1/2022 at 11:53 AM, David Harris said:

I'd give him a 10 year extension right now.

I don't care if Zach Wilson busts - a GM can't really control that - you make the best decision you can during acquisition. 

You want a GM that has a sound decision making process, is smart with the cap, and maximizes assets - check, check, check

 

Many are hedging waiting on results - totally fair.  I've seen enough to know this is the best GM in our history.

If at the end of the season his 2022 draft class looks legit (the opposite of this first draft), even if Zach flops I’d give him another two years. 

Unfortunately Woody is an impatient doofus and would likely clean house introducing Rebuild #36.

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It all depends on what Woody feels regarding his oft used expression "is the arrow pointing up or down."

And how many years does Woody feel he personally has left to enjoy any measurable success. Everything else being said here is overruled by that one salient fact.  He's 75 now and may feel that time is a more important factor than patience.

Some of you young guys fail to realize that in your replies regarding JD. Stuff like "as long as it takes" and "for the rest of his life" are just silly.

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17 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if the level of time and effort being spent by the Jets on scouting QBs at both the college and Pro levels is much higher than people here think.  JD knows what's up.  And, as much as he and the Jets try to appear confident and comfortable with ZW and the depth chart, they are constantly searching for the next guy.  That's how GMs are and how they have to be.  Teams must have plans B, C, and D under constant refinement if for no other reason than you could instantly lose a guy to a career-ending injury, a full-year/lengthy suspension (ex. Watson), or have something else happen.

Let's not confuse a Jets brass that is seemingly comfortable and expressing confidence in ZW, Flacco, White with one that isn't looking to upgrade all of them.  The QB position needs to be risk-managed constantly.  And, as we've seen recently, some high-level QBs DO end up moving around the league (ex. Russell Wilson, Tom Brady, etc).  It makes it much easier to attract a FA QB if the rest of the team looks ready so I think a contained focus on weapons and the OL help with that if the Jets need to go the FA route at some point.

They will regret not taking Pickett with one of those 1's and stashing him away for next year after ZW is reinjured for the season again.

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On 9/1/2022 at 1:33 PM, Jet9 said:

 

I guess I'm just over this can do no wrong attitude for a guy with 6 wins to his name if we're giving him the mulligan for year 1 as he didn't draft that group. Zach and Becton look like terrible picks. 

They were horrible picks.  I wanted Wirfs and Fields.  The NFL is set up for mediocrity by way of the salary cap and the order of the draft.  Everybody starts at 8-8 under the old 16 game season.  Coaching and QB's tip the scales one direction or another.  If we do not have 8 or more wins this year, you have to replace the HC or the QB or both.

image.png.18880816e6f7355d5bb3b025d3c4661e.png

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You guys - LOL. JD isn't perfect but he is certainly the best GM we have had for quite a while. 

1. 1st draft was BAD, but last 2 have been much better

2. Have gone from a bad roster with no depth to an average roster with some very good depth; went from worst OL, WR, TE, and CB to an average OL, and above average TE and CBs and with a very promising WR. The fact that this all happened with a bad first draft is pretty impressive.

3. The best GMs in the league miss on QBs all of the time; the best GMs miss on many picks throughout the draft; 1sts are often hit or miss and any player that makes the team 4th round down is pretty good.

4. His trades and UDFA's have been great.

5. I get firing Gase, Idzik, Mac, Bowles, etc., but if you fire JD because the jets don't make the playoffs this year - who in their right mind will want to come here?

We finally have a FO that appears to be good and best appears to learn from the their mistakes and people want to dump him if a ZW doesn't pan out (how many 1st round QBs don't pan out?). We want to dump him because a 1st time HC didn't win with a truly terrible team? I just don't get it. Does anybody really think we are going to replace him with someone who never has a whiff or bad draft (especially first one with no combine), whiffs on QB, whiffs HC? For those who said it was okay to whiff because Newsome had already brought in a SB I ask you this: Newsome had already been in that position for a while (and with team even longer) when he whiffed - so you think he should be less likely to whiff.

The team APPEARS to be going in the right direction talent wise; you don't fire him before his contract is over unless that growth stalls or reverse.

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