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Jets must see big Zach Wilson picture and start Joe Flacco Week 1


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5 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

I think saleh is going to choose to play Zach as long as he’s physically healed.  And i don’t think the opponent matters much here.  The OL is not ready for prime time and isn’t opening up the running game yet.  So this puts even more onus on wilson to deliver immediately.  And since he still doesn’t understand that playing hero ball will lose, that’s what we’re going to see on Sunday.  The biggest factor in that game if wilson plays especially, is the offensive game plan.  They need to figure out how to generate first downs, and use that speed.  Short passes to the TEs and RBs.  Quick outs to wilson and moore.  Empirically, Wilson’s pure skill sets are designed for this, he has a quick release and throws a mean pass.  They just can’t start running on first for no gain, then having 3rd and long every time where wilson is running around like the same headless chicken that Sanchez/geno/darnold were.  They need to move the chains wisely b/c you can’t win in the nfl if your TOP sucks.  Last year the jets were 30th in TOP and the ravens were 2nd in the nfl.  The jets need to flip that, and they need a good plan.

Gonna a warm humid day. If the Jets' offense is 3 and out all day, their defense is gonna get very tired and worn out chasing Lamar Jackson all day. If the offense is 2 runs up the gut for almost nothing followed by a 3rd and 8 dumpoff attempt vs. a dime defense with Ravens' defensive front knowing it's a pass, it will be a long day. 

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31 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Nor should they.  But of course, that's not really the issue here.

The issue is people who demand he start claiming he's 100% ready no question, and then will do the usual 180 making excuses if he plays poorly.

I think evaluation is a constantly active process, ongoing from the second we start looking at these guys pre-draft, right up the point they retire from the game.

I don't think evaluation has specific valid points or stop points where it is or should be crystalized or is somehow "more right" than some other stop point. 

A player is what he is as of now.  Tomorrow, we'll factor what he did today into that ongoing evaluation.

We say he has played poorly so far ( a demonstrable fact), that he was in fact the worst QB in the NFL last year (another fact), that he appears to be injury prone (two injuries in two years and counting), and that the odds he will turn it all around and be a FQB going forward is low (opinion, backed by the odds).

Yet most of us still advocate that he should start, and most of us say all year.  When he is ready.  Not just because he got to 4 weeks since the injury/surgery.  

Ok, I'll let you speak for that side's argument.

Zach Wilson will be the #1 QB of this team thru the end of 2022 at minimum.  More likely the end of 2023 at least.  #2 picks generally get three years.

I will refer you back to my comments on evaluation above as to what I'd say or think. 

A great game would be good, a bad game would not.  

Which do you think is more likely?  For a player who still hasn't taken a snap in four weeks time, played in basically no preseason games, and is coming back off his 2nd knee injury to the same knee against a generally pretty good Defense?

I think sitting week 1 is best for him, and for us.  

 

I think that’s fair. I misinterpreted your comments.

Zach played poorly last year. But I’m bullish on his talent (I’m still on the bandwagon). I may be setting myself up for disappointment, but I’m expecting to play well early.

If he’s healthy. Let’s role. I agree that nobody should be making excuses if he gets off to a bad start.

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2 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

Disagree. If he can play, he needs to play. We cannot be babying our #2 pick at this point. If he plays and stinks, then so be it. I don't want to hear about excuses this year

You don't take a guy 2nd in the draft and then think you can wait forever for him to be a real player. Doesn't work that way in year 2 especially. 

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3 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

Thats the definition of being cautious and not rushing him.

They would be saving him for what exactly? When would he play? The job is being an NFL QB. He was taken 2nd in the draft. It's sink or swim. Caution? Every down 300 lb. beasts who run like gazelles and can bench press Hondas are looking to drive him into the FieldTurf. If Wilson wants to be cautious, he can go be a baggage handler for Daddy at JetBlue(probably like a good chunk of the chooches he played against and with at BYU). It's past time to put up or go away. 

If the Jets' CS has doubts about his ability, well then, that's something very different. 

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7 hours ago, Warfish said:

So to be clear, all of you in disagreement with the article, the limited amount of practice Zach will get prior to week 1 will NOT be an excuse if he plays poorly then?

Personally, I probably don’t start him, even if he was 100% healthy today. Because I’d want him to get more practice in given how little he’s had this camp/preseason. Him playing, but playing poorly, serves no one IMO.

The fact that he has practiced all offseason doesn't make up for going through practice reps that for the 1st game is likely 2+ weeks with a real game plan. Offseason and through the preseason games is not a game plan, but what they call no game planning and vanilla O's/D's which is a nice way of calling it a glorified version of school yard football. If he starts practicing from Wed. to the game this weekend he would have only have had a few practices with the true Raven's game plan that any QB gets 2+ weeks for with the 1st regular season game.  So, with that, he would be best suited to play his 1st game against the Browns and start with the game plan for that as soon as Sunday is over so the team can use some input from the Browns game this weekend and give Zack a full 7 days with that pan and the practices with it. That would be the best that can be done to give him and the team the best chance to win that game.

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1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

The injury he is coming back from was a result of his refusal/inability to learn.  He was still trying to play hero ball in a *PRESEASON* game and got himself tweaked up.

Now, he needs to cool his heels and watch until and IF that lesson ever makes it through his thick skull

He plays a milf better than any QB in the league.  Now he needs to learn how to handle a football in a professional game.

I dont see ANYTHING other than him being censured to the bench for a few weeks as a strong enough attention-getter to perhaps, MAYBE see him gain some professional wisdom 

Hero ball is the new bullsh*t reason why Zach sucks.  I never heard of "hero ball" until last year.

Brett Farve made a career out of "hero ball".  If Zach is like Brett Farve, I'd love me some "hero ball"!

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2 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

True that one game is just one game.

But I think the NFL has changed.  I don't think it takes 3+ years to evaluate a QB any more.

I think you can have a pretty good idea within the 1st year and in some cases even right away.

Justin Herbert was literally notified during pre-game warmups vs KC that Tyrod Taylor had some weird injection go wrong with his lung.

Herbert went in unphased and proceeded to ball out vs the Chiefs.  While that was obviously just one game, it proved to be a sign of things to come.

Basically Herbert looked like he belonged from the jump.

Wilson hasn't ever looked comfortable and/or in command to me.

Streveler looked in command. He got cut. OK, practice squad, but …. 

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19 minutes ago, Bugg said:

You don't take a guy 2nd in the draft and then think you can wait forever for him to be a real player. Doesn't work that way in year 2 especially. 

Does waiting one week to get him some reps and time on the post-surgery knee after a 4-week layoff due to injury count as "waiting forever"?

 

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15 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

Hero ball is the new bullsh*t reason why Zach sucks.  I never heard of "hero ball" until last year.

Brett Farve made a career out of "hero ball".  If Zach is like Brett Farve, I'd love me some "hero ball"!

You are missing one important word here.  "TRYING".   Favre could and did play hero ball in the professional ranks.  Wilson has been *TRYING" to play hero ball. 

Ya dig ?

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4 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

You are missing one important word here.  "TRYING".   Favre could and did play hero ball in the professional ranks.  Wilson has been *TRYING" to play hero ball. 

Ya dig ?

Zach has played hero ball and succeeded.  Getting outside the pocket and making things happen is his game.

His problem was doing the mondaine things.  Making reads within the timing of the play and getting the ball out on time. 

Btw, he was much improved on that in the second half of the year last season.  Let's see if that continues.

"Hero ball", the made up bullsh*t term, is not his problem.

Ya dig?

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34 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

You are missing one important word here.  "TRYING".   Favre could and did play hero ball in the professional ranks.  Wilson has been *TRYING" to play hero ball. 

Ya dig ?

Every Elite NFL QB plays hero ball or they don't sniff a championship.  In todays NFL with the salary cap impications of having an elite QB you can no longer field the 85 Bears D.  You need a QB who can break down teams with game killing big plays or you're not getting out of the first round of the playoffs.  

The Rams just traded a game manager for a gun slinger and won the SB.   

Wilson was severely handcuffed by Lefleur and it didn't help him.  He's married to a system that expossed Jimmy G, a great game manager with a great team around him and a top NFL HC.  Zach was drafted because he can make the big throws.  

Favre didn't start a game as a rookie and he went to a team with a very good Offensive HC  a great WR and a very good TE and running game.   

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3 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Every Elite NFL QB plays hero ball or they don't sniff a championship.  In todays NFL with the salary cap impications of having an elite QB you can no longer field the 85 Bears D.  You need a QB who can break down teams with game killing big plays or you're not getting out of the first round of the playoffs.  

The Rams just traded a game manager for a gun slinger and won the SB.   

Wilson was several handcuffed by Lefleur and it didn't help him.  He's married to a system that expossed Jimmy G, a great game manager with a great team around him and a top NFL HC.  Zach was drafted because he can make the big throws.  

That's right Biggs!  "Hero Ball" used to be called "Gunslinger".  And everyone wanted one.

Until Zach, of course.  Now it's "hero ball" and the reason Zach sucks.  

You just can't make this sh*t up!

 

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2 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

That's right Biggs!  "Hero Ball" used to be called "Gunslinger".  And everyone wanted one.

Until Zach, of course.  Now it's "hero ball" and the reason Zach sucks.  

You just can't make this sh*t up!

 

It's absurd.  The NFL rules today has been retooled around the big downfield play.  All the great QB's were gunslingers.  Today more than ever you need one.  

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20 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

Zach has played hero ball and succeeded.  Getting outside the pocket and making things happen is his game.

His problem was doing the mondaine things.  Making reads within the timing of the play and getting the ball out on time. 

Btw, he was much improved on that in the second half of the year last season.  Let's see if that continues.

"Hero ball", the made up bullsh*t term, is not his problem.

Ya dig?

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1 hour ago, GandWFan said:

That's right Biggs!  "Hero Ball" used to be called "Gunslinger".  And everyone wanted one.

Until Zach, of course.  Now it's "hero ball" and the reason Zach sucks.  

You just can't make this sh*t up!

Favre was a Gunslinger.

But so was Ryan Fitzpatrick.

It's never been all or nothing, Gunslinger, Hero Ball, whatever you want to call it.

The reason Zach sucked (not sucks, we don't know what he'll be in 2022 yet) is as follows:

1. In a league where the good QB's are completing 67% or more of their passes, Zach completed 55.6%.  Worst in the NFL.

2. In a league where the good QB's have a 3:1 TD:INT ratio, or at worst a 2:1 ratio, Zach had 9 TD's and 11 INT's.  Underwater.

3. In a league where the good QB's have a 7.0+ YPA, Zach was down at 6.1 YPA.  Good for 31st in the NFL.

How one can look at a QB who was effectively dead last in almost every metric and not understand why there is doubt about that player, I honestly do not understand.  Doubt =/= A Final Determination.

As I said to my friend GreenFish, Evaluation is a process, not a destination, it starts before the player is even drafted, and is ongoing pretty much till they retire.  As new info comes in, evaluations will change to reflect that.  So far, Zach has been very poor.  If he kills it in 2022, the evaluation of him will change.  That is up to Zach. 

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35 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

Zach has played hero ball and succeeded.  Getting outside the pocket and making things happen is his game.

His problem was doing the mondaine things.  Making reads within the timing of the play and getting the ball out on time. 

Btw, he was much improved on that in the second half of the year last season.  Let's see if that continues.

"Hero ball", the made up bullsh*t term, is not his problem.

Ya dig?

Your idea of succeeding is a lot different than mine.  Wilson was awful last season.  

You also did a good job of contradicting yourself and supporting my point.

As you wrote above: "His problem was doing the mondaine things.  Making reads within the timing of the play and getting the ball out on time."

No kidding ?!?!?!

There is nothing mundane about making the correct read and placing the ball on time.  If a QB cant execute the "mundane" as you describe it, and can only make an occasional circus play, IE HERO BALL, your QB is not going to win many games.

YA DIG ???????????

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36 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Every Elite NFL QB plays hero ball or they don't sniff a championship.  

You mean your QB has to be able to make great plays when it counts ALONG WITH also VERY MUCH being able to play with consistency in general ???  Before your QB will put himself and his team in a position in the post season to require that he make a great play when needed, that QB also has to have executed the MUNDANE with consistency from drive to drive, quarter to quarter, half to half and game to game all season long.

Wilson has not put together two games in a row with impressive, consistent play much less a season. We had a highlight of him directing a WR on a broke coverage to complete a long pass play.

That highlight is going to vault him into the HOF right behind Mike White.

Wilson has not been impressive nor has he shown the stuff that would suggest he is going to work out as a professional QB.  Quite the contrary.

And that is that until and if he ever proves otherwise, and I don't expect we will see that.

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Wilson will only play if he practices wed/thurs/fri/sat 
Missing 3 weeks after practicing for MONTHS then practicing again 4 days will not take Wilson from good to bad 
Wilson could suck and it still wouldn’t mean he sucks, or maybe it does we won’t know week 1 no matter how he plays
its a long evaluation 
if Wilson is rusty, the only way to remove the rust is to play in real games. The sooner he does that the sooner we can learn about the player 
again, Joe burrow week 2 last year against the same ravens team- did the bengals rush him back? Did he suck last year? 




I agree. Josh Allen on opening day in 2019 threw 2 picks and fumbled two times and he ended up making the playoffs. The next year they got Diggs and now he a stud.


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1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

You are missing one important word here.  "TRYING".   Favre could and did play hero ball in the professional ranks.  Wilson has been *TRYING" to play hero ball. 

Ya dig ?

Yeah and I'm sure Favre was flawless in year 1 and never made any mistakes playing "hero ball" . 

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26 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Your idea of succeeding is a lot different than mine.  Wilson was awful last season.  

You also did a good job of contradicting yourself and supporting my point.

As you wrote above: "His problem was doing the mondaine things.  Making reads within the timing of the play and getting the ball out on time."

No kidding ?!?!?!

There is nothing mundane about making the correct read and placing the ball on time.  If a QB cant execute the "mundane" as you describe it, and can only make an occasional circus play, IE HERO BALL, your QB is not going to win many games.

YA DIG ???????????

Hero Ball : making off schedule plays.

Mondane play: operating efficiently within the offense.

Your hypothesis: Zach sucks because he tries to play hero ball.

My contention: that is bullsh*t.  He can and has made off schedule plays.

My hypothesis: Zach was bad last year for multiple reasons.  Bad online play, no weapons.  But as far as QB play, the game was too fast for him and he could not execute the offense as designed, especially early in the year.  He got better as the year progressed.

Will he be a fqb?  Don't know.  Maybe. Needs more experience.  We will know more by seasons end.

Is hero ball his problem? Absolutely not.

YA DIG ¿¿¿???¿¿¿???

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41 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Favre was a Gunslinger.

But so was Ryan Fitzpatrick.

It's never been all or nothing, Gunslinger, Hero Ball, whatever you want to call it.

The reason Zach sucked (not sucks, we don't know what he'll be in 2022 yet) is as follows:

1. In a league where the good QB's are completing 67% or more of their passes, Zach completed 55.6%.  Worst in the NFL.

2. In a league where the good QB's have a 3:1 TD:INT ratio, or at worst a 2:1 ratio, Zach had 9 TD's and 11 INT's.  Underwater.

3. In a league where the good QB's have a 7.0+ YPA, Zach was down at 6.1 YPA.  Good for 31st in the NFL.

How one can look at a QB who was effectively dead last in almost every metric and not understand why their is doubt about that player, I honestly do not understand.  Doubt =/= A Final Determination.

As I said to my friend GreenFish, Evaluation is a process, not a destination, it starts before the player is even drafted, and is ongoing pretty much till they retire.  As new info comes in, evaluations will change to reflect that.  So far, Zach has been very poor.  If he kills it in 2022, the evaluation of him will change.  That is up to Zach. 

Stats are effects not causes. 

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12 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Yeah and I'm sure Favre was flawless in year 1 and never made any mistakes playing "hero ball" . 

Watch Favre's first full starting season with GB and then watch Wilson's rookie season. 

Unless you are blind or compelled to defend your book here to the exclusion of good sense, you'll come away with the conclusion that Favre had something special and Wilson will most likely flop as a pro.  This regardless of any wild mistakes Favre made or any flash plays Wilson made.

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1 minute ago, THE BARON said:

Watch Favre's first full starting season with GB and then watch Wilson's rookie season. 

Unless you are blind or compelled to defend your book here to the exclusion of good sense, you'll come away with the conclusion that Favre had something special and Wilson will most likely flop as a pro.  This regardless of any wild mistakes Favre made or any flash plays Wilson made.

Compare the teams and systems that Favre played in vs what Wilson had last season. But I'm sure that doesn't matter as you clearly have your mind made up based on your statements . 

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7 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Stats are effects not causes. 

Stats are the factual, objective output of all the variables in place.  

If you'd like to discuss the causes, we can certainly do that, but I'm going to presume we'll disagree up front.  

 

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11 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

Will he be a fqb?  Don't know.  Maybe. Needs more experience.  We will know more by seasons end.

Yes. but early indications have not been positive. Not just the awful stats, but the comprehensive eye test.

11 minutes ago, GandWFan said:

Is hero ball his problem? Absolutely not.

YA DIG ¿¿¿???¿¿¿???

If all your QB can do is the pull off the occasional schoolyard play embedded within a game-load of inconsistent and ineffective play, it is a big problem and has been a big problem.

Heck sake, he didn't even put together more than a few quality drives the entire season.

I want him to work out, but I don't see it happening.

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This is a stupid f'ing article. I agree with him that Wilson shouldn't take the field if his knee isn't healthy. The stupid thing is he goes on to assume that a) his knee isn't fully healed and b) he specifically needs one more week. How arrogant is this man to think he can diagnose a patient he's never seen especially when he's a journalist and not a doctor? Not only does he diagnose the patient but he pretends to know the precise correct remaining recovery time. Genius!

WTF

 

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4 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Compare the teams and systems that Favre played in vs what Wilson had last season. But I'm sure that doesn't matter as you clearly have your mind made up based on your statements . 

Sounds like you have as well. 

Fans of poor performing QB's generally blame everyone else on the team for the QB's failures.

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2 hours ago, Bugg said:

Gonna a warm humid day. If the Jets' offense is 3 and out all day, their defense is gonna get very tired and worn out chasing Lamar Jackson all day. If the offense is 2 runs up the gut for almost nothing followed by a 3rd and 8 dumpoff attempt vs. a dime defense with Ravens' defensive front knowing it's a pass, it will be a long day. 

thats what I been tryin to say...everyone knows jets gonna try to do the run , run, pass (safe ball) and if they do it could be a long day

 

so call up Chan Gailey and do the unexpected 3/4/5 WR sets game and a lot of QB runs and play by seat of your pants.

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