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Generational Trevor?


Shelbyblue

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29 minutes ago, peebag said:

I'd trade Zach and Sauce for Trevor in a heart beat.

this is an outrageous statement 

yet... how many years can we really expect out of Zach's knees?  He already showed up with 2 labrum repairs

Sauce is amazing a CB1 all the way. Instant star. 

but Zach is basically worthless. 

Trevor is flawed but he's going to be a QB1 for a decade plus. 

this is one of those statements that looks insane at the time but give it a few years it will be obvious 

 

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25 minutes ago, bitonti said:

but Zach is basically worthless. 

Trevor is flawed but he's going to be a QB1 for a decade plus. 

this is one of those statements that looks insane at the time but give it a few years it will be obvious 

Well, we'll just have to keep it for posterity then, won't we.

I don't like either player tbqh, and I don't see the massive difference between them that you do, but who knows. 

You could always guess right I suppose.

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The whole "generational talent" label was just about selling him as the #1 pick. 

I was never super high on Lawrence but generally I don't fall in love with these QBs from college powerhouses because they win a lot and have great college highlight reels. For every Watson there's more than a handful of guys like Tajh Boyd, Greg McElroy, Mark Sanchez, Sam Darnold, Tim Tebow, Dwayne Haskins. It's easy to look great with solid coaching and a team of NFL starters playing against Div 1 turds half the season where you can chuck it up and land a big pass or hand it off for a fifteen yard run.

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11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Well, we'll just have to keep it for posterity then, won't we.

I don't like either player tbqh, and I don't see the massive difference between them that you do, but who knows. 

You could always guess right I suppose.

It's not a guess. one player has the physical attributes required for the NFL and the other doesn't. 

how much mileage does Zach Wilson really have in him? he's getting injured against air 

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7 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

The whole "generational talent" label was just about selling him as the #1 pick. 

I was never super high on Lawrence but generally I don't fall in love with these QBs from college powerhouses because they win a lot and have great college highlight reels. For every Watson there's more than a handful of guys like Tajh Boyd, Greg McElroy, Mark Sanchez, Sam Darnold, Tim Tebow, Dwayne Haskins. It's easy to look great with solid coaching and a team of NFL starters playing against Div 1 turds half the season where you can chuck it up and land a big pass or hand it off for a fifteen yard run.

There's a LOT I don't know about this topic, but what I see is that the big-armed guys - often even accuracy-challenged - seem to be turning out to be the best NFL QBs.  Allen, Mahomes, Herbert are the recent examples.  The 'smart' guys (Jones), the small but fast guys (Murray) don't seem to be turning out as well.  

There are always outliers, but if I was picking next year, I would definitely be leaning Stroud over Young.

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20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Oh, it's absolutely a guess.  

I don't necessarily disagree, but forgive me if I don't anoint you the next Nostradamus, lol.

A friend of mine used to referee in the Big East, back when that was a thing

he had a phrase "sunday players" his way of saying that a guy was going to be a pro 

Like that dude is going to play on Sunday. 

Zach Wilson has a Sunday arm but he has a Saturday body 

Trevor is a Sunday Player all the way 

 

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42 minutes ago, bitonti said:

A friend of mine used to referee in the Big East, back when that was a thing

he had a phrase "sunday players" his way of saying that a guy was going to be a pro 

Like that dude is going to play on Sunday. 

Zach Wilson has a Sunday arm but he has a Saturday body 

Trevor is a Sunday Player all the way 

 

Im not saying Wilson is any good, but you know the knock on Phil Simms early on his career? 

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1 hour ago, nycdan said:

There's a LOT I don't know about this topic, but what I see is that the big-armed guys - often even accuracy-challenged - seem to be turning out to be the best NFL QBs.  Allen, Mahomes, Herbert are the recent examples.  The 'smart' guys (Jones), the small but fast guys (Murray) don't seem to be turning out as well.  

There are always outliers, but if I was picking next year, I would definitely be leaning Stroud over Young.

sh*t don’t speak too soon because with this team as we all know: you never know 

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2 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Im not saying Wilson is any good, but you know the knock on Phil Simms early on his career? 

yes Phil Simms overcame alot and he's a good comp to Zach Wilson to be honest 

he had 1 great rookie year then 4 years of major injuries 

my question do the Jets pick up a 5th year option if Zach's injuries continue? It feels like the league has less patience for this type of story - and unlike Phil Simms, Zach didn't have a winning record when he was healthy 

I'll give you another comp for Zach - oft injured, from a mid major - how about Chad Pennington? 

Zach obviously has a great arm and Chad had a noodle but neither one can appear to take a hit 

 

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7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Could've stopped after your first sentence (though I'm the wrong person to dish out that criticism). 

My point is more that the team gets vilified for failing to develop guys who'd have been busts anyway. That's why I brought up others like Leinart. People still throw out the idea that an airhead like Sanchez was ever going to live up to his draft slot. He was effectively done in the NFL by age 30, cut by a Denver team that only had the prior season's 7th round backup + the current year's 1st round bust with a borderline Hackenberg-like career (i.e. no starter). But because his stats got to get temporarily graded on a curve by Chip Kelly calling plays from the sideline so Sanchez wouldn't have to - badly losing TOP battles & exhausting his own defense in the process - people were all too happy to put all his career woes on the Jets. Your own take on him up top is far more accurate. 

They need to pick better. Maybe there's a little bad luck involved - i.e. they are drafting QBs when the year comes up, and sometimes there's no one good to draft like 2013 or (so far) 2020. Other times they make their own bed, passing on the opportunity to take a safety and a shot at next year's lottery (though the rumor was they'd have taken a QB if only Trubisky slid a little, but not for the two probowl QBs sitting there when we were on the clock). 

It's fair to criticize drafting poorly. They get a little bit too much blame for failing to develop a hard position to predict. HOF players & FO personnel whiff on that all the time, too. But that's of little consequence when we wrongly guess heads or tails 10x in a row. 

I think the whole Jets QB search failures are fascinating because there's so many twists and turns.  

Drafting Pennington, having success only to have injuries derail his career is a morbidly fascinating outlook as well, because by all accounts they hit on the franchise guy, but he just couldn't stay healthy.  His arm was limited, but he was a perfect fit for where offenses were starting to go, which included spreading the ball around and getting slot guys in space on short throws.  I'm not saying we dethrone the Pats or anything, but that should have been a hit, but went sideways.  

The Favre thing was tragic as well, because going into KC, we look like a SB team.  He injures his shoulder, doesn't tell anyone, and that whole season tanks afterwards.  

One of the biggest what if's not routinely mentioned in the draft for the Jets is Sam Bradford.  He came off arguably the greatest college QB season of all time, and a lock to go No. 1, and he returns to school.  He busted his shoulder the next year and still goes No. 1.  If Bradford stays in that draft, very likely than Stafford drops to the Jets or is there when they trade up.  Instead, Bradford stays, moves Stafford up to the Lions, and we have Sanchez as the prize.   

Up until then, I thought the Jets played it smart.  They technically hit on what should have been a franchise guy, he got injured.  They took a shot on the disgruntled veteran, but he got injured.  They made a ridiculous trade (The Jets completely ripped off the Browns on that trade up) to get a franchise guy.  They even surrounded him with talent to insulate his adjustment to the NFL.  

Unfortunately, the initial success of the Rex era meant he had too much influence on the team, and we leaned heavily towards investing in the defense.  The 2012 draft was the big change in the era, because they went Coples in the first, even though the offense badly needed help.  This kinda starts the fault in our stars type moments that mismatch needs vs. availabilities as well.  They really needed WR help, in a year where Justin Blackmon and Kendall Wright headlined the class (Eventually, Sanu/TY Hilton/Jeffery were good).   They tried their luck with Stephen Hill. 

I know it's a controversial take, I didn't think Idzik's plan was flawed.  He drafted Milliner, who by all accounts was a stud in college, just couldn't stay healthy.  He drafted Sheldon, who was initially dominant and then went on the Wilkerson path.  They waited out the QB that dropped from possible No. 1 pick in Geno.  They drafted a few OL afterwards, that didn't hit.  The big issue was that we needed a QB in a year the QB just wasn't there, just like we needed a WR in the year a WR just wasn't there.

Which brings us to the disaster that is the 2014 draft.  I don't care what anyone says, that stupid Calvin Pryor pick was all Rex Ryan.  In the best WR class in memory, they picked a safety who hit hard, when they badly needed offensive players.  Why they didn't pick Cooks instead of Pryor is just mindboggling.  Then, they doubled down picking a TE (Amaro), when 3 of the next 4 WRs were Davante Adams, Allen Robinson, and Jarvis Landry.  We did end up picking 3 WRs in that draft, (Saunders, Evans, and Enunwa - but he was PS stashed for most of the year).  In theory, the plan with Idzik was to surround Geno with WRs, and interior OL, which is sound in theory.  Unfortunately, they completely botched up the execution, and I think the blame falls squarely on Rex for that one.  

I think in that little stretch, we had the right plan but our needs didn't match up with availability, and Rex screwed the one chance we had.  

I won't even get into McCagnan, that guy was such a failure.  

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2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

yes Phil Simms overcame alot and he's a good comp to Zach Wilson to be honest 

he had 1 great rookie year then 4 years of major injuries 

my question do the Jets pick up a 5th year option if Zach's injuries continue? It feels like the league has less patience for this type of story - and unlike Phil Simms, Zach didn't have a winning record when he was healthy 

I'll give you another comp for Zach - oft injured, from a mid major - how about Chad Pennington? 

Zach obviously has a great arm and Chad had a noodle but neither one can appear to take a hit 

 

I’ll tell you what.  Zach has this season to prove he’s worth their time.  B/c if he sucks and the jets have a top 5 pick they will be able to get another good qb prospect and douglas would be a fool not to take one while he’s building the roster up.

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15 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

I’ll tell you what.  Zach has this season to prove he’s worth their time.  B/c if he sucks and the jets have a top 5 pick they will be able to get another good qb prospect and douglas would be a fool not to take one while he’s building the roster up.

i wish that was the case 

Zach probably has until year 4 (two more years) before they bring in any real competition 

and JD would probably have to be fired first 

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This durability issue with Zach is something I was thinking about earlier today.

Assuming he comes back week 4, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say he doesn’t start more than 7 games this year, and will never start 10 in any other.

I’m obviously spitballing here, but I just don’t see this kid holding up, neither physically nor talent wise this year and beyond.

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17 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Not fans. Most GMs (wrongly) think the cap constraints and cost of a QBs second contract requires playing your rookie first round QB from day 1, or at least as early in their rookie season as possible. So few QBs drafted in the first round do not start from game 1 of their rookie season. I think about 60 QBs were drafted in the first round since 2000. How many pretty much sat out their entire first year? Pennington, Mahomes, Aaron Rogers, Jordan Love.... anyone else? Heck even Christian Ponder, JP Loseman and Patrick Ramsey played a lot in their first year. Josh Rosen was made starter in week 3 (when he clearly was not ready). Brandon Weeden was made starter in Cleveland from day 1. 

I'm not sure of the exact number but it pretty much seem like 90% of the first round QBs are either named starter from day 1 or given the job after the season starts. And based on what we've all seen, it is pretty clear they are not given the job because they are ready. 

I agree 100% with this post and the ideas behind it. 

How anyone could think that Sam Darnold should have started year one when he was the youngest QB in NFL history, was clearly a project, questionable coaching at best and had a poor OL is beyond me. 

Putting in a player before they are ready at the most difficult position  in team sports is just asinine IMO… 

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12 hours ago, bitonti said:

yes Phil Simms overcame alot and he's a good comp to Zach Wilson to be honest 

he had 1 great rookie year then 4 years of major injuries 

my question do the Jets pick up a 5th year option if Zach's injuries continue? It feels like the league has less patience for this type of story - and unlike Phil Simms, Zach didn't have a winning record when he was healthy 

I'll give you another comp for Zach - oft injured, from a mid major - how about Chad Pennington? 

Zach obviously has a great arm and Chad had a noodle but neither one can appear to take a hit 

 

Personally, I don't think the 5th year option is a concern right now. I think the bigger question the Jets need to ask is do they see enough in him this year to not go out and get a big free agent or trade for a QB who they plan to let have the starting job next year, vs. bringing in a somewhat competent backup next year. The Jets need to see him for at least 10-12 games to see if he is starting to get it or not. The knee injury this year is less of a concern to me than the injuries last year. Most knee injuries these days are non contact injuries, far more durable and physical specimens than Wilson have had worse non contact knee injuries than Wilson. he has a plus arm and some mobility, can he stay healthy for 16 games and can he be more productive than his mistakes are the questions that the Jets need to see

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3 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Should have stuck with Minshew lol.

Jesus what a brutal two games. 

It's funny but Minshew was 100x better as a rookie and  they couldnt wait to get rid of him after he swept the fanbase by storm.  And at this point considering it's year 2, Bortles was better than TL, 

 

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On 9/14/2022 at 5:37 PM, bitonti said:

A friend of mine used to referee in the Big East, back when that was a thing

he had a phrase "sunday players" his way of saying that a guy was going to be a pro 

Like that dude is going to play on Sunday. 

Zach Wilson has a Sunday arm but he has a Saturday body 

Trevor is a Sunday Player all the way 

 

That’s cool saying, makes sense. But the initial discussion was about Trevor being generational. Being generational and being available on Sunday are two very different things. 

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