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Saleh's press conference - Sounds like Flacco does have a shot to be the qb this year


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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

No but the posts around here read very similar:  Hope built on zero positive evidence.  

Yeah, I mean we are hopeful in spite of a bad rookie year, overall. 

and maybe history will repeat itself. But I also think that you guys have jumped ship on Wilson a tad bit early. He hasn't even played a full NFL season worth of games and he's coming from a small school - so there is reason to think that the game can still slow down for him. 

I'll have hope until I see him fail this year while he accumulates over 25(ish) starts. 

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4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It's stuff like this that you're setting up for an argument later that will simply be irrelevant.  If Zach's not on a 5100 yard pace then he's no good.  It's silly.

If Zach is not producing/reaching certain basic metrics for QB play, yes, I will be critical of his lack of production/performance.

5,100 yards/season is very much not one of those metrics, as I think you well know.

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Zach should keep this team competitive, week in and week out..and that should be fully expected.

Zach should produce in a way that would give observers faith that he is a forthcoming franchise QB. 

Not a game manager or a 37 year old has-been. 

And he needs to do it now, or as close to now as possible.  Not "some day, over the rainbow". 

I'm sorry, but my patience for him is simply not the same as yours.  Same as it wasn't the same when it was Darnold in this spot, and these same debates occurred.

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 Zach needs to be Zach not Flacco.

Zach needs to outperform/outproduce Flacco, or Zach should not IMO be starting.

4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

 The QB should ultimately be held accountable to wins and losses.

My standards are even lower, a QB should be accountable for their own level of play.  Wins and losses are team stats.

 

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5 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Sure.  But, it's not nothing that the two best games by a Jets QB in the last two seasons both weren't games played by Zach Wilson.

It's not nothing, but also not necessarily something. 

Last year, I would argue that Wilson had 2 of the 3 best starts of any Jets QB and we haven't seem him start a real game this year yet. 

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

All that really matters to me is that Zach Wilson isn't auto-guaranteed year 3 unless he balls out or at least plays like a top 20 ish QB. 

If he plays like ass whenever he appears this season, its time to move on.  No 3rd season like Darnold was given.  

Nothing like a good ol fashion QB Competition at training camp. That always ends up well.

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Interesting to see 11 pages of like 8 people making the same points over and over and twisting themselves into knots to make their case and hearing what they want to hear from Saleh 

Here are the facts:

1. No one here knows whether Zach will be good or will be bad. 

2. He was bad last year.

3. He played with limited weapons last year and even LaFleur stated that he did not put the offense in a position to succeed last year for the first 5 games.

4. The weapons this year are light years ahead of last years. Moore and Michael Carter are in year 2, GW looks like a future All pro, we are better at TE (even if we have not seen it yet) and Hall will be a great RB

5. Flacco played much better in part because our OL was much better. And Mitchell could be an amazing find at tackle. He faced some of the toughest pass rushers in the NFL and was decent. Even the strip sack he did an OK job after getting beat. Many QBs step up a little and that never happens

6. Wilson was voted as a Captain by the team. They are behind him. Unlike many teams our Jets are really mostly young players that are all in this together. If this was a very veteran team like we were under Bowles Wilson starting over Flacco might be a bigger issue

7. Garrett Wilson looked like the best player on the field yesterday, outside a killer drop. 

8. Zach's injury was NOT about the meniscus it was about the bone bruise. Chou said on Sirius a bone bruise (which is actually a fracture) is a 4 week minimum injury. The Jets need to stop trying to set positive expectations

9. From the interview last week it was clear Zach was not medically cleared.

So we will just need to see what Zach does. He will make mistakes and not be perfect but he is the Jets QB. Hopefully he is the guy, but no one knows at this point and sitting him certainly does not get you there.

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10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Remember when Joe Flacco played well in 2020, and fans were excited to see Sam Darnold return "with these weapons"?  Then Darnold proceeded to do Darnold things?

Yeah, I imagine it'll be a similar experience as that when Wilson returns.

How many wins did Flacco accumulate when he "played well" in 2020?

Joe Flacco is an old, veteran QB that can make things looks smoothly but will rarely give you a chance to win.  He'll look nice, take check downs, seemingly play smart - but at some point you have to win games - and requiring miracles to do so isn't the answer.

With all of that said - what the F does Sam Darnold have to do with Zach Wilson?

What was the talent we were talking about in 2020 - I can't recall ever thinking the Jets had any reasonable semblance of talent for Darnold.

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2 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Nothing like a good ol fashion QB Competition at training camp. That always ends up well.

As opposed to the whole "handing the undeserved QB the job without a plan B?"  How has that worked for us?

And who says there will be a competition next year?  Say the Jets bring in a quality veteran at or near the level of someone like Aaron Rodgers?  Wilson ain't winning that job.  

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3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

All that really matters to me is that Zach Wilson isn't auto-guaranteed year 3 unless he balls out or at least plays like a top 20 ish QB. 

If he plays like ass whenever he appears this season, its time to move on.  No 3rd season like Darnold was given.  He doesn't have the same built-in excuses Darnold had.  

Couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of you are going to have a hard time accepting Wilson is good - and it's going to take some time...but you'll eventually come around.

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1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of you are going to have a hard time accepting Wilson is good - and it's going to take some time...but you'll eventually come around.

After more than 2 decades without a real QB here, I'll survive. 

And y'all can spend every day gleefully dunking on me, @T0mShane, @ZachEY and @jgb if it happens.

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3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Looks pretty spry to me. Certainly more spry than Becton looked in those videos you and @Mogglez posted over the summer trying to prove that Mekhi wasn’t morbidly obese.

I was nooooot team “Skinny Becton” bud.  I was hopeful from those videos and posted them for discussion purposes, but VERY critical after he showed off his size at minicamp, effectively proving that he put all the weight back on.  I got in numerous tiffs with people over him afterwards.

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

Everyone was begging for Mike White to start week 2. Flacco was meh going up against Jacoby Brissett until the most unlikely 90 second sequence. Now everyone is crowning him. This fan base is losing its mind.

We are aware that QBs don't actually play against each other, right?

The Browns defense is good.

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54 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

If we’re discounting passes to fit a tidy narrative, I move to strike the two fluke long passes Zach threw against the Titans last year which artificially inflated his stats from “unplayable” to “simply awful” range.

#PeopleForget that it took a missed FG in overtime for us to win the game.

Zach Wilson made some super fun plays, and it was as exciting a game as I can remember, but talk about leaving plays on the table - there were a million opportunities to win that game that Zach missed.

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Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

All that really matters to me is that Zach Wilson isn't auto-guaranteed year 3 unless he balls out or at least plays like a top 20 ish QB. 

If he plays like ass whenever he appears this season, its time to move on.  No 3rd season like Darnold was given.  

Oh, on this we agree. 

If he hasn't taken big step this year and is still clearly a bottom of the league QB, I will be campaigning to trade for a legit vet and/or draft another QB. 

I expect a 2:1 TD/INT ratio, yards/attempt over 7 (7.1. was 18th best in the league last year), and well over 60% completion percentage. I think not meeting any of those is really bad and probably means I'm out. 

I'll even say this - if somehow this injury really is worse than they are letting on and he can't get back on the field this year, I'd definitely bring in competition and might even move on, entirely. 

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Just now, kdels62 said:

2 bad games 

1 good game 

1 game with extended garbage time that got fake close at the end

That being said year 3 Darnold compared to year 2 Wilson isn’t equivalent.

I'd say it is, because Wilson is set up for success far better than year 3 Darnold was.  So the expectations are the same:  Produce or move on to a new QB.

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8 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of you are going to have a hard time accepting Wilson is good - and it's going to take some time...but you'll eventually come around.

I honestly don't think so.

If Zach plays, and throws for (for example) 62%, for 300+ yards, for 3 TD's vs. 0 INT's in a win, I will happily give him credit for a great game.

If he plays that way repeatedly over the course of the remainder of the season, I'll happily look forward to his future here.

If he's consistently sub-60%, sub-225 Passing YPG, and less than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, I will not call that "good" no matter what some fans "eye test" says to them.

The same way, other than limiting INT's, I do not see nor agree to the great improvement some of you see in Zach post-injury in 2021.   

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52 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I mean...Flacco did seem to settle in towards the end and firing away. Closing out the game in big moments counts for something. Still hate his cement feet.

That Flacco isn't actually good is only, and will only be, more damning to Wilson.

Flacco is proving that this offense has the tools to function.  The injuries on the offensive line hurt, and definitely robbed us from our peak.  But if Joe Flacco at this age can make this offense go, frankly, against two quality defenses, then there's no excuse for the #2 overall pick to not be able to at least do the same.  Wilson needs to be better than okay this year, if Flacco loses the job, or he needs to not be the top option next year.

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6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

If Zach is not producing/reaching certain basic metrics for QB play, yes, I will be critical of his lack of production/performance.

I think this is fair, I don't think he could be good without achieving some metrics that are aligned with the top performers in the league.  But ultimately context will matter.

 

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Zach should produce in a way that would give observers faith that he is a forthcoming franchise QB. 

Not a game manager or a 37 year old has-been. 

And he needs to do it now, or as close to now as possible.  Not "some day, over the rainbow". 

I'm sorry, but my patience for him is simply not the same as yours.  Same as it wasn't the same when it was Darnold in this spot, and these same debates occurred.

I don't have nearly the patience you're giving me credit for.   I think Zach has to produce this year.  I don't see any reasonable excuses for him not to.  I can't imagine him being a game manage type either - just not in his nature.  Zach's either going to be a top 10 QB in this league or going to flame out.  I don't think there's an in-between. 

What I think you'll see from Zach this year is a QB that will show faaaar more consistency than he did last year.  Far more comfort in the pocket than he did last year.  Someone that is likely to get the ball out faster as well...

BUT....he's still going to have some bone-headed plays or clunker of games.  He's just too young...but I expect those games to be few and far between..

and I expect to see the level or production go up dramatically.  

What you find in most of the 1st year QB's that find success is a really strong go to WR.  Zach didn't have that last year - he does now.  When first reads are open it's a different game - and Zach's going to have a lot of that this year.

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47 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

The only reason he wouldn't play, I assume, is because Flacco looks like a top QB and winning games. No harm in sitting Zach at that point and going with what's working. Saleh needs wins. 

We know what Flacco is and what he isn't at this point of his career, and if Zach Wilson isn't better than that, that's about it for Zach Wilson.  I agree that Flacco should keep playing if he's winning.  But, I also think Zach Wilson should look good enough in practice that you don't have any doubts that he would do the same or better.

If Flacco was in for Justin Herbert right now, there'd be no doubt he'd be sitting.  Instead, Flacco is in for a guy who's been objectively terrible thus far.  If he can't show in practice that he's not objectively terrible so that the coaches believe he belongs in the game, then that's on Wilson.

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8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

After more than 2 decades without a real QB here, I'll survive. 

And y'all can spend every day gleefully dunking on me, @T0mShane, @ZachEY and @jgb if it happens.

Not my style to dunk...

But I will say, it's still going to be a battle - you guys are so dug in - that's it's going to be hard for you see anything positive from ZDubs. You're going to be looking for the negative and will have a hard time seeing anything but.  It will take some time - but I'll be here to continue to show you the light...

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45 minutes ago, Claymation said:

...without an interception by Davis, the Jets are staring at an 0-2 record. So what's the point.

I would like to see Zach play to find out what the Jets have.

Why should anyone within this organization care about the fans "need" to see it?  They're in practices and meetings.  No one on this website actually needed to "see what we have in Hackenberg" despite the ongoing refrain.

It's in the Jets best interest to have Zach Wilson out there and playing well.  If he's not, it's not because they don't want to "see what they have," it's because the people inside actually know what they have.

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9 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'd say it is, because Wilson is set up for success far better than year 3 Darnold was.  So the expectations are the same:  Produce or move on to a new QB.

Darold's year two was better than his year 1.  He did show growth, problem with Sam was he hit a wall.  That growth stopped and never got any better.

With that said, I agree.  With this talent, there is no reason Wilson shouldn't have most of us sold that he's the guy.

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44 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Except there's a ton of it.

Rookie years are about growth - and Zach showed a lot of it through that process - showed he can work through adversity, recognize his flaws, fix his game and solve those problems.

Additionally, in camp - Zach also showed growth and consistency.  He was stacking 6. 7, 8 consecutive practices together before the injury

It really doesn't matter anymore.   In two weeks we'll see him on the field and this will all be past us.

Zach Wilson proved he could not throw interceptions while also not throwing touchdowns.  You've framed that as growth.  In the same way Jets fans desperately wanted to frame the last 4 games of Darnold's miserable (but considerably better than Wilson's) rookie year as growth.

And then what happened!

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13 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of you are going to have a hard time accepting Wilson is good - and it's going to take some time...but you'll eventually come around.

If I was interested in Zach eventually becoming good, I’d sit him until he legitimately beats out Flacco. As it stands, if they force him back into playing just as the Jets move into the meat-grinder part of the schedule, Zach is going to get blamed for that guaranteed string of beat downs. 

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12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'd say it is, because Wilson is set up for success far better than year 3 Darnold was.  So the expectations are the same:  Produce or move on to a new QB.

The excuse making if he fails will be disgusting. Suddenly the “best Jets talent in 20 years” will become “paper tiger that hasn’t gelled.”

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17 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

I was nooooot team “Skinny Becton” bud.  I was hopeful from those videos and posted them for discussion purposes, but VERY critical after he showed off his size at minicamp, effectively proving that he put all the weight back on.  I got in numerous tiffs with people over him afterwards.

I was just trying to get your dad’s day off on a spicy foot.

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30 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Do you honestly believe, based on everything we've seen/heard about the injury and the recovery, that if Zach Wilson had a Justin Herbert-like rookie season, he'd wouldn't have started last week?  Or, that we'd be waiting on 110%?

Have no idea.  But this I do know.  A knee isn’t playing out the 4th in pain.  Don’t know which needs to keep you out of games.  Or if Herbert will play, last I read he hasn’t practiced because of his ribs.  Don’t know if a shot for the pain and you can play.  And you’re not doing that with a joint

Also, a team thinking it has SB aspirations may treat matters differently.  Players want to play.  Do you really think they asked ZW if he wanted in and he said no?  

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37 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

arm, mobility/elusiveness, and his quick release are all above average. 

decision making and accuracy was bad as a rookie. 

So, if I were to distill these skills down, would it be fair to say, "good athlete, bad quarterback?"

I'd also argue that if disected, his mobility/elusiveness, isn't actually a plus right now, because, it's only in line with athleticism.  He has the athletic ability to move around a bit.  However, he doesn't have any of the QB skill/footwork to take one smart, decisive step to avoid the rush.  I'd take another QB's ability to take a good step and avoid the rush over Wilson's ability to spin away from it and run outside and throw the ball every time.

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