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Saleh's press conference - Sounds like Flacco does have a shot to be the qb this year


Joe W. Namath
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16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I honestly don't think so.

If Zach plays, and throws for (for example) 62%, for 300+ yards, for 3 TD's vs. 0 INT's in a win, I will happily give him credit for a great game.

If he plays that way repeatedly over the course of the remainder of the season, I'll happily look forward to his future here.

If he's consistently sub-60%, sub-225 Passing YPG, and less than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, I will not call that "good" no matter what some fans "eye test" says to them.

The same way, other than limiting INT's, I do not see nor agree to the great improvement some of you see in Zach post-injury in 2021.   

But there you go again..

300 yards a game is a 5100 yard season.  235 yards per game average is a 4000 yard season. (250 is you're going by the 16 game sched.)

If ZW is winning, say at a .500 clip -  averaging 250 a game, 2:1 TD:INT ration - 58-62% completion

I don't know how you could see those #'s as anything but a massively positive sign.  

Again, I think eye test is everything - but if you're going strictly by numbers....these are realistic, attainable and are about where I think he'll end up.

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8 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Why should anyone within this organization care about the fans "need" to see it?  They're in practices and meetings.  No one on this website actually needed to "see what we have in Hackenberg" despite the ongoing refrain.

It's in the Jets best interest to have Zach Wilson out there and playing well.  If he's not, it's not because they don't want to "see what they have," it's because the people inside actually know what they have.

Seeing what you have is generally reserved for preseason and rookie seasons. Wilson getting hurt twice is part of the seeing what you have picture too. 

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8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

If I was interested in Zach eventually becoming good, I’d sit him until he legitimately beats out Flacco. As it stands, if they force him back into playing just as the Jets move into the meat-grinder part of the schedule, Zach is going to get blamed for that guaranteed string of beat downs. 

Look, you know I believe this...

That the NY Jets believe Zach Wilson is the better QB.  They are going to play Zach because they believe he gives them the best chance to win football games.

 

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3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

But there you go again..

300 yards a game is a 5100 yard season.  235 yards per game average is a 4000 yard season. (250 is you're going by the 16 game sched.)

If ZW is winning, say at a .500 clip -  averaging 250 a game, 2:1 TD:INT ration - 58-62% completion

I don't know how you could see those #'s as anything but a massively positive sign.  

Again, I think eye test is everything - but if you're going strictly by numbers....these are realistic, attainable and are about where I think he'll end up.

“Eye test is everything” only at the ophthalmologist. QB is about production and hey, they got stats for that.

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10 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Zach Wilson proved he could not throw interceptions while also not throwing touchdowns.  You've framed that as growth.  In the same way Jets fans desperately wanted to frame the last 4 games of Darnold's miserable (but considerably better than Wilson's) rookie year as growth.

And then what happened!

Zach became one of the leagues most efficient short game passers over the last quarter of the season.

He did that despite having no deep threats - and teams were able to stack the box against him.  So, yes.  I believe he had real trouble with short passes last year - I believe he solved that problem and grew.

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22 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

That Flacco isn't actually good is only, and will only be, more damning to Wilson.

Flacco is proving that this offense has the tools to function.  The injuries on the offensive line hurt, and definitely robbed us from our peak.  But if Joe Flacco at this age can make this offense go, frankly, against two quality defenses, then there's no excuse for the #2 overall pick to not be able to at least do the same.  Wilson needs to be better than okay this year, if Flacco loses the job, or he needs to not be the top option next year.

“Flacco is a vet with a lot of experience how can you expect a 2nd year player that missed a bunch of time to keep up? Hater troll!”

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1 minute ago, jgb said:

“Eye test is everything” only at the ophthalmologist. QB is about production and hey, they got stats for that.

Nah...

I watch enough football to know what's good and what isn't.

We can look at Flacco's week 1 performance as a prime example.  #'s look solid, performance was terrible.  

But I put numbers out there just to satisfy the guys that likely don't watch enough football to understand the difference.

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

But there you go again..

300 yards a game is a 5100 yard season.  235 yards per game average is a 4000 yard season. (250 is you're going by the 16 game sched.)

I wasn't "going by a 16 game schedule".  I was citing an example of a very good game where I would give him credit.

Expecting a franchise QB prospect to throw up the occasional 300+ yard, multiple TD game ISN'T unreasonable.

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

If ZW is winning, say at a .500 clip -  averaging 250 a game, 2:1 TD:INT ration - 58-62% completion

Sorry, sub 60% is completely unacceptable.  62% is more like the baseline these days for competence, not 58%.

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I don't know how you could see those #'s as anything but a massively positive sign.

You're just re-stating in the positive what I've already stated in the negative:

To repeat:  If he's consistently sub-60%, sub-225 Passing YPG, and less than a 2:1 TD:INT ratio, I will not call that "good" no matter what some fans "eye test" says to them.

By extension, if he's 62%+, 250+ YPG, 2:1 TD:INT+, I would call that a "positive sign" absolutely.

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Again, I think eye test is everything

We'll agree to disagree, I think fan eye test is close to worthless as an evaluation tool.

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

- but if you're going strictly by numbers....these are realistic, attainable and are about where I think he'll end up.

Fair enough.  We'll have to revisit, once Zach starts playing.

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Just now, FidelioJet said:

Nah...

I watch enough football to know what's good and what isn't.

We can look at Flacco's week 1 performance as a prime example.  #'s look solid, performance was terrible.  

But I put numbers out there just to satisfy the guys that likely don't watch enough football to understand the difference.

Ok then validate this eye test. When has it been right. I have a couple examples of my production test smashing towering grand slams.

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2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Ok then validate this eye test. When has it been right. I have a couple examples of my production test smashing towering grand slams.

Not sure I understand your question.

But I'll try - I mean I just did validate it.  Just from week 1.  

Joe Flacco put up over 300 yards, solid stats...but if you watched the game - and used the "eye-test" he was bad.   

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1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

Besides, "Good Arm," would you elaborate on this?

Why I still believe in Zach?

- Work Ethic: He has the work ethic and desire to improve that you see from top QBs. He lives for football

- Arm Strength: He can make every throw on the field. This makes it so that defenses have to cover the entire field

- Agility: He is a quick twitch athlete. This helps him avoid sacks and put additional pressure on the defense

- Ball Release: His release is lightning quick.

His ball release and arm strength are elite in my opinion. Agility is good.

What will hold him back?

- Accuracy: He has not been accurate at the NFL level. He was in college. My assumption is that his accuracy issues are due to processing issues

- Processing Speed: this is the big red flag to me and will determine whether he will be below average or above average. Nobody can predict if he will turn the corner with processing defenses etc. 

- Injuries: he has a history of injuries that is concerning

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2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Not sure I understand your question.

But I'll try - I mean I just did validate it.  Just from week 1.  

Joe Flacco put up over 300 yards, solid stats...but if you watched the game - and used the "eye-test" he was bad.   

A test is only useful if it is predictive. When have you used the “eye test” to identify a good QB despite garbage production? When has it worked?

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25 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of you are going to have a hard time accepting Wilson is good - and it's going to take some time...but you'll eventually come around.

Nope.  This is the kind of assumption that someone who doesn't deal in reality makes, again with no evidence.

Shane, Warfish, 80, jgb, myself, and many more, have accepted the reality of our QBs for as long as we've been posting here.  It's not our fault that that reality has never given us the opportunity to be positive about a QB.  You, and others like you (though in the Zach-version, you're obviously the most deluded) are the ones that refuse to accept reality.

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14 minutes ago, jgb said:

“Eye test is everything” only at the ophthalmologist. QB is about production and hey, they got stats for that.

And as a starting QB what is the ultimate stat 1-6 . Wilson is 3-10 , so he's had 3 times the wins in 6 more starts as a rookie no less. Flacco would have to go 2-4 just to reach the "suckitude" of Wilson. Can you predict 2 more Flacco wins coming up ? 

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I want to learn this season if Zack Wilson is a franchise QB, and I also want to win games.  It would be great if both happen concurrently, but as long as Flacco continues to win games, he is going to remain the starter. We've had so many games over the last 20 seasons handed over to backup bums that had no business being in the NFL, and now that we have a decent NFL veteran, we want to yank him off the field as soon as possible.  Don't worry, Flacco will eventually play down to his late career averages and take his rightful spot on the bench, but until that happens, you have to ride him like a pack mule. Zack will get his chance this season.

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1 hour ago, kdels62 said:

5 passes in a preseason game are indicative of nothing. Zach was much better at the green and white scrimmage this year than last. That’s also not much evidence but it’s just as valid as 5 passes.

Look, Zack isn't very good right now but he does have potential.  After the Browns game, Flacco gives us the best chance to win till proven otherwise.  Like any other average QB he needs a half decent OL to play well.  Week 1 not so much, week 2, yes but a miracle was still required. 

I can see why many fans would be on the fence re the starter.  IMHO Joe passes the eyeball test with higher grades than Zack.  Let him sit and watch and learn and get hungry till Joe fades.        

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I dunno.  Maybe seeing Flacco assist Garrett Wilson in looking like a stud?  I think that's "the point".  

Saw a stat that had Flacco's QBR at 102 when Garrett was on the field but only 62 when Garrett wasn't. One could argue that the weapons maketh the QB. 

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9 minutes ago, jgb said:

A test is only useful if it is predictive. When have you used the “eye test” to identify a good QB despite garbage production? When has it worked?

Football isn't a science experiment.  But I'll indulge you.

Okay....2 of the top 5 QB's in the NFL had very tough rookie seasons - should those teams have given up on them? because they didn't put up quality stats their rookie years?

Or did they see something in them that said - my eyes - as a coach tell me this kid is special?

Eventually, of course, stats will align with the eyes - and over time - outlier games won't heavily skew results.

but when you're talking about such a small sample of 13 games, and within that small sample size you're dealing with many variables (youth, new coaches, new systems, massive injuries) using your eyes is more important that stats. 

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19 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I would say, he was a good athlete and bad QB as a rookie, yes. 

Got it.  So, for 100% of the time he's been on an NFL field.

I actually don't think anyone of the #CERTIFIEDH8ERZZZ is saying that it's impossible that Zach Wilson will improve.  They're saying, "It's extremely unlikely, and we've not seen any convincing reason to believe it has or will happen."

On the other side, re: his improvement, you have people arguing somewhere on the spectrum of, "it's very likely to happen" to "it already has happened."

I've been a fan long enough to remember being assured that:

1) Mark Sanchez would improve off of his rookie year.

2) Sam Darnold would improve off of his rookie year.

3) Mark Sanchez would make the Jets regret letting him go.

4) Sam Darnold would make the Jets regret letting him go.

I'll believe it when I see it, and I have significant doubts that I'm going to see it, isn't a radical take - it's the only one that doesn't really include feelings.

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7 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Nope.  This is the kind of assumption that someone who doesn't deal in reality makes, again with no evidence.

Shane, Warfish, 80, jgb, myself, and many more, have accepted the reality of our QBs for as long as we've been posting here.  It's not our fault that that reality has never given us the opportunity to be positive about a QB.  You, and others like you (though in the Zach-version, you're obviously the most deluded) are the ones that refuse to accept reality.

Way to go out on the limb.  How many QB's flourish on bad teams . Its like accepting if you eat a bad diet, smoke, drink, don't exercise you'll probably have health issues. Its not like you have some revolutionary vision that other fans aren't seeing , your just predicting failure with no ramifications of being wrong. Now go pat yourself on the back  if that makes you feel better.  

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1 minute ago, LIJetsFan said:

Look, Zack isn't very good right now but he does have potential.  After the Browns game, Flacco gives us the best chance to win till proven otherwise.  Like any other average QB he needs a half decent OL to play well.  Week 1 not so much, week 2, yes but a miracle was still required. 

I can see why many fans would be on the fence re the starter.  IMHO Joe passes the eyeball test with higher grades than Zack.  Let him sit and watch and learn and get hungry till Joe fades.        

Remember a week ago? How was the Joe Flacco eyeball test then? How is the eye ball test if Nick Chubb doesn’t have a brain fart? 

Does it matter that Wilson had a good training camp before his injury or that his teammates named him captain? 

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22 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Zach became one of the leagues most efficient short game passers over the last quarter of the season.

He did that despite having no deep threats - and teams were able to stack the box against him.  So, yes.  I believe he had real trouble with short passes last year - I believe he solved that problem and grew.

Wait - one of the leagues most efficient short game passers over the last quarter of the season?

Why didn't you lead with that?

I mean, seriously?  Does Roger Goodell know?  I know there wasn't precedent, but it seems like something like that should have been at least considered for an At-Large Playoff bid, no?

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1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Football isn't a science experiment.  

Okay....2 of the top 5 QB's in the NFL had very tough rookie seasons - should those teams have given up on them? because they didn't put up quality stats their rookie years?

Or did they see something in them that said - my eyes - as a coach tell me this kid is special?

Eventually, of course, stats will align with the eyes - and over time - outlier games won't heavily skew results.

but when you're talking about such a small sample of 13 games, and within that small sample size you're dealing with many variables (like youth, new coaches, new systems, massive injuries) using your eyes is more important that stats. 

LOL

Herbert is about to play with hanging flesh from his ribs

 

Zachary Wilson is soft period OR this coaching staff don’t believe in the kid. 
 

NO franchise QB sits until he’s 110% don’t be crazy, Phillip Rivers played a season with one knee. 
 

Accept it, the writing is on the wall 🤷‍♂️

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36 minutes ago, ZachEY said:

Why should anyone within this organization care about the fans "need" to see it?  They're in practices and meetings.  No one on this website actually needed to "see what we have in Hackenberg" despite the ongoing refrain.

It's in the Jets best interest to have Zach Wilson out there and playing well.  If he's not, it's not because they don't want to "see what they have," it's because the people inside actually know what they have.

So you are saying that the injury to Zach is nothing more than a ruse just to keep Zach out of the lineup? 

I can't have a discussion with that. I concede...you win.

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6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Okay....2 of the top 5 QB's in the NFL had very tough rookie seasons - should those teams have given up on them? because they didn't put up quality stats their rookie years?

Or did they see something in them that said - my eyes - as a coach tell me this kid is special?

Just so we're clear, who are you referring to here?

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Just now, ZachEY said:

Got it.  So, for 100% of the time he's been on an NFL field.

I actually don't think anyone of the #CERTIFIEDH8ERZZZ is saying that it's impossible that Zach Wilson will improve.  They're saying, "It's extremely unlikely, and we've not seen any convincing reason to believe it has or will happen."

On the other side, re: his improvement, you have people arguing somewhere on the spectrum of, "it's very likely to happen" to "it already has happened."

I've been a fan long enough to remember being assured that:

1) Mark Sanchez would improve off of his rookie year.

2) Sam Darnold would improve off of his rookie year.

3) Mark Sanchez would make the Jets regret letting him go.

4) Sam Darnold would make the Jets regret letting him go.

I'll believe it when I see it, and I have significant doubts that I'm going to see it, isn't a radical take - it's the only one that doesn't really include feelings.

Most QBs bust but in order to know he is a bust he has to play. Unless he’s so bad the team just swallows the loss (ie Hackenberg).


Saying there’s no evidence when there has been no opportunity for there to be evidence begs the fact. By most accounts Wilson was better in training camp than he was last year that might indicate improvement but if you want evidence and an answer he has to play regardless of the low ceiling success of Joe Flacco. 

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Seeing how there is talk about Herbert playing

Zach fans I love y’all, I love Zach but I’m A JET FIRST! 

And if I’m looking at this unbiased: Zach is not a franchise QB, no player, NO franchise QB stays out until they are 110% after “minor surgery” 

 

The writing is on the wall people 

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15 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Why I still believe in Zach?

- Work Ethic: He has the work ethic and desire to improve that you see from top QBs. He lives for football

- Arm Strength: He can make every throw on the field. This makes it so that defenses have to cover the entire field

- Agility: He is a quick twitch athlete. This helps him avoid sacks and put additional pressure on the defense

- Ball Release: His release is lightning quick.

His ball release and arm strength are elite in my opinion. Agility is good.

What will hold him back?

- Accuracy: He has not been accurate at the NFL level. He was in college. My assumption is that his accuracy issues are due to processing issues

- Processing Speed: this is the big red flag to me and will determine whether he will be below average or above average. Nobody can predict if he will turn the corner with processing defenses etc. 

- Injuries: he has a history of injuries that is concerning

I disagree with some of this, but appreciate you doing it.  Would you do me a solid and rank these in order of importance as far as franchise QBs go?

I will say that the main one that I disagree with is agility.  Obviously a plus trait for him, but if it's one of your top traits, you'd expect it to be better than it is.  Zach isn't Lamar Jackson - maybe you could make the argument he's a top 10 athlete at the position.  Not sure though.

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  • No Jets' Medical Report has been accurate.   The sound of Zach's injury is such that it will be awhile before he is completely better.
  • Flacco looked washed up week 1 and solid in week 2.  He can keep playing so long as he is healthy and plays solid.  I do think there will be a logical point where Zach gets back in the game.  He will benefit from opponents preparing for Flacco.
  • I am finding it hard to believe that the Jets would renew Flacco for 2023.  You never know though.  JD may have found an efficient way to find backup/QB2s-old QBs.  

So I think at this point its day by day, week by week, and when Zach is ready and Flacco gets hurt or plays poorly, put him in.   As opposed to most starting QB situations, I think Flacco's leash is shorter than usual.  

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3 minutes ago, Claymation said:

So you are saying that the injury to Zach is nothing more than a ruse just to keep Zach out of the lineup? 

I can't have a discussion with that. I concede...you win.

If I was saying, "the injury to Zach is nothing more than a ruse just to keep Zach out of the lineup" I probably would have said something like, "the injury to Zach is nothing more than a ruse just to keep Zach out of the lineup."

If you can't understand my post, no shame, just ask.

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