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Saleh's press conference - Sounds like Flacco does have a shot to be the qb this year


Joe W. Namath
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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I wouldn't pull Flacco if - yes huge if - he puts up crazy #s on Sunday (and we win) -- it'll come to an end, but for however long that lasts, ride it out. But merely top 15-ish, for as long as that'd last, barely eking out 1 or even both of the next 2 by the skin of their teeth? No, I'd give him the hook when Zach is 100% or 110% or whatever the hell Saleh's talking about. 

I'll also grant Saleh that we're conveniently planning this out not just in advance, but from our keyboards/phones at that, based on a TV broadcast. We don't have a pulse on the locker room. Yeah they have to follow whatever Saleh says like it or not, but it's not a good thing if under their breath they're all groaning b/c Flacco's on fire & the coach is pissing on those flames to put it out. 

Most likely Flacco's own play will make the decision easier. Hope as I may for any Jets QB to succeed, he's pretty unlikely to put up 350 yards & 3-4 TDs (and 0-1 turnovers) per game over any multi-game stretch. 

I'd only keep playing Joe if the team wins.

I don't care if he puts up 500 yards.  If we're going lose, might as well develop the future of the franchise. 

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11 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

when you go in with pre concieved notions you tend to hear what you want to hear.

You're really hot on this, aren't you? What "preconceived notion" are you referencing?

Ultimately, this feels like an entirely pointless exchange.  What exactly are we disagreeing about and does it matter in any way?

If you think Saleh used the exact perfect words, that he couldn't possibly have been more clear or said it in a better way, ok, great.  I don't agree.

But so what?  It's a near-meaningless disagreement, and seems like you just want to disagree for disagreements sake.

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6 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

perhaps Warfish can parse thru his words to find some ambiguity 

Do you think "with an eye on Week 4" is a definitive statement?

Because I don't.  It's aspirational.  A hope.  A desire.  Not a definitive statement.

Again, why is this such a bug up your ass batman?  I'm honestly at a loss as to why you're so hot on this aspect of things.

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2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Do you think "with an eye on Week 4" is a definitive statement?

Because I don't.  It's aspirational.  A hope.  A desire.  Not a definitive statement.

Again, why is this such a bug up your ass batman?  I'm honestly at a loss as to why you're so hot on this aspect of things.

you feel like there is some big conspiracy theory and i don't.

 

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3 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

you feel like there is some big conspiracy theory and i don't.

 

The Jets have been wishy washy. Why do we always jump to conspiracy theory when people do their personal own attempt at reading through the lines. The 110% thing I’ve never heard before. The Jets have been vague about this from the beginning.

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12 minutes ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I'd only keep playing Joe if the team wins.

I don't care if he puts up 500 yards.  If we're going lose, might as well develop the future of the franchise. 

Well likewise, I don't care if we're winning but he looks meh. Say we win without scoring a TD on offense (or just 1 TD). But yeah we won. I'd still pull Flacco in that situation. 

If he's heaving it all over the field & connecting & that's why we win? That's probably the only reason I'd leave him out there with a healthy Wilson waiting to make his first reg. season appearance. 

The in-between is if he's so lights-out - even in a loss - that the message to the team is, "I don't care how well you play; it's all about where you were drafted." There are high-yardage games where he's great & has the team in the palm of his hand. There are also those that come with 2-3 turnovers -- see Testaverde vs. Baltimore; yeah he threw for ~500 yards, on 70 dropbacks, but he also threw 3 picks (including a pick 6) and was just 16 of 41 when targeting non-RBs. But hey, 481 yards & 2 TDs.

There's room for nuance, but I don't think it'll come to that anyway. 

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4 hours ago, Mogglez said:

 

 @Sperm Edwards and me were talking about garbage time and how some if not most of Flaccos game 1 yds came from that. i  just pointed out that Zach had plenty of Garbage time last year and got no where near 300 yds.

now the Tenn game Zach had 297yds. but i said i didnt count it cause it was a close game all game. there was no garbage time. understand? 

Sperm said it has to be looked at in context and i agree. last year i argued with @SAR I after the Carolina game that he said all Zack did in the 2nd half was garbage time . i was defending Zach. no way at the half down 16-0 was Carolina playing prevent defense. and definitely not when it was 16-8 in the 4th. and you wanna laugh? Sar said that we are like 2-30 when down by 10 points at the half and Carolina new this stat so they played prevent defense that early. but now if it was the Pats or Steelers they would have played hard all game. thats crazy.

yes i was a big Zach defender last year. i used to watch his " all throws" videos after each game to find some good and defend him. 

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26 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

you feel like there is some big conspiracy theory and i don't.

 

Just 2 weeks ago Saleh was saying that there was a chance Wilson could play against the ravens. He was clearly lying. 

Now instead of saying zach will start the second he is healthy, he gives us the "back on the field" line which doesn't mean starting. 

So yeah, it's pretty reasonable to think Saleh is very capable of misleading the fanbase because HE JUST DID 2 weeks ago. 

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3 minutes ago, doitny said:

 @Sperm Edwards and me were talking about garbage time and how some if not most of Flaccos game 1 yds came from that. i  just pointed out that Zach had plenty of Garbage time last year and got no where near 300 yds.

now the Tenn game Zach had 297yds. but i said i didnt count it cause it was a close game all game. there was no garbage time. understand? 

Sperm said it has to be looked at in context and i agree. last year i argued with @SAR I after the Carolina game that he said all Zack did in the 2nd half was garbage time . i was defending Zach. no way at the half down 16-0 was Carolina playing prevent defense. and definitely not when it was 16-8 in the 4th. and you wanna laugh? Sar said that we are like 2-30 when down by 10 points at the half and Carolina new this stat so they played prevent defense that early. but now if it was the Pats or Steelers they would have played hard all game. thats crazy.

yes i was a big Zach defender last year. i used to watch his " all throws" videos after each game to find some good and defend him. 

Gotttcha.  Understand now.

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On 9/19/2022 at 5:43 PM, Beerfish said:

He keeps winning and playing well there is no reason to change, I am 100% confident this will not happen.

1000% if Flacco wins game 3, Zach is back game 4. JD, forget Saleh, needs to see if he’s going to move forward with Zach. Only way to do that is allow him to play. Doesn’t matter if he goes 0-14. JD needs to find out this year if the kid can progress. 

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7 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Couldn’t have said it better myself.  The Flores example is absolutely perfect.

Flores is looking like another one of those "Great coordinator, bad coach" from the tree of Bellichek.  He by all means seemed to love Watson, and did nothing to develop Tua.  Kept pushing Fitzpatrick when they needed a united front.  

We moan about passing on Watson/Mahomes.  How did we get there?  We spent most of 2016 starting old ass Fitzpatrick, to the point we had no idea if Hackenberg was any good.  Therefore, instead of drafting a QB high the next year because we would have known Hackenberg was trash, we played the "what if" game.  If we draft a QB in 2017, then we don't need to trade up with all those second rounders in 2018, and could actually surround the QB with some semblance of talent.  

Putting in the veteran might make Sundays easier in the long term, but it almost always screws up long term plans.  

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7 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Flores is looking like another one of those "Great coordinator, bad coach" from the tree of Bellichek.  He by all means seemed to love Watson, and did nothing to develop Tua.  Kept pushing Fitzpatrick when they needed a united front.  

We moan about passing on Watson/Mahomes.  How did we get there?  We spent most of 2016 starting old ass Fitzpatrick, to the point we had no idea if Hackenberg was any good.  Therefore, instead of drafting a QB high the next year because we would have known Hackenberg was trash, we played the "what if" game.  If we draft a QB in 2017, then we don't need to trade up with all those second rounders in 2018, and could actually surround the QB with some semblance of talent.  

Putting in the veteran might make Sundays easier in the long term, but it almost always screws up long term plans.  

Again another excellent post. 

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18 minutes ago, Maynard13 said:

Doesn’t matter if he goes 0-14.

A wasted season is a season well-spent as long as we "know what Wilson is" at the end of it? Is that right?

Do you think anyone here (i.e. us fans) will agree that we "know what Wilson is" by end of 2022, really?  

Or do you think most fans would still be saying "No, we got to play him in 2023, he needs a third year, for X, Y or Z reasons" in such a case.

 

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41 minutes ago, Warfish said:

A wasted season is a season well-spent as long as we "know what Wilson is" at the end of it? Is that right?

Do you think anyone here (i.e. us fans) will agree that we "know what Wilson is" by end of 2022, really?  

Or do you think most fans would still be saying "No, we got to play him in 2023, he needs a third year, for X, Y or Z reasons" in such a case.

Saleh is convinced he has the next Josh Allen on his team, despite the fact Allen is an extreme outlier case in the context of a year 1 to year 3 quantum leap.

Until he proves he's "the guy", it's basically a judgment call.

Saleh and the Kapono die-hards can always choose to ignore any negative data and/or the "eye test" by citing the Josh Allen case.

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2 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

The above is the absolute correct business move unless Flacco is lights out terrific and we are winning.   Zach is or isn’t our future….  We need to know sooner than later. 

To be honest, even if Flacco goes out and throws for 1000 yards next week and 59 TD’s Zach still needs to play when ready. 
 

A fluke wildcard run is not worth risking knowing if we have a franchise QB in Zach this year

 

this is just my opinion though 

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Just now, oatmeal said:

To be honest, even if Flacco goes out and throws for 1000 yards next week and 59 TD’s Zach still needs to play when ready. 
 

A fluke wildcard run is not worth risking knowing if we have a franchise QB in Zach this year

 

this is just my opinion though 

Agreed

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6 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

To be honest, even if Flacco goes out and throws for 1000 yards next week and 59 TD’s Zach still needs to play when ready. 
 

A fluke wildcard run is not worth risking knowing if we have a franchise QB in Zach this year

 

this is just my opinion though 

Eh. I'm in the camp of if a QB is playing well enough to get us in the playoff dance...roll with that guy. Zach can happen next year. Won't be in position to take a top QB in the draft anyway. 

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10 hours ago, T0mShane said:

But they’ve seen him in real games. 13 of them. That’s a lot of games. They know what his strengths and weaknesses are, and they know that there’s not some secretly great Zach Wilson that only shows up when the bright lights are on. They just spent six months over the summer working with him on this sh*t, so they should know if he’s improved or not. I’m sure he’ll play at some point this season, but I don’t see how it’s imperative to get him out there immediately. It seems the team believes the same because they’re keeping him on the bench like they did last year when he was a healthy scratch against the Dolphins. 

What would be your plan?  Cut him, trade him for whatever you could get?  Never play him until out of playoff contention?  Do you think he may have any potential yet unrealized or after a rookie year with an awful supporting cast you can definitively say he’ll never be any good? It just doesn’t make sense to give up on a high draft choice with such little real game experience, especially when historically the biggest leap a player makes is between year 1 and 2

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1 hour ago, win4ever said:

I've been actually optimistic about Wilson this year, was in the process of breaking down some film about his progression.  When we drafted him, I thought he was a mix of Jordan Love/Fitzpatrick, but he's an athletic ability pick.  He had too many bad habits to walk in, and be anointed the job like last year.  Later in the year, he corrected some of them, but the big aspect for me was his running.  His running ability isn't anything special, a lot of QBs nowadays can run in the open field like him.  However, him recognizing the moments to step up and take off was very important, because they were dropping linebackers back into passing lanes.  Early year Wilson tries to fit it in tight windows, whereas late season Wilson recognized that no one but Berrios had any real shot at getting open, and taking advantage of the situation.  Those situational awareness spikes gave me hope, because with better weapons, teams can't drop those linebackers quite as much.  This year, the defenses have to pick and choose.

A good example is the sideline pass to Moore at the end of the first, it's a simple out route against what I think is zone.  The read is high-low, so Flacco can see if Moore is open, and then have two chip and release routes from the TE and RB on opposite sides.  He makes the pass to Moore, so it was moot, but both the TE/RB are open for easy passes in space.  With Wilson last year, he was seeing the first read as Flacco did this year, but not trusting the check downs early on.  He would hold onto hopes the deeper routes would open up.  Near the end of the year, our players were so bad that defenses would basically cover them regardless, and Wilson recognized the "check-down" option was himself.  

So I thought Wilson would improve at a substantial pace, because the arm talent is there.  He just needs the mental reps, which I thought were best if he sat.  Then he got injured, and I'm not sure how much he trusts his legs right now.  I think that's why they are waiting as much as possible, until Week 4 at the earliest, because if his legs aren't there, he's going to regress from last year.  There's a play early in the Browns game where Flacco runs for a first, but the defense sold out for coverage, and pretty much covered the passing lanes.  That's one of those, if you can run, you beat us play calls.  Wilson saw a ton of those early last year, and decided to try and make the perfect throw.  However, if he can run consistently in those situations, then the defense has to change.  In this situation Sunday, the Browns LB turned around and chased the TE with his back to the ball.  If he stays facing the QB, the receiver out of the slot has a much better shot at getting open for an easy completion.  I think that's why they want to make sure Wilson is running at peak level before bringing him back, because otherwise teams are going to dare him to run in those situations.  If he can't, he reverts back to the early days last year, where he's making that difficult pass attempt as his only option.  

Exactly, this team isn't going anywhere with Flacco.  It lives or dies with a QB that has potential.  You put in Wilson to see if he is that franchise QB, and you develop timing with Moore/Wilson.  Those two are great route runners because they read the hips of the defenders to set up their stems, but they also need the QB to be on the same page, because they make take an extra step or so to make sure they can shake the CB.  If Wilson is the QB, great.  However, if Wilson is not the QB, they need to find out if that's the case. 

We see it with Tua.  They went all in on weapons to see if he's the one or not.  If he had failed this year, he would have been out.  Same with Josh Allen, they went out and got him Diggs to see if he's going to develop as a passer, and he did.  With QB contracts these days, paying top tier to a mid tier guy really sets your team back.  A good example being the Titans paying Tannehill, which kinda prevented them from paying Brown.  

We also saw this with Matt Ryan, who has been a mid tier guy for many years, but they can't build around him because he can't elevate the players, and they can't afford to sign all the guys.  Albeit, he's sucked this year, but we see the Colts be stuck in the middle.  Same with Carr now, top tier pay for mid tier play means you better find a litany of studs for cheap at other positions.  Russel Wilson last year with Seahawks or the reason why the 49ers were so adamant on moving to Lance this year.  They know to consistently compete, you need the QB to play at a top tier rate, or be cheap.  

I'm at least hoping Flacco raises his trade market for a late round pick maybe.  Say the Cowboys or someone need to tread water.  

Excellent post, but if you’re pinning your hopes on Wilson providing a rushing threat, don’t you have to consider the fact that he’s probably not going to survive if he runs the ball regularly? He had 29 carries last year and missed four games, then blows the knee up running by himself. I’d be extremely wary of having confidence in Zach if that confidence revolves around him not getting killed on scrambles.

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1 hour ago, win4ever said:

Flores is looking like another one of those "Great coordinator, bad coach" from the tree of Bellichek.  He by all means seemed to love Watson, and did nothing to develop Tua.  Kept pushing Fitzpatrick when they needed a united front.  

We moan about passing on Watson/Mahomes.  How did we get there?  We spent most of 2016 starting old ass Fitzpatrick, to the point we had no idea if Hackenberg was any good.  Therefore, instead of drafting a QB high the next year because we would have known Hackenberg was trash, we played the "what if" game.  If we draft a QB in 2017, then we don't need to trade up with all those second rounders in 2018, and could actually surround the QB with some semblance of talent.  

Putting in the veteran might make Sundays easier in the long term, but it almost always screws up long term plans.  

They knew Hackenberg was trash after his first practice. The Jets didn’t draft a QB there because their entire process has been wrong. The Cardinals are at least the team that did this right with Rosen and Kyler.

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Do you think "with an eye on Week 4" is a definitive statement?

Because I don't.  It's aspirational.  A hope.  A desire.  Not a definitive statement.

Again, why is this such a bug up your ass batman?  I'm honestly at a loss as to why you're so hot on this aspect of things.

I do think he left a little bit of ambiguity in there to be able to continue with Flacco.

But he also showed full support of Zach Wilson - and there was nothing ambiguous about that.

 

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26 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Saleh is convinced he has the next Josh Allen on his team, despite the fact Allen is an extreme outlier case in the context of a year 1 to year 3 quantum leap.

Until he proves he's "the guy", it's basically a judgment call.

Saleh and the Kapono die-hards can always choose to ignore any negative data and/or the "eye test" by citing the Josh Allen case.

No one here knows what Saleh truly thinks about Zach . You can spin this any way you want but what we have to go by is that the CS feels Zach is the starting QB when healthy plain and simple. 

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7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

They knew Hackenberg was trash after his first practice. The Jets didn’t draft a QB there because their entire process has been wrong. The Cardinals are at least the team that did this right with Rosen and Kyler.

They did it right because Kyler worked out , if he didn't they'd be crucified for making mistake after mistake. 

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1 hour ago, win4ever said:

I've been actually optimistic about Wilson this year, was in the process of breaking down some film about his progression.  When we drafted him, I thought he was a mix of Jordan Love/Fitzpatrick, but he's an athletic ability pick.  He had too many bad habits to walk in, and be anointed the job like last year.  Later in the year, he corrected some of them, but the big aspect for me was his running.  His running ability isn't anything special, a lot of QBs nowadays can run in the open field like him.  However, him recognizing the moments to step up and take off was very important, because they were dropping linebackers back into passing lanes.  Early year Wilson tries to fit it in tight windows, whereas late season Wilson recognized that no one but Berrios had any real shot at getting open, and taking advantage of the situation.  Those situational awareness spikes gave me hope, because with better weapons, teams can't drop those linebackers quite as much.  This year, the defenses have to pick and choose.

A good example is the sideline pass to Moore at the end of the first, it's a simple out route against what I think is zone.  The read is high-low, so Flacco can see if Moore is open, and then have two chip and release routes from the TE and RB on opposite sides.  He makes the pass to Moore, so it was moot, but both the TE/RB are open for easy passes in space.  With Wilson last year, he was seeing the first read as Flacco did this year, but not trusting the check downs early on.  He would hold onto hopes the deeper routes would open up.  Near the end of the year, our players were so bad that defenses would basically cover them regardless, and Wilson recognized the "check-down" option was himself.  

So I thought Wilson would improve at a substantial pace, because the arm talent is there.  He just needs the mental reps, which I thought were best if he sat.  Then he got injured, and I'm not sure how much he trusts his legs right now.  I think that's why they are waiting as much as possible, until Week 4 at the earliest, because if his legs aren't there, he's going to regress from last year.  There's a play early in the Browns game where Flacco runs for a first, but the defense sold out for coverage, and pretty much covered the passing lanes.  That's one of those, if you can run, you beat us play calls.  Wilson saw a ton of those early last year, and decided to try and make the perfect throw.  However, if he can run consistently in those situations, then the defense has to change.  In this situation Sunday, the Browns LB turned around and chased the TE with his back to the ball.  If he stays facing the QB, the receiver out of the slot has a much better shot at getting open for an easy completion.  I think that's why they want to make sure Wilson is running at peak level before bringing him back, because otherwise teams are going to dare him to run in those situations.  If he can't, he reverts back to the early days last year, where he's making that difficult pass attempt as his only option.  

Exactly, this team isn't going anywhere with Flacco.  It lives or dies with a QB that has potential.  You put in Wilson to see if he is that franchise QB, and you develop timing with Moore/Wilson.  Those two are great route runners because they read the hips of the defenders to set up their stems, but they also need the QB to be on the same page, because they make take an extra step or so to make sure they can shake the CB.  If Wilson is the QB, great.  However, if Wilson is not the QB, they need to find out if that's the case. 

We see it with Tua.  They went all in on weapons to see if he's the one or not.  If he had failed this year, he would have been out.  Same with Josh Allen, they went out and got him Diggs to see if he's going to develop as a passer, and he did.  With QB contracts these days, paying top tier to a mid tier guy really sets your team back.  A good example being the Titans paying Tannehill, which kinda prevented them from paying Brown.  

We also saw this with Matt Ryan, who has been a mid tier guy for many years, but they can't build around him because he can't elevate the players, and they can't afford to sign all the guys.  Albeit, he's sucked this year, but we see the Colts be stuck in the middle.  Same with Carr now, top tier pay for mid tier play means you better find a litany of studs for cheap at other positions.  Russel Wilson last year with Seahawks or the reason why the 49ers were so adamant on moving to Lance this year.  They know to consistently compete, you need the QB to play at a top tier rate, or be cheap.  

I'm at least hoping Flacco raises his trade market for a late round pick maybe.  Say the Cowboys or someone need to tread water.  

Awesome post!

shots fired at tannehill tho @jgb

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