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Saleh's press conference - Sounds like Flacco does have a shot to be the qb this year


Joe W. Namath
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1 hour ago, win4ever said:

I've been actually optimistic about Wilson this year, was in the process of breaking down some film about his progression.  When we drafted him, I thought he was a mix of Jordan Love/Fitzpatrick, but he's an athletic ability pick.  He had too many bad habits to walk in, and be anointed the job like last year.  Later in the year, he corrected some of them, but the big aspect for me was his running.  His running ability isn't anything special, a lot of QBs nowadays can run in the open field like him.  However, him recognizing the moments to step up and take off was very important, because they were dropping linebackers back into passing lanes.  Early year Wilson tries to fit it in tight windows, whereas late season Wilson recognized that no one but Berrios had any real shot at getting open, and taking advantage of the situation.  Those situational awareness spikes gave me hope, because with better weapons, teams can't drop those linebackers quite as much.  This year, the defenses have to pick and choose.

A good example is the sideline pass to Moore at the end of the first, it's a simple out route against what I think is zone.  The read is high-low, so Flacco can see if Moore is open, and then have two chip and release routes from the TE and RB on opposite sides.  He makes the pass to Moore, so it was moot, but both the TE/RB are open for easy passes in space.  With Wilson last year, he was seeing the first read as Flacco did this year, but not trusting the check downs early on.  He would hold onto hopes the deeper routes would open up.  Near the end of the year, our players were so bad that defenses would basically cover them regardless, and Wilson recognized the "check-down" option was himself.  

So I thought Wilson would improve at a substantial pace, because the arm talent is there.  He just needs the mental reps, which I thought were best if he sat.  Then he got injured, and I'm not sure how much he trusts his legs right now.  I think that's why they are waiting as much as possible, until Week 4 at the earliest, because if his legs aren't there, he's going to regress from last year.  There's a play early in the Browns game where Flacco runs for a first, but the defense sold out for coverage, and pretty much covered the passing lanes.  That's one of those, if you can run, you beat us play calls.  Wilson saw a ton of those early last year, and decided to try and make the perfect throw.  However, if he can run consistently in those situations, then the defense has to change.  In this situation Sunday, the Browns LB turned around and chased the TE with his back to the ball.  If he stays facing the QB, the receiver out of the slot has a much better shot at getting open for an easy completion.  I think that's why they want to make sure Wilson is running at peak level before bringing him back, because otherwise teams are going to dare him to run in those situations.  If he can't, he reverts back to the early days last year, where he's making that difficult pass attempt as his only option.  

Exactly, this team isn't going anywhere with Flacco.  It lives or dies with a QB that has potential.  You put in Wilson to see if he is that franchise QB, and you develop timing with Moore/Wilson.  Those two are great route runners because they read the hips of the defenders to set up their stems, but they also need the QB to be on the same page, because they make take an extra step or so to make sure they can shake the CB.  If Wilson is the QB, great.  However, if Wilson is not the QB, they need to find out if that's the case. 

We see it with Tua.  They went all in on weapons to see if he's the one or not.  If he had failed this year, he would have been out.  Same with Josh Allen, they went out and got him Diggs to see if he's going to develop as a passer, and he did.  With QB contracts these days, paying top tier to a mid tier guy really sets your team back.  A good example being the Titans paying Tannehill, which kinda prevented them from paying Brown.  

We also saw this with Matt Ryan, who has been a mid tier guy for many years, but they can't build around him because he can't elevate the players, and they can't afford to sign all the guys.  Albeit, he's sucked this year, but we see the Colts be stuck in the middle.  Same with Carr now, top tier pay for mid tier play means you better find a litany of studs for cheap at other positions.  Russel Wilson last year with Seahawks or the reason why the 49ers were so adamant on moving to Lance this year.  They know to consistently compete, you need the QB to play at a top tier rate, or be cheap.  

I'm at least hoping Flacco raises his trade market for a late round pick maybe.  Say the Cowboys or someone need to tread water.  

Much to my surprise, this post wasn't written by @Sperm Edwards.

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2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Excellent post, but if you’re pinning your hopes on Wilson providing a rushing threat, don’t you have to consider the fact that he’s probably not going to survive if he runs the ball regularly? He had 29 carries last year and missed four games, then blows the knee up running by himself. I’d be extremely wary of having confidence in Zach if that confidence revolves around him not getting killed on scrambles.

Thanks.  I don't think it's the rushing attack per se, but him recognizing that he needed to run last year because his check down options were trash and covered.  Early on in the year, and throughout college, he looked for the deep pass, and locked in on those guys to see if they'd come open.  Hence, when Mike White came in, the defenses were so focused on the Jets' tape showing that the QB was just waiting for the deeper routes to open, the Bengals were caught off-guard.  They got dinked and dunked to death because Wilson wasn't taking those checkdowns consistently, and they based their scheme off that tape.  

Later in the year, Wilson wasn't forcing it as much, realizing that he needed to take what the defense gave him at times, especially with the trash that was out there as receivers.  So him recognizing that he could run up the middle was in a weird way, him understanding the basics of the system, that he's checking down to himself.  

As long as he's just Darnold/Baker/Rodgers/Herbert level mobile, it prevents the linebackers from keying in on receivers up the middle all the time, opening up those passing lanes.  I'm just not sure how confident he is with running right now, with his injury, which was why I think they want to make sure he's completely healthy.  One of those, if it's open space, run and slide type cases, so defenses don't abandon the middle and clog up passing lanes.  

2 hours ago, Matt39 said:

They knew Hackenberg was trash after his first practice. The Jets didn’t draft a QB there because their entire process has been wrong. The Cardinals are at least the team that did this right with Rosen and Kyler.

I'm not sure Bowles knew anything.  They didn't even work on his mechanics the one year he sat around.  His biggest issue was footwork, and they did absolutely nothing to fix it.  I honestly think Bowles was an idiot of a head coach.  He's fine as a DC, but an idiot at being a head coach and delegating responsibilities.  

Any other coach, who gets called out by Fitzpatrick publicly for being benched, AFTER a 6 INT game (in which, realistically could have been 11), cuts the player.  This idiot went back to him after Geno got hurt.  

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2 hours ago, slimjasi said:

Awesome post!

shots fired at tannehill tho @jgb

Lol, I live in TN.  Most of the fanbase would fire him into the sun at this point, if they could. Tannehill on a rookie or low level contract would be great asset.  Tannehill paid on franchise QB rates limits that team so much because he can't carry them.

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1 minute ago, win4ever said:

Thanks.  I don't think it's the rushing attack per se, but him recognizing that he needed to run last year because his check down options were trash and covered.  Early on in the year, and throughout college, he looked for the deep pass, and locked in on those guys to see if they'd come open.  Hence, when Mike White came in, the defenses were so focused on the Jets' tape showing that the QB was just waiting for the deeper routes to open, the Bengals were caught off-guard.  They got dinked and dunked to death because Wilson wasn't taking those checkdowns consistently, and they based their scheme off that tape.  

Later in the year, Wilson wasn't forcing it as much, realizing that he needed to take what the defense gave him at times, especially with the trash that was out there as receivers.  So him recognizing that he could run up the middle was in a weird way, him understanding the basics of the system, that he's checking down to himself.  

As long as he's just Darnold/Baker/Rodgers/Herbert level mobile, it prevents the linebackers from keying in on receivers up the middle all the time, opening up those passing lanes.  I'm just not sure how confident he is with running right now, with his injury, which was why I think they want to make sure he's completely healthy.  One of those, if it's open space, run and slide type cases, so defenses don't abandon the middle and clog up passing lanes.  

I'm not sure Bowles knew anything.  They didn't even work on his mechanics the one year he sat around.  His biggest issue was footwork, and they did absolutely nothing to fix it.  I honestly think Bowles was an idiot of a head coach.  He's fine as a DC, but an idiot at being a head coach and delegating responsibilities.  

Any other coach, who gets called out by Fitzpatrick publicly for being benched, AFTER a 6 INT game (in which, realistically could have been 11), cuts the player.  This idiot went back to him after Geno got hurt.  

You're about to earn the nickname "Lil Sperm".  Or maybe "SE II"

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19 minutes ago, win4ever said:

Thanks.  I don't think it's the rushing attack per se, but him recognizing that he needed to run last year because his check down options were trash and covered.  Early on in the year, and throughout college, he looked for the deep pass, and locked in on those guys to see if they'd come open.  Hence, when Mike White came in, the defenses were so focused on the Jets' tape showing that the QB was just waiting for the deeper routes to open, the Bengals were caught off-guard.  They got dinked and dunked to death because Wilson wasn't taking those checkdowns consistently, and they based their scheme off that tape.  

Later in the year, Wilson wasn't forcing it as much, realizing that he needed to take what the defense gave him at times, especially with the trash that was out there as receivers.  So him recognizing that he could run up the middle was in a weird way, him understanding the basics of the system, that he's checking down to himself.  

As long as he's just Darnold/Baker/Rodgers/Herbert level mobile, it prevents the linebackers from keying in on receivers up the middle all the time, opening up those passing lanes.  I'm just not sure how confident he is with running right now, with his injury, which was why I think they want to make sure he's completely healthy.  One of those, if it's open space, run and slide type cases, so defenses don't abandon the middle and clog up passing lanes.  

I'm not sure Bowles knew anything.  They didn't even work on his mechanics the one year he sat around.  His biggest issue was footwork, and they did absolutely nothing to fix it.  I honestly think Bowles was an idiot of a head coach.  He's fine as a DC, but an idiot at being a head coach and delegating responsibilities.  

Any other coach, who gets called out by Fitzpatrick publicly for being benched, AFTER a 6 INT game (in which, realistically could have been 11), cuts the player.  This idiot went back to him after Geno got hurt.  

We already knew by that point Fitz was much better than Geno though. They had already made the decision to move on from Geno once they drafted Hackenberg. Rehashing silly stuff here that doesn’t mean anything, but the Jets should draft more QB’s instead of kicking the can down the road when guys such as Sanchez, Geno, Petty, Hack, Darnold and maybe Wilson are clearly not the answer. The Jets if serious should be putting in endless hours studying the 2023 QB class.  

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13 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

We already knew by that point Fitz was much better than Geno though. They had already made the decision to move on from Geno once they drafted Hackenberg. Rehashing silly stuff here that doesn’t mean anything, but the Jets should draft more QB’s instead of kicking the can down the road when guys such as Sanchez, Geno, Petty, Hack, Darnold and maybe Wilson are clearly not the answer. 

Problem is you and most fans here have the patience of a gnat. Coaches and GM's can't just give up on a guy after seeing him for an hour, Sure Arz was lauded for what they did with Rosen but that's an anomaly rather than the rule.  What you view is clearly not the answer holds no weight thankfully with our coaches and GM's . 

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1 hour ago, oatmeal said:

To be honest, even if Flacco goes out and throws for 1000 yards next week and 59 TD’s Zach still needs to play when ready. 
 

A fluke wildcard run is not worth risking knowing if we have a franchise QB in Zach this year

 

this is just my opinion though 

just curious and this question isnt just for you but the rest for the "hate JD and hate saleh guys" ...

do you give them a pass if Zach busts and we win like 4 games since your willing to bench Flacco even if he has a great game next week? 

now they did draft him but if it could have been a wildcard run that you were willing to give up? 

 

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2 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Problem is you and most fans here have the patience of a gnat. Coaches and GM's can't just give up on a guy after seeing him for an hour, Sure Arz was lauded for what they did with Rosen but that's an anomaly rather than the rule.  What you view is clearly not the answer holds no weight thankfully with our coaches and GM's . 

We have the patience of a gnat because all of the QB’s we’ve had since Sanchez we held on to for too long. Sanchez is out of football. Geno has been a career backup and is leading the tank in Seattle (soon to be benched for Lock) Petty out of football, Hack out of football, Darnold terrible and trending towards out of the league and now Wilson whose resume is a bad rookie year and two knee injuries and the current one being indefinite. Quarterback at this current time is still a critical need for the Jets.

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Just now, Matt39 said:

We have the patience of a gnat because all of the QB’s we’ve had since Sanchez we held on to for too long. Sanchez is out of football. Geno has been a career backup and is leading the tank in Seattle (soon to be benched for Lock, Petty out of football, Hack out of football, Darnold terrible and trending towards our and now Wilson whose resume is a bad rookie year and two knee injuries and the current one being indefinite. Quarterback at this current time is still a critical need for the Jets.

Just because guys failed before him doesn't mean Zach is a failure. I get it , we all want a winning team and a FQB, but giving up on someone before they've gotten a true assessment of a player is foolish , and again I'm just glad the GM and coaches aren't this hair trigger sensitive. 

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1 hour ago, docdhc said:

What would be your plan?  Cut him, trade him for whatever you could get?  Never play him until out of playoff contention?  Do you think he may have any potential yet unrealized or after a rookie year with an awful supporting cast you can definitively say he’ll never be any good? It just doesn’t make sense to give up on a high draft choice with such little real game experience, especially when historically the biggest leap a player makes is between year 1 and 2

I honestly try to keep him off the field until Week Twelve against the Bears. I sit the quarterbacks down and tell them that the best player is gonna play, and Zach can re-take the field when he’s better than Joe Flacco. The Jets are fielding the 3rd ranked passing offense in the NFL right now, but are headed into a meat-grinder schedule, so it’s unlikely Flacco will keep up even a decent level of play, but you’d rather have the regression come with Flacco under center than have Zach go out against the Steelers, Dolphins, Pats (twice), Broncos, and Packers and get destroyed because it will give the appearance that he was the cause for the implosion. 

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8 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Just because guys failed before him doesn't mean Zach is a failure. I get it , we all want a winning team and a FQB, but giving up on someone before they've gotten a true assessment of a player is foolish , and again I'm just glad the GM and coaches aren't this hair trigger sensitive. 

How many starts is enough? Honest question. The mark used to be 19 starts. I think you guys underestimate how close Zach is to busting if Saleh screws this up, and he’s absolutely screwing it up

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

How many starts is enough? Honest question. The mark used to be 19 starts. I think you guys underestimate how close Zach is to busting if Saleh screws this up, and he’s absolutely screwing it up

I mean if it was such a concern for Wilson that he was going to be asked to play so soon or whatever he could have easily returned to BYU for another year. With the second pick comes expectations to produce right away. The bus shouldn’t be waiting for him. 

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12 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I mean if it was such a concern for Wilson that he was going to be asked to play so soon or whatever he could have easily returned to BYU for another year. With the second pick comes expectations to produce right away. The bus shouldn’t be waiting for him. 

It’s inevitable that he’s going to struggle @Steelers, and the Dolphins, then on the road in Denver and Green Bay. It’s going to be four straight rough, rough starts for him, and then what? Now they have 17 games of data saying that he sucks. Then they get Belichick twice sandwiched around the Bills. That’ll be twenty games of pure humiliation. If I was a Team Zach guy, I’m finding a doctor that’ll give him six to eight more weeks on the couch.

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7 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s inevitable that he’s going to struggle @Steelers, and the Dolphins, then on the road in Denver and Green Bay. It’s going to be four straight rough, rough starts for him, and then what? Now they have 17 games of data saying that he sucks. Then they get Belichick twice sandwiched around the Bills. That’ll be twenty games of pure humiliation. If I was a Team Zach guy, I’m finding a doctor that’ll give him six to eight more weeks on the couch.

If it’s this and it’s a mental hurdle that he’s not good enough then hopefully the Jets are in the know, because then they really need to go QB next season.

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10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s inevitable that he’s going to struggle @Steelers, and the Dolphins, then on the road in Denver and Green Bay. It’s going to be four straight rough, rough starts for him, and then what? 

LOL, ok Nostradamus 

 

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1 hour ago, Matt39 said:

We have the patience of a gnat because all of the QB’s we’ve had since Sanchez we held on to for too long. Sanchez is out of football. Geno has been a career backup and is leading the tank in Seattle (soon to be benched for Lock) Petty out of football, Hack out of football, Darnold terrible and trending towards out of the league and now Wilson whose resume is a bad rookie year and two knee injuries and the current one being indefinite. Quarterback at this current time is still a critical need for the Jets.

Cardinals didn't hesitate to cut bait on Rosen wtih Murray on the board. Now Murray may have issues, but the Big Picture is you keep trying to fill that spot until you get it right. Looks like they did so.  And if the Jets  have a similar chance next year to try again, via the draft or free agency, so be it. So far there's nothing in Wilson's sample size to say he's locked anything down here to preclude that.

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25 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

LOL, ok Nostradamus 

 

When he came back from injury last season, they ran a Pop Warner offense and he went 14-24 for 145 and a pick to a Texans team that finished one spot ahead of the Jets in the defensive rankings last year

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Just now, T0mShane said:

When he came back from injury last season, they ran a Pop Warner offense and he went 14-24 for 145 and a pick to a Texans team that finished one spot ahead of the Jets in the defensive rankings last year

Yes - last year. 2nd year <> rookie year. 

Btw, he also brought the Jets back from a double digit deficit in that game and made several critical plays down the stretch, including the winning TD and FG drives. 

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Yes - last year. 2nd year rookie year. 
Btw, he also brought the Jets back from a double digit deficit in that game and made several critical plays down the stretch, including the winning TD and FG drives. 


Heres the mistake you are all making. The team picks the quarterback. Not the coaches the fans or the front office. Saleh will be sealing his fate if he sits the QB the team has a better chance winning with.


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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

How many starts is enough? Honest question. The mark used to be 19 starts. I think you guys underestimate how close Zach is to busting if Saleh screws this up, and he’s absolutely screwing it up

I don't feel you can put a hard number on it.

Some of us knew what last year represented. It was a start from scratch with new coaches,  systems, rookies galore.  It was an indoctrination into the NFL and a building block for the future. The foundation has been laid, the systems in place, quality pieces have been added. It's time for the butterfly to emerge from the cocoon and take flight. 

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

How many starts is enough? Honest question. The mark used to be 19 starts. I think you guys underestimate how close Zach is to busting if Saleh screws this up, and he’s absolutely screwing it up

Where does 19 come from, out of curiosity?

I believe Tom Landry (or was it chuck knoll?) used to say that the guy had to be good by year 3. Parcells used to say 25 starts, I believe. I’ve argued 25-40, depending on the situation/team/overall potential. 
 

But note - even if it’s 19, that’s almost 50% more NFL starts than Zach Wilson has made. Think about that. 13 games, especially for a guy making the jump from a small school like BYU, is just a really small number. 

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5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Where does 19 come from, out of curiosity?

I believe Tom Landry (or was it chuck knoll?) used to say that the guy had to be good by year 3. Parcells used to say 25 starts, I believe. I’ve argued 25-40, depending on the situation/team/overall potential. 
 

But note - even if it’s 19, that’s almost 50% more NFL starts than Zach Wilson has made. Think about that. 13 games, especially for a guy making the jump from a small school like BYU, is just a really small number. 

I know Zach fans like to assert hope by pointing to Josh Allen coming on in Year Three. Highlighted are the performances by Allen in starts 14-20. Note: his receivers were rookie Dawson Knox, Zay Jones, and Isiah McKenzie. His running back was Frank Gore. Other than the Pats wipeout, Allen was already showing some promise by this point.

 

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Problem is you and most fans here have the patience of a gnat. Coaches and GM's can't just give up on a guy after seeing him for an hour, Sure Arz was lauded for what they did with Rosen but that's an anomaly rather than the rule.  What you view is clearly not the answer holds no weight thankfully with our coaches and GM's . 

The thing with Rosen is he wasn’t just a lousy rookie QB. He was a prick and apparently would routinely question those trying to coach him. Not in a “Please explain why to me, so that I may learn & thus become a better QB,” way; but rather in a “Pfft, that sounds ****ing stupid — and you’re stupid, Stupid,” way.

Coaching change the next year, but if fans heard it, you can bet the new regime heard it, too. Plus they had the #1 pick ffs, with a QB the clear #1 pick, plus offers from multiple teams to take him off their hands for a still-solid day 2 pick.

Ultimately, they just didn’t like him, and his attitude made him seem less coachable, whether they felt he had the tools or not.

I’d still give it up for them, though. It looks like a much simpler, easier move in hindsight. But it took some big balls to do it at that time. They probably had a pretty significant accelerated cap hit, too, since most of the $ in those high picks’ contracts are in signing bonus form. If their reputation would get destroyed, had it not worked out, you have to give them credit for doing it & being right. Good for them.

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