Poll: Has the Flacco delusion surpassed the Streveler Delusion?

[Warfish]

21 minutes ago, nj meadowlands said:

There is overwhelming evidence on this message board to the contrary.

Again, I would not agree with that.

This is a constant issue with Zach "lovers" who cannot differentiate the differences between evaluation, projection and rooting interest, none of which are the same thing.

1. Evaluation (of what has already happened)

2. Projection (of what we think will happen)

3. Hope (of what we hope/want to happen)

Zach "Haters" generally:

1. Evaluate Zach as having played very poorly, and not having been ready to start when he did.  They also evaluate him as fragile, given how much time he's missed in two years due to injury. 

(Most Zach "lovers" have now come around to this as well now.)

2. Project Zach as a likely bust, based on what we've seen so far, and the general odds against any truly bad rookie QB having a Manning-like turnaround. 

(Zach "lovers" disagree, and often cherry pick the exceptions as evidence Zach will be great still.  Zach "lovers" also value winning games much less than "seeing what we got" in Zach, to the point of supporting sacrifice of entire seasons to reach that goal).

3. But we all hope he can be what we drafted him to be.  Because ultimately, what most Zach "haters" want more than anything is to start winning games again. 

Zach "lovers" want the same.....as long as it is Zach and only Zach who is leading the winning.  Wins under anyone else are dismissed as meaningless or pointless or worse (We have several fans here of the "If no Super Bowl, we should lose every game" mindset).

So Zach "haters" are just not wedded to it being only Zach, or that entire seasons need be wasted to "find out what we have" the way Zach "lovers" do, or "Sam lovers" did, or "Geno lovers" did, or "Sanchez lovers" did.....    

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

The common denominator is both delusions are fueled by pro-Zach Wilson paranoiacs who don’t want to deal with the fact that Zach sucks. 

Yet for all those annoying pro-Zach Wilson paranoiacs we can count on Mr. Shane, not one of those paranoiacs to bring ZWs name into the conversation 

Odd. 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 hour ago, Kolchak said:

Seriously, I'm not done with  the James Morgan is an NFL QB delusion.  I haven't gotten to Flacco or Streveler yet.

If they just gave Hack ONE snap!!! 

[RSJ]

Imagine the delusion if Zach had a game like Flacco just had.


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[slats]

19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I disagree.  The Jets should play whomever will give them the best chance to win that game.

Winning > All Else, including some amorphous concept of what is good for "the future".

And I disagree in turn. Individual wins in a year where Vegas has you at 5.5 are irrelevant to the bigger picture of creating sustainable success. If Zach proves to be the guy, you have your answer. If he doesn’t, then they’ll need to do something significant at the QB position next year because the answer is not otherwise on the roster. 
 
I’d also suggest that the current regime agrees with me in this regard. They’re trying to build for the long haul, not to get you to buy a Flacco jersey this year. Saleh’s probably a little hungrier for short term wins than JD, but it’s the big picture that they’re both looking at. 

[RSJ]

And I disagree in turn. Individual wins in a year where Vegas has you at 5.5 are irrelevant to the bigger picture of creating sustainable success. If Zach proves to be the guy, you have your answer. If he doesn’t, then they’ll need to do something significant at the QB position next year because the answer is not otherwise on the roster. 
 
I’d also suggest that the current regime agrees with me in this regard. They’re trying to build for the long haul, not to get you to buy a Flacco jersey this year. Saleh’s probably a little hungrier for short term wins than JD, but it’s the big picture that they’re both looking at. 

No such thing as long haul. Thats a PR ploy to get you to buy tickets while the team isnt very good. This team is good on paper right now. The only thing that could screw it up is a QB like Wilson who isnt good at all.


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[Biggs]

11 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Beliefs aren't backed up with words like absolute bust , guarantee bust , seen all the evidence . There are some here who flat out want their negative opinions of Zach to come true. 

Everyone wants him to do well.  Im hopeful he doesn't develop hemorrhoids riding the bench that forces him to miss another 6 to 10 weeks     

[Jet Nut]

Just now, RSJ said:

 

No such thing as long haul. Thats a PR ploy to get you to buy tickets while the team isnt very good. This team is good on paper right now. The only thing that could screw it up is a QB like Wilson who isnt good at all.


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PR ploy?  
That’s what you think teams who without a FQB are doing when they scrounge for a FQB?  Because this team has had a history of having a hard time selling tickets? 

[nj meadowlands]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Again, I would not agree with that.

This is a constant issue with Zach "lovers" who cannot differentiate the differences between evaluation, projection and rooting interest, none of which are the same thing.

1. Evaluation (of what has already happened)

2. Projection (of what we think will happen)

3. Hope (of what we hope/want to happen)

Zach "Haters" generally:

1. Evaluate Zach as having played very poorly, and not having been ready to start when he did.  They also evaluate him as fragile, given how much time he's missed in two years due to injury. 

(Most Zach "lovers" have now come around to this as well now.)

2. Project Zach as a likely bust, based on what we've seen so far, and the general odds against any truly bad rookie QB having a Manning-like turnaround. 

(Zach "lovers" disagree, and often cherry pick the exceptions as evidence Zach will be great still.  Zach "lovers" also value winning games much less than "seeing what we got" in Zach, to the point of supporting sacrifice of entire seasons to reach that goal).

3. But we all hope he can be what we drafted him to be.  Because ultimately, what most Zach "haters" want more than anything is to start winning games again. 

Zach "lovers" want the same.....as long as it is Zach and only Zach who is leading the winning.  Wins under anyone else are dismissed as meaningless or pointless or worse.

So Zach "haters" are just not wedding to it being only Zach, or that entire seasons need be wasted to "find out what we have" the way Zach "lovers" do, or "Sam lovers" did, or "Geno lovers" did, or "Sanchez lovers" did.....    

As a "non-Zach-lover" and "non-Zach-hater" myself, I think you are overcomplicating things.

Sure, this probably describes the view of a healthy majority of people here, like myself, who couldn't care less whether Zach Wilson, Browning Nagle, or Taylor Swift are playing QB for the Jets, as long as we win a Super Bowl one day. However, as has happened with respect to hundreds of topics on this and many other message boards in the past, certain people (in this case, certain very vocal people) have latched onto their narratives at the expense of their own neutrality.  You can't tell me that reacting giddily to Wilson crumbling on the turf with a knee injury is indicative of some sort of neutral, kumbaya stance. Give me a break.

[doitny]

26 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I disagree.  The Jets should play whomever will give them the best chance to win that game.

Winning > All Else, including some amorphous concept of what is good for "the future".

If Zach is the best player at his position and has shown that to the coaches, then he should play.  If not, he should not.  

At current, yes, I would agree.

I believe that is what we're all rooting for, Zach "Lovers" and Zach "Haters" both.

IMO Zach "lovers" think there is a disagreement here that does not exist.  We all want Zach to play like a HOF'er. 

Some simply want to see it first before giving him praise for it.  Faith vs. evidence.  Fans like me do not have faith in Zach, we want to see evidence Zach is great.  

Wait, so your support for Zach is conditional?  If the Jets "go another direction" officially at any point, then you no longer support Zach?

So for example, then, if Saleh announced today that Flacco is his QB for the rest of 2022, you would then support Flacco and no longer support Zach because the team "went in another direction" officially?

We should all be happy for the reckoning to come, because it should effectively answer your "see what we have in Zach" question, one way or the other.  

i love this post. i think you nail the bold right on the head.

last year Zach sucked. but his fans tell me it doesnt count. yet 3 other QBs in very limited time outplayed him.

he sucked in his short preseason. again i got to not count that even though every other QB looked better.

but i cant forget what i seen. no human can. now i seen 2 weeks of Flacco which was much better than anything we seen of Zach. of course most of us are not looking forward to that. 

and why does he have to start right now? are they afraid if Flacco stays in that he will keep raising the bar? or does he really need 14 weeks to show us something . like he is going to suck for 10 games and then start to look good? 

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, Kolchak said:

Seriously, I'm not done with  the James Morgan is an NFL QB delusion.  I haven't gotten to Flacco or Streveler yet.

 

 

[RSJ]

PR ploy?  
That’s what you think teams who without a FQB are doing when they scrounge for a FQB?  Because this team has had a history of having a hard time selling tickets? 

Maybe those team are just misguided all together. What makes a franchise QB? Is it winning? Stats? Because I see lots of different QBs making the playoffs and SB that dont put up great stats and I see lots of QBs that put up great stats that dont win. Like I said in earlier threads franchise QB is a term no one can really define because its ridiculous.


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[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, doitny said:

 

he sucked in his short preseason. again i got to not count that even though every other QB looked better.

Didn't Flacco throw a pick six in one of his only preseason drives? LOL

I don't think 5 preseason passes means very much either way. 

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, slats said:

And I disagree in turn. Individual wins in a year where Vegas has you at 5.5 are irrelevant to the bigger picture of creating sustainable success.

Aye, as noted above, when take to it's logical conclusion, this is the "it's better to go 0-16 every year, till the year we're ready to win a Super Bowl" mindset. 

A mindset no shortage of fans here at JN espouse somewhat regularly.  

11 minutes ago, slats said:

If Zach proves to be the guy, you have your answer.

Except you and I both know that almost no matter how Zach plays this year, a material portion of our JN Community will aggressively claim that "you cannot judge a QB on only two years", and that "we must have Zach start all of 2023, so we can know what we have in Zach", and that anyone who wants another QB brought in is just a "Zach hater", etc, etc.

This isn't the first go-round with this.  We've seen this all before, repeatedly.  

11 minutes ago, slats said:

If he doesn’t, then they’ll need to do something significant at the QB position next year because the answer is not otherwise on the roster.

Unless Zach is an all-pro in 2022, they likely need to "do something at the QB position" next year regardless.  

11 minutes ago, slats said:

I’d also suggest that the current regime agrees with me in this regard. They’re trying to build for the long haul, not to get you to buy a Flacco jersey this year. Saleh’s probably a little hungrier for short term wins than JD, but it’s the big picture that they’re both looking at. 

You will never get to "long terms success" without getting to "short term success" first.  Keep that in mind.

[56mehl56]

4 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Everyone wants him to do well.  Im hopeful he doesn't develop hemorrhoids riding the bench that forces him to miss another 6 to 10 weeks     

I truly don't believe that , i feel there are some here who would rather be right on their opinions then see Zach succeed. They get a bigger thrill out of stirring sh*t and patting themselves on the back if proven right, then the joy they take from the Jets winning.

[TuscanyTile2]

@Maxman

 

[k-met57]

We just went through this with Mike White. I am old enough to remember when he was elite…until he wasn’t the following week lol

Flacco is going to lay an egg this week, and this will all be over.

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, nj meadowlands said:

As a "non-Zach-lover" and "non-Zach-hater" myself, I think you are overcomplicating things.

Sure, this probably describes the view of a healthy majority of people here, like myself, who couldn't care less whether Zach Wilson, Browning Nagle, or Taylor Swift are playing QB for the Jets, as long as we win a Super Bowl one day. However, as has happened with respect to hundreds of topics on this and many other message boards in the past, certain people (in this case, certain very vocal people) have latched onto their narratives at the expense of their own neutrality.  You can't tell me that reacting giddily to Wilson crumbling on the turf with a knee injury is indicative of some sort of neutral, kumbaya stance. Give me a break.

There is no shortage of extremism and hyperbole in what gets posted at JN, on both sides.  Of every issue.

And I'll say this, as one many claim is a "Zach hater".......anyone who "was giddy" seeing "Zach Wilson crumbling to the turf" with what at the time looked like a very serious ACL-type injury.....deserved a punch in the nose.

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Both delusions are the product of Zach haters, many like yourself (and now lead by yourself) who never liked him, and absolutely refuse to even give him a chance.
 
The reality of the situation is that the former #2 pick with his $35M guaranteed needs to play so that they can make the determination whether he’s going to be the guy going forward or not. The best case scenario for the Jets is that Wilson is that guy. So that’s what I’m rooting for unless or until they make the decision to go in another direction. And that has nothing to do with my current opinion on his level of play so far. It appears that JD has provided the offense with weapons, so now it’s gonna be make or break for Zach. If you’re so convinced that he sucks, you should be happy for the reckoning that’s on its way. You’ll be in a position to bask in glory. 

^ Damn good post. 

If he sucks, we draft another one next year. And there is evidence for camp "he sucks" - they're not irrational. 

But he gets this year. I hope he takes the jump. 

Hell if he's that bad, we'll need a high pick to draft his replacement, so we might as well keep him out there ?.

[TuscanyTile2]

4 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

We just went through this with Mike White. I am old enough to remember when he was elite…until he wasn’t the following week lol

Flacco is going to lay an egg this week, and this will all be over.

Was???

[Barry McCockinner]

Flacco is on pace for a 5236 yard 43TD/9INT season. Honestly, would be a higher projection if Wilson didn't drop 10 passes a game.

sarcasm

[TuscanyTile2]

1 minute ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Flacco is on pace for a 5236 yard 43TD/9INT season.sarcasm

He still stinks.

[FTL Jet Fan]

[derp]

1 hour ago, slats said:

Both delusions are the product of Zach haters, many like yourself (and now lead by yourself) who never liked him, and absolutely refuse to even give him a chance.
 
The reality of the situation is that the former #2 pick with his $35M guaranteed needs to play so that they can make the determination whether he’s going to be the guy going forward or not. The best case scenario for the Jets is that Wilson is that guy. So that’s what I’m rooting for unless or until they make the decision to go in another direction. And that has nothing to do with my current opinion on his level of play so far. It appears that JD has provided the offense with weapons, so now it’s gonna be make or break for Zach. If you’re so convinced that he sucks, you should be happy for the reckoning that’s on its way. You’ll be in a position to bask in glory. 

I think there is, to an extent, a divide between those who think that it's important to find the franchise QB and then build versus those who think it's important to build and then find the franchise QB. And I'd add that those who think it's important to find the franchise QB then build underrate the importance of competent QB play for developing younger players - or perhaps overrate the ability of young players to develop absent competent QB play.

I'd love Wilson to be the guy. He hasn't shown it, yet. Hopefully he's better than Joe Flacco and this is all moot. If he's meaningfully worse than Flacco - somewhere around the level he was last year - I'd rather head into next offseason with it looking like the Jets have two young WR's who can get open at will, a two headed monster at RB, and league average ish TE and OL play than risk having no answers about the other talented young players on the offense to just be really sure that the QB who has been a bottom of the league level player isn't going to have the light go on for him in a way it hasn't gone on after the second year for many guys recently.

On other thought I'll layer in. The rookie QB contract is the time to build a really good team. That's evidently what the Jets tried to do this year. The financial flexibility you get from paying a guy $10M versus $30-40M is a big deal. To that point, I often think about Jared Goff and Carson Wentz. Two guys who are now probably in the 20-25 range of QB starters in the league, but who went 1-2 in the draft and had their teams build loaded rosters around them. Those guys each looked like superstars at a point, because of the awesome rosters their franchises were able to build around them when they were on rookie deals, and got paid accordingly. Once they got paid, it turned out those were guys you can win with instead of win because of, and things absolutely fell apart. They're still hanging around because they're not that bad, but they're not franchise quarterbacks. And they looked elite for a period.

A little long winded but I think worth making the point: I think Wilson has to look pretty good, way way above what he was last year, to justify feeling that you can triple or quadruple his salary and still build a Super Bowl contender around him. Like, "is this guy a top ten QB in the league?" level play. I'm not saying he can't do that, but I genuinely think that has to be the bar. And I can foresee a situation where he gets to average to below average and the folks who love Wilson are talking about him taking strides and improving - but I think based on what we've seen in the league the bar needs to be pretty high. Because they'll have a pretty short window to make this young talent work, and a QB on a rookie deal is the only way to make that happen shy of having a Mahomes/Allen level superstar. 

To be clear, I absolutely prefer the Wilson is a franchise QB approach. But I think the bar has to be high, and the development of other players on the team shouldn't be discounted.

[doitny]

20 minutes ago, slats said:

And I disagree in turn. Individual wins in a year where Vegas has you at 5.5 are irrelevant to the bigger picture of creating sustainable success. If Zach proves to be the guy, you have your answer. If he doesn’t, then they’ll need to do something significant at the QB position next year because the answer is not otherwise on the roster. 
 
I’d also suggest that the current regime agrees with me in this regard. They’re trying to build for the long haul, not to get you to buy a Flacco jersey this year. Saleh’s probably a little hungrier for short term wins than JD, but it’s the big picture that they’re both looking at. 

you bench a hot Flacco that just beat the Bengals or if he gets the Steelers and is 2-2 and go to Zach and he sucks there both gone. they better get Woodys ok to make sure they still have jobs left if that happens. 

it was one thing to start Zach from day 1 and think Flacco is just some old man. but if we go 2-1 or 2-2 that changes. Woody might be thinking like some of us and would like to see how far Flacco can go. at 2-2 might be thinking playoffs.  Zach has 2 years maybe 3 under contract. Woody might just take a playoff run this year and some wins and wait until next year to see about Zach.

we dont matter. the Jets dont mater. only making the boss happy matters. Woody just might like winning and good QB play. i know i do, and thats what Flacco is doing right now. Zach MAYBE can do that.......... maybe

 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I believe that is what we're all rooting for, Zach "Lovers" and Zach "Haters" both.

IMO Zach "lovers" think there is a disagreement here that does not exist.  We all want Zach to play like a HOF'er. 

Some simply want to see it first before giving him praise for it.  Faith vs. evidence.  Fans like me do not have faith in Zach, we want to see evidence Zach is great.  

I have to disagree with this take.

There are people here that clearly take pleasure when Zach fails and I have no doubt (literally ZERO) that they are actively rooting against him.

I know you're going to say that's not true (and I'm not saying you're one of them) but this blanket statement that everyone wants him to succeed, I do not believe in the slightest. 

They will never admit, but I am 100% certain - there are people that are sitting at home watching games and happy when he fails and upset when he does things well.

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

Flacco is going to lay an egg this week, and this will all be over.

Is that what you are rooting to have happen?

Because if you had written "Wilson is going to lay an egg his first week back", you can be assured the Zach "lovers" here would be claiming that you were actively rooting for that outcome.

[doitny]

22 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Didn't Flacco throw a pick six in one of his only preseason drives? LOL

I don't think 5 preseason passes means very much either way. 

he also had a nice 1st drive that got killed by Carters fumble. Zach didnt put a drive like that.

but thats fair. it is preseason. but last year Zach was really good in it. its what you see as @Warfish said as opposed to faith

[doitny]

19 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Was???

you just gave @T0mShane a Woody

[JetsFanatic]

I’m not sure what’s delusional about Flacco.  We had an exciting victory which he played a nice game. Can we enjoy it a bit?

[TuscanyTile2]

4 minutes ago, doitny said:

you just gave @T0mShane a Woody

A Woody Johnson

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

I’m not sure what’s delusional about Flacco.  We had an exciting victory which he played a nice game. Can we enjoy it a bit?

No!

[TuscanyTile2]

I think "The Streveler Delusion" would make for an excellent Sci-Fi movie title.

[Barry McCockinner]

2 minutes ago, JetsFanatic said:

I’m not sure what’s delusional about Flacco.  We had an exciting victory which he played a nice game. Can we enjoy it a bit?

No, you have to feel bad about this because of how we won and because it wasn't Zach Wilson at QB. Also, Garrett Wilson dropped 15 passes.

[Warfish]

15 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I have to disagree with this take.

There are people here that clearly take pleasure when Zach fails and I have no doubt (literally ZERO) that they are actively rooting against him.

I know you're going to say that's not true (and I'm not saying you're one of them) but this blanket statement that everyone wants him to succeed, I do not believe in the slightest. 

They will never admit, but I am 100% certain - there are people that are sitting at home watching games and happy when he fails and upset when he does things well.

I think we need to differentiate between the vast majority, and the one off or the troll.

For any opinion, we likely have someone here who will espouse it.  Including rooting against Zach,

Or, right now, rooting against Flacco.

But the vast bulk of people here decried as "Zach haters" are not rooting against Zach.  

As has been said repeatedly, we have some Jets Fans who take out their disappointments on the Jets themselves, via criticism and analysis.

And we have some Jets fans who take out their disappointments on other Jets fans for not being as pro-Wilson, or Pro-"seeing what we got", or "pro-losing for draft picks" or whatever as they are, as if that were the root cause of the disappointing outcome. 

As if it were our fault Wilson played poorly, or got hurt.  This entire debate is just more of the same.

We do not decide how much time Zach gets, nor does anything we say here matters.  Folks should keep that in mind.  We don't have to "give him a chance" or "give him more time", because we don't make that call.