Poll: Has the Flacco delusion surpassed the Streveler Delusion?

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

Sadfan is sad...

That used to be you @FidelioJet now you're all happy and rational and sh*t... wtf man 

?

 

[Lurker89]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

@FidelioJet

 

[faba]

Do not get super excited over Flacco 37 and not mobile is not a good long term combo  

[SickJetFan]

7 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Has the Flacco delusion surpassed the Streveler Delusion?

Please leave the HOF'er out of this thread. 

Im not sure I even know what this means..I didn't think anyone had delusion of Stev or Flacco being #1 for season, I thought it was more about keeping on team as back ups and not cutting them.

[BornJetsFan1983]

flacco didnt suck against nfl players. Strev never play against nfl players.

[TuscanyTile2]

11 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

Im not sure I even know what this means..I didn't think anyone had delusion of Stev or Flacco being #1 for season, I thought it was more about keeping on team as back ups and not cutting them.

Don't play games with me, Mr. Smart Guy.  You know exactly what I mean! 

[SickJetFan]

6 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Don't play games with me, Mr. Smart Guy.  You know exactly what I mean! 

im not seriously....people tho Stev was going to be #1 QB and replace Zach for good? ditto Flacco?

is that what this thread means?

 

 

[FidelioJet]

43 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

 

@FidelioJet

 

Wait until the season starts. I’ll be back!

[k-met57]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

You're right, we don't agree.  But we're doing so civilly, and that's cool.

IMO It's Kibble THEN Steak, not Kibble OR Steak.

IMO There are no instant fixes, no shortcuts, no instant solutions.  There is no jumping directly from 4-13 to 12-5 and a Title.  Not even with a good drafted QB.

Every team must work hard and build to get to decent before they get to elite/consistently good.

Some fans have reached a nadir of "all or nothing, bet it all on the QB, and lose out otherwise", and it's just not a route to success.  It's also not very fun.  Winning is fun.  And fun matters too.  Life is too short.

Wins matter, every win matters.  There is no "meaningless wins".  

IMO this is the difference between financial planning, and waiting to win the lottery.

Continually successful teams financially plan.  Loser teams, like us, just wait to the lottery, with about equivalent odds.

Hell, half our last few drafted QB's had no chance, even if they weren't busts themselves, given how little support they had around them.

I don't know, if I had all the solutions, I'd be an NFL GM with a ring.

I'm just suck of sucking, sick of being the joke team in the NFL, sick of Sundays not being fun.  No amount of "just keep waiting, the golden future is almost here" will convince me at this point.  Show me, don't tell me.

 

there is a long list of teams that have done this very thing....starting with the Bengals.

the flaw with your argument is that it is kibble or steak, because sitting Wilson stunts his development, impacts his confidence, and standing with the team. he needs to fail, the jets cant just let him rot on the bench while they roll with joe flacco and expect to have him start next year.

[Jetluv58]

9 hours ago, Untouchable said:

Flacco is a Super Bowl winning QB and 14 year vet who has shown plenty in the past and present.

Streveler has never, and will never, accomplish dick in the NFL.

And if not given the chance, we’ll never really know. 

[Untouchable]

1 minute ago, Jetluv58 said:

And if not given the chance, we’ll never really know. 

We already know

Damn near every team in the league has some 3rd string/practice squad QB who shines against future accountants and salesmen in the pre-season.

This is nothing new.

It’s not even like Streveler is some fresh out of college 22 year old either. The dude is pushing 30 and has primarily been a backup in the CFL.

There’s no Cinderella story to be unearthed here.

[Warfish]

3 hours ago, k-met57 said:

there is a long list of teams that have done this very thing....starting with the Bengals.

For something there is a "long list" of, everyone seems to cite only the Bengals.

Yes, they went from 2-14 to 4-11-1 to 10-7 and a lucky SB appearance.  

Mostly on the back of a QB who put up 70%, 4,600 yards and 34 TD's in his second year.

Do you think Zach is a 70%, 4,600 yard, 34 TD, put the team on his back type of guy this year?

3 hours ago, k-met57 said:

the flaw with your argument is that it is kibble or steak, because sitting Wilson stunts his development

I would argue it's perhaps the best possible thing for his development. 

To watch, and learn.  He was clearly unready last year, now he's hurt, again.

Sitting a while, and learning how it's done, while getting healthy, may be the best way to salvage his potential, long term.

3 hours ago, k-met57 said:

, impacts his confidence,

If he's that weak, mentally, he was never the Man to start with.

3 hours ago, k-met57 said:

and standing with the team.

All the Team cares about is winning.

Be assured, if Zach is put back as starter and materially underperforms Flacco, the Team will hate him for it.  

3 hours ago, k-met57 said:

he needs to fail, the jets cant just let him rot on the bench while they roll with joe flacco and expect to have him start next year.

We have three more years of control after this season.  There is literally no rush, except for that which fans create.

[Dunnie]

We already know
Damn near every team in the league has some 3rd string/practice squad QB who shines against future accountants and salesmen in the pre-season.
This is nothing new.
It’s not even like Streveler is some fresh out of college 22 year old either. The dude is pushing 30 and has primarily been a backup in the CFL.
There’s no Cinderella story to be unearthed here.

... but have you heard? Strev ages backwards... and his birthday candles blow themselves out when he approaches.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Hal N of Provo]

20 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 

Do you think Zach is a 70%, 4,600 yard, 34 TD, put the team on his back type of guy this year?

 

 

Or if not this year, by next year with what he learns this year.  
 

Strev is the better bet?  Or the old guy? Or the one who throws a pick every 16 attempts?
 

This will work itself out soon anyway.  

[neckdemon]

20 hours ago, T0mShane said:

The common denominator is both delusions are fueled by pro-Zach Wilson paranoiacs who don’t want to deal with the fact that Zach sucks. 

crazy part is after zach comes in and continues to blow balls.... 10 years from now there will still be people claiming zach was gonna be great and was just the victim of poor coaching and not given a proper chance

[Doggin94it]

20 hours ago, T0mShane said:

A series of veteran washouts have come in and, to a man, run this offense better than the injury-riddled second overall pick in the draft. A CFL backup came in and ran this offense better than the injury-riddled second overall pick in the draft. Real Jets fans turn on and mock the veterans and the CFL backup instead of confronting the fact that the injury-riddled second overall pick in the draft has been the worst performing quarterback on the roster. 

Wait wait wait wait. 

You're telling me that veteran QBs ran an NFL offense better than a rookie? 

No. Way. 

[Doggin94it]

10 hours ago, Untouchable said:

We already know

Damn near every team in the league has some 3rd string/practice squad QB who shines against future accountants and salesmen in the pre-season.

This is nothing new.

It’s not even like Streveler is some fresh out of college 22 year old either. The dude is pushing 30 and has primarily been a backup in the CFL.

There’s no Cinderella story to be unearthed here.

I mean, you could've said the same thing about Kurt Warner back in the day. 

Which makes sense, because the thing that made the Warner story so amazing was how ridiculously rare that outcome was. 

So... it's not impossible that there's a Cinderella story there, but it's completely insane to think one is likely

[Doggin94it]

8 hours ago, Warfish said:

For something there is a "long list" of, everyone seems to cite only the Bengals.

Yes, they went from 2-14 to 4-11-1 to 10-7 and a lucky SB appearance.  

Mostly on the back of a QB who put up 70%, 4,600 yards and 34 TD's in his second year.

Do you think Zach is a 70%, 4,600 yard, 34 TD, put the team on his back type of guy this year?

I would argue it's perhaps the best possible thing for his development. 

To watch, and learn.  He was clearly unready last year, now he's hurt, again.

Sitting a while, and learning how it's done, while getting healthy, may be the best way to salvage his potential, long term.

If he's that weak, mentally, he was never the Man to start with.

All the Team cares about is winning.

Be assured, if Zach is put back as starter and materially underperforms Flacco, the Team will hate him for it.  

We have three more years of control after this season.  There is literally no rush, except for that which fans create.

Re the bold - absolutely not. But he can be a 62-64%, 24-26 TD, 3,400 yd (i.e better than 240yd/1.5 TD/gm) QB this year. More importantly, with these weapons and this OL, he should be that, and if he isn't the team needs to be prepared to move on from him next year. (Depending on how far short of it he falls and how he looks at the end of the season that's anything from bringing in a Garappolo type as legit camp competition to completely cutting bait) 

Re the italics, if I thought there was anything meaningful for him to gain from sitting and watching at this point I would agree with you. But I don't see what that could be. He's had the opportunity to watch two more experienced veterans show how this offense can look if he takes what's there rather than forcing deep throws and playing hero ball. He's had more than a year to watch the speed of the NFL game and even start to experience it. At this point, he should be able to take what he has seen and transfer it to the field. 

[Irish Jet]

28 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Re the bold - absolutely not. But he can be a 62-64%, 24-26 TD, 3,400 yd (i.e better than 240yd/1.5 TD/gm) QB this year. More importantly, with these weapons and this OL, he should be that, and if he isn't the team needs to be prepared to move on from him next year. (Depending on how far short of it he falls and how he looks at the end of the season that's anything from bringing in a Garappolo type as legit camp competition to completely cutting bait) 

Re the italics, if I thought there was anything meaningful for him to gain from sitting and watching at this point I would agree with you. But I don't see what that could be. He's had the opportunity to watch two more experienced veterans show how this offense can look if he takes what's there rather than forcing deep throws and playing hero ball. He's had more than a year to watch the speed of the NFL game and even start to experience it. At this point, he should be able to take what he has seen and transfer it to the field. 

If Flacco keeps up this level of play and Zach comes in and sh*t the bed you risk losing the entire locker room and Saleh will be pretty much done.

I don’t think it will take Flacco long to regress to his level but if he keeps playing like he did vs Cleveland and we’re winning games going back to Zach presents a huge risk for the staff. 

[Bugg]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

Re the bold - absolutely not. But he can be a 62-64%, 24-26 TD, 3,400 yd (i.e better than 240yd/1.5 TD/gm) QB this year. More importantly, with these weapons and this OL, he should be that, and if he isn't the team needs to be prepared to move on from him next year. (Depending on how far short of it he falls and how he looks at the end of the season that's anything from bringing in a Garappolo type as legit camp competition to completely cutting bait) 

Re the italics, if I thought there was anything meaningful for him to gain from sitting and watching at this point I would agree with you. But I don't see what that could be. He's had the opportunity to watch two more experienced veterans show how this offense can look if he takes what's there rather than forcing deep throws and playing hero ball. He's had more than a year to watch the speed of the NFL game and even start to experience it. At this point, he should be able to take what he has seen and transfer it to the field. 

This thought he will learn anything by sitting is simply unfounded. This is year 2. At some point when Flacco falters or get hurt, Saleh is gonna throw him in the deep end of the pool and see what Wilson can or cannot do. And the differenc this year is there is good NFL talent all around this offense. Not overstating; if a QB cannot make good use of Garrett Wilson, he has no business being on the field. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

Wait wait wait wait. 

You're telling me that veteran QBs ran an NFL offense better than a rookie? 

No. Way. 

Josh Johnson is a QB4 who has been on something like 13 teams in the last 12 years, several of those not even NFL teams.  

Zach Wilson is a # 2 overall pick.

Zach should be decidedly better than Josh Johnson.  It should not be the exact opposite no matter how much experience Johnson has had in the league.  

Also, Mike White was making his first career start when he threw for 400+ in a win.  And according to the "WE GOTTA SEE WHAT WE HAVE" crowd it doesn't matter how long he's been in the league since we hadn't seen him in game action yet.

[56mehl56]

24 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Josh Johnson is a QB4 who has been on something like 13 teams in the last 12 years, several of those not even NFL teams.  

Zach Wilson is a # 2 overall pick.

Zach should be decidedly better than Josh Johnson.  It should not be the exact opposite no matter how much experience Johnson has had in the league.  

Also, Mike White was making his first career start when he threw for 400+ in a win.  And according to the "WE GOTTA SEE WHAT WE HAVE" crowd it doesn't matter how long he's been in the league since we hadn't seen him in game action yet.

Cooper Rush just beat the Bengals on Sunday , is he better than Dak Prescott ? 

[T0mShane]

5 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

Wait wait wait wait. 

You're telling me that veteran QBs ran an NFL offense better than a rookie? 

No. Way. 

Yea, but every “veteran” QB? 

[Doggin94it]

57 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Josh Johnson is a QB4 who has been on something like 13 teams in the last 12 years, several of those not even NFL teams.  

Zach Wilson is a # 2 overall pick.

Zach should be decidedly better than Josh Johnson.  It should not be the exact opposite no matter how much experience Johnson has had in the league.  

Also, Mike White was making his first career start when he threw for 400+ in a win.  And according to the "WE GOTTA SEE WHAT WE HAVE" crowd it doesn't matter how long he's been in the league since we hadn't seen him in game action yet.

Strong disagree. Wilson should have better arm-talent than Josh Johnson, and higher upside. He should not walk in the door able to pick up an NFL offense as quickly as a 13 year vet or as familiar with NFL defenses and the speed of the game as a 13 year vet. Experience does actually matter for stuff like that.

Year 2 in the same offense? No, he shouldn't be behind those guys on "running the offense". Year 1? Absolutely he should be. 

[Doggin94it]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Yea, but every “veteran” QB? 

Every one with any meaningful experience learning an NFL system and knowing NFL defenses, yes. Nobody ever suggested that Mike White's problem (or Johnson's, or Flacco's) was between the ears.

Rookies are supposed to process things slower than vets; they don't have the mental muscle memory to do it quick and it's why getting them game experience is so important. But this fan base was so burnt by Darnold - who started out processing slow and then kept processing slow - that the baseline spooks us.

[Jetsfan80]

41 minutes ago, Doggin94it said:

Every one with any meaningful experience learning an NFL system and knowing NFL defenses, yes.

So if Jay Cutler had suddenly come out of retirement and performed better than Wilson, that wouldn't have concerned you?  How about Matt Hasselbeck?  Trent Dilfer?  He just gets a built-in excuse and free pass for looking like garbage in an otherwise competent offense?

[T0mShane]

2 hours ago, Doggin94it said:

Every one with any meaningful experience learning an NFL system and knowing NFL defenses, yes. Nobody ever suggested that Mike White's problem (or Johnson's, or Flacco's) was between the ears.

Rookies are supposed to process things slower than vets; they don't have the mental muscle memory to do it quick and it's why getting them game experience is so important. But this fan base was so burnt by Darnold - who started out processing slow and then kept processing slow - that the baseline spooks us.

Real quick:

1. I don’t think Zach’s major issue is processing speed. I think he’s bad at it, but I think that’s only like 1/20th of his problem. 
 

2. I’d agree about not comparing him to vets if we were talking about established vets, but we’re not. Flacco has been DOA for five years. White and Johnson are fringe players. Streveler was a CFL backup. The gulf between their performances and Zach’s performances in what looks to be a plug-and-play offense is concerning. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Real quick:

1. I don’t think Zach’s major issue is processing speed. I think he’s bad at it, but I think that’s only like 1/20th of his problem. 
 

2. I’d agree about not comparing him to vets if we were talking about established vets, but we’re not. Flacco has been DOA for five years. White and Johnson are fringe players. Streveler was a CFL backup. The gulf between their performances and Zach’s performances in what looks to be a plug-and-play offense is concerning. 

What’s his major issue?

[Smashmouth]

On 9/22/2022 at 8:50 AM, slats said:

Or the Mike White delusion? 
 
It has for this week. I’m hoping it lasts another and this place gets whipped up into its predictable frenzy when Zach is named the starter for Pittsburgh late next week. 

Exactly how is Mike White even referred to as anything when he never got a chance to redeem his one bad game vs the Bills ? People forget he played good in the Colts game before the freak Nerve injury it was not only Cinncy. Somehow people know all about Mike White but know nothing about Zachery . 

[Smashmouth]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Real quick:

1. I don’t think Zach’s major issue is processing speed. I think he’s bad at it, but I think that’s only like 1/20th of his problem. 
 

2. I’d agree about not comparing him to vets if we were talking about established vets, but we’re not. Flacco has been DOA for five years. White and Johnson are fringe players. Streveler was a CFL backup. The gulf between their performances and Zach’s performances in what looks to be a plug-and-play offense is concerning. 

You makin sense again ? Did you forget you're actually a Jets fan ?

[Doggin94it]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So if Jay Cutler had suddenly come out of retirement and performed better than Wilson, that wouldn't have concerned you?  How about Matt Hasselbeck?  Trent Dilfer?  He just gets a built-in excuse and free pass for looking like garbage in an otherwise competent offense?

No, "coming out of retirement" means that you're incredibly rusty and not in football shape, neither of which apply to any of the guys we're talking about.

2 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Real quick:

1. I don’t think Zach’s major issue is processing speed. I think he’s bad at it, but I think that’s only like 1/20th of his problem. 
 

2. I’d agree about not comparing him to vets if we were talking about established vets, but we’re not. Flacco has been DOA for five years. White and Johnson are fringe players. Streveler was a CFL backup. The gulf between their performances and Zach’s performances in what looks to be a plug-and-play offense is concerning. 

The major issue for Zach last year was not working in the framework of the offense, which is a combination of processing speed (he wasn't able to move quickly off his pre-snap reads so when his first option was covered he often went into scramble mode) and a propensity for hero ball that he built himself at BYU (where his OL taught him that if he just waited long enough he'd get the big play). Both of those issues were meaningfully addressed by the final few weeks of the season (it's just unfortunate that by then he didn't have any NFL quality targets other than Berrios).

Re 2, literally the only thing Flacco still does well at this point of his career is "keep the offense moving in structure". He knows where the ball is supposed to go and generally gets it there. Yeah, I'm not surprised he was better at that than a rookie out of BYU, despite his limitations (pocket statue). Again, if Zach year 2 looks like Zach year 1, we have a major problem on our hands. There's no point waiting to find that out.

[Larz]

Delusion?  More like confirmation 

 

 

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, Doggin94it said:

No, "coming out of retirement" means that you're incredibly rusty and not in football shape, neither of which apply to any of the guys we're talking about.

The major issue for Zach last year was not working in the framework of the offense, which is a combination of processing speed (he wasn't able to move quickly off his pre-snap reads so when his first option was covered he often went into scramble mode) and a propensity for hero ball that he built himself at BYU (where his OL taught him that if he just waited long enough he'd get the big play). Both of those issues were meaningfully addressed by the final few weeks of the season (it's just unfortunate that by then he didn't have any NFL quality targets other than Berrios).

Re 2, literally the only thing Flacco still does well at this point of his career is "keep the offense moving in structure". He knows where the ball is supposed to go and generally gets it there. Yeah, I'm not surprised he was better at that than a rookie out of BYU, despite his limitations (pocket statue). Again, if Zach year 2 looks like Zach year 1, we have a major problem on our hands. There's no point waiting to find that out.

I don’t know why you’re differentiating between in- and out- of structure because Zach sucked at both aspects. I presume you’re doing so as a means to ding Flacco and Mike White, who are structure dependent? What “changed” for Zach later in the season was that he was asked to do less while the fan expectations for him had cratered (because of his performance and because of the injuries around him) so him throwing for 100 or 135 yards was celebrated as progress. The A1 headline issue with Zach is that he can’t function when facing pass rush pressure—which is something he had zero experience with at BYU—and he’ll only ever improve as a player if he somehow learns how to play while getting smacked around. The good news is that he’s going to get plenty of chances to work on that in the weeks ahead with the defenses he’s going to face. The bad news is that. If he hasn’t improved—which hasn’t been tested even a little bit since January—it’s going to be very, very ugly and he’s going to get directly blamed for dragging the offense into the toilet. 

[k-met57]

On 9/22/2022 at 10:13 PM, Warfish said:

For something there is a "long list" of, everyone seems to cite only the Bengals.

Yes, they went from 2-14 to 4-11-1 to 10-7 and a lucky SB appearance.  

Mostly on the back of a QB who put up 70%, 4,600 yards and 34 TD's in his second year.

Do you think Zach is a 70%, 4,600 yard, 34 TD, put the team on his back type of guy this year?

I would argue it's perhaps the best possible thing for his development. 

To watch, and learn.  He was clearly unready last year, now he's hurt, again.

Sitting a while, and learning how it's done, while getting healthy, may be the best way to salvage his potential, long term.

If he's that weak, mentally, he was never the Man to start with.

All the Team cares about is winning.

Be assured, if Zach is put back as starter and materially underperforms Flacco, the Team will hate him for it.  

We have three more years of control after this season.  There is literally no rush, except for that which fans create.

i take no pleasure in being right...but hopefully we can put the Joe Flacco garbage to rest now.

[Warfish]

33 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

i take no pleasure in being right.

Of course you do, that's why you're here literally seconds after the game to point out how right you believe you were.

33 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

..but hopefully we can put the Joe Flacco garbage to rest now.

It was never about Flacco.  Or White.  Or Strev.

It's always been about Zach Wilson, and his complete bust-level production and lack of availability so far.

And that isn't over today.  But you know that, this isn't really news.

Hopefully Zach himself actually plays (A) and actually plays like he deserved being the #2 overall pick (B) next week vs. the Steelers.

That, consistently for the remainder of 2022, is the only thing that will put "backup hype" to rest.