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We just need Zach to be average..


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1 hour ago, fullblast said:

The reason this offense has been able to function is Flacco hasn’t turned the ball over much. 1 pick in 100 pass attempts. All we need is a QB who isn’t a turnover machine and the rest will work itself out.

Correct.

However, the reason this offense has more often than not been at a standstill is because the QB can't make plays. Zach is 10 times the playmaker Flacco is. I don't mind some INTs if Zach is out there making plays, scoring TDs and keeping the defense on its heels. 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Average by definition would be the 16th best QB in the NFL 

Not sure that would be a colossal failure.  He should certainly be better than that, but colossal failure is a bit much.  Would put him around Cousins and Carr.

I expect much more from him - and you should expect that with #2....

The odds of finding the 16th best QB in the NFL in the 2nd round shrinks substantially.  You take your best shot at the best QB you can find and do everything to support him.

So if he fails or becomes just average, using a #2 pick on Zach after the Sanchez (#5) and Darnold (#3) busts is not a colossal failure?   You have a much more positive outlook on the team than I can ever imagine.

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I can’t sit through another Wilson thread. Same trope from both sides every time. But I do get the sense that there is a large handful here that would rather be right on Wilson than see him succeed. The over the top vitriol is just weird. And I say that as someone who thinks he likely isn’t the answer at QB. 

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1 hour ago, munchmemory said:

"His skill set attributes are far far above “average”.   That's the party line.  And what Woody and especially JD are hanging their hats on.  So far, I haven't seen anything about Zach Wilson to get excited about.  IMO, he never becomes a Jet franchise QB.

Oh cmon. He was a beast in the TB game and showed some flashes of brilliance in the CAR and TENN game. If he can consistently play like he did against TB then he is going to win plenty of games. I personally am hoping that Flacco will have an outlier year and play the entire season. I think it will be good for Zach to take a redshirt year and get a full TC under his belt next year. I'm worried if he plays this year he's going to come out cold and struggle early on and it's going to cause a sh*tstorm in the media and in the locker room.

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48 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Davis Mills last year was 15th in pass completions, 24th in TD passes and had a QBR that was 20 points higher than Zach Wilson.  He was as good a pro-prospect as Zach except he's smarter, bigger and played against better competition.

I get your undying love for Zach but it doesn't mean you have a clue when it comes to QB prospects.   There are plenty of QB prospects that are drafted after the first round who have become great QB's.  Obviously you can't disect the brain of a prospect during the combine.   If you could there is no question Mills would have been drafted ahead of Zach Wilson. 

NFL hasn’t cracked the code yet to scout QB brains. Until that happens, where starters can be found will be anywhere.

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45 minutes ago, PepPep said:

Correct.

However, the reason this offense has more often than not been at a standstill is because the QB can't make plays. Zach is 10 times the playmaker Flacco is. I don't mind some INTs if Zach is out there making plays, scoring TDs and keeping the defense on its heels. 

I mean... he threw 9 TDs last year. Flacco is already more than halfway to that.

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4 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

 Additionally, anyone not dug in on his failure - noticed the elite traits.  
 

Not true....I definitely do not see the elite traits but I want that kid to succeed because I'm way beyond tired of seeing us start over at qb. I want like hell for all of you to be right since clearly I can't spot qb talent to save my live.

But no, I don't see elite. For a good bit last year he looked like he didn't belong in this league at all, then toward the end of the season I felt a hell of a lot better about him....but elite? No, not yet.

Sent from the NY Jets /Zack Wilson Suicide Watch desk.
 

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Very true, but this offense will continue to struggle, even with a good OL, if they're constantly giving the ball away. Has been an issue nearly every single year with this team for the past 20 years.
2017 we won 4 games but many Jets fans fell in love with Josh McCown that year. Not because he threw for 4000 yards but because he took care of the football and gave them a chance each week. That's all we need.
We only won 4 games that year.

Clearly we needed and need more.

Sent from the NY Jets /Zack Wilson Suicide Watch desk.

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3 hours ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

If the offensive talent on this team is as good as what many of us think it can be.  We’re obviously not there yet on both fronts but

1. Wilson & Carter are jumping off the screen

2. Moore is getting open (a time bomb that might explode tomorrow)

3. Davis & Berrios are talented compliments that can easily win matchups as opponents  pick their poison

4. Hall is quietly becoming dangerous.  His 20+ yard run against the Browns was the perfect balance of vision, patience, and explosiveness

5. A deep group of tight ends will add an element we haven’t had for over a decade or 2

6. Yes, the OLine has started shaky but Mitchell has been a revelation / should only get better & AVT is establishing himself as one of the top guards in football.  Tomlinson will be fine and McGovern is at least an average starting center.  I actually worry most about Fant and hope Brown can make it back

JD has built a young but developing foundation that IMO has a real chance of becoming a top 10 unit with middle of the road QB play, assuming we can finally keep injuries down.

That’s all we need #2 draft pick, next in line franchise savior Zach to be..  

While I agree ZW can be just average for now, average isn't going to take us to the. promised land. We need way better than average. Not necessarily top 5 but at least top 10 or 12.

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31 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I though the entire point of Zach was to NOT settle for mediocrity/average, and to take a shot a greatness and title-level potential?

 

I completely agree and my hope is he is way better than average.  My point is that as the talent around him has improved, we can have a top 10 ‘winning’ offense if he is simply average.

The need for franchise caliber play diminishes:

1. More room for error in his accuracy as WR separation grows

2. More YAC opportunity from his playmakers shortening the field

3. More time to process the defense & throw the ball

4. A running game that should soften play action & throwing lanes

That’s all I mean.  And if average creates occasional stat lines like the average Tua had last week with his stud receivers I’ll take it.  Because Tua didn’t go from average to great.  His receiving core went from avg to great.

In no way does average mean game manager.  His style of play needs to fit with how the offense is set up to optimize its playmakers including Zach.

 

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13 minutes ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

I completely agree and my hope is he is way better than average.  My point is that as the talent around him has improved, we can have a top 10 ‘winning’ offense if he is simply average.

The need for franchise caliber play diminishes:

1. More room for error in his accuracy as WR separation grows

2. More YAC opportunity from his playmakers shortening the field

3. More time to process the defense & throw the ball

4. A running game that should soften play action & throwing lanes

That’s all I mean.  And if average creates occasional stat lines like the average Tua had last week with his stud receivers I’ll take it.  Because Tua didn’t go from average to great.  His receiving core went from avg to great.

In no way does average mean game manager.  His style of play needs to fit with how the offense is set up to optimize its playmakers including Zach.

 

If GWilson, Moore, Davis, MC1, Hall and Conklin can remain healthy another week or two, Zach will have -by far- the strongest cast he’s ever had around him, and dramatically better than the Smith/Black/Krofty combo he was playing with at the end of last season while looking better despite his surrounding cast. The weapons are in place for him to succeed. If he can come in and look “average” the first week or two, that’ll be fine, but he needs to be a lot better than that by the end of the year. If he can’t simply establish himself as clearly the best option on the team by then, the Jets will have some decisions to make. 

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50 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I though the entire point of Zach was to NOT settle for mediocrity/average, and to take a shot a greatness and title-level potential?

 

We were told (conned?) that Zach had exceptional talent and "elite arm talent".  Here, read what Saleh said back then and see if this makes any sense at all now.   Watching Zach head for the right sideline after even modest defensive pressure, Saleh's "Fearless in the pocket, check" comment is beyond laughable.

"Saleh said Wilson "checks every box" for all the traits he and his staff value out of quarterback play."

"You talk about arm strength and accuracy, check. Ability to work off schedule and make plays, check. Fearless in the pocket, check. His ability to recall, process and make the right decisions to get the ball where it needs to go without turning the ball over," Saleh said. "He's a special young man. His mental horsepower is through the roof. We're really excited to have him part of the New York Jets."

https://www.newyorkjets.com/news/jets-sign-qb-zach-wilson-no-2-overall-pick-in-the-2021-nfl-draft

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4 hours ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

If the offensive talent on this team is as good as what many of us think it can be.  We’re obviously not there yet on both fronts but

1. Wilson & Carter are jumping off the screen

2. Moore is getting open (a time bomb that might explode tomorrow)

3. Davis & Berrios are talented compliments that can easily win matchups as opponents  pick their poison

4. Hall is quietly becoming dangerous.  His 20+ yard run against the Browns was the perfect balance of vision, patience, and explosiveness

5. A deep group of tight ends will add an element we haven’t had for over a decade or 2

6. Yes, the OLine has started shaky but Mitchell has been a revelation / should only get better & AVT is establishing himself as one of the top guards in football.  Tomlinson will be fine and McGovern is at least an average starting center.  I actually worry most about Fant and hope Brown can make it back

JD has built a young but developing foundation that IMO has a real chance of becoming a top 10 unit with middle of the road QB play, assuming we can finally keep injuries down.

That’s all we need #2 draft pick, next in line franchise savior Zach to be..  

 

FD070D7C-3627-4E6E-8A7B-30739F19C8AD.gif

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2 hours ago, munchmemory said:

So if he fails or becomes just average, using a #2 pick on Zach after the Sanchez (#5) and Darnold (#3) busts is not a colossal failure?   You have a much more positive outlook on the team than I can ever imagine.

Finding a top 15 QB isn’t a colossal failure in my opinion.  Not ideal  but it’s a QB you can win with. When was the last time the Jets had a QB finish in the top 15 or so?  It’s been a long time.  I think ultimately you can continue to try and hit on a top 5 guy. But you’re competitive and capable of winning every week. 
 

Agin, not great -  it a colossal failure.  
 

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2 hours ago, jgb said:

NFL hasn’t cracked the code yet to scout QB brains. Until that happens, where starters can be found will be anywhere.

The college game is so different - just the speed of the NFL can’t be duplicated.
Which is why teams draft traits. Skills.   And hope he can handle it.  
Guys with elite traits will always go high.  They’re not over drafted, just where the demand is.  

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4 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Finding a top 15 QB isn’t a colossal failure in my opinion.  Not ideal  but it’s a QB you can win with. When was the last time the Jets had a QB finish in the top 15 or so?  It’s been a long time.  I think ultimately you can continue to try and hit on a top 5 guy. But you’re competitive and capable of winning every week. 
 

Agin, not great -  it a colossal failure.  
 

It wouldn't be a colossal failure if Zach became a mid-level ("average") QB after being drafted in the second or third round.  He wasn't.  Zach Wilson was the #2 pick in the NFL draft.  Anything short of great success is a disaster.

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2 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

It wouldn't be a colossal failure if Zach became a mid-level ("average") QB after being drafted in the second or third round.  He wasn't.  Zach Wilson was the #2 pick in the NFL draft.  Anything short of great success is a disaster.

Disagree.  
Disappointment for sure, no doubt.  
but if we have a a Derek cart or Kirk cousins for five years on a rookie contract it’s not a disaster.   No. I don’t think it is.   

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8 hours ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

If the offensive talent on this team is as good as what many of us think it can be.  We’re obviously not there yet on both fronts but

1. Wilson & Carter are jumping off the screen

2. Moore is getting open (a time bomb that might explode tomorrow)

3. Davis & Berrios are talented compliments that can easily win matchups as opponents  pick their poison

4. Hall is quietly becoming dangerous.  His 20+ yard run against the Browns was the perfect balance of vision, patience, and explosiveness

5. A deep group of tight ends will add an element we haven’t had for over a decade or 2

6. Yes, the OLine has started shaky but Mitchell has been a revelation / should only get better & AVT is establishing himself as one of the top guards in football.  Tomlinson will be fine and McGovern is at least an average starting center.  I actually worry most about Fant and hope Brown can make it back

JD has built a young but developing foundation that IMO has a real chance of becoming a top 10 unit with middle of the road QB play, assuming we can finally keep injuries down.

That’s all we need #2 draft pick, next in line franchise savior Zach to be..  

I like Carter but Hall should be starting and getting more carries something like 70/30. Carter has not shot at breaking off huge runs he's own but a tackle breaking machine

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6 hours ago, jgb said:

Said all along with he produces top-16 numbers in any of the following categories — yards, TDs, completion % — I will be satisfied in giving him another year.

The bar is low. Just be average.

I think completion % will tell a lot about whether or not Zach will make it. His abysmal 55% last year is a huge reason so many are worried. If he has a good completion percentage it probably means he is taking care of the ball, making easy reads, cleaning up the bounce passes, etc. It also means his head is on right and he can absorb the NFL game, and make the right decisions as the team's "point guard."

We can't have him running backwards half the time not knowing what to do while producing the occasional splash play. 

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2 hours ago, slats said:

If GWilson, Moore, Davis, MC1, Hall and Conklin can remain healthy another week or two, Zach will have -by far- the strongest cast he’s ever had around him, and dramatically better than the Smith/Black/Krofty combo he was playing with at the end of last season while looking better despite his surrounding cast. The weapons are in place for him to succeed. If he can come in and look “average” the first week or two, that’ll be fine, but he needs to be a lot better than that by the end of the year. If he can’t simply establish himself as clearly the best option on the team by then, the Jets will have some decisions to make. 

Is Tua average?

A 14th-18th ranked starting QB will be much better than Flacco or White.  The decision next year will be based on Zach’s incremental upside and the overall cost / risk of finding (and time developing) an elite QB.  

Hey man, I’m with you on wanting him to be much much more.

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4 hours ago, munchmemory said:

If Zach winds up as average after being the #2 pick?  It will be regarded as another of this franchise's colossal failures.  If we truly just want an average QB, they should have used that pick more wisely and just taken a QB in the second round.

Like who 

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We need him to be better than average.

But it seems like he going to either or bust or be pretty good. If he can mentally process the pro game, he's got tons of talent. If he can't get there mentally, he's going to suck.

Bottom line, we need him to play so we can figure out what we have. Saleh has made it clear multiple times that a player needs up to three years to figure out he will be. Zach being injured just prolongs limbo. 

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