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Lawson is the worst FA signing in recent years.


Warfish
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2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Mosley having an additional cap hit next year shouldn’t have any effect on keeping him. All it means is some 2022 $ was moved to his already-bloated 2023 $.

IOW since the $ pushed to next year was guaranteed, it was a sunk cost anyway.

It only looks messier on paper because there’ll be more cap $ with his name than if another who was restructured, but it’s the same dollars & the same amount either way.

Summary: he’s every bit as cuttable after this season as if he wasn’t restructured.

Do you think they'll cut any combo of Lawson / JFM/ Davis?  all three maybe?

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He has one move which is the bullrush.  He just slams into the LT and doesn’t move them back very far.  Bryce Huff was our only edge who could bend around tackles quickly and he’s been benched/inactive.

His lack of production needs to be noted by Saleh at some point this season.  Same goes for the rest of this bad DL.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Mosley having an additional cap hit next year shouldn’t have any effect on keeping him. All it means is some 2022 $ was moved to his already-bloated 2023 $.

IOW since the $ pushed to next year was guaranteed, it was a sunk cost anyway.

It only looks messier on paper because there’ll be more cap $ with his name than if another who was restructured, but it’s the same dollars & the same amount either way.

Summary: he’s every bit as cuttable after this season as if he wasn’t restructured.

While certainly true from a purely financial perspective, NFL front offices throughout the league, even beyond just the Jets, have shown time and time again an inability to act with that mindset.  It often becomes far more of a concern about PR than it does the true cap implications to many.  Regardless of whether it should have an impact on roster decisions, Mosley already having a hit on next year's cap definitely increases the odds of him making the team.

Assuming the Jets don't have themselves a new GM in this coming offseason (hardly a guarantee), moves will undoubtedly be scrutinized and therefore that means additional motivation to handle things differently, whether that's keeping Mosley over another fringe player who can be cut with little-to-no cap hit, or working to renegotiate his deal for next year instead of outright cutting him.

 

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Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

Man, I would so get this analogy if I were a blacksmith.

I was going to say this fanbase is thirsty for a good team like a desert nomad but since you’re not Lawrence of Arabia, I’ll try to think of a different analogy.

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18 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Him, Holmes, and Plaxico tortured Mark Sanchez. Absolutely ruined him. 

No matter what sht-head antics they pulled in the locker room against Sanchez, they weren't responsible for Sanchez's inability to see the whole field and make smart decisions.  They just escalated his departure. Rex brought in a bunch of a-holes.  Cotch couldn't wait to leave and not only to get more targets somewhere else.

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19 hours ago, Warfish said:

3-years, $45 million.

Missed his entire first season here due to injury.

Is a complete non-entity so far in 2022.  

For all the hype when he was signed, the guy is a joke. 

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era.  

Is there any reason to think he is going to turn it around and start producing?  Or is this now just a sunk cost.

Plus Trey Hendrickson was available at same time. They went with the guy with a lot of pressures but few sacks and not a lot of pass rush moves over the guy with literally dozens of sacks/yr and multiple pass rush moves.

Plus, Lawson prior to coming already had 2 ACL surgeries. 

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19 hours ago, Warfish said:

3-years, $45 million.

Missed his entire first season here due to injury.

Is a complete non-entity so far in 2022.  

For all the hype when he was signed, the guy is a joke. 

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era.  

Is there any reason to think he is going to turn it around and start producing?  Or is this now just a sunk cost.

I have said for many years that the problem with FAs and especially big ticket FAs is that in the end their current team did not see the value in keeping them. I was really excited for Conklin and Uzomah thinking they would be huge upgrades but so far you can totally see why they were FAs. The legend of Lawson from pre-season totally belied any reasonable expectation of him on the field. Saleh was a bad hire. Our only real hope is that Zach really is a franchise guy and helps us win despite our stupidly stubborn head coach

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That was certainly one hell of an expensive joint practice with the Packers but I think fish is a little off track here with this thread.  Lawson spent the entire camp last year as the singular standout and he was destroying whoever lined up against him.

Sad to say but we were just unlucky...... again

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3 hours ago, nj meadowlands said:

Do you think they'll cut any combo of Lawson / JFM/ Davis?  all three maybe?

Probably a combo at a minimum, based on how things stand today. That trio is due >$40MM in new $ next year, with none of it guaranteed. 

I’d add Tomlinson ($13MM) to that list, too. And after 3 games I’m inclined to add Whitehead ($7MM). Mosley ($17MM) is a no-brainer imo. I fail to see why anyone thinks highly of him on the field.

They’re just not going to cut them all, but (as things look today) they’re all about $80MM that could be better spent on others.

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1 hour ago, Bleedin Green said:

While certainly true from a purely financial perspective, NFL front offices throughout the league, even beyond just the Jets, have shown time and time again an inability to act with that mindset.  It often becomes far more of a concern about PR than it does the true cap implications to many.  Regardless of whether it should have an impact on roster decisions, Mosley already having a hit on next year's cap definitely increases the odds of him making the team.

Assuming the Jets don't have themselves a new GM in this coming offseason (hardly a guarantee), moves will undoubtedly be scrutinized and therefore that means additional motivation to handle things differently, whether that's keeping Mosley over another fringe player who can be cut with little-to-no cap hit, or working to renegotiate his deal for next year instead of outright cutting him.

 

Could be. Or he could just explain that they needed room to add another tackle to not play LT, and ultimately that restructuring added $0 net new dollars to the team’s cap.

My expectation is a pay cut to $8-10MM & they keep him for a last season of being unimpressive.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Probably a combo at a minimum, based on how things stand today. That trio is due >$40MM in new $ next year, with none of it guaranteed. 

I’d add Tomlinson ($13MM) to that list, too. And after 3 games I’m inclined to add Whitehead ($7MM). Mosley ($17MM) is a no-brainer imo. I fail to see why anyone thinks highly of him on the field.

They’re just not going to cut them all, but (as things look today) they’re all about $80MM that could be better spent on others.

Right on target Sperm!  (I write giggling to myself).

I actually see the following depart next year given younger, less expensive talent in the wings. 

1. Lawson saves $15M with $333,333 dead cap hit.  Replace with Clemons or FA.

2. Davis saves $10.5M with $666,667 dead cap hit.  Hitting on Wilson, re-signing Berrios make this likely.

3. Mosley is more complicated because they would have effectively pushed back $11.9M of this year's salary to next year.  But they'll still save on the $17M 2023 salary he was due.  I believe they can also roll forward the portion of this year's newly created cap space that goes unused.  Liked what I saw of Sherwood in preseason.  Hoping he is ready and big enough.

The Lawson & Davis signings were fine by JD.  The Jets being the Jets got unlucky with Lawson's injury and Davis is being paid as a #2 WR despite the outcries of some on this board.  

Who likely stays:

1. JFM another year.  He's a good ball player who might be better suited to slide inside full time.  He has a dead cap hit of $7.2M next year with $5M+ in overall savings but the dead cap space decreases to $800K in 2024.

2. Cutting Tomlinson would trigger over $8M in dead cap space.  I just don't see that happening and believe he's still a good player who fits the system well.

3. Uzomah's usage and the hopeful development of Ruckert would put the former on the watch list.  However,  the Jets would actually take a dead cap hit of $11.6M cutting him in 2023 and overall lose $1.3M in cap space.  In retrospect, this might be the biggest head scratching signing of them all.

On the fence:

1. Jordan Whitehead if he is more like who we see now and NOT who Bucs fans saw in 2021.  A $2.9M dead cap hit is painful but $7.2M total cap savings to significantly upgrade the position will likely to be too hard to pass up.  

 

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18 hours ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

Well it's a good thing Douglas restructured Mosley so we have him another year so we could sign Brown. 

I don't believe the restructuring will affect that much. We can still move on from him next year; the dead cap increased but should be splittable over 2 years (if needed).

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While the pass rush has been dreadful the bigger issue is how quickly teams can get the ball out against us.

The Browns and Bengals were killing us with quick plays. Our linebackers and safeties are genuinely two of the worst groups in the NFL and teams are just feasting on them.

I wouldn’t make excuses for Lawson but achilles really is that one injury that still regularly screws up careers. He may never be the same.

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4 hours ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

Right on target Sperm!  (I write giggling to myself).

I actually see the following depart next year given younger, less expensive talent in the wings. 

1. Lawson saves $15M with $333,333 dead cap hit.  Replace with Clemons or FA.

2. Davis saves $10.5M with $666,667 dead cap hit.  Hitting on Wilson, re-signing Berrios make this likely.

3. Mosley is more complicated because they would have effectively pushed back $11.9M of this year's salary to next year.  But they'll still save on the $17M 2023 salary he was due.  I believe they can also roll forward the portion of this year's newly created cap space that goes unused.  Liked what I saw of Sherwood in preseason.  Hoping he is ready and big enough.

The Lawson & Davis signings were fine by JD.  The Jets being the Jets got unlucky with Lawson's injury and Davis is being paid as a #2 WR despite the outcries of some on this board.  

Who likely stays:

1. JFM another year.  He's a good ball player who might be better suited to slide inside full time.  He has a dead cap hit of $7.2M next year with $5M+ in overall savings but the dead cap space decreases to $800K in 2024.

2. Cutting Tomlinson would trigger over $8M in dead cap space.  I just don't see that happening and believe he's still a good player who fits the system well.

3. Uzomah's usage and the hopeful development of Ruckert would put the former on the watch list.  However,  the Jets would actually take a dead cap hit of $11.6M cutting him in 2023 and overall lose $1.3M in cap space.  In retrospect, this might be the biggest head scratching signing of them all.

On the fence:

1. Jordan Whitehead if he is more like who we see now and NOT who Bucs fans saw in 2021.  A $2.9M dead cap hit is painful but $7.2M total cap savings to significantly upgrade the position will likely to be too hard to pass up.  

 

Agree with all this.

 Thing with the “dead” cap amounts is that they must hit whether they’re here or not. It’s not an additional lost amount. Granted the optics are worse to many when the player’s not there anymore, but mathematically it makes no difference. Once they’re past the guaranteed amounts, all that matters is how much new money they are willing or unwilling to pay each. And these guys right now aren’t worth those new amounts.

The accelerated hits just mean they may need to push that back where they’d have originally hit by restructuring someone else who is still here. 

Sometimes they do split the baby and agree to a pay cut. I half expect that with at least one. 

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Joe Douglas has had the WORSE luck possible.

Uses #11 over all on top Tackle. Dude misses ALL of his 2nd AND 3rd seasons with a booboo to his knee cap. But wait.....

Signs Duane Brown to play LT, The single most durable LT in the game. Within hours of signing, Duane is injured for the first time in his career and placed on IR. But wait....

Signs Joyner, a previously good Safety, a sincere position of need. After one play, Joyner is in IR for the entire season. And when he finally comes back, is the worse safety on the team. But wait....

Signs pass rusher Carl Lawson to a lucrative contract to become our pass rushing stud. Dude plays zero snaps before tearing his Achiles and is probably done as an athlete. But wait....

Uses #2 overall on a franchise QB, who once again, is out 1/4 of the season with a booboo to his knee cap.

Did I get everything?

Some how I think our franchise has been knee capped. How good could we have been IF Becton stayed healthy and nailed down the left side? How good could we have been IF Carl Lawson continued his incredible TC run and dominated in actual games? How good would we have been in games 1 and 3 this season IF Duane Brown haD the left side nailed down and Flacco had more than enough time to throw, like in game 2?

 

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On 9/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, Warfish said:

3-years, $45 million.

Missed his entire first season here due to injury.

Is a complete non-entity so far in 2022.  

For all the hype when he was signed, the guy is a joke. 

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era.  

Is there any reason to think he is going to turn it around and start producing?  Or is this now just a sunk cost.

Stupid post.

The guy is coming off of a significant injury, missed his first year. It will take a while for him to find that same gear again, it will take several games, but it will come.

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On 9/26/2022 at 6:17 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

Mosley having an additional cap hit next year shouldn’t have any effect on keeping him. All it means is some 2022 $ was moved to his already-bloated 2023 $.

IOW since the $ pushed to next year was guaranteed, it was a sunk cost anyway.

It only looks messier on paper because there’ll be more cap $ with his name than if another who was restructured, but it’s the same dollars & the same amount either way.

Summary: he’s every bit as cuttable after this season as if he wasn’t restructured.

This just isnt true.

His dead cap space hit next year almost guarantees he will not be cut. That was not the case before.

Something that was created by Douglas restructuring.

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11 minutes ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

This just isnt true.

His dead cap space hit next year almost guarantees he will not be cut. That was not the case before.

Something that was created by Douglas restructuring.

I see why people think this, but no.

His dead cap is a sunk cost that doesn’t dictate whether he’s worth another $17MM in new additional salary for 2023.

He costs more to keep. $17MM more.

Football’s cap is soft, in that things can be pushed and carried over from one season to the next. All that matters is how much more they’re going to pay him. If he’s kept as-is he costs $17MM more than cutting him (less the cost of his replacement of course). 

The only numbers that hit the cap are monies paid to the player. If they pay him another $17MM then that's $17MM less they can pay others. They don't pay twice because he was restructured. All they did was move some of his 2022 hit from 2022 to 2023 (or 2023+ if kept). But it's the same dollars; you don't count them twice. 

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24 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I see why people think this, but no.

His dead cap is a sunk cost that doesn’t dictate whether he’s worth another $17MM in new additional salary for 2023.

He costs more to keep. $17MM more.

Football’s cap is soft, in that things can be pushed and carried over from one season to the next. All that matters is how much more they’re going to pay him. If he’s kept as-is he costs $17MM more than cutting him (less the cost of his replacement of course). 

The only numbers that hit the cap are monies paid to the player. If they pay him another $17MM then that's $17MM less they can pay others. They don't pay twice because he was restructured. All they did was move some of his 2022 hit from 2022 to 2023 (or 2023+ if kept). But it's the same dollars; you don't count them twice. 

We have to pay significantly more towards him of our cap next season if we were to cut him. That is the only thing that matters in this equation.

Something we didnt have to do until Douglas handed out another bad contract to Ryan Kalil 2.0

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On 9/25/2022 at 4:47 PM, Beerfish said:

Actually the bigger question is what high priced Fa has this team signed the last decade who has been remotely close to the money they get?

The Jets are retirement central for players who no longer want to play but want the pay check  (See Duane Brown)

See Lamarcus Joyner....I never understood why some youtubers around here (you know who you are) were so high in resigning a guy who spend the entire year in the inury list last year. There should be no surprise that the guys is atrocious now. 

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34 minutes ago, Prodigal Syndicate said:

We have to pay significantly more towards him of our cap next season if we were to cut him. That is the only thing that matters in this equation.

Something we didnt have to do until Douglas handed out another bad contract to Ryan Kalil 2.0

Mosley is just as cuttable now as he was then because all that matters is how much more $ they want to invest in him. It saves $17MM to cut him. That they used a lot of that $17MM in 2022 doesn't change the fact that keeping him in 2023 adds an additional $17MM more than cutting him.

If it makes you feel better, or understand it better, then the way they'd offset it is to backload 1-2 new signings so they hit more after Mosley's restructure bonus $ is off the books. But it also coincides with a year when they'll have plenty of space and fewer starter holes they need to fill with FAs.

All that should concern Douglas & company, because they're not going to have dire cap problems next year, is whether or not each player is worth paying the above amounts in new/additional money that isn't currently guaranteed.

A team never saves net/future cap room by throwing another 8 figures of non-guaranteed money at a player they don't always want on the field anymore. The rest is a temporary nothing that only bothers some fans, and is easily gotten around by front-loading or restructuring someone else instead, to get around any single-year issues (if they even arise at all).

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On 9/25/2022 at 3:53 PM, Warfish said:

3-years, $45 million.

Missed his entire first season here due to injury.

Is a complete non-entity so far in 2022.  

For all the hype when he was signed, the guy is a joke. 

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era.  

Is there any reason to think he is going to turn it around and start producing?  Or is this now just a sunk cost.

define "recent years"

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22 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

Mosley is just as cuttable now as he was then because all that matters is how much more $ they want to invest in him. It saves $17MM to cut him. That they used a lot of that $17MM in 2022 doesn't change the fact that keeping him in 2023 adds an additional $17MM more than cutting him.

If it makes you feel better, or understand it better, then the way they'd offset it is to backload 1-2 new signings so they hit more after Mosley's restructure bonus $ is off the books. But it also coincides with a year when they'll have plenty of space and fewer starter holes they need to fill with FAs.

All that should concern Douglas & company, because they're not going to have dire cap problems next year, is whether or not each player is worth paying the above amounts in new/additional money that isn't currently guaranteed.

A team never saves net/future cap room by throwing another 8 figures of non-guaranteed money at a player they don't always want on the field anymore. The rest is a temporary nothing that only bothers some fans, and is easily gotten around by front-loading or restructuring someone else instead, to get around any single-year issues (if they even arise at all).

Why would Joe Douglas backloading future contracts make me feel better about all the poor contracts he has been handing out and restructuring?

Getting around a bad contract restructure that was needed because of his poor asset management of Tackles by restructuring another future bad contract is not good cap management, nor the sign of a good GM. Which Joe Douglas is not.

It is poor decisions stacking on top of poor decisions, and writing "well we can get around it by doing even more poor decisions" is not a comfort.

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On 9/26/2022 at 9:05 PM, FootballLove said:

Joe Douglas has had the WORSE luck possible.

Uses #11 over all on top Tackle. Dude misses ALL of his 2nd AND 3rd seasons with a booboo to his knee cap. But wait.....

Signs Duane Brown to play LT, The single most durable LT in the game. Within hours of signing, Duane is injured for the first time in his career and placed on IR. But wait....

Signs Joyner, a previously good Safety, a sincere position of need. After one play, Joyner is in IR for the entire season. And when he finally comes back, is the worse safety on the team. But wait....

Signs pass rusher Carl Lawson to a lucrative contract to become our pass rushing stud. Dude plays zero snaps before tearing his Achiles and is probably done as an athlete. But wait....

Uses #2 overall on a franchise QB, who once again, is out 1/4 of the season with a booboo to his knee cap.

Did I get everything?

Some how I think our franchise has been knee capped. How good could we have been IF Becton stayed healthy and nailed down the left side? How good could we have been IF Carl Lawson continued his incredible TC run and dominated in actual games? How good would we have been in games 1 and 3 this season IF Duane Brown haD the left side nailed down and Flacco had more than enough time to throw, like in game 2?

 

Is that really bad luck or is Douglas just an idiot? 

Duane brown was on the free agent market for a reason. Carl Lawson was let go by cinci for a reason. Whitehead too. 

Its not bad luck it's bad decisions 

Joe Douglas showed up talking all this trash about building a team the right way then he spends 40 mil on a terrible guard 

And this thread is about free agents but Joe Douglas' worst decision, the one that will get him fired, was Zach. 

There's not a problem on this team that can't be solved by Zach playing to his potential. 

Instead of wearing a cape and saving the team the kid is on week 6 of healing what was supposed to be a 3 week injury 

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