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Lawson is the worst FA signing in recent years.


Warfish
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Just now, bitonti said:

Is that really bad luck or is Douglas just an idiot? 

Duane brown was on the free agent market for a reason. Carl Lawson was let go by cinci for a reason. Whitehead too. 

Its not bad luck it's bad decisions 

Joe Douglas showed up talking all this trash about building a team the right way then he spends 40 mil on a terrible guard 

And this thread is about free agents but Joe Douglas' worst decision, the one that will get him fired, was Zach. 

There's not a problem on this team that can't be solved by Zach playing to his potential. 

uhh, aren't most free agents let go by their previous teams? 

Also, the defense is going to magically play better if Zach balls out? Are the coaches suddenly going to call better plays? I agree with you that Zach playing well will dramatically improve the offense, but saying everything can be solved with Zach playing to his potential is a very big exaggeration.

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3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

It appears to me that Quinnen Williams is still our best 1 on 1 pass rusher - I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but it seems really stupid to take him off the field for 30-35% of our defensive snaps . . . 

south park beat a dead horse GIF

Horse beaten

Actually, I wouldn't say you're beating a dead horse. This is a very good point, I guess maybe Saleh is scared of injuries or something like that?

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11 minutes ago, Hex said:

south park beat a dead horse GIF

Horse beaten

Actually, I wouldn't say you're beating a dead horse. This is a very good point, I guess maybe Saleh is scared of injuries or something like that?

He has spoken on it before 

basically, their philosophy is that, in their system, the DL are asked to do so much and expend so much energy that players can’t realistically handle 90-100% of the snaps - So they rotate guys in and out to keep everybody fresh. 
 

To quote George Carlin - I think it’s a bunch of sh*t. 
 

the reality is that Quinnen Williams is a lot better than Nathan shepherd or even Sheldon Rankins (who actually had a really good game last Sunday). Being fresh is nice, but being better is . . . Well . . . better. QW should be on the field as much as possible. 

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12 minutes ago, Hex said:

 

Also, the defense is going to magically play better if Zach balls out? Are the coaches suddenly going to call better plays? I agree with you that Zach playing well will dramatically improve the offense, but saying everything can be solved with Zach playing to his potential is a very big exaggeration.

Yes defenses do play better when the qb is dealing. Defense is also easier to play with a lead. 

Yes coaches look smarter when the qb plays well. 

The difference between the good teams and the bad ones isn't just talent it is confidence that the good teams are never out of it 

The Jets go down 7-0 it feels like 70-0 when the qb is playing poorly. 

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4 hours ago, slimjasi said:

It appears to me that Quinnen Williams is still our best 1 on 1 pass rusher - I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but it seems really stupid to take him off the field for 30-35% of our defensive snaps . . . 

Does any other team do this sh*t?

We're paying Lawson and JFM huge money to play half the snaps. 

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On 9/25/2022 at 5:26 PM, chirorob said:

Rock and a hard place. 

When the team is this bad, you need culture changers, otherwise you just gets guys who get paid and quit.

You aren't getting huge, premium FA signings because, #1 premium FA don't usually hit the market, #2, if they do, they don't want to go to a team that wins 4 games a year.

That seems to be a hard thing for the fanbase to understand.  I am sure it is the same in Cleveland.

If you don't win, and continually don't win, you have to build through the draft first.  That takes a LOT longer.  Until you then start winning, nobody wants to play for you.

Yup, Hendrikson was available that same year.  What if he actually DIDN'T want to play here, and the only option (overpaid of course) is Lawson?

A lot of free agents have not worked out.  Some have.  But nobody has been given an albatross contract like Mike Mccagnan used to hand out.  We can be out from under Lawson (who might have been a good signing if he didn't blow out his Achilles), Corey Davis (decent signing, not a game changer though.....you draft those), JFM (bad extension....never lived up to its value) next year.  Most of JD's signings have been for about two years, with the other years voidable.  THAT part JD is killing.  Correctly signing guys for the right term.  But he is batting about .500 at signing the right guys.

 

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7 hours ago, slimjasi said:

He has spoken on it before 

basically, their philosophy is that, in their system, the DL are asked to do so much and expend so much energy that players can’t realistically handle 90-100% of the snaps - So they rotate guys in and out to keep everybody fresh. 
 

To quote George Carlin - I think it’s a bunch of sh*t. 
 

the reality is that Quinnen Williams is a lot better than Nathan shepherd or even Sheldon Rankins (who actually had a really good game last Sunday). Being fresh is nice, but being better is . . . Well . . . better. QW should be on the field as much as possible. 

It’s really stupid

I sat right directly behind the Jets sideline in Buffalo last year and the d linemen (Myers and Williams) were rolling their eyes and visibly frustrated with having to stand on the sideline to keep fresh

… in week 18 mind you

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On 9/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, Warfish said:

3-years, $45 million.

Missed his entire first season here due to injury.

Is a complete non-entity so far in 2022.  

For all the hype when he was signed, the guy is a joke

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era.  

Is there any reason to think he is going to turn it around and start producing?  Or is this now just a sunk cost.

I’d say bad luck for a great player coming to a snake bitten franchise rather than sh*tting on the actual player who tears his Achilles. But who cares. I’m pretty sure the players don’t and neither would I would w that kind of money 

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Just now, HessStation said:

I’d say bad luck for a great player coming to a snake bitten franchise rather than sh*tting on the actual player who tears his Achilles. But who cares. I’m pretty sure the players don’t and neither would I would that kind of money 

He was never anything close to a "great player".  Sorry.

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52 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Calling a player a joke because after he missed a year with an Achilles and still isn’t back to being the player they thought they were signing is kind of off base.

Way off base and not a joke.

Bro if he’s still hurt he shouldn’t be out there

If he is out there he deserves criticism if he sucks just like he would be praised if he was dominating.

Stop trying to always cape for someone in this organization 

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4 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

Bro if he’s still hurt he shouldn’t be out there

If he is out there he deserves criticism if he sucks just like he would be praised if he was dominating.

Stop trying to always cape for someone in this organization 

What does any of this have to do with being a bust?  
How is this me “trying to always cape for someone in this organization”?  Whatever you meant because I won’t call an injured player a bust while you continue to complain 

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9 minutes ago, Bronxville Jets Fan said:

Trumaine Johnson says hello.

5 year, 72.5M deal, of which he only played 2 years with the Jets. 

Over those two years, produced 15 starts, 5 INT's, 1 TD, 7 PD's, 1 Forced Fumble, 1 Fumble Recov., 2 TFL and 57 solo tackled.

Pretty weak.

Lawson so far (1 year, 3 games) has 3 starts, 0.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 1 TLF and 2 solo tackles.

We'll have to see what Lawson does as the year goes on, but it's no clear winner for Johnson as worst at this point (from production, from cap-hell is a whole other story). 

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On 9/25/2022 at 4:53 PM, Warfish said:

3-years, $45 million.

Missed his entire first season here due to injury.

Is a complete non-entity so far in 2022.  

For all the hype when he was signed, the guy is a joke. 

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era.  

Is there any reason to think he is going to turn it around and start producing?  Or is this now just a sunk cost.

I liked the idea of bringing him in. I think a lot of posters mentioned at the time we paid a premium, and that we were paying for potential upside vs actual production. It's unfortunate we'll never know how he would have performed without the injury. 

From what I recall, he was still getting some pressures this season, but agreed, he's been a bit of a non-factor. I think he's a sunk cost unfortunately.

I think his contract is still better than Tru and Mosley's though, as we have an out after this season (and I don't expect him to be on the roster past this season unless we can't sign anyone else with that money).

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On 9/25/2022 at 5:23 PM, Jets723 said:

From what I remember most liked it.  Look I’m not denying it sucks now but no one could have foreseen that he would have a Achilles injury 

At this point, we should assume any high paid FA will get injured within the first 6 games of signing.

I'm watching Laken Tomlinson very closely to see when he tears a pec or something...

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Remember when the return of Lawson was supposed to "unlock" Quinnen Williams?

Or even vice versa?

I hate that folks here don't consider Quinnen Williams a bust, merely because he was the classic Macc top 10 pick:  Good enough to stay on the field and do fairly well some of the time, but not someone who ever moves the needle for your franchise.

I'm way angrier at Macc for the QW pick than Douglas for the Lawson signing.  Lawson was a worthwhile shot to take for a team starved for a pass rusher since 2005.  Especially since, supposedly, Trey Hendrickson wasn't interested in coming here.  

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1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Remember when the return of Lawson was supposed to "unlock" Quinnen Williams?

Or even vice versa?

I hate that folks here don't consider Quinnen Williams a bust, merely because he was the classic Macc top 10 pick:  Good enough to stay on the field and do fairly well some of the time, but not someone who ever moves the needle for your franchise.

I'm way angrier at Macc for the QW pick than Douglas for the Lawson signing.  Lawson was a worthwhile shot to take for a team starved for a pass rusher since 2005.  Especially since, supposedly, Trey Hendrickson wasn't interested in coming here.  

I’ve been down on QW but he was really good vs Cincy, which makes it all the more bizarre that we’re subbing him out for Shepherd on 40% of the plays.

He was an awful pick but it was a pretty bad spot in the draft too.

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6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Remember when the return of Lawson was supposed to "unlock" Quinnen Williams?

Or even vice versa?

I hate that folks here don't consider Quinnen Williams a bust, merely because he was the classic Macc top 10 pick:  Good enough to stay on the field and do fairly well some of the time, but not someone who ever moves the needle for your franchise.

I'm way angrier at Macc for the QW pick than Douglas for the Lawson signing.  Lawson was a worthwhile shot to take for a team starved for a pass rusher since 2005.  Especially since, supposedly, Trey Hendrickson wasn't interested in coming here.  

Facts. Quinnen is a "good" player but thats about it. When has he dominated a game? #3 overall? In a re-draft he'd probably go late 1st? 2nd? Also doesn't help our coaching staff takes him out for half the game. 

 

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14 minutes ago, xJayce said:

I liked the idea of bringing him in. I think a lot of posters mentioned at the time we paid a premium, and that we were paying for potential upside vs actual production. It's unfortunate we'll never know how he would have performed without the injury.

I think we have to separate two related but separate things:

It IS absolutely sad/unfortunate that he got hurt, and hurt with an injury that may never allow him to be "what he could have been".  No question.

But in evaluating if a pick, draft or FA, worked out, it's not about the injury being his fault or the like, it's purely "what did they provide us".

People far too often get these two mixed together, especially the "11th Commandment, Thou Shall Not Be Critical" types.

His fault or not, tragic or not, Lawson in year 1 game us absolutely nothing and left us in a lurch.  And so far in 2022, apart from being a leader in almost getting to a QB but not actually getting to him, he's been pretty average or worse as a pass rushing D-End/Edge (the two forced fumbles are nice tho). 

14 minutes ago, xJayce said:

From what I recall, he was still getting some pressures this season, but agreed, he's been a bit of a non-factor. I think he's a sunk cost unfortunately.

This isn;t aimed at you, as it sounds like you get it (or maybe not seeing the other post above, lol), but "Pressures" is a meaningless and subjective non-stat.  I said it when we signed Lawson and that was flogged as his big thing, and I'll repeat it now.

Who or what "pressured" a QB is a subjective, not objective, evaluation.  If you're close but never had any chance to get to the QB, you can still get a "pressure" when in reality you did nothing to rush or otherwise interfere with that QB's play.

Worse, a pressure doesn't actually result in anything specific, much less anything good.  A "pressured" QB can still successfully land a 40 yard pass for a TD.  Inherantly a pressure means you got close-ish, but didn't actually sack the guy.  That's all it means.  

14 minutes ago, xJayce said:

I think his contract is still better than Tru and Mosley's though, as we have an out after this season (and I don't expect him to be on the roster past this season unless we can't sign anyone else with that money).

We'll see, Tru was pretty damn horrible, that's unquestionable, but as noted above, he did produce at least a little.  We'll see if Lawson improves as the year goes on and nullifies this criticism of him.

Like Zach, the best way to silence critics is to produce.  And Lawson has all year long still to do just that.

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Wait, so your initial premise was 

Quote

 

Mr. led the league in "Almost got there" doesn't even almost get there much anymore.

The failure of an investment (so far) is a big part of why our pass rush, and Defense, has been so horrid during the Saleh Era

 

Someone demonstrates that your premise is wrong, and your response is:

On 9/25/2022 at 9:05 PM, Warfish said:

QB "Pressures", the subjective 'Stat' that marks when a Defender "almost got there, like seriously, I totes almost got there, that QB knew I was there, or like, in his mind eye he 'saw' me coming, I totes messed up that play, it's on the DB why the pass was completed for 40 yards and a score".

3rd in the league, I retract my complaint.  Or maybe I just almost retract it.

So, not only is he doing what he's always done (getting pressures), he is doing so at a high level (amongst the league leaders). Your point has been countered by an accepted metric that is tracked. You now mock the stat you initially brought up as demonstrating he's not performing. Then respond with some passive aggressive BS about "almost" retracting your complaint?

Just... Wow?

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20 minutes ago, xJayce said:

Wait, so your initial premise was 

Someone demonstrates that your premise is wrong, and your response is:

So, not only is he doing what he's always done (getting pressures), he is doing so at a high level (amongst the league leaders). Your point has been countered by an accepted metric that is tracked. You now mock the stat you initially brought up as demonstrating he's not performing. Then respond with some passive aggressive BS about "almost" retracting your complaint?

Just... Wow?

If Lawson got a "pressure" stat, and the QB still completed the pass for 40 yards and a TD, how much is that "pressure" worth.

You're clearly in the group who think this particular 'advanced stat' carries actual meaningful value on it's own.

It doesn't (IMO).  It requires context, what actually was the result of that pressure.  It's meaningless without that. 

Sacks (i.e. actually getting to a QB) carry value.  TFL carries value.  Pressures don't mean sh*t on their own.

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