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"Culture Changing" talk is complete BS.


kevinc855

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1 hour ago, Saul Goodman said:

And Saleh says after blowout losses that he’s “proud of the players” and how they “fought”.

Players who don't fight don't belong in the NFL.  You get paid to fight, and you get paid to have a winning mentality. 

Being proud of his players is setting the bar at a very low level.  

As far as Joe Douglas saying that "he expects meaningful games in December", I can go along with that.

But, what happens if there is not meaningful games in December?  Will Joe Douglas hold Robert Saleh an his coaching staff accountable?  

That is the real question as far as I am concerned.

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53 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Good post.

I've followed the Premier League intermittently over the past decade, and while this year may be rough for them, the way Jurgen Klopp has changed the Liverpool culture over the past five years has been amazing to watch.

Wish we could find someone to do that here...

Just couldn’t change it as much as Pep has at City!!

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50 minutes ago, PepPep said:

LOL half the stuff you talk about here as equating to traits of WINNING coaches has to do with culture. Bringing in hard nosed guys, being dedicated, in some instances being obsessed with X's and O's, in some instances being obsessed with practice, etc. etc. Cowher and Belichick weren't culture guys?? Are you kidding me? 

Maybe Saleh and JD talk about it a bit too much. Maybe you don't like the positive attitude Saleh has. Or his 'all gas no brakes' catchphrase. Yes, I'll admit, when a team is losing those things don't look as good as when you are smoking teams on the field. But that doesn't mean this team did not need a 'culture' change from when Gase and Mac were here.  

Well said.  It's not about whether culture is important, clearly Saleh recognizes that.  He's just clueless on how to change the culture.  No amount of talking will do it, it's all about demanding players perform to the level they're capable of and holding them accountable.  Accepting miscommunications and blaming the resulting play on bad luck is the exact opposite. 

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2 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

I'm tired of hearing about the "culture" of a building. Listen I get it, we are the most of die hard fans who talk Jets 24-7. We watch all these You Tube guys desperate for content or read a beat reporter looking for something to write. The stupidest sh*t I hear though is we should be happy because the "Culture" is changing? WTF. Did Mike McDaniel in Miami or Daboll in the Giants spend all offseason talking about culture changing? No they went to work, focused on football, brought in hard nose guys and set out to win football games. Thats what successful rookie HC's and GM's go out and do, create WINNING FOOTBALL TEAMS, not a place where "everyone loves football". 

Culture talk is ridiculous, over rated, and not relevant to Sundays. Gimme some mean SOB's who want to go win football games and you create a WINNING culture. All reports out of NE the last 20 years was about a team dedicated to winning and obsessed with X and Os. Was Bill Bellichick all positive vibes? The opposite and his teams won. Was Bill Cowher about culture? Go down the line and look at successful coaches and organizations, they didnt spend all day preaching culture, they obssesed over the field, over practices, over winning on Sunday. 

Save me the culture talk and go win some games. 

A couple of quotes from Bill Cowher on Leadership:

"Good leaders are good listeners."

"The biggest thing you’re trying to do when leading anything is you’re trying to create a culture and the sense that everyone is striving for the same purpose."

"Leadership to me is the ability to inspire and influence people around you. So many times some of the greatest leaders to me are teaching."

"Whatever business and profession you’re in, keeping things in perspective is important. You’re never as good as you think you are, and you’re never as bad as they say you are."

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3 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

A couple of quotes from Bill Cowher on Leadership:

"Good leaders are good listeners."

"The biggest thing you’re trying to do when leading anything is you’re trying to create a culture and the sense that everyone is striving for the same purpose."

"Leadership to me is the ability to inspire and influence people around you. So many times some of the greatest leaders to me are teaching."

"Whatever business and profession you’re in, keeping things in perspective is important. You’re never as good as you think you are, and you’re never as bad as they say you are."

That's why he never did anything as a HC and got fired after 2 years. Stewpid slogans that include the last phrase of the last line above are recipes for acceptance of failure. Over-promoted DC with his touchy-feely sayings. And spittle. 

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17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

That's why he never did anything as a HC and got fired after 2 years. Stewpid slogans that include the last phrase of the last line above are recipes for acceptance of failure. Over-promoted DC with his touchy-feely sayings. And spittle. 

Right and then they replaced him w/ some bozo who believes:

"I think you see all veteran guys helping younger guys.  It is just a component of team.  It's a component of our culture that we cultivate and appreciate, and we do so intentionally" head coach Mike Tomlin told reporters.

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Some of you are misreading my comments as their is no culture needed, I'm more saying this Leadership seems to obsess over it more then winning. Also their bar is always set so low, it creates a counter winning culture in my mind. The GM fro example just wants to meaniful football in December, never sets the bar for playoffs. Salehs bar is just that his team "fights" not wins. I dont get these two and they dont motivate me as fan one bit. 

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47 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Right and then they replaced him w/ some bozo who believes:

"I think you see all veteran guys helping younger guys.  It is just a component of team.  It's a component of our culture that we cultivate and appreciate, and we do so intentionally" head coach Mike Tomlin told reporters.

Another touchy-feely coach on building a "culture" of success:

In training camp, therefore, we don’t focus on the ultimate goal—getting to the Super Bowl. We establish a clear set of goals that are within immediate reach: we’re going to be a smart team; we’re going to be a well-conditioned team; we’re going to be a team that plays hard; we’re going to be a team that has pride; we’re going to be a team that wants to win collectively; we’re going to be a team that doesn’t criticize one another.

Copy/paste this quote into google and see the wimpy author's name revealed. 

Hint: changing culture by changing the uniform.

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11 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

Some of you are misreading my comments as their is no culture needed, I'm more saying this Leadership seems to obsess over it more then winning. Also their bar is always set so low, it creates a counter winning culture in my mind. The GM fro example just wants to meaniful football in December, never sets the bar for playoffs. Salehs bar is just that his team "fights" not wins. I dont get these two and they dont motivate me as fan one bit. 

Even with the bar so low, they can’t come close

Maybe they should think smaller

Like meaningful games through the month of October 

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First time HCs just imagine what their job will be and so they have mantras.  Once they get punched in the face all that crap should go out the window and they must begin to  adjusting to realities of their job/task.

THIS is where Saleh fails IMHO.  He is more interested in his pre-conceived notions than adjusting to the actual reality.  Or maybe he is not capable of learning on the job.  Not interested or not capable, who knows. 

Do any long term HCs actually spout mantras?  

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35 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

First time HCs just imagine what their job will be and so they have mantras.  Once they get punched in the face all that crap should go out the window and they must begin to  adjusting to realities of their job/task.

THIS is where Saleh fails IMHO.  He is more interested in his pre-conceived notions than adjusting to the actual reality.  Or maybe he is not capable of learning on the job.  Not interested or not capable, who knows. 

Do any long term HCs actually spout mantras?  

I'm wholly unimpressed by Saleh thus far, and that's me being polite. I'll grant him that he's still just 3 games into his 2nd season as HC, with a first one coaching a roster that wasn't ready for primetime, but he seems to be in over his head. The smartest thing he did was make sure there's no obvious in-season HC replacement on his staff so he's got total job security until the offseason every year.

As far as mantras? It's not my thing, but tbh they all do it.

  • The Steelers' last two SB-winning HCs spoke outwardly of culture changes, as JiF posted above.
  • The guy in the glass changed the uniforms here, on the heels of changing them in New England as what he felt was a necessary part of a culture change. After that he made the rookies earn the stars on their helmets in Dallas as he had special no-star ones made for their summers (actually pretty funny).
  • No-nonsense Mangini painted over the hallway murals of Jim Brown & the team's other HOFers.
  • When Coughlin went to the Jaguars' FO after coaching? “We need a culture change." Direct quote, and he alluded to it plenty with the Giants, too. Not "we need to play & coach smarter & just flat-out better" -- culture change is what he felt was needed. 
  • Probably wouldn't take effort - only time - to find dozens more examples from well-regarded HCs past and present, whether players' coaches or strict disciplinarian types.

These things seem to follow a lot of coaches. It's a tool they use, probably to grab attention & jolt players out of a funk of going through the same (losing) motions, but in the end a gimmick isn't going to make them better coaches. Good coaches will produce & bad ones won't, whether with such mantras, gimmicks, or the absence of both. In the end, winning is what sustains a culture change. They can put the cart before the horse as a tactic, but soon afterward the horse has to do the pulling.

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There are things coaches can do to establish a winning culture, like accountability, discipline, hard work, but over the long run it only can be sustained if it comes with winning. On the contrary, Rex's loosey goosey culture worked short term, but at some point it was a disaster
The problem with the two successful playoff years with Rex's is that the record was not a true reflection of the health of the team from a roster and contract pov. It was lipstick on a pig(s foot).

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

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2 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

The problem with the two successful playoff years with Rex's is that the record was not a true reflection of the health of the team from a roster and contract pov. It was lipstick on a pig(s foot).

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk
 

yes it was. Rex was in the right place at the right time and the veteran, disciplined team that Mangini put together could counter balance Rex's clown show. But as soon as that fell apart, it was game over

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2 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

Some of you are misreading my comments as their is no culture needed, I'm more saying this Leadership seems to obsess over it more then winning. Also their bar is always set so low, it creates a counter winning culture in my mind. The GM fro example just wants to meaniful football in December, never sets the bar for playoffs. Salehs bar is just that his team "fights" not wins. I dont get these two and they dont motivate me as fan one bit. 

Plain and simple - All of the talk and slogans would be praised if the team was winning. Everyone loved loud Rex when he was winning , not so much when he was losing.

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13 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Plain and simple - All of the talk and slogans would be praised if the team was winning. Everyone loved loud Rex when he was winning , not so much when he was losing.

Agreed. Just focus on winning, the rest of the slogans and stuff is a sideshow. An nfl season is not an 18 week development camp.

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21 hours ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Did Dennis Rodman “love ball”?  Was he a Boy Scout, team captain, or great “locker room guy”?

He loved partying with Madonna and Carmen Electra in Vegas or whatever else he was doing.  

Didn’t matter.  Phil Jackson and MJ found a way to integrate him into the locker room and win rings.

Incorrect.   Couldn’t be more wrong about this and took your thought and argument off the right line.  
 

Dennis loved ball and rebounding especially.  He was passionate about it and spent hours looking at where on the rim different guys tended to hit and watched tape about how to tip the ball away from others and keep it alive until he could get it.   Nobody else cared and he’d spend full time hours looking into it.  
 

He loved to compete WAY more than most.   
 

And he had(has) demons that would get in the way sometimes.  Phil was good at getting more good years out of him in the middle of his spiral.  

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7 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Incorrect.   Couldn’t be more wrong about this and took your thought and argument off the right line.  
 

Dennis loved ball and rebounding especially.  He was passionate about it and spent hours looking at where on the rim different guys tended to hit and watched tape about how to tip the ball away from others and keep it alive until he could get it.   Nobody else cared and he’d spend full time hours looking into it.  
 

He loved to compete WAY more than most.   
 

And he had(has) demons that would get in the way sometimes.  Phil was good at getting more good years out of him in the middle of his spiral.  

If you produce, like LT, show up for practice hung over and handcuffed in a police car, such is life.

If you're at the end of the bench or JAG, you better be on time and be there every day for meetings, lifiting and practice. 

Rodman produced. You could let him do stupid things as long as he showed up when the game started. Lots of old guy hoops coaches, like Bobby Knight or my dad (an old CYO coach) , even with all the tats and weidness, loved his game. But when BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant started running their mouths, get lost. 

Again; case in point; JFM has done NOTHING since he got the big contract. His penalty was monumentally inexcusably stupid. His cap number is ridiculous for a guy that is on his best day replacement level. And Saleh did....NOTHING. 

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The pillars of a successful business or team are built upon the foundation of:

1. Ownership and their commitment.

2. Leadership and their competency.

3. Culture and being pervasive and steadfast in building that.

But it all has to start with number 1. And the Jets do not have that strong owner that knows how to build an organization. 

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24 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Culture; JFM should have benched after that iditotic penalty. And damn the cap money, cut after the game . Instead he barey missed a snap.

Cmon, yes it hurt the team , but as personal fouls go that was pretty ticky tack . He's falling forward and clearly braces his hand outside Burrows body .  If that had been on a Jets QB I doubt it even gets called. 

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Just now, 56mehl56 said:

Cmon, yes it hurt the team , but as personal fouls go that was pretty ticky tack . He's falling forward and clearly braces his hand outside Burrows body .  If that had been on a Jets QB I doubt it even gets called. 

Agree to disagree. Was a huge play that shifted the entire game. Gets called 100% of the time. if you aren't smart enough to know the game situation there, that's on you. 

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6 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Agree to disagree. Was a huge play that shifted the entire game. Gets called 100% of the time. if you aren't smart enough to know the game situation there, that's on you. 

I watched the replay 20 times , watch where JFM's hand comes down , he's trying to brace himself from not falling on Burrow with full body weight. When 300 lb guys are falling its not like they can do a Matrix like move and avoid the QB. Either make hitting the QB illegal outright or call penalties equally. 

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A good roster and changed culture mean nothing when players are directed and schemed to do stupid things on every play.

That is the only difference.  Heading into this season, I was still very skeptical of this defense despite the infusion of talent due to this CS’s schemes/play calling.  Unfortunately I was right to be skeptical.

Our defense is offensive.

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9 hours ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Incorrect.   Couldn’t be more wrong about this and took your thought and argument off the right line.  
 

Dennis loved ball and rebounding especially.  He was passionate about it and spent hours looking at where on the rim different guys tended to hit and watched tape about how to tip the ball away from others and keep it alive until he could get it.   Nobody else cared and he’d spend full time hours looking into it.  
 

He loved to compete WAY more than most.   
 

And he had(has) demons that would get in the way sometimes.  Phil was good at getting more good years out of him in the middle of his spiral.  

Not by Saleh’s definition

He defines “loving ball” as “doing everything you can to protect it” and being a “pro’s pro”

Going AWOL on your team deep into the playoffs doesn’t exactly meet that criteria bro 

Rodman was just a random off the cuff example anyway  

There are plenty of successful athletes who don’t “love” their sport

Andre Agassi hated tennis

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