2nd Year Quarterbacks Week 4 performances

[Dcat]

9 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

 

Not the best QB draft class we've seen in a few decades, is it?

[Dcat]

8 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I never reference QBR, but it’s honestly extremely hard to find a metric out there that makes Zach look good. 

Doing all this after an improved and promising Zach Wilson performance is pure trolling.  I guess you find humor in it.  You know what.... ?  you might want to consider STFU as an option sometimes.  Smart trolls know when to shut up.

[Dcat]

50 minutes ago, tfine said:

Anytime a young QB lead his team in a 4th quarter comeback...is huge. HUGE. Especially when he has not played a game since last year. 

^Many members here fail to understand this simple and accurate statement.  Instead we deal with our very own Jets fan trolls on the night of and the morning after.

[Long Island Leprechaun]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Zach’s competition is all QB’s, not just 2nd year QB’s. Limiting the comparison to just this week is also a bit artificial as well. 
 

With that said, my view of yesterday hasn’t changed. Zach was very impressive at times, especially late in the game. But his flaws right now are obvious as well, and hopefully Zach and the Jets are working hard to fix them, and not taking the victory Lap many posters seem be on right now…

I agree with you, but I think for many here the victory lap is for, well, a victory. Wasn't pretty, was come from behind, but a victory. And Wilson deserves credit for substantially contributing to that come-back and win. Next week will likely be back down to earth against a very good Dolphin team, but it seems too many posters here have become completely traumatized and unable to enjoy the moment. That's pretty sad. 

[FidelioJet]

 

[nycdan]

2 hours ago, Bugg said:

Wilson deserves accolades for a great 4th quarter. As a team though you cannot expect to pull games out by playing 1 good quarter of football when the opponent makes catastrophic blunders. Bad teams like the Browns or rookie QBs like Pickett may give you that chance. Better teams, not gonna happen. Still, in both cases the brass ring got grabbed. Facing 2 teams over the next 2 weeks with QB issues; take advantage. 

One thing we need to see is Wilson hit receivers in stride, especially Garrett Wilson. This kid is special, and if you don't use him more effectively you're costing yourself opportunities. 

Funny thing is, you just exactly described the sport of Basketball

 

[Shelbyblue]

In Field’s defense, they gave him nothing to work with it’s amazing they won two games.

[maury77]

7 hours ago, August said:

The bs ESPN stat or the real QBR stat? 

It is the ESPN stat. According to the real traditional QB rating, this is how the second year QBs did yesterday:

Davis Mills - 88.5

https://www.nfl.com/players/davis-mills/stats/

Trevor Lawrence - 84.3

https://www.nfl.com/players/trevor-lawrence/stats/

Justin Fields - 76.7

https://www.nfl.com/players/justin-fields/stats/

Zach Wilson - 59

https://www.nfl.com/players/zach-wilson/stats/

 

Why can't we acknowledge that he was bad for most of the game yet he was good when it mattered most and hopefully he can build off of it? The way some on the board are calling him the next Marino, a star in the making, etc. is just just way too over the top and it makes me question your credibility when you make any other points. 

 

[maury77]

18 minutes ago, Shelbyblue said:

In Field’s defense, they gave him nothing to work with it’s amazing they won two games.

I'm one of the biggest Fields supporters here, but I just don't think he has what it takes. He's a very smart kid, but he either processes way too slow or he still hasn't come to grips that he is not an alpha level athlete compared to everyone else in the NFL the way he did in the past and he has to learn to get to the dump off faster. He's still trying to hit too many home runs. 

[PolarBear]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The guy that is consistently not good is Fields.

This year: 

121, 70, 106, 174 yards

8,7,8,11 completions.

Fields is in a tough spot. The talent around him is horrible and the regime that drafted him is no longer there. Doesn’t seem as if these guys have any interest in developing him as they never let him throw. 
 

Yesterday he had 22 PA which is a season high. 

[Warfish]

40 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

I agree with you, but I think for many here the victory lap is for, well, a victory. Wasn't pretty, was come from behind, but a victory.

Absolutely.  I can't tell you how happy I am about beating Pittsburgh.  The DC area is infested with their fans, lol (several of whom are my friends, and never let me live down how bad we are over time vs Pitts).  Trust me, I'm ecstatic today about the win.

40 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

And Wilson deserves credit for substantially contributing to that come-back and win.

Absolutely, his 4th quarter (supported by great efforts in the running game) was the difference maker.

40 minutes ago, Long Island Leprechaun said:

Next week will likely be back down to earth against a very good Dolphin team, but it seems too many posters here have become completely traumatized and unable to enjoy the moment. That's pretty sad. 

I don't think it's that, I think several posters (and I'll be honest, mostly on the homer/pro-Zach-is-a-FQB side of the debates) are a bit hypocritical when it comes to Zach.  When Zach plays poorly or is hurt, it's "give him time, you can't judge yet, takes three years, just wait, and see what happens, etc" but the second he has a single good quarter (i.e. the 4th quarter yesterday), not even a good game just a quarter, and it's an endless assortment of threads taking victory laps about being "right" about Zach, and telling anyone who ever posted a critical word about Zach to "bite it/suck it/eat crow/go away/not allowed to enjoy the win" or the like.  All that "it takes time" is out the window, along with any rational evaluations, as any good play seems to warrant the victory laps and attacks on other posters.  /shrug.

 

[batman10023]

10 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The guy that is consistently not good is Fields.

This year: 

121, 70, 106, 174 yards

8,7,8,11 completions.

this is a big surprise to me.  i wanted zach over him but i thought he would do much better than this.

[SuicidalSince98]

30 minutes ago, maury77 said:

It is the ESPN stat. According to the real traditional QB rating, this is how the second year QBs did yesterday:

Davis Mills - 88.5

https://www.nfl.com/players/davis-mills/stats/

Trevor Lawrence - 84.3

https://www.nfl.com/players/trevor-lawrence/stats/

Justin Fields - 76.7

https://www.nfl.com/players/justin-fields/stats/

Zach Wilson - 59

https://www.nfl.com/players/zach-wilson/stats/

 

Why can't we acknowledge that he was bad for most of the game yet he was good when it mattered most and hopefully he can build off of it? The way some on the board are calling him the next Marino, a star in the making, etc. is just just way too over the top and it makes me question your credibility when you make any other points. 

 

Because QB rating is entire reliant on comp % and Wilson had 3 balls hit received in the hands/stomach dropped and has 5 throw aways.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Absolutely.  I can't tell you how happy I am about beating Pittsburgh.  The DC area is infested with their fans, lol (several of whom are my friends, and never let me live down how bad we are over time vs Pitts).  Trust me, I'm ecstatic today about the win.

Absolutely, his 4th quarter (supported by great efforts in the running game) was the difference maker.

I don't think it's that, I think several posters (and I'll be honest, mostly on the homer/pro-Zach-is-a-FQB side of the debates) are a bit hypocritical when it comes to Zach.  When Zach plays poorly or is hurt, it's "give him time, you can't judge yet, takes three years, just wait, and see what happens, etc" but the second he has a single good quarter (i.e. the 4th quarter yesterday), not even a good game just a quarter, and it's an endless assortment of threads taking victory laps about being "right" about Zach, and telling anyone who ever posted a critical word about Zach to "bite it/suck it/eat crow/go away/not allowed to enjoy the win" or the like.  All that "it takes time" is out the window, along with any rational evaluations, as any good play seems to warrant the victory laps and attacks on other posters.  /shrug.

 

I don't think its time to get out any anointing oil yet, but I do think he showed signs of why he deserves a little bit of patience to see how this year plays out and if he can string together more good performances than bad, and show he is trending in the right direction for next year. He will absollutely have sh*t games this year, and everyone will absolutely be screaming for Mike White or Steveler, hopefully he has more good games and good moments than bad. 

He has a very strong arm, very good mobility, and he showed signs of accuracy under pressure and balls, as well as good escabability to avoid sacks many qb's can't escape. 

He also showed some questionable passes at times, and maybe some not good reeds. He was under immense pressure 2/3's of the game, and overcame a lot of bad penalties.

Anyone anointing him a FQB is premature, but I do think he showed why he should get this year to see what the end of the year looks like, can he stay healthy, and can he show more good than bad, who knows, but I hope so.

[OtherwiseHappyinLife]

10 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

It really is starting to seem that way. I thought he would be decent. Nagy’s days seem numbered. 
 

EDIT: damn. I forgot Nagy was already gone. Maybe the next guys days are numbered as well. lol 

Or you might be anticipating that they hire Nagy again, only for his days to be numbered again.

 

[#27TheDominator]

8 hours ago, JoeWillieWhiteShoesHOF said:

Heard that for Wilson’s perfect 4th Qtr he racked a 138 QBR, then you look at the final number you wouldn’t have a clue what he did with the game on the line.  I don’t like the metric at all either.

Pretty sure that is literally the worst reason to dislike QBR.  I am pretty sure that the sole purpose of QBR is to put more emphasis on times then the game is in doubt and prevent guys from having a bloated figure from garbage time success against prevent.  The fact that Zach's overall QBR is still that low is an indicator of just how bad he was earlier.

[Warfish]

All 2nd Year QB's so far in 2022:

1. Lawrence:  4 Starts, 88 for 134, 65.7% comp, 946 passing yards (236.5 YPG), 8 TD:2 INT, 4 Fumbles, Sacked 6 times, 99.9 QB Rating

2. Wilson: 1 Start, 18 for 36, 50% comp., 252 passing yards (252 YPG), 1 TD:2 INT, 0 Fumbles, Sacked 1 time, 59.0 QB Rating, (was Hurt)

3. Lance:  2 Starts, 15 for 31, 48.4% comp., 194 passing yards (97.0 YPG), 0 TD:1 INT, 1 Fumble, Sacked 2 times, 55.0 QB Rating, (now Hurt).

4. Fields:  4 Starts, 34 for 67, 50.7% comp., 471 passing yards (117.8 YPG), 2 TD:4 INT, 4 Fumbles, Sacked 16 times (wow), 58.7 QB Rating

5. Jones:  3 Starts, 64 for 97, 66.0% comp., 786 passing yards (262.0 YPG), 2 TD:5 INT, 1 Fumble, Sacked 5 times, 76.2 QB Rating, (now Hurt).

6. Trask:  Lol, nope.

7. Mond:  Lol, nope.

8. Mills:  4 Starts, 88 for 142, 62.0% comp., 908 passing yards (227.0 YPG), 5 TD:4 INT, 4 Fumbles, Sacked 11 times, 80.4 QB Rating

When you look at the full season, it's much harder to portray Zach as being the best of the group.  Lawrence is clearly in the lead (his mass fumbling yesterday notwithstanding), 100% availability, and effective QB play, followed by Mills (also 100% availability, on maybe the 2nd worst team on this list behind poor Fields and his Bears).

The rest, wow, not so great overall.  But Zach in 2022 may be the best of the rest.  Lance and Fields look horrid (and one is hurt).  Even Jones looks pretty bad, and a 2:5 TD:INT is horrid.

I think it's fair to give Zach a solid 3rd place right now for 2nd year QB's overall.  With plenty to build on from the 4th quarter yesterday as he moves on to his 2nd game and beyond.

[nj meadowlands]

10 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I never reference QBR, but it’s honestly extremely hard to find a metric out there that makes Zach look good. 

2022 W-L record boom 

[Warfish]

16 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't think its time to get out any anointing oil yet, but I do think he showed signs of why he deserves a little bit of patience to see how this year plays out and if he can string together more good performances than bad, and show he is trending in the right direction for next year. He will absollutely have sh*t games this year, and everyone will absolutely be screaming for Mike White or Steveler, hopefully he has more good games and good moments than bad. 

He has a very strong arm, very good mobility, and he showed signs of accuracy under pressure and balls, as well as good escabability to avoid sacks many qb's can't escape. 

He also showed some questionable passes at times, and maybe some not good reeds. He was under immense pressure 2/3's of the game, and overcame a lot of bad penalties.

Anyone anointing him a FQB is premature, but I do think he showed why he should get this year to see what the end of the year looks like, can he stay healthy, and can he show more good than bad, who knows, but I hope so.

As I said last night, he was actually very, very good yesterday in some aspects of his game, and especially in the 4th quarter with the game on the line.  Not going to repeat everything I wrote then (it's there if you're interested), but his strengths being missile-passes in the mid-range and scrambling/escapabillity.  But his major flaws were also very much on display as well, incredibly poor short-range accuracy/touch and holding the ball for far too long on many plays (requiring him to use that exceptional escapabillity too often).

I, for one, don't want to bench him today (as I did with Flacco most weeks, lol).  I want to see more vs. the Dolphins.

But to flog yesterday in a way to try and victory lap or exclude other fans is just a bit much IMO.

 

[maury77]

32 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Because QB rating is entire reliant on comp % and Wilson had 3 balls hit received in the hands/stomach dropped and has 5 throw aways.

And no other QBs had drops and throw aways? They all do just like all QBs have almost interceptions that don't count.

[August]

1 hour ago, maury77 said:

It is the ESPN stat. According to the real traditional QB rating, this is how the second year QBs did yesterday:

Davis Mills - 88.5

https://www.nfl.com/players/davis-mills/stats/

Trevor Lawrence - 84.3

https://www.nfl.com/players/trevor-lawrence/stats/

Justin Fields - 76.7

https://www.nfl.com/players/justin-fields/stats/

Zach Wilson - 59

https://www.nfl.com/players/zach-wilson/stats/

 

Why can't we acknowledge that he was bad for most of the game yet he was good when it mattered most and hopefully he can build off of it? The way some on the board are calling him the next Marino, a star in the making, etc. is just just way too over the top and it makes me question your credibility when you make any other points. 

 

People just want to give him props and I get that. 

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, nj meadowlands said:

2022 W-L record boom 

You can’t do better than .1000, Tom! ?

[SuicidalSince98]

2 minutes ago, maury77 said:

And no other QBs had drops and throw aways? They all do just like all QBs have almost interceptions that don't count.

Combination 8 drop/throw away is certainly not normal 

[GreenFish]

Went back and watched the game again. The condensed replay saves a lot of time.

Seeing us fall behind a team we clearly were better than and watching Zach miss a few throws plus that 1st INT,  had me really frustrated. We were giving that game away.

He played better than I gave him credit for.

Going to just take his development in stride going forward. He clearly has talent. Missing short throws is immensely frustrating. It’s, if he can just clean that up, then…. But….

He was great in the 4th quarter. That throw to the right sideline over Minkah was great.

[Augustiniak]

5 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

Went back and watched the game again. The condensed replay saves a lot of time.

Seeing us fall behind a team we clearly were better than and watching Zach miss a few throws plus that 1st INT,  had me really frustrated. We were giving that game away.

He played better than I gave him credit for.

Going to just take his development in stride going forward. He clearly has talent. Missing short throws is immensely frustrating. It’s, if he can just clean that up, then…. But….

He was great in the 4th quarter. That throw to the right sideline over Minkah was great.

The game should not have been as close, the jets should have been up 13-3 at the half.  

[tommyduhamelshouse]

11 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

 

i am over this argument

i just care about our kid.

[IndianaJet]

11 hours ago, jetstream23 said:

 

 

11 hours ago, T0mShane said:

 

11 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I get what you’re saying and I don’t like QBR either, but I’m pretty sure they’ve tweaked it since then so that outliers like this are less frequent. 

 

9 hours ago, August said:

The bs ESPN stat or the real QBR stat? 

 

9 hours ago, Kevin L said:

I don't disagree, but Roethlisberger won a Super Bowl with a 22.6 QBR.

Daniel Jones was 8 for 13 for 71 yds, no TDs, no INTs yesterday.

He led the league in QBR yesterday at 92.3

 

[cat999]

38 minutes ago, Warfish said:

As I said last night, he was actually very, very good yesterday in some aspects of his game, and especially in the 4th quarter with the game on the line.  Not going to repeat everything I wrote then (it's there if you're interested), but his strengths being missile-passes in the mid-range and scrambling/escapabillity.  But his major flaws were also very much on display as well, incredibly poor short-range accuracy/touch and holding the ball for far too long on many plays (requiring him to use that exceptional escapabillity too often).

I, for one, don't want to bench him today (as I did with Flacco most weeks, lol).  I want to see more vs. the Dolphins.

But to flog yesterday in a way to try and victory lap or exclude other fans is just a bit much IMO.

 

Agree it's way too early to take a victory lap, but it's completely understandable why Jet fans on a Jets message board are responding to all the Zach hate that has been plaguing this board for months.

[Lith]

12 hours ago, Beerfish said:

The guy that is consistently not good is Fields.

This year: 

121, 70, 106, 174 yards

8,7,8,11 completions.

As I told my Bear fan friends a year ago, any QB that I think is going to be really good coming out of college is likely to suck.  I apologized to them back then, and I need to do it again now.

Justin Fields is about to be added to a long list of QB busts that I have really liked, including Paxton Lynch, Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Connor Cook, Carson Wentz and Luke Falk.  

Best thing Zach has going for him is I didn't like him coming out of college, which puts him in a class with Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Tua, Jalen Hurts, Patrick Mahomes and Deshaun Watson.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

56 minutes ago, Warfish said:

As I said last night, he was actually very, very good yesterday in some aspects of his game, and especially in the 4th quarter with the game on the line.  Not going to repeat everything I wrote then (it's there if you're interested), but his strengths being missile-passes in the mid-range and scrambling/escapabillity.  But his major flaws were also very much on display as well, incredibly poor short-range accuracy/touch and holding the ball for far too long on many plays (requiring him to use that exceptional escapabillity too often).

I, for one, don't want to bench him today (as I did with Flacco most weeks, lol).  I want to see more vs. the Dolphins.

But to flog yesterday in a way to try and victory lap or exclude other fans is just a bit much IMO.

 

I think I am saying the exact same thing. In no way should anyone be taking a victory lap or serving up crow in either direction, however, I assure you if he has a bad game there will be as much or more crow being pushed in the opposite direction.

IMO, if ZW didnt have the arm, excapability, and show some balls, its a lot easier to write him off after a few bad performances. The reason he was drafted where he was, was not becuase he was a finished product and ready to step in and be the guy on day 1, it was becuase of his upside. I see his upside, now, whether or not he can achieve it is what we need to figure out, and that is not going to be on a game by game basis, it will be on a collection of games. 

I see people trying to throw the Rosen example out, and IMO its a really, really bad comparison. Rosen was drafted high for 1 reason, and 1 reason only, he was seen as a guy who could step in run an NFL offense efficiently on day 1. He did not have a great arm, or great mobility, and his leadership qualities were highly questioned. So when he came in and had no ability to run an NFL offense, and you saw the other downsides, it was a lot easier to dump someone like him than someone who shows legit NFL arm strength and some nice athleticism to go along with it. 

Its possible to cut down on mistakes, its possible to improve some footwork in certain situations, will he, who knwos, but with this team its worth the season ti find out and both sides should hold off on conclusions game by game or even worse quarter by quarter

[kdels62]

2 hours ago, maury77 said:

I'm one of the biggest Fields supporters here, but I just don't think he has what it takes. He's a very smart kid, but he either processes way too slow or he still hasn't come to grips that he is not an alpha level athlete compared to everyone else in the NFL the way he did in the past and he has to learn to get to the dump off faster. He's still trying to hit too many home runs. 

It hurts real bad. I thought he was gonna be a able to rely on his athleticism to help him navigate the speed change in game speed but it hasn't happened. On the other hand, I did not expect Zach Wilson's athletic ability to be as important as it was on Sunday. He seems genuinely tough to bring down in small areas. 

I don't think the story is written on Wilson and the end product is still off in the distance, but Fields feels like he's hurdling towards being a bust and I really didn't see it coming. 

[peekskill68]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

Zach’s competition is all QB’s, not just 2nd year QB’s. Limiting the comparison to just this week is also a bit artificial as well. 
 

With that said, my view of yesterday hasn’t changed. Zach was very impressive at times, especially late in the game. But his flaws right now are obvious as well, and hopefully Zach and the Jets are working hard to fix them, and not taking the victory Lap many posters seem be on right now…

Good post.  When you watch him, his release reminds me of Marino.  The ball just gets out of his hand to the receiver so quickly.  But he needs to process the field faster and eliminate the handful of boneheaded throws he continues to make.  

[maury77]

3 hours ago, kdels62 said:

It hurts real bad. I thought he was gonna be a able to rely on his athleticism to help him navigate the speed change in game speed but it hasn't happened. On the other hand, I did not expect Zach Wilson's athletic ability to be as important as it was on Sunday. He seems genuinely tough to bring down in small areas. 

I don't think the story is written on Wilson and the end product is still off in the distance, but Fields feels like he's hurdling towards being a bust and I really didn't see it coming. 

Fields's speed rarely gets utilized because it takes him a few steps to build up speed and he isn't elusive. If you give him a few steps he can blow by you, but I think there is an argument that Wilson's athleticism (more twitchy, less long distance speed) is more useful at the pro level. 

Whenever I have some free time (LMAO) I'd like to start a thread on the 2021 class to see what we missed on the various prospects. 

[maury77]

3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I think I am saying the exact same thing. In no way should anyone be taking a victory lap or serving up crow in either direction, however, I assure you if he has a bad game there will be as much or more crow being pushed in the opposite direction.

IMO, if ZW didnt have the arm, excapability, and show some balls, its a lot easier to write him off after a few bad performances. The reason he was drafted where he was, was not becuase he was a finished product and ready to step in and be the guy on day 1, it was becuase of his upside. I see his upside, now, whether or not he can achieve it is what we need to figure out, and that is not going to be on a game by game basis, it will be on a collection of games. 

I see people trying to throw the Rosen example out, and IMO its a really, really bad comparison. Rosen was drafted high for 1 reason, and 1 reason only, he was seen as a guy who could step in run an NFL offense efficiently on day 1. He did not have a great arm, or great mobility, and his leadership qualities were highly questioned. So when he came in and had no ability to run an NFL offense, and you saw the other downsides, it was a lot easier to dump someone like him than someone who shows legit NFL arm strength and some nice athleticism to go along with it. 

Its possible to cut down on mistakes, its possible to improve some footwork in certain situations, will he, who knwos, but with this team its worth the season ti find out and both sides should hold off on conclusions game by game or even worse quarter by quarter

I agree that Rosen is a bad comparison for Wilson. Play wise, Wilson reminds me of Manziel without the drug habit (although Wilson has a better arm while Manziel was more mobile). 

[New York Mick]

All the other second your quarterbacks sucking doesn’t make Zach Wilson any better. If he played like sh*t he played like sh*t.