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7 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I was, originally, just going to post the stats and avoid the bait, but I gotta say, this place is the only place I’m seeing anyone somehow try to spin these numbers into anything remotely close to what you are trying to do.  Rewatching the tape will tell you that a lot of the time there was nothing there when he managed to scramble out of chaos, hence the throwaways and, in turn, low completion percentage. The line has been decimated by injury, the RG & RT were atrocious yesterday, consistently getting beat in both pass or run, hence the scrambles and lack of running game.  Strictly speaking in regards to pass-pro, Zach’s ability to extend plays clearly saved them from grading out worse than they did.  Flacco or White would have been absolutely murdered yesterday and we certainly wouldn’t be seeing an avg. time to throw off 3.29 seconds.  Full stop.  You know it, I know it, the world knows it.  AVT playing well as an emergency LT was, honestly, the only bright spot from that unit.  Well that, and Laken Tomlinson probably playing his best game of the year so far (probably because he had a decent LT for once this season).  So no, there’s really nothing weird about what Rosenblatt and the rest of the beat concluded if you watched the game from start to finish.  If you really want to sit here and tell me you thought the OL was actually honky-dory yesterday, and Zach just didn’t take advantage of good enough protection, I don’t know what else to tell you.  Literally, the only time they looked functional was the 4th quarter and Wilson proceeded to go 10/12 for 128 + a TD, while the running game suddenly came alive.

I’d agree with you (somewhat) if this wasn’t a longstanding issue with Wilson. Fifth in the league last year (among guys with significant snaps) and he’s #3 this year. The numbers say he’s bad when pressured and bad against the blitz. His 10 for 12 fourth quarter came with both Steelers pass rushers and 3/4ths of their starting secondary on the bench with injuries. Coincidentally, Zach’s time to throw dropped to 2.48 when that happened. This offense isn’t designed to hang onto the ball. Garopollo is consistently top five in quickest time to throw. The top ten in that stat is pretty much all elite players (and Jimmy): Brady, Rodgers, Dak, Stafford. Trevor Lawrence is there this year. 

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7 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Strictly speaking in regards to pass-pro, Zach’s ability to extend plays clearly saved them from grading out worse than they did.

This is also not true. Ask any OL if they’d rather pass protect for two second or 3.30 seconds. Zach’s initial impulse is always to bail to his right. Coincidentally, his RG and RT end up with bad pass blocking grades. The league is chock filled with guys who can pass block for two seconds. Guys who can hold up for 3.3 end up in the Hall of Fame. This ain’t rocket science.

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9 hours ago, Mogglez said:

I was, originally, just going to post the stats and avoid the bait, but I gotta say, this place is the only place I’m seeing anyone somehow try to spin these numbers into anything remotely close to what you are trying to do.  Rewatching the tape will tell you that a lot of the time there was nothing there when he managed to scramble out of chaos, hence the throwaways and, in turn, low completion percentage. The line has been decimated by injury, the RG & RT were atrocious yesterday, consistently getting beat in both pass or run, hence the scrambles and lack of running game.  Strictly speaking in regards to pass-pro, Zach’s ability to extend plays clearly saved them from grading out worse than they did.  Flacco or White would have been absolutely murdered yesterday and we certainly wouldn’t be seeing an avg. time to throw off 3.29 seconds.  Full stop.  You know it, I know it, the world knows it.  AVT playing well as an emergency LT was, honestly, the only bright spot from that unit.  Well that, and Laken Tomlinson probably playing his best game of the year so far (probably because he had a decent LT for once this season).  So no, there’s really nothing weird about what Rosenblatt and the rest of the beat concluded if you watched the game from start to finish.  If you really want to sit here and tell me you thought the OL was actually honky-dory yesterday, and Zach just didn’t take advantage of good enough protection, I don’t know what else to tell you.  Literally, the only time they looked functional was the 4th quarter and Wilson proceeded to go 10/12 for 128 + a TD, while the running game suddenly came alive.

Would have to break down the plays to see if he had open receivers and didn't see them while scrambling. Recall seeing that on 1 play, that did happen. But damn if I can say that was the case on other occasions or how many times. 

Again, Wilson had an incredible 4th quarter. Needs to be more consistent. 

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3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I’d agree with you (somewhat) if this wasn’t a longstanding issue with Wilson. Fifth in the league last year (among guys with significant snaps) and he’s #3 this year. The numbers say he’s bad when pressured and bad against the blitz. His 10 for 12 fourth quarter came with both Steelers pass rushers and 3/4ths of their starting secondary on the bench with injuries. Coincidentally, Zach’s time to throw dropped to 2.48 when that happened. This offense isn’t designed to hang onto the ball. Garopollo is consistently top five in quickest time to throw. The top ten in that stat is pretty much all elite players (and Jimmy): Brady, Rodgers, Dak, Stafford. Trevor Lawrence is there this year. 

 

3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

This is also not true. Ask any OL if they’d rather pass protect for two second or 3.30 seconds. Zach’s initial impulse is always to bail to his right. Coincidentally, his RG and RT end up with bad pass blocking grades. The league is chock filled with guys who can pass block for two seconds. Guys who can hold up for 3.3 end up in the Hall of Fame. This ain’t rocket science.

Dude, the line didn’t play well Sunday, just like they haven’t played well all year.  Most of the time I’d go back and forth and entertain this, but I’m not going there this time.  It’s just not worth it.  Especially when I can see you’re going to carry on with a ridiculous “the Steelers stopped trying in the 4th quarter” narrative too.  

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6 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 

Dude, the line didn’t play well Sunday, just like they haven’t played well all year.  Most of the time I’d go back and forth and entertain this, but I’m not going there this time. It’s just not worth it.  Especially when I can see you’re starting to carry on with a ridiculous “the Steelers stopped trying in the 4th quarter” narrative too.

Gonna need a better more complete effort. You cannot expect the Browns DC will blow deep safety prevent coverage or Kenny Pickett will throw an idiotic pick every week. Good to be game when your oppoent screw the pooch, but that isn't a gameplan. Dolphins without Tua or Pats on QB3, those should be winnable games. 

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35 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Gonna need a better more complete effort. You cannot expect the Browns DC will blow deep safety prevent coverage or Kenny Pickett will throw an idiotic pick every week. Good to be game when your oppoent screw the pooch, but that isn't a gameplan. Dolphins without Tua or Pats on QB3, those should be winnable games. 

That’s fine, I can agree with that.  At the end of the day though, they baited Pickett into the throw, and the Offense moved the ball in the fourth, despite the Steelers efforts to not allow them to do that, so I do take issue with the notion that the Steelers peeled off or stopped trying and that we should feel lucky, like the Browns game.  They were throwing towards the end because they needed a TD to put the Jets away entirely.  Pickett threw an INT.

Minkah came off for injury because he had trouble covering a WR and pulled/reaggravated something.

Hayward came off because of injury while trying to get to Zach, but that didn’t stop them from blitzing on critical third downs.

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11 hours ago, T0mShane said:

That’s a weird conclusion because holding the ball longer only increases the amount of pressure the quarterback sees. High time to throw is reserved for QBs who scramble a lot (Hurts, Lamar, etc) or guys who struggle to make pre-snap reads. Zach was sixth last year in time to throw, after Trey Lance, Jameis, Hurts, Fields, and Lamar. This year, he’s currently #3 behind Fields and Bridgewater. This is not good for a QB who isn’t running the ball a lot and also isn’t using that extra second to get the ball deep. It’s just the mark of a dude who doesn’t know what he’s doing. 

I wondered why this was the case for 3 quarters in Pitt, then in the 4th, he became a magical decision maker.
 

Still am, something happened.

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3 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I’d agree with you (somewhat) if this wasn’t a longstanding issue with Wilson. Fifth in the league last year (among guys with significant snaps) and he’s #3 this year. The numbers say he’s bad when pressured and bad against the blitz. His 10 for 12 fourth quarter came with both Steelers pass rushers and 3/4ths of their starting secondary on the bench with injuries. Coincidentally, Zach’s time to throw dropped to 2.48 when that happened. This offense isn’t designed to hang onto the ball. Garopollo is consistently top five in quickest time to throw. The top ten in that stat is pretty much all elite players (and Jimmy): Brady, Rodgers, Dak, Stafford. Trevor Lawrence is there this year. 

Wilson has never stayed healthy long enough for us the give those stats enough weight but in your role as the official contrarian, all of what you say suggests the possibility for legitimate concern. In brief moments he provides rarified windows of talent but all that extending plays will tempt injury fate. Can he stay healthy that long with a makeshift OL?

Yes, the offense is designed to get rid of the ball quickly. He has to improve quickly on that but the oline implosion does provide a built in excuse.

For me, what stands out is the interceptions. He cleaned up his interceptions after his return last year. With even average play at QB, the Jets and Wison can possibly ride an improving defense to more wins. PFF suggests he had 4 turnover worthy plays in the Steelers game, most of it coming under pressure. Can the  Jets current oline give him enough time to cut down on mistakes?

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57 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 

Dude, the line didn’t play well Sunday, just like they haven’t played well all year.  Most of the time I’d go back and forth and entertain this, but I’m not going there this time.  It’s just not worth it.  Especially when I can see you’re going to carry on with a ridiculous “the Steelers stopped trying in the 4th quarter” narrative too.  

Look @TomShane is the only one I'll get into this nonsense with.  

He knows - just having some fun.

  1. Zach's high time to throw number was CLEARLY due to his scrambling.  There really is no question about it.  He watched the game and anyone watching the game knows that.
  2. Zach's low completion % was due to him throwing a lot of balls away and not taking Sacks.  I suspect there were times he could have made a play - but he played smart and didn't force anything.  He'll start making more of these plays once he builds his confidence.  
  3. The OL was mostly bad. 
  4. The Steelers are a proud team, playing at home and played their asses off in the 4th quarter.  Zach picked them a part - using the traits that made him the #2 overall pick.  He didn't carry them with trick plays, or a couple of blown coverages or dump offs that went for 50 yards.  He made big time NFL throws, with his quick releases, big arm and tremendous accuracy (while quickly and cleanly going through his progressions)  on 3rd and 4th down.  Tom knows that.

With that said - Zach still has a lot of work to do.  He did, at times, seem to hold the ball longer that I would have liked, he sill missed a couple of easier throws that plagued him early last year.   

 

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36 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Look @TomShane is the only one I'll get into this nonsense with.  

He knows - just having some fun.

  1. Zach's high time to throw number was CLEARLY due to his scrambling.  There really is no question about it.  He watched the game and anyone watching the game knows that.
  2. Zach's low completion % was due to him throwing a lot of balls away and not taking Sacks.  I suspect there were times he could have made a play - but he played smart and didn't force anything.  He'll start making more of these plays once he builds his confidence.  
  3. The OL was mostly bad. 
  4. The Steelers are a proud team, playing at home and played their asses off in the 4th quarter.  Zach picked them a part - using the traits that made him the #2 overall pick.  He didn't carry them with trick plays, or a couple of blown coverages or dump offs that went for 50 yards.  He made big time NFL throws, with his quick releases, big arm and tremendous accuracy (while quickly and cleanly going through his progressions)  on 3rd and 4th down.  Tom knows that.

With that said - Zach still has a lot of work to do.  He did, at times, seem to hold the ball longer that I would have liked, he sill missed a couple of easier throws that plagued him early last year.   

 

Pretty much all of this.  I said it in the Gameday thread when I finally got to post my thoughts:

Zach was up and down.

The line was awful.

The run game was almost non-existent until the end of the game.

Pass catchers had a mostly clean game, but Garrett Wilson and Tyler Conklin had 3-4 critical drops that crippled drives, and one led to a pick that cost us points.

Those four thing’s definitely play into one-another, so I’m not totally killing him, but I’m not crowning him anything yet either. Yes, there was the growth that I wanted to see on display, and the fourth quarter of that game was, in my eyes, the best football he’s played as a Jet.  If he can continue to shake off the rust and play closer to that, we have something.  That being said, It’s one game of a long season that’s left.

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25 minutes ago, NYJCAP2 said:

I wondered why this was the case for 3 quarters in Pitt, then in the 4th, he became a magical decision maker.
 

Still am, something happened.

I think a couple of things happened.

1) Zach, I'm sure was playing conservatively.  He didn't want to throw a dumb INT, so delayed that .5 second too long (which is what we're talking about here) 

When people talk about "Rust" that's what they're talking about - not missed throws - but the speed of the game takes time to get used to.  

2) IMO, I really don't think this is the best offense for Zach's skill-set.  Basically ML had to throw the game plan out the window and let Zach just throw.  

If Zach can consistently play anywhere near the level of the 4th quarter - we're going to the playoffs this year.  That is a huge IF......As I said, still has A LOT to work on...

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2 hours ago, Mogglez said:

 

Dude, the line didn’t play well Sunday, just like they haven’t played well all year.  Most of the time I’d go back and forth and entertain this, but I’m not going there this time.  It’s just not worth it.  Especially when I can see you’re going to carry on with a ridiculous “the Steelers stopped trying in the 4th quarter” narrative too.  

Two things can be true. One of those things makes the other worse:

1. The line wasn’t great.

2. Zach holds the ball way too long for the types of throws he’s supposed to make. 

It’s not a coincidence that he plays better when he gets rid of the ball on time. I don’t see how this is a controversial point. 

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57 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Look @TomShane is the only one I'll get into this nonsense with.  

He knows - just having some fun.

  1. Zach's high time to throw number was CLEARLY due to his scrambling.  There really is no question about it.  He watched the game and anyone watching the game knows that.
  2. Zach's low completion % was due to him throwing a lot of balls away and not taking Sacks.  I suspect there were times he could have made a play - but he played smart and didn't force anything.  He'll start making more of these plays once he builds his confidence.  
  3. The OL was mostly bad. 
  4. The Steelers are a proud team, playing at home and played their asses off in the 4th quarter.  Zach picked them a part - using the traits that made him the #2 overall pick.  He didn't carry them with trick plays, or a couple of blown coverages or dump offs that went for 50 yards.  He made big time NFL throws, with his quick releases, big arm and tremendous accuracy (while quickly and cleanly going through his progressions)  on 3rd and 4th down.  Tom knows that.

With that said - Zach still has a lot of work to do.  He did, at times, seem to hold the ball longer that I would have liked, he sill missed a couple of easier throws that plagued him early last year.   

 

His best throw was the crosser to Garrett Wilson on third down, out in front of him so he could make a play. It was a shade late, but accurate and it gave Wilson the chance to run after the catch. The best part? Zach showed patience in the pocket to deliver it.

 

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9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

His best throw was the crosser to Garrett Wilson on third down, out in front of him so he could make a play. It was a shade late, but accurate and it gave Wilson the chance to run after the catch. The best part? Zach showed patience in the pocket to deliver it.

 

I personally liked the throw to Davis (the one he actually didn't catch) I thought that was the best throw of the day..

But sure this was a good one too...

btw...How about a Jet team having the wherewithall to actually get up the LOS and snap that ball quickly, not giving the steelers time to review - after the CD catch/drop.... 

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32 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Two things can be true. One of those things makes the other worse:

1. The line wasn’t great.

2. Zach holds the ball way too long for the types of throws he’s supposed to make. 

It’s not a coincidence that he plays better when he gets rid of the ball on time. I don’t see how this is a controversial point. 

Fair enough, I’m glad to see that we’re in agreement with point one, and I can definitely concede a bit for point number two because I agree, there were moments where the ball should have just been delivered quickly or thrown away, as Wilson got in trouble last year with the hero ball, whether it be turnovers, bad sacks, injury, etc.

I think we’re on the same page here then, because I just assumed you were going for the angle that the line played well and everything else was the QBs fault.  That’s my bad.

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4 hours ago, Gangrene said:

Wilson has never stayed healthy long enough for us the give those stats enough weight but in your role as the official contrarian, all of what you say suggests the possibility for legitimate concern. In brief moments he provides rarified windows of talent but all that extending plays will tempt injury fate. Can he stay healthy that long with a makeshift OL?

Yes, the offense is designed to get rid of the ball quickly. He has to improve quickly on that but the oline implosion does provide a built in excuse.

For me, what stands out is the interceptions. He cleaned up his interceptions after his return last year. With even average play at QB, the Jets and Wison can possibly ride an improving defense to more wins. PFF suggests he had 4 turnover worthy plays in the Steelers game, most of it coming under pressure. Can the  Jets current oline give him enough time to cut down on mistakes?

I agree about the injury stuff—he’s a nimble guy, but there’s this weird awkwardness to the way he runs that makes you nervous he’s going to get clipped at some point. I actually don’t mind the INTs as long as they’re coming downfield. He’s got a huge arm with a lot of potential downfield targets. I’d like to see him be aggressive deep as opposed to the dink and dunk guy who finished last season. 

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2 hours ago, Mogglez said:

Fair enough, I’m glad to see that we’re in agreement with point one, and I can definitely concede a bit for point number two because I agree, there were moments where the ball should have just been delivered quickly or thrown away, as Wilson got in trouble last year with the hero ball, whether it be turnovers, bad sacks, injury, etc.

I think we’re on the same page here then, because I just assumed you were going for the angle that the line played well and everything else was the QBs fault.  That’s my bad.

I appreciate the sentiment, but it’s too late. You’re in the “To Be Fistfighted” club with @Gastineau Lives. Train hard, pal.

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3 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

all i know is they need to cut bait with Laken, Becton, and Fant and start over next season.  JD gets a mully sort of I guess here and try again.

 

and McGovern

I agree completely. 

Through bad luck and/or bad judgment the OL is not good now and will not be good next year.

Laken costs $8mm to cut next year and $4mm the year after that.  Brown costs $5mm to cut next year and he is 38 years old.   Fant and McGovern expire and Becton is a wild card.  That is way way too many holes to replace in one year.  I would try and extend McGovern now and roll the dice on the Ts. 

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Just now, varjet said:

I agree completely. 

Through bad luck and/or bad judgment the OL is not good now and will not be good next year.  It is the most expensive OL in the NFL. 

Laken costs $8mm to cut next year and $4mm the year after that.  Brown costs $5mm to cut next year and he is 38 years old.   Fant and McGovern expire and Becton is a wild card.  That is way way too many holes to replace in one year.  I would try and extend McGovern now and roll the dice on the Ts. 

 

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3 minutes ago, varjet said:

I agree completely. 

Through bad luck and/or bad judgment the OL is not good now and will not be good next year.

Laken costs $8mm to cut next year and $4mm the year after that.  Brown costs $5mm to cut next year and he is 38 years old.   Fant and McGovern expire and Becton is a wild card.  That is way way too many holes to replace in one year.  I would try and extend McGovern now and roll the dice on the Ts. 

i tho if they cut after June Laken hit is only 4mm dead cap

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