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Week 5 vs MIA; the cynics thread


Paradis
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45 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

For sure, I think there are a lot of factors and you nailed one of them.  The game is faster than it's ever been therefore the athletes are more high twitch across the field so you have a bunch of lean, low body fat types that I think are a little more injury prone, especially from a non-contact perspective, they play more games, they have less rest with TNF, MNF and SNF and then eventually Saturday games, the camps, I could go on...but w/ all that said, I think that's why you see ugly Football during the 1st quarter of the NFL.  Teams start putting it together and get better as the season goes on.  Perfect example is  Green Bay seemingly ever year.  Or more close to home, look at the Jets OL last year.  Looked to be terrible at the beginning of the season and was by far the best unit on the team at the end of the year. 

 

All of which speaks to the importance of depth of roster. In the past, teams like the Jets were very thin. When a few starters went down, the team was quickly in a shambles. I think Douglas has done a great job of rectifying that issue. 

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14 hours ago, Paradis said:
  • Showing up with a gameplan -- one that is put in motion in the first half of the game. So... a "plan" 
  • Zack doing more than throwing slants vs Man, and Posts vs Zone... let's see some timing routes, outside throws, fades, etc
  • re-read point 3...  DC will already be scheming with that in mind.

I don’t get this, really. My strong preference would be for the LaFluer to be creating a game plan that they feel will work against the fish’s defense. That was Zach’s first game last Sunday, it’s a little early to have to start scouting your own tendencies. 
 
If Miami was full strength, this would easily be the toughest opponent the Jets have faced all year. Even with Tua and the other injuries, they still might be. Divisional games are always hard fought, and Saleh has been making it clear that they need to get off the schneid when it comes to divisional games. There’s pressure, and it’s good pressure. Being only three point underdogs is almost surprising.
 
I think your list is a little ambitious at this stage. First, I’d simply like to see them looking like they came to play following up another emotional win. They were dead flat against Cincy. After that, any way they can snatch a win in this one will bring me great joy. After last year’s 20 game exhibition season, this year is about learning to win. Get comfortable as a team that wins games, then the dominating for 60 minutes will come. 

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13 hours ago, Paradis said:

Foreword: I want to be excited. Objective here isn't find a way around that.  

 

So while many of you have gone through a box of Kleenex this week, here's a list of things i would like to see against MIA to inflate comfort levels from "marginal at best" into "an El Camino with new paint".

  1. Getting a W that isn't a result of broken plays/onside kicks, 4th quarter dramatics; including (but not limited to) opposing QBs handing out interceptions.
  2. Showing up with a gameplan -- one that is put in motion in the first half of the game. So... a "plan" 
  3. Zack doing more than throwing slants vs Man, and Posts vs Zone... let's see some timing routes, outside throws, fades, etc
  4. re-read point 3...  DC will already be scheming with that in mind.
  5. Need more production from the LOS... runs, screens, bubbles, reverses -- that stuff is supposed to be the Flower's butter.
  6.  And god help us if can't dictate the pace of a game for 4 quarters.. [I'll even take 3]... Time of possession, play with lead, make the opponent uncomfortable.. you know, winner stuff. 

 

This is the way,

Fair enough. 

But this is the kind of stuff EVERY team wants. And this is the kind of stuff you simply can't always expect to have week-to-week in the NFL. 

1. A 'W' is' a 'W' and its THE most important thing. Couldn't care less how we get it as long as a bunch of our players don't get hurt. But of course you want to dominate from the start and not rely on broken plays or comebacks or lucky breaks where the opposing QB throws a terrible INT at the most opportune time for your team (Pitt game). 

2. I think a lot of people are ready to 's**t' on Saleh and this coaching staff because of the way they came out early on this season, his inability to adjust at the half, have his team play disciplined football, etc. And a lot of that is fair criticism. But the coaching staff (both defensive and offensive) DOES come out with a gameplan. Whether it looks like it or not based on the execution is another story. I have yet to see a game where the Jets came out and looked like they did not have a gameplan on offense. Or defense for that matter. 

3. Hey man, this is the NFL. You take what defenses give you. Some of the most successful plays in the league right now are slant patterns vs. man and posts vs. zone. I mean, if you are a QB and you see that developing, you hit that all day and you don't worry about anything else. That is what moves the chains, eats clock, tires the opposing defense, and puts you in good down and distance. I get what you are saying about the opposing defense being prepared for it. But the fact is, for the most part they cannot stop it if you have the right players to execute said plays.   

5. I agree. But I would say we see plenty of successful plays like this from the Jets. More would be nice. 

6. THIS is the one point that is 100% on the nose. As cliche as it sounds, you gotta start fast and dictate the pace of the game.  

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4 minutes ago, slats said:

I think your list is a little ambitious at this stage. First, I’d simply like to see them looking like they came to play following up another emotional win. They were dead flat against Cincy. After that, any way they can snatch a win in this one will bring me great joy. After last year’s 20 game exhibition season, this year is about learning to win. Get comfortable as a team that wins games, then the dominating for 60 minutes will come. 

Maybe. But as you said this the biggest game of the season so far. Its at home. The Jets were 0-6 vs the AFCE last season, they lost ALL of their division games. The Dolphins are not just missing Tua, they are missing a number of key starters. There are plenty of veterans on this team that know how to win and if the Jets come out flat and uninspired in this game it will be akin to the coach losing the locker room. So I'm not even thinking about that as a possibility. Just not gonna happen. 

I'm not saying this game will be easy, far from it, but I'm expecting all out war and I'm expecting the Jets to come out with an attitude like they will absolutely crush their opponent.

I'm expecting LaFleur to throw the kitchen sink at the fins, I'm expecting Ulbrich/Saleh to throw in some wrinkles to put Teddy in tough downs and distances. I'm expecting an intense divisional matchup where the Jets are out for blood. 

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13 hours ago, T0mShane said:

The Jets should absolutely win this game. Their vibes have never been better, Zach should have some confidence, they get Duane Brown back, and they’re playing at home. If Saleh’s vision is ever going to be realized, this is the week for it. The Dolphins have all kinds of injury issues, and they’re loaded down with drama from the Tua thing. Ben Solak had a good observation this week: that the one thing the McVay Coaching Tree coaches are consistently good at it is coaching against McVay offensive tendencies. McDaniel may be a genius, but he’s not going to just throw his system away this week to avoid giving Saleh an advantage. On the flip side, the Dolphins defense is supposed to be a bad matchup for Zach Wilson because they play a lot of man to man/Cover One, which Wilson sucked against both last year and against the Steelers. 

someone steal your jetnation sign-on or somethin? predicting a win?

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53 minutes ago, slats said:

I think your list is a little ambitious at this stage. First, I’d simply like to see them looking like they came to play following up another emotional win. They were dead flat against Cincy. After that, any way they can snatch a win in this one will bring me great joy. After last year’s 20 game exhibition season, this year is about learning to win. Get comfortable as a team that wins games, then the dominating for 60 minutes will come. 

That just sounds like a 1950s housewife response.  "Oh i just hope they have fun!"  

It's not too ambitious to want to see some of those things... (which is what i said, SOME)... if Zach can open up the playbook, we play with a lead, dictate the pace of the game (which would imply a "plan") then we inherently as a result don't rely on fluky 4th QT theatrics. 

You're wanting the same thing, showing up for a second week in row, not looking clueless.  We are brothers in this. 

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4 hours ago, JiFapono said:

I'm sure we'd all like to see a complete game from our favorite Football team, lmfao.  but I'm kind of confused by the presentation.  Are you saying you want to see these things because, you havent?

1. I dont think the Jets got lucky vs. the Steelers, they had a half time lead, lost it and went out and earned the chance to get it back.  They were the better team for 3 quarters on Sunday.  

2. The Jets clearly had a plan on Sunday and executed it very well.  It should have been at least, 13-3 at the half, had to have a pretty good plan for those results, no? 

3. He threw to sidelines, hit a nice one to Moore, missed a wheel route, had nice one to Corey that he didnt come down with, but what does it matter?  If they're giving him slants and posts and they're there, take'em.  That's life.  Why force sh*t just because some fan wants to see it?    Take what the D is giving you, win the game.  The mark of a great QB.

4.  okay...?

5.  With all the moving pieces, pretty hard to ask guys playing out of position or who just got here to do stuff they maybe never done before, no?   Besides, is there anyone in the NFL that is 100% happy with their OL play right now?  Doubt it but maybe, I think it's week 4 and teams are still getting better and the Jets are a revolving door right now but yeah, sure, everyone wants to dominate the LOS.

6. And another one, does anyone do this in the NFL?  Other than the Eagles right now, who is going out and dominating 4 quarters of Football?  This isnt college, that sh*t dont happen in the NFL.  It's a war of attrition, last man standing, in a league of parody, nobody dominates 4 quarters of Football. 

 

So it's Lombardi time?

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1 hour ago, PepPep said:

3. Hey man, this is the NFL. You take what defenses give you. Some of the most successful plays in the league right now are slant patterns vs. man and posts vs. zone.

6. THIS is the one point that is 100% on the nose. As cliche as it sounds, you gotta start fast and dictate the pace of the game.  

PPl got hung up on my "4QTs of play" remark - maybe a better way to frame it is, the JETS ought to more frequently be the ones to impose their will to dictate the game. Doesn't mean we win every series.  Football games are chess matches, and currently we are too often backpedaling in reactive way to keep up. 

**Also Your first remark there would be (to me) more comfortable if there was this body of evidence of Zach doing anything but relying on those two reads. (I'm generalizing JIF, so cool your keyboard)...

he hasn't really demonstrated he can make over half the throws a good NFL QB has to make.  That's a thing. We can't just dismiss that concern.

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23 minutes ago, Paradis said:

That just sounds like a 1950s housewife response.  "Oh i just hope they have fun!"  

19 minutes ago, Paradis said:

So it's Lombardi time?

 

The bar has gotten so low here.  It's quite sad.  Demanding competent play after 12 years of suckage makes you "too negative" in these parts.  

"Just be happy they won a game!"  No, I will not.  We beat the Urban Meyer Jaguars last year with Zach throwing for 145 yards.  I was told to just be happy we won then, too.  We were "learning to win" and things were good.  How did that play out the rest of the season?

Now to be sure I've been positive about the overall direction of the franchise, as I think Joe Douglas has done a nice job (no one mentions that when they call people like me a troll though, lol), but asking for a divisional game where the Jets look competent for 30/60 minutes is not a bridge too far.

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17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The bar has gotten so low here.  It's quite sad.  Demanding competent play after 12 years of suckage makes you "too negative" in these parts.  

"Just be happy they won a game!"  No, I will not.  We beat the Urban Meyer Jaguars last year with Zach throwing for 145 yards.  I was told to just be happy we won then, too.  We were "learning to win" and things were good.  How did that play out the rest of the season?

Now to be sure I've been positive about the overall direction of the franchise, as I think Joe Douglas has done a nice job (no one mentions that when they call people like me a troll though, lol), but asking for a divisional game where the Jets look competent for 30/60 minutes is not a bridge too far.

Probably because you're not sincere and/or hedging your bets.  

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2 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

Probably because you're not sincere and/or hedging your bets.  

OK Mr PVO who was ready to give up on football at halftime on Sunday, lol.  If you haven't noticed, I've been consistent in my support of Joe Douglas because I do not think Woody Johnson can hire a higher caliber GM.  

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41 minutes ago, Paradis said:

That just sounds like a 1950s housewife response.  "Oh i just hope they have fun!"  

It's not too ambitious to want to see some of those things... (which is what i said, SOME)... if Zach can open up the playbook, we play with a lead, dictate the pace of the game (which would imply a "plan") then we inherently as a result don't rely on fluky 4th QT theatrics. 

You're wanting the same thing, showing up for a second week in row, not looking clueless.  We are brothers in this. 

Yeah, it’s not. It’s trying to be a little realistic about the situation at hand. The offensive line will either have another new configuration this week, or we’ll have a guard at LT again. I think the playbook was opened up some on Sunday, but if Zach and co. are gonna dominate for 60 minutes, they can’t be allowing pressure on 2/3’s of the pass attempts. 
 
Of course I want to see championship quality every week, but for now I just want to see some improvements and more consistency. I think this game is winnable, but I don’t think it’ll be easy. Like I said, I’ll take a win in this one any way they can get it. It’s been four years since they won a divisional game. Taking their first opportunity -by any means necessary- will be a statement. 

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16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

OK Mr PVO who was ready to give up on football at halftime on Sunday, lol.  If you haven't noticed, I've been consistent in my support of Joe Douglas because I do not think Woody Johnson can hire a higher caliber GM.  

My disdain and my hatred toward the NFL and sports in general makes me more emotional than I already am l but I was ready to give up on this regime because of Flacco.  I cooled down because of my fellow homies on the board brought me back down to my level headed realism but now that the prince that was promised is back, I'm kicking it ride or die with my PVO homies.  I only posted the "reset" button gif once in the game thread!

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55 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

"Just be happy they won a game!"  No, I will not.  We beat the Urban Meyer Jaguars last year with Zach throwing for 145 yards.  I was told to just be happy we won then, too.  We were "learning to win" and things were good.  How did that play out the rest of the season?]

I know this is suppoed to be some kind of zinger and I have never agreed much with the theory, but I think the level of play has been considerably better from that Jags game onward.  They have won six games under Saleh.  How many came after that Jags game?  The loss to Tampa was one of the better games they have played. 

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15 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

My disdain and my hatred toward the NFL and sports in general makes me more emotional than I already am l but I was ready to give up on this regime because of Flacco.  I cooled down because of my fellow homies on the board brought me back down to my level headed realism but now that the prince that was promised is back, I'm kicking it ride or die with my PVO homies.  I only posted the "reset" button gif once in the game thread!

Yeah but I seem to recall you were ready to give up midway through this past Sunday, even with Wilson under center lol.

Either way optimism makes sense but I don't see a problem with demanding more.  Just because we're starved for wins doesn't mean we should be cool with counting on borderline miracles to get the W's.  Beat the Phins or at least look good losing and that will be meaningful progress for the franchise.  

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know this is suppoed to be some kind of zinger and I have never agreed much with the theory, but I think the level of play has been considerably better from that Jags game onward.  They have won six games under Saleh.  How many came after that Jags game?  The loss to Tampa was one of the better games they have played. 

The Jacksonville win where Wilson threw for 102 yards was the 4th and final win of that season.  The Houston game where Wilson threw for 145 yards was the 3rd win of the season.

The Titans win and the Mike White Bengal game came earlier in the season.

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16 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I'll take 2 quarters of looking like a decent football team on Sunday.   Our 2 wins to date have come from, basically, 2.5 quarters of strong play.  Playing HALF of a "complete game" would be progress.

The Jets played a strong first half vs Pittsburgh - it was the last 2 minutes that were terrible and resulted in a 6 point swing.  The 3rd quarter and the first few minutes of the 4th quarter were bad. Then the last 10 minutes were tremendous.  So the Jets played about 2 1/2 quarters of good football vs Pittsburgh.  It wasn't all the last two drives.  They were up 10-3 and about to go up 13-3 before the 2 minute meltdown before the half.  

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Just now, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

The Jets played a strong first half vs Pittsburgh - it was the last 2 minutes that were terrible and resulted in a 6 point swing.  The 3rd quarter and the first few minutes of the 4th quarter were bad. Then the last 10 minutes were tremendous.  So the Jets played about 2 1/2 quarters of good football vs Pittsburgh.  It wasn't all the last two drives.  They were up 10-3 and about to go up 13-3 before the 2 minute meltdown before the half.  

OK, fair enough.  Then we've played about 3 strong quarters of football this season out of 16.  I didn't see too many Jets fans complimenting the play of the Jets during the Browns game while Jacoby Brissett was taking it to us, so its pretty revisionist to suggest that any of that was a good performance until the final 2 minutes.

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1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The bar has gotten so low here.  It's quite sad.  Demanding competent play after 12 years of suckage makes you "too negative" in these parts.  

"Just be happy they won a game!"  No, I will not.  We beat the Urban Meyer Jaguars last year with Zach throwing for 145 yards.  I was told to just be happy we won then, too.  We were "learning to win" and things were good.  How did that play out the rest of the season?

Now to be sure I've been positive about the overall direction of the franchise, as I think Joe Douglas has done a nice job (no one mentions that when they call people like me a troll though, lol), but asking for a divisional game where the Jets look competent for 30/60 minutes is not a bridge too far.

You were trolling in the game thread lol. 

The middle of the comeback- “these are garbage time stats”.  Grind that ax another day lol.

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2 hours ago, Bruce Harper said:

A win is a win.  I don't need to see six different things.  Please, let's not get greedy.

If they do not address some number of the six things, they may not win against materially better opponents than the down Steelers.

What harm is there in hoping for/rooting for/asking for improvement in unambiguous areas of deficiency?

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7 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

You were trolling in the game thread lol. 

The middle of the comeback- “these are garbage time stats”.  Grind that ax another day lol.

I was using the anti-Flacco argument as a joke, dude.  Thought that was clear.  Even said it before I made the joke if you care to look back.  When Flacco threw the 3rd TD of the day against Cleveland it was called "garbage time".  Until suddenly it wasn't.  

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2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I was using the anti-Flacco argument as a joke, dude.  Thought that was clear.  Even said it before I made the joke if you care to look back.  When Flacco threw the 3rd TD of the day against Cleveland it was called "garbage time".  Until suddenly it wasn't.  

That joke fell flatter than (insert name of flat chested famous celebrity girl here) boobs.

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36 minutes ago, slats said:

Yeah, it’s not. It’s trying to be a little realistic about the situation at hand. The offensive line will either have another new configuration this week, or we’ll have a guard at LT again. I think the playbook was opened up some on Sunday, but if Zach and co. are gonna dominate for 60 minutes, they can’t be allowing pressure on 2/3’s of the pass attempts. 
 
Of course I want to see championship quality every week, but for now I just want to see some improvements and more consistency. I think this game is winnable, but I don’t think it’ll be easy. Like I said, I’ll take a win in this one any way they can get it. It’s been four years since they won a divisional game. Taking their first opportunity -by any means necessary- will be a statement. 

You sound like Saleh, lol

Our wants are identical. Progress, consistency, managing expectations, etc.... I want to see an uptick in competence as well. Can't distill it any more for you than that, amigo. You know what i mean when i say that. 

 

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Just now, Paradis said:

You sound like Saleh, lol

Our wants are identical. Progress, consistency, managing expectations, etc.... I want to see an uptick in competence as well. Can't distill it any more for you than that, amigo. You know what i mean when i say that. 

 

^^^ Troll

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11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The Jets suck, and they should win this game. 

Lol, they’re underdogs for a reason. If they can snatch this one, it’ll be huge. By biggest concern is the letdown after the emotional win. That’s like the history of the franchise. But there’s no excuse not to be up for Miami. 

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2 minutes ago, slats said:

Lol, they’re underdogs for a reason. If they can snatch this one, it’ll be huge. By biggest concern is the letdown after the emotional win. That’s like the history of the franchise. But there’s no excuse not to be up for Miami. 

That's fair.

And make no mistake, this Miami team is no slouch. 

The loss of Tua and some other players help, and we're more talented than some think, but as you say "we are underdogs for a reason".

What will be crushing is if they come out flat and play like poop.  That just cannot happen.

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