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AVT and Duane


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1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

We should be okay at tackle and we will likely be drafting too far down to draft a LT. I think we are better off drafting a C and G - Brown/Fant at LT, AVT or Draft pick, Draft pick, AVT or Draft pick, Max/Fant. It was the middle that was more suspect today, need a real C and a LG.

Fant won't  be on the team after this season, Brown will be 38 next year. We need to draft them

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2 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

We should be okay at tackle and we will likely be drafting too far down to draft a LT. I think we are better off drafting a C and G - Brown/Fant at LT, AVT or Draft pick, Draft pick, AVT or Draft pick, Max/Fant. It was the middle that was more suspect today, need a real C and a LG.

Incidentally Haven’t seen anyone post the tankathon link here lately 

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2 hours ago, Adoni Beast said:
  • Need to keep AVT at RT forever and lock him up at a higher positional value with a massive deal that he’ll deserve. (I will speak this into existence)
  • Re-sign Duane Brown (if he holds up this year) or George Fant to a 1 year deal + draft LT high in the draft…or…

 

Brown is on a 2-yr deal, no?

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7 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

We should be okay at tackle and we will likely be drafting too far down to draft a LT. I think we are better off drafting a C and G - Brown/Fant at LT, AVT or Draft pick, Draft pick, AVT or Draft pick, Max/Fant. It was the middle that was more suspect today, need a real C and a LG.

I'd like to see them take a tackle, but no way is it a requirement that it's in round 1. Brown being under contract for next year - at non-backup money - provides that luxury, as does AVT's ability to slide over there, plus technically Becton is returning as well. That's the very purpose of having a pipeline, so a rookie doesn't need to start. Except if you draft a tackle in round 1 he is absolutely expected to start right away, so I guess we'd shove him at RT as a rookie and push Mitchell to the bench, and then ask the 1st rounder to flip sides in year 2 (or sooner, if Brown gets injured again). Meh.

Center is also hard to say. It sounds great on paper to have them draft a good starter, and we're all in favor of them doing so, but the reality is they don't have anyone under contract. They're just not going to head into the draft with a pure hole at C, hoping an instant starter falls to them without forcing the pick (i.e. maybe forcing that as the pick in round 1, or even trading up). I guess they could just re-sign Feeney and head into the draft that way, but then you have to face the very real possibility that he's the starter in '23, and he's awful. Not all rookie centers are plug & play good starters; far from it, as even ones drafted in round 1 can bust, and there aren't typically 2-3 insta-starting centers on demand in every draft class that'd prevent the team from needing to reach and/or trade up to fill such an extreme need.

McGovern hasn't gotten enough push in the ground game, though the revolving door at RG and crap play at LG doesn't help him look any better. Conversely he's not routinely gotten pushed back into Jets QBs' faces on passing downs (despite probably the most pass blocking snaps at center this year heading into this game). So yeah, while I don't know how much of a mad hurry to re-sign him, plenty starting centers are worse (including on contenders' teams). I don't think he'll get the same level contract he got from the Jets, but I've no idea what contract he'd command in March. It's not a very deep starting center group in FA; really it's him and Bozeman (who hasn't played yet this season). 

The other thing with veteran centers is they're not typically bank-breakers. This makes it more team-friendly to pay for a veteran center than a veteran at most (if not all) other positions, while altering draft priority for the higher-dollar position early. In theory, that is.

Anyway regarding McGovern, I think there's this perception among fans here that every team (or most teams) have far better at the position. I'm not sure that there are more than half a dozen excellent + reliable starting centers in the league right now, and most or half of those that qualify as such are older veterans (Kelce, Linsley, Ben Jones, etc.).

They'll see how it goes for the rest of this year (the lack of a McGovern extension says that's JD's plan anyway). The way things are looking, the starting OLman who most deserves to lose his job is Tomlinson, and you'd cut not demote him with a non-guaranteed $13MM salary coming up next year. So yea, see how the rest of the season plays out with him for better or for worse, but they might be better off re-signing McGovern so long as it isn't more than 1 year guaranteed for skill. Then they can find a new long-term center without forcing a pick in rounds 1 or 2. In theory I would've liked to see them take a future center this past April, seeing how McGovern was a FA after this season, but after these first 5 games it's hard to complain about the 2022 draft class.

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5 minutes ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Duane Brown gives us more in the running game than Fant. But can’t see him lasting through the season at 37 with a bum shoulder.

But all of a sudden, when Fant and Mitchel come back, we’ll become a pretty deep O-line. 

Is Fant coming back? I don't know how bad the knee is.

It'd be great to have him & Mitchell available again for the 2nd half of the season. At that point they're back to only missing Becton. 

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10 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Fant won't  be on the team after this season, Brown will be 38 next year. We need to draft them

Good luck with that. If things keep going the way they are going, we won't be drafting in the top 10. Franchise LTs are normally gone by then. Brown holds the fort until we can find his replacement. We also desperately need a new LB and C.

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'd like to see them take a tackle, but no way is it a requirement that it's in round 1. Brown being under contract for next year - at non-backup money - provides that luxury, as does AVT's ability to slide over there, plus technically Becton is returning as well. That's the very purpose of having a pipeline, so a rookie doesn't need to start. Except if you draft a tackle in round 1 he is absolutely expected to start right away, so I guess we'd shove him at RT as a rookie and push Mitchell to the bench, and then ask the 1st rounder to flip sides in year 2 (or sooner, if Brown gets injured again). Meh.

Center is also hard to say. It sounds great on paper to have them draft a good starter, and we're all in favor of them doing so, but the reality is they don't have anyone under contract. They're just not going to head into the draft with a pure hole at C, hoping an instant starter falls to them without forcing the pick (i.e. maybe forcing that as the pick in round 1, or even trading up). I guess they could just re-sign Feeney and head into the draft that way, but then you have to face the very real possibility that he's the starter in '23, and he's awful. Not all rookie centers are plug & play good starters; far from it, as even ones drafted in round 1 can bust, and there aren't typically 2-3 insta-starting centers on demand in every draft class that'd prevent the team from needing to reach and/or trade up to fill such an extreme need.

McGovern hasn't gotten enough push in the ground game, though the revolving door at RG and crap play at LG doesn't help him look any better. Conversely he's not routinely gotten pushed back into Jets QBs' faces on passing downs (despite probably the most pass blocking snaps at center this year heading into this game). So yeah, while I don't know how much of a mad hurry to re-sign him, plenty starting centers are worse (including on contenders' teams). I don't think he'll get the same level contract he got from the Jets, but I've no idea what contract he'd command in March. It's not a very deep starting center group in FA; really it's him and Bozeman (who hasn't played yet this season). 

The other thing with veteran centers is they're not typically bank-breakers. This makes it more team-friendly to pay for a veteran center than a veteran at most (if not all) other positions, while altering draft priority for the higher-dollar position early. In theory, that is.

Anyway regarding McGovern, I think there's this perception among fans here that every team (or most teams) have far better at the position. I'm not sure that there are more than half a dozen excellent + reliable starting centers in the league right now, and most or half of those that qualify as such are older veterans (Kelce, Linsley, Ben Jones, etc.).

They'll see how it goes for the rest of this year (the lack of a McGovern extension says that's JD's plan anyway). The way things are looking, the starting OLman who most deserves to lose his job is Tomlinson, and you'd cut not demote him with a non-guaranteed $13MM salary coming up next year. So yea, see how the rest of the season plays out with him for better or for worse, but they might be better off re-signing McGovern so long as it isn't more than 1 year guaranteed for skill. Then they can find a new long-term center without forcing a pick in rounds 1 or 2. In theory I would've liked to see them take a future center this past April, seeing how McGovern was a FA after this season, but after these first 5 games it's hard to complain about the 2022 draft class.

I have been taking about drafting a C since Mac was here. If you want a strong running game, you need a strong C. The C is the heart of the line and calls all of the protections. If the ZW is going to the next level, he is going to need the protection and a strong running game. Also, we need to start replacing the expensive and mediocre OL when we are ready to give ZW his next contract (here is hoping that we want to). We need a C, G, LBs, and a FS as well as LT. LTs normally go in the top 10, LBs normally go in the middle of the 1st, Cs at the middle to bottom of the 1st - where do you think we will be drafting? I am guessing middle of 1st - so I expect a LT is out. Just being pragmatic. We are likely going to have to draft a project for LT in day 2 and hope growth. If we draft a RG in day 2, we can move AVT back to LG if needed. IMO we can have a C and a G for what it will take to draft a starting LT. I would rather have a new middle of the line than to risk it all on an LT.

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10 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Brown is on a 2-yr deal, no?

ohhhh you are right. Smart move by JD. 

I think we have to draft LT in the first or 2nd next year, keep Duane Brown to start.

Keep developing (he's a monster) AVT at RT, have Mitchell back him up or even start at RG.

I guess let Fant walk.

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27 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

Good luck with that. If things keep going the way they are going, we won't be drafting in the top 10. Franchise LTs are normally gone by then. Brown holds the fort until we can find his replacement. We also desperately need a new LB and C.

You don't need Ogden at LT. All you need is a guy that can win more than 50% of the time. I'm also hoping that Mitchell becomes a starter in a year or 2 and we can keep drafting similar projects that show promise and support them but the T position  is in no way stable

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31 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

Good luck with that. If things keep going the way they are going, we won't be drafting in the top 10. Franchise LTs are normally gone by then. Brown holds the fort until we can find his replacement. We also desperately need a new LB and C.

We will not be picking in the top ten which happens to work out fine since our needs of center and off-ball LB are the positions you can find picking 15-50.

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4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'd like to see them take a tackle, but no way is it a requirement that it's in round 1. Brown being under contract for next year - at non-backup money - provides that luxury, as does AVT's ability to slide over there, plus technically Becton is returning as well. That's the very purpose of having a pipeline, so a rookie doesn't need to start. Except if you draft a tackle in round 1 he is absolutely expected to start right away, so I guess we'd shove him at RT as a rookie and push Mitchell to the bench, and then ask the 1st rounder to flip sides in year 2 (or sooner, if Brown gets injured again). Meh.

Center is also hard to say. It sounds great on paper to have them draft a good starter, and we're all in favor of them doing so, but the reality is they don't have anyone under contract. They're just not going to head into the draft with a pure hole at C, hoping an instant starter falls to them without forcing the pick (i.e. maybe forcing that as the pick in round 1, or even trading up). I guess they could just re-sign Feeney and head into the draft that way, but then you have to face the very real possibility that he's the starter in '23, and he's awful. Not all rookie centers are plug & play good starters; far from it, as even ones drafted in round 1 can bust, and there aren't typically 2-3 insta-starting centers on demand in every draft class that'd prevent the team from needing to reach and/or trade up to fill such an extreme need.

McGovern hasn't gotten enough push in the ground game, though the revolving door at RG and crap play at LG doesn't help him look any better. Conversely he's not routinely gotten pushed back into Jets QBs' faces on passing downs (despite probably the most pass blocking snaps at center this year heading into this game). So yeah, while I don't know how much of a mad hurry to re-sign him, plenty starting centers are worse (including on contenders' teams). I don't think he'll get the same level contract he got from the Jets, but I've no idea what contract he'd command in March. It's not a very deep starting center group in FA; really it's him and Bozeman (who hasn't played yet this season). 

The other thing with veteran centers is they're not typically bank-breakers. This makes it more team-friendly to pay for a veteran center than a veteran at most (if not all) other positions, while altering draft priority for the higher-dollar position early. In theory, that is.

Anyway regarding McGovern, I think there's this perception among fans here that every team (or most teams) have far better at the position. I'm not sure that there are more than half a dozen excellent + reliable starting centers in the league right now, and most or half of those that qualify as such are older veterans (Kelce, Linsley, Ben Jones, etc.).

They'll see how it goes for the rest of this year (the lack of a McGovern extension says that's JD's plan anyway). The way things are looking, the starting OLman who most deserves to lose his job is Tomlinson, and you'd cut not demote him with a non-guaranteed $13MM salary coming up next year. So yea, see how the rest of the season plays out with him for better or for worse, but they might be better off re-signing McGovern so long as it isn't more than 1 year guaranteed for skill. Then they can find a new long-term center without forcing a pick in rounds 1 or 2. In theory I would've liked to see them take a future center this past April, seeing how McGovern was a FA after this season, but after these first 5 games it's hard to complain about the 2022 draft class.

Great analysis.  For what it’s worth PFF has graded McGovern a top 10 center in 2 of the past 3 years.  He’s started slow in each of his Jets seasons but finished strong in both 2020 and 2021.

A lot of his issues have been around communication, something still at the forefront with new starters at guard.

Looking ahead, I’d be intrigued with a first rounder who can play both tackle and guard, starting at guard in 2023 and then LT in 2024 when Brown & Becton are gone.

The arrow is heading down quickly on Tomlinson and his inability to anchor is killing multiple plays and drives per game.  I do not expect him to turn this around on the opposite side of 30.  

The arrow is pointing up on Mitchell.  He is not the guy to sit in 2023.

I’d like to see:

LT Brown

LG 1st Rounder (sliding to LT in 2024)

C Free Agent (possibly McGovern but prefer a younger upgrade)

RG AVT

RT Mitchell

Swing Tackles:  Becton & 1st Rounder.  Fant leaves via free agency

Center/Guard Depth:  Feeney & a guy like Herbig (if he’d be willing to return)

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1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

I have been taking about drafting a C since Mac was here. If you want a strong running game, you need a strong C. The C is the heart of the line and calls all of the protections. If the ZW is going to the next level, he is going to need the protection and a strong running game. Also, we need to start replacing the expensive and mediocre OL when we are ready to give ZW his next contract (here is hoping that we want to). We need a C, G, LBs, and a FS as well as LT. LTs normally go in the top 10, LBs normally go in the middle of the 1st, Cs at the middle to bottom of the 1st - where do you think we will be drafting? I am guessing middle of 1st - so I expect a LT is out. Just being pragmatic. We are likely going to have to draft a project for LT in day 2 and hope growth. If we draft a RG in day 2, we can move AVT back to LG if needed. IMO we can have a C and a G for what it will take to draft a starting LT. I would rather have a new middle of the line than to risk it all on an LT.

Yeah I don’t agree with your premise that every team that can run the ball has some terrific run-blocking center. Unless this is where you want to sing the praises of John Feliciano, Ted Karras, Scott Quessenberry, and more.

The truth is most centers in the league suck, and most of those that are better run blockers are worse pass blockers that get the pocket collapsed, so all you’re getting is a trade-off.

Mind you, I’m behind drafting a center & moving on, but I’m nowhere near “anyone but McGovern” territory. Half the starting centers are worse. I stand by my premise that there aren’t 10 good run + pass blockers walking the earth. If we land one such center, yeah of course I’m in favor of it. 

Center is the least-important position on the OL and people routinely - and mistakenly - talk about it like it’s the most important. It’s no accident that there isn’t a GM in the league that would dare touch a center with a top 10 pick, but they’ll take any other OL position if it’s a good enough prospect; nor is it an accident it’s the lowest-paid position on the line and just about the lowest paid (starting) position in football.

Also don’t agree that any worthwhile LT or C or whatever must come from the top half of round 1. It’s just not the case. 

But am happy to agree to disagree & all that. 

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1 hour ago, OtherwiseHappyinLife said:

Great analysis.  For what it’s worth PFF has graded McGovern a top 10 center in 2 of the past 3 years.  He’s started slow in each of his Jets seasons but finished strong in both 2020 and 2021.

A lot of his issues have been around communication, something still at the forefront with new starters at guard.

Looking ahead, I’d be intrigued with a first rounder who can play both tackle and guard, starting at guard in 2023 and then LT in 2024 when Brown & Becton are gone.

The arrow is heading down quickly on Tomlinson and his inability to anchor is killing multiple plays and drives per game.  I do not expect him to turn this around on the opposite side of 30.  

The arrow is pointing up on Mitchell.  He is not the guy to sit in 2023.

I’d like to see:

LT Brown

LG 1st Rounder (sliding to LT in 2024)

C Free Agent (possibly McGovern but prefer a younger upgrade)

RG AVT

RT Mitchell

Swing Tackles:  Becton & 1st Rounder.  Fant leaves via free agency

Center/Guard Depth:  Feeney & a guy like Herbig (if he’d be willing to return)

Yeah I'd be ok with this from where we sit today, but by the end of the season it may not seem like a great plan.

Brown's shoulder may become more of a factor, this or that guy may start to look much better - or worse - than today. We also don't know our draft position & how badly we need to draft another position early. Say (yesterday notwithstanding) by Feb-Mar they're not interested in bringing back Lawson. Might that be because he gets injured again, his play gets invisible again, or just because JJII - if he's not already too badly hurt - returns to the field and shows off why he was previously a prospect people had pegged to go with a top 5-10 overall pick. 

Teams win super bowls without 1st round LTs, and certainly without 1st/2nd round centers. I think it's nostalgia over Brick/Mangold, but many fans have convinced themselves that a team has probowlers there or it has a hole that needs filling (and filling with 1st/2nd round picks at that). The whole purpose of a pipeline with an aging veteran, who can still play, is they can draft a guy a little later who can be brought along more slowly. 

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