Hmmmmm is Zach Wilson really better than Lawrence; some Jags fans now feel he is!

[TuscanyTile2]

I'd be much happier to read these comments after Zach has a down day.  That's when we'll know he's arrived.

[rbstern]

You get what...maybe a dozen rookie QBs making NFL rosters every year?  Some highly drafted.  Some signed as free agents.

For every Josh Allen or Patrick Mahommes, there are 10 guys who are up and down.  Some will be out of the league in a year or two.  Others will hang around and grow into solid NFL QBs (is Geno on that track?).  A small sample of games, either great or awful, doesn't define them.  Sometimes it's them.  Sometimes it's coaching.  Sometimes it's scheme.  Sometimes it's an opposing team's quality, or just their ability to exploit flaws.

If you want to say Darnold is a bust in his fifth season, I think that's a fair argument.  But to judge guys like Lawrence or Wilson, especially guys who came to bad teams as a rookie, after a dozen or even 20 games, is just not reasonable.

[Gastineau Lives]

1 hour ago, batman10023 said:

can you imagine if Zach had 7 turnovers in two games.  this place would be nuts.

 

Omg there would be flying orgasms left and right.

[bostonmajet]

Some interesting stuff - i have a couple of points as well:

1. most highly drafted QBs are drafted to really bad teams. These teams are often transitioning to a new GM or HC. The QB comes in and doesn't have quality players around him. Additionally, the CS often brings in a new scheme to the entire team is lost for a while; let's look at QBs that came in and played well - Maholmes landed in a very good team with a proven HC that was winning in spite of their QB. Not taking anything away from him, but it is fair to stay.

Mac Jone who clearly didn't have the same talent as other QBs landed on a team with a great Defense, strong OL and running game and a team running the same offense for 20 plus years. Mac Jones could lean on his teammates as they already knew the scheme. The next year, when the Pats lost their OC and they changed the scheme and all of a sudden he doesn't look so great.

2. One of the things they were saying about Trey is that he was the most NFL ready QB. He was 'generational' and the closest thing to a sure thing. For a guy who was supposed to be the most ready, he has not been playing that way. And when ZW who may have a better arm he was supposed to be the gun-slinger and less 'ready'. That is why I think it stings for them.

[Supersonic]

15 minutes ago, rbstern said:

You get what...maybe a dozen rookie QBs making NFL rosters every year?  Some highly drafted.  Some signed as free agents.

For every Josh Allen or Patrick Mahommes, there are 10 guys who are up and down.  Some will be out of the league in a year or two.  Others will hang around and grow into solid NFL QBs (is Geno on that track?).  A small sample of games, either great or awful, doesn't define them.  Sometimes it's them.  Sometimes it's coaching.  Sometimes it's scheme.  Sometimes it's an opposing team's quality, or just their ability to exploit flaws.

If you want to say Darnold is a bust in his fifth season, I think that's a fair argument.  But to judge guys like Lawrence or Wilson, especially guys who came to bad teams as a rookie, after a dozen or even 20 games, is just not reasonable.

Exactly.  Neither of these guys have scratched the surface in the NFL yet.  Ask this question again in a couple of years.  The only thing evident to me right now is Zach's desire to win.  The kid plays balls out.  If his head catches up with his skill and hunger, he'll be a superstar.

[Bungaman]

1 hour ago, extmenace said:

Lawrence will be fine. Just like much of the jet fan base, fans of other teams have unrealistic expectations of how quickly a franchise can turn around / how fast a qb learns the game. it’s funny how we don’t see anyone mentioning the “3 year” time frame anymore when it comes to the developing of QBs. The mahomes, Herbert’s and etc have made the majority of fan bases think that’s it’s normal to hit the ground running. It’s not. The qb position is very difficult to play, it takes time. Hurts and josh Allen are recent examples of qbs needing time. Zach is in the same boat. He’ll have his ups and downs but next year is the year where we get a glimpse of what we actually have. 

Those other QB's also landed on teams where the supporting cast (roster, coaching staff and GM) was way better than what Wilson or Lawrence arrived into. It still took time, but they developed quickly. Part of Trevor's problems is that he had maybe the worst coach in the NFL last year, and a pretty crappy roster around him again this year. Look at Mr. Gait up in NE. He's not mentioned in the same breath as Lawrence, but has had more success so far - because he got dropped into a fully developed NFL franchise. TL got dropped into NFL Hades.

Wilson should get to develop along with the youngins around him. If he unfortunately doesn't pan out (which I doubt, unless it's injuries or some other unforeseen circumstances, like a MILF OD,) the team will hopefully be set everywhere else to plop in another promising talent. This holds true for other positions: rookies will play up to their ceilings if they don't have to compensate for crappy play around them - they can just go out and do what they are supposed to.

[Bungaman]

3 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

Some interesting stuff - i have a couple of points as well:

1. most highly drafted QBs are drafted to really bad teams. These teams are often transitioning to a new GM or HC. The QB comes in and doesn't have quality players around him. Additionally, the CS often brings in a new scheme to the entire team is lost for a while; let's look at QBs that came in and played well - Maholmes landed in a very good team with a proven HC that was winning in spite of their QB. Not taking anything away from him, but it is fair to stay.

Mac Jone who clearly didn't have the same talent as other QBs landed on a team with a great Defense, strong OL and running game and a team running the same offense for 20 plus years. Mac Jones could lean on his teammates as they already knew the scheme. The next year, when the Pats lost their OC and they changed the scheme and all of a sudden he doesn't look so great.

2. One of the things they were saying about Trey is that he was the most NFL ready QB. He was 'generational' and the closest thing to a sure thing. For a guy who was supposed to be the most ready, he has not been playing that way. And when ZW who may have a better arm he was supposed to be the gun-slinger and less 'ready'. That is why I think it stings for them.

Ah - saw this after I got done typing - you said it first and well. 

[The Crusher]

2 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Is Zach Wilson really better than Trevor Lawrence????

Well, some Jaguars fans are beginning to state the developing obvious!

Did everyone see Lawrence's last-second attempt at a Hail Mary?????

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=37394&page=39

Take a look at a Jag fan's perspective:

rumpleteazer Wrote:  All you idiots cried and mocked Chris Simms when he said Zach Wilson was the best QB in the 2021 draft class and mocked me when I compared Lawrence to Sam Darnold last week.

You ? gullible fan base will really hate yourselves when you realize you literally traded away your best QB in team history (Menshew)

Zach Wilson is the best QB from the 2021 class and it’s karma imo for the clear tank Job the jags pulled to get Lawrence. Benching menshew and throwing those games after the Jets beat the browns and Rams has come back to bite this organization.

Remember all the laughing and mocking we all did at the expense of the NYJ? Well it seems like we saved the Jets from themselves by taking the worst QB from the 2021 draft class

I will never forget after the Jets tanked that game to the patriots on national TV in 2020, mike felger a popular Boston based radio host said these words that I will never forget:

“The Jets are tanking to get that Lawrence kid and the way they threw that game was disgusting but I’m telling you when teams do things like this in sports the kid will suck or get hurt, something will happen but he won’t be the player everyone thinks he will be, he’s going to suck watch “

After hearing this it always stuck to me and after the Jets won that game I was so ecstatic but when I see the jags benching the clearly better QB and literally throw the games away down the stretch I knew this wasn’t going to be a happy ending story.

Like Sam Darnold Lawrence will always have 1-3 flash plays a game that keep him around

_-----------------------------------------

Just wanted to post the horror that other fans feel!

And no we are NOT ALONE!!!!

Let's Go Jets!!  

Did not see that pass, anybody please?

[Charlie Brown]

2 hours ago, All Gas, No Gase said:

Wow! I just watched Trevor’s Hail Mary for the first time. Zach could have farted the ball that far. I thought Trevor is considered to have a cannon for a arm?

For those who didn't see it here is a link..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAwEkDf0sZE&t=327s

Sorry couldn't embed the video....  The video is WRONG but it does show the play!

 

[Charlie Brown]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Also, T.L. was never as good a prospect as he was made out to be.  Not even close. 

People really should stop using "generational" when it comes to the draft.

Some of us saw it back then.  

This was my subtle point about posting this thread at all....

Marino is/was Generational and Lawrence was/is NO DAN MARINO!!!

Let's Go Jets!

[hmhertz]

Trevor has a way better build and I think the potential for greatness is there.

 

The way better argument is bullsh*t.  Wilson out weighed Lawrence 214 to 213

at the Combine. I have studied tapes and pictures of him to determine how 

he is built. My conclusion is he has always had a musculature built.  Very early

in the off  season through changes in his diet and lifting he was up to 224.

He was called by the coach beefy. I emphasize 224 was early in camp I

wouldn't be surprised if he was in the 230s. At the TE camp pictures of 

him and Allen next to next were published with the caption Zach looks just as thick.

Conversely, I've seen commercials of the much taller Lawrence and he looked anorexic.

Comparing Zach to the slightly shorter Mahomes Zachary wins the body building

contest at his Combine the KC QB had a body fat measurement of 16 1/2% higher

than some lean linemen

[Charlie Brown]

2 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

We’ve seen it with our own qbs, at a certain point you either learn from your mistakes or you don’t.  Last week we were furious with that one pass wilson threw before the half that resulted in a 6 point swing.  Will Lawrence improve, maybe.  But no way he’s a generational talent, when you have 3 qbs from the 2020 class who most any team would take over him ( burrow, Herbert and hurts).  

It would be interesting to poll the 30 other gms and ask which qb they want, wilson or Lawrence, knowing all 30 probably would have picked Lawrence before that draft. 

This Lawrence Panther video agrees with you..

 

[The Crusher]

8 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

For those who didn't see it here is a link..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAwEkDf0sZE&t=327s

Sorry couldn't embed the video....  The video is WRONG but it does show the play!

 

Woah! Ugly. 

[Larz]

Ahhh the magical tank jinx. 
 

good times lol 

[Klecko73isGod]

Trevor Lawrence is the second coming of Matt Leinert, who was the second coming of Ken Dorsey.

They were all the same QB in college - guys who put up gaudy numbers while surrounded by overwhelming talent that would have won college games with a broomstick at QB.

He was never the guy people thought he was. He was a game manager surrounded by superior talent.

He doesn't have a great arm

He never showed an ability to elevate the talent around him.

He was never known as a student of the game.

He is an overly glamorized JAG. He is just a guy.

[The Crusher]

3 minutes ago, hmhertz said:

Trevor has a way better build and I think the potential for greatness is there.

 

The way better argument is bullsh*t.  Wilson out weighed Lawrence 214 to 213

at the Combine. I have studied tapes and pictures of him to determine how 

he is built. My conclusion is he has always had a musculature built.  Very early

in the off  season through changes in his diet and lifting he was up to 224.

He was called by the coach beefy. I emphasize 224 was early in camp I

wouldn't be surprised if he was in the 230s. At the TE camp pictures of 

him and Allen next to next were published with the caption Zach looks just as thick.

Conversely, I've seen commercials of the much taller Lawrence and he looked anorexic.

Comparing Zach to the slightly shorter Mahomes Zachary wins the body building

contest at his Combine the KC QB had a body fat measurement of 16 1/2% higher

than some lean linemen

Yeah hey showed up this year with no need to ask if he had leg day. Beefy! 

[nycdan]

10 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

For those who didn't see it here is a link..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAwEkDf0sZE&t=327s

Sorry couldn't embed the video....  The video is WRONG but it does show the play!

 

OMG that was horrible.  The entire pack of receivers and DBs had to come back 10 yards on that duck.

He was better his freshman year at Clemson.  What happened to him?

[The Crusher]

3 minutes ago, Klecko73isGod said:

Trevor Lawrence is the second coming of Matt Leinert, who was the second coming of Ken Dorsey.

They were all the same QB in college - guys who put up gaudy numbers while surrounded by overwhelming talent that would have won college games with a broomstick at QB.

He was never the guy people thought he was. He was a game manager surrounded by superior talent.

He doesn't have a great arm

He never showed an ability to elevate the talent around him.

He was never known as a student of the game.

He is an overly glamorized JAG. He is just a guy.

Plus it’s been mentioned he doesn’t really need football. By his Dad I think. Zach is a space monkey, dude will do whatever it takes to win, and get the next Milfs digits, 

[The Crusher]

Just now, nycdan said:

OMG that was horrible.  The entire pack of receivers and DBs had to come back 10 yards on that duck.

He was better his freshman year at Clemson.  What happened to him?

He had to run around a bit but he set his feet and that looked like one of those weird first pitch videos, 

[BornJetsFan1983]

3 hours ago, Charlie Brown said:

Is Zach Wilson really better than Trevor Lawrence????

Well, some Jaguars fans are beginning to state the developing obvious!

Did everyone see Lawrence's last-second attempt at a Hail Mary?????

https://www.duvalpride.com/showthread.php?tid=37394&page=39

Take a look at a Jag fan's perspective:

rumpleteazer Wrote:  All you idiots cried and mocked Chris Simms when he said Zach Wilson was the best QB in the 2021 draft class and mocked me when I compared Lawrence to Sam Darnold last week.

You ? gullible fan base will really hate yourselves when you realize you literally traded away your best QB in team history (Menshew)

Zach Wilson is the best QB from the 2021 class and it’s karma imo for the clear tank Job the jags pulled to get Lawrence. Benching menshew and throwing those games after the Jets beat the browns and Rams has come back to bite this organization.

Remember all the laughing and mocking we all did at the expense of the NYJ? Well it seems like we saved the Jets from themselves by taking the worst QB from the 2021 draft class

I will never forget after the Jets tanked that game to the patriots on national TV in 2020, mike felger a popular Boston based radio host said these words that I will never forget:

“The Jets are tanking to get that Lawrence kid and the way they threw that game was disgusting but I’m telling you when teams do things like this in sports the kid will suck or get hurt, something will happen but he won’t be the player everyone thinks he will be, he’s going to suck watch “

After hearing this it always stuck to me and after the Jets won that game I was so ecstatic but when I see the jags benching the clearly better QB and literally throw the games away down the stretch I knew this wasn’t going to be a happy ending story.

Like Sam Darnold Lawrence will always have 1-3 flash plays a game that keep him around

_-----------------------------------------

Just wanted to post the horror that other fans feel!

And no we are NOT ALONE!!!!

Let's Go Jets!!  

lawrence looks a whole let better with good coach and talent around him. I havent watch much of him to be honest but I think he and zach are both likely to turn into decent or better. I look at geno and see what actually sitting and learning can do for someone. The way it used to be, im not convinced that is the only way to make a player good at Qb but it sure can work. Zach's road is tough but think the kid has it. 

[Jimmy 2 Times]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

This Lawrence Panther video agrees with you..

 

WTF?

Everyone has a talk show now.  lol 

[TuscanyTile2]

2 hours ago, batman10023 said:

can you imagine if Zach had 7 turnovers in two games.  this place would be nuts.

1 hour ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Omg there would be flying orgasms left and right.

It would be the happiest the forum has been in years.

[nycdan]

Just now, The Crusher said:

He had to run around a bit but he set his feet and that looked like one of those weird first pitch videos, 

Yep and he looked like Bambi running around back there.  

Dude...how long is this bet debt going to last.  It's freaking me out.

[Charlie Brown]

37 minutes ago, Klecko73isGod said:

Trevor Lawrence is the second coming of Matt Leinert, who was the second coming of Ken Dorsey.

They were all the same QB in college - guys who put up gaudy numbers while surrounded by overwhelming talent that would have won college games with a broomstick at QB.

He was never the guy people thought he was. He was a game manager surrounded by superior talent.

He doesn't have a great arm

He never showed an ability to elevate the talent around him.

He was never known as a student of the game.

He is an overly glamorized JAG. He is just a guy.

The Truth is several videos, some of which I posted here agree with you!

And why some speculate why HC Doug Pederson is not running the ball, so that he can really see what he has in Lawrence!

Simple....No HC wants a situation where a QB with a name, that he didn't pick gets you fired! 

[Charlie Brown]

39 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

He had to run around a bit but he set his feet and that looked like one of those weird first pitch videos, 

Yo Dude that Joe Namath Avatar is FREAKING ME OUT!!!   

[Charlie Brown]

Just saw people don't have to look...

 

[rex-n-effect]

If Wilson turns out to be a franchise QB and Lawrence is a dud, we have to thank Gase for two of the most important acquisitions in franchise history.

[Klecko73isGod]

2 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

If Wilson turns out to be a franchise QB and Lawrence is a dud, we have to thank Gase for two of the most important acquisitions in franchise history.

I literally just came in this thread to say this.

 

Great minds.

[The Crusher]

23 minutes ago, Charlie Brown said:

Yo Dude that Joe Namath Avatar is FREAKING ME OUT!!!   

Haha, a bet is  a bet. Sorry. 

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

That throw looked like it came from Jennifer Lawrence.

_{All right.  I didn't actually see it.  I just wanted to say that.}

I did see it

Your description was apt

It was pretty bad

 

[Charlie Brown]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I did see it

Your description was apt

It was pretty bad

 

Indeed, I have never ever seen a Pro QB throw a Hail Mary that poorly before, EVER!

It must have happened but I can't recall it!   

[slimjasi]

Just now, Charlie Brown said:

Indeed, I have never ever seen a Pro QB throw a Hail Mary that poorly before, EVER!

It must have happened but I can't recall it!   

Two words:

Chad Pennington 

Check out his Hail Mary at the end of the Oakland game in 02 (regular season game not playoff loss)

[peekskill68]

3 hours ago, nycdan said:

Yeah, we all hate him.  But go back and look at some of his throws to Moss.  He could chuck it.

I dunno.  To me chucking it 50+ yards on a go route is easier than throwing a 35 yd frozen rope on a deep out...

[Hal N of Provo]

4 hours ago, All Gas, No Gase said:

Too early to tell. I’m leaning toward Zach though. Trevor had one really good game, then followed it up with 7 turnovers in two games. I don’t even want to imagine JN if Zach did that in year two. 

If Zach continues to play well on the next two road games, then I’m jumping aboard the Zach hype train.

[TuscanyTile2]