The Debbie Downer Train of doubt and excuses

[DoubleDown]

I agree the negativity especially toward Zach is completely over the top.

If someone predicted that after Zach's return the Jets would go 3-0 with Zach leading two TD drives in a comeback 4th quarter victory, then having zero turnovers in the next two games, every single person on this board would have happily signed up for that.

Do people not remember how hopeless things were looking just a month ago?

Baby steps.  So many of the Jets key contributors are first and second year players.  They are learning how to win.  The best teams in the league win the ugly games.  It's just a fact of life in the NFL.  This is a team that for two weeks in a row has started to impose its will in the 4th quarter and run away with games.  This is a good thing!

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, LSJF said:

Yes he’s doing fine, establishing the run game is somehow a detriment to a quarterback? When he throws the ball away after being chased out of pocket, that’s an incomplete, I’ll take that over a interception… Have you forgotten the game against the Steelers, when he was coming up big in the fourth quarter, not sure what you expect from him… Is it 300 yards or failure? Is he Josh Allen right now? No..Was Josh Allen Josh Allen in his second year… I think he’s got “it”… I did not feel that way about the last hundred quarterbacks we had… I love having a power running game by the way, we eat the clock, wear down to the defenses… The passes will come, or else the wide receivers will freak… By the way he threw an nice bomb to Cory Davis…

How does Zach establish the run game? I know he played well up until the Green Bay game but he wasn't  fine in that game. Holding the ball as long as he was is not doing fine. I was screaming at my TV for him to throw multiple times. Rolling out into your own blocker is not fine. Throwing behind a reciever is not fine. He had a bad game. I know it happens to the best QBs but all things considered, this is up and down, not fine. 

[BroadwayRay]

15 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Hi, I’m a Zach Wilson hater. Yes I am enjoying the win because wins have been few and far between for my entire 34 years of existence.

But you are confusing things a little bit. no one here is hoping that he is a bust. No one. Some of us just have a feeling that he will. A game in which we win but he throws for 110 yards isn’t going to stop the criticisms.

There are definitely things that should concern everyone. His completion percentage needs to be better. He needs to learn to put some touch on certain passes. No need to throw lasers to a rb 5 yards away. His ball placement can be better at times as well.

Yes I’d say he has improved in some areas from last year. He’s definitely cutting down the turnovers and I love the way he moves around in the pocket. He has a rocket for an arm and no doubt he has flashed his potential. But they are just flashes. He needs to be more consistent and do it for a complete game.  Im still waiting for a 300 yard performance or a game with 3 tds.

Right now it looks like we have a good team with a below average qb. Kind of like the Sanchez days. Trust me I would love to be proven wrong. I hope he can become a franchise qb. But from what I’ve seen so far I’m just not sure that he is.

Nothing you said is incorrect, although I don't get why it all translates into you being a "Wilson hater." The rest of the season will be telling when it comes to Zach Wilson. All the pieces are in place for him to flourish. If he doesn't get any better between now and the end of the season they should move on from him. It's impossible to predict, though. He's roughly at the place where Josh Allen was at the start of his second season. In Allen's case, he went from being a game manager at the start of the season to a genuine force by the end of the season. Wilson has to follow that same type of track. 

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, DoubleDown said:

This is a team that for two weeks in a row has started to impose its will in the 4th quarter and run away with games.  This is a good thing!

I would say three weeks in a row.

4th quarter was ALL Jets against Pittsburg.

[TommyT]

Not a bad argument, but with each game this team is beginning to look like a top 10 team and it feels amazing.

[TheClashFan]

I do think there are some who want Zach to fail.  Just follow the game thread each week and you'll see every mistake (big or small) that he makes brought up by some, over and over.  Now, a few may be just having fun/joking, but not all are just having a laugh.  And that's no problem...just have some fun back.

And hey, the Debbie Downers might be right about Zach...I have no idea but I'm rooting for the guy b/c this offense looks like it could be special.

 

 

 

[bitonti]

41 minutes ago, TommyT said:

Not a bad argument, but with each game this team is beginning to look like a top 10 team and it feels amazing.

the "debbie downers" are the way we are because this type of hope is only gonna get you hurt 

sooner or later someone's going to stack the box and make the Jets pass to keep pace

you can't go into the locker room scoring 3 points in the first half and assume it's always going to work out 

 

[ZachEY]

16 hours ago, T0mShane said:

You people complain about the haters then spend all day and night starting threads and tagging posts to get the haters to respond to you. Just admit that you want and need the haters to do the dirty work of processing your Jets-related anxieties for you. Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be protected by men who aren’t afraid to be downvoted. Who’s gonna do it? You? You weep for Zach Wilson and you curse PFF. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know; that dragging Wilson, while tragic, probably helps us win a Super Bowl. And the existence of the haters, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at tailgates, you want us on that wall. You need us on that wall. We use words like “completion percentage,” “DVOA,” “yards per attempt.” We use these words as the backbone of a life explaining why Sanchez and Pennington and Darnold were mirages. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very realism I provide. I would rather you just said “thank you” and went back to sipping on your IPA. Otherwise, I suggest you open a tab on Pro-Football-Reference and stand a post. Otherwise, I don’t give a damn how many threads you people post complaining about “Debbie Downer.” 

Is this from Jaws too?

[FidelioJet]

4 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

Rogers isn't  Rogers anymore. 

He was the MVP last year and won 13 games.

 

[ZachEY]

18 minutes ago, bitonti said:

sooner or later someone's going to stack the box and make the Jets pass to keep pace

you can't go into the locker room scoring 3 points in the first half and assume it's always going to work out 

But it's totally unreasonable to remain concerned that the former #2 overall pick in his second season would be tied for 29th in DYAR and 28th in DVOA if there wasn't a 90-pass minimum to qualify for the list.

[LSJF]

2 hours ago, More Cowbell said:

How does Zach establish the run game? I know he played well up until the Green Bay game but he wasn't  fine in that game. Holding the ball as long as he was is not doing fine. I was screaming at my TV for him to throw multiple times. Rolling out into your own blocker is not fine. Throwing behind a reciever is not fine. He had a bad game. I know it happens to the best QBs but all things considered, this is up and down, not fine. 

The Jets establishing themselves as a smash-mouth run team first is not bad...Watch Denver gear up for the run, and then Jets will be passing more...I didn't say he was all-pro last game...i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because i see clutch passes during these games, incompletes coming after scrambles...interceptions less and less ... i don't know, do you really think he sucks or that he's not Josh Allen yet after 16 games played

[FidelioJet]

33 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the "debbie downers" are the way we are because this type of hope is only gonna get you hurt 

sooner or later someone's going to stack the box and make the Jets pass to keep pace

you can't go into the locker room scoring 3 points in the first half and assume it's always going to work out 

 

Three things:

1. The Jet did what they needed to do to win the game.  Saleh talked about how he felt the Jets would be able to control the game late due to their stamina and that GB had the London trip.  Keep the game close and take over in the 4th.  Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what happened.
   
   I suspect had the Jets gone down 10 - the offense would have played it differently, but they led or tied the entire game - so no reason to push anything.
2. Do you really think you're the only person to think well "hey, if we stack the box the Jets can't win" You figured out the key to stopping the Jets, but no one else has tried it?
   
   This wasn't the only game Zach Wilson played, there were two others - one of which he carried the team in the 4th, another he made key drives to win the game...and this one, with uniquer circumstances - like every NFL game
3. So I think we all agree, you can't win EVERY game by only scoring 3 points in the first half, but lucky for the Jets with Wilson - this was the only game in which that happened.

This is the problem I'm having - people are making it out like this week was the Zach's only performance, when in fact it was his third.  All three different situations, all three wins and in all three Zach played a different role in finding ways to win.

The kid defiantly still has a lot of growing to do - he surely needs to get better, he DEFINITELY needs to find a way to get off to better starts...

But he's also come a long way, carried the team on his back for a victory in Pittsburg and made multiple big time plays in Miami.  Yes, this week he looked very shaky early - but he settled in and made some key plays to open up the running game to take control.

I just don't know why that's so hard for so many accept.

[Lith]

Can someone please clarify for me if I am or am not a hater. 

I love this team -- I have totally bought in and actually posted about the possibility of playoffs this season.  I am thrilled that the team is 4-2.  I am thirlled that the team has won 3 straight.  I just have not bought into Zach as a long term franchise QB yet.  I am not calling him a bust either. I don't know what he is yet.  He has made some plays.  Was great the way he put the team on his back and led them to victory in Pittsburgh.  He was an effective game manager against Miami.  He struggled through much of the Packer game before making a couple of plays late as we pulled away.  

There has been some good and some bad.  I still want to see him play well on a more consistent basis over the last 11 games than he has in the last three weeks.  I do not see many haters on this board.  Seems like most everyone is very happy with the progress the team has made.  Some of us just want to see more to be convinced that WIlson is the guy.  If that makes me a hater, so be it.

[Jetsfan80]

18 hours ago, Bowles Movement said:

Sanchez likely would have beat Pittsburgh if the Jets D could have gotten a stop when it mattered.   And they lost to Denver because of multiple second half turn overs.

Im not saying that he was great but he didnt lose either AFC championship game.

The Sanchez-led offense scored negative 7 points in a half.  You can't win playoff games like that.  Period.

Sanchez is the # 1 reason neither of the '09 or 2010 teams won a championship yet he's treated by about 30 % of the fanbase like he was the best Jets QB since Namath.

F**k Sanchez.

[GangGreen Machine]

“Green Bay was 15-0 in their last 15 home games. We won and beat last years MVP, but Zach Wilson and Elijah Moore didn’t get to shine because we were ahead by too many points.” 

 

[raffyD]

1 hour ago, ZachEY said:

Is this from Jaws too?

A few good men

[Bowles Movement]

10 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

The Sanchez-led offense scored negative 7 points in a half.  You can't win playoff games like that.  Period.

Sanchez is the # 1 reason neither of the '09 or 2010 teams won a championship yet he's treated by about 30 % of the fanbase like he was the best Jets QB since Namath.

F**k Sanchez.

As always you are entitled to your own opinion but it doesnt line up with the facts.

Sanchez wasnt great in the regular season but elevated his play in the playoffs which is why they got to 2 AFC Championship games back to back as a wild card.

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Bowles Movement said:

As always you are entitled to your own opinion but it doesnt line up with the facts.

Sanchez wasnt great in the regular season but elevated his play in the playoffs which is why they got to 2 AFC Championship games back to back as a wild card.

 

And yet he still cost us that 2010 AFC Title game all the same.  

He also very nearly cost the 2009 team from making the playoffs in the first place.

Those '09-'10 rosters were a ferrari and Mark Sanchez was a 14 year old kid driving it.  A couple nice playoff games where he was asked to complete about 20 throws does little to change the narrative there.

[Jet Nut]

20 hours ago, Hex said:

Yeah the Jets are winning, but Zach sucks. 110 yards is never enough to win games.

110 yards is never enough to win games.

Yet apparently 110 was enough to blow out Aaron Rodgers and a desperate Packer team in Lambeau.  

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

Three things:

1. The Jet did what they needed to do to win the game.  Saleh talked about how he felt the Jets would be able to control the game late due to their stamina and that GB had the London trip.  Keep the game close and take over in the 4th.  Which, by the way, is EXACTLY what happened.
   
   I suspect had the Jets gone down 10 - the offense would have played it differently, but they led or tied the entire game - so no reason to push anything.
2. Do you really think you're the only person to think well "hey, if we stack the box the Jets can't win" You figured out the key to stopping the Jets, but no one else has tried it?
   
   This wasn't the only game Zach Wilson played, there were two others - one of which he carried the team in the 4th, another he made key drives to win the game...and this one, with uniquer circumstances - like every NFL game
3. So I think we all agree, you can't win EVERY game by only scoring 3 points in the first half, but lucky for the Jets with Wilson - this was the only game in which that happened.

This is the problem I'm having - people are making it out like this week was the Zach's only performance, when in fact it was his third.  All three different situations, all three wins and in all three Zach played a different role in finding ways to win.

The kid defiantly still has a lot of growing to do - he surely needs to get better, he DEFINITELY needs to find a way to get off to better starts...

But he's also come a long way, carried the team on his back for a victory in Pittsburg and made multiple big time plays in Miami.  Yes, this week he looked very shaky early - but he settled in and made some key plays to open up the running game to take control.

I just don't know why that's so hard for so many accept.

Packers defensive strength was against the pass and their weakness was against the run.  Couldn’t have affected the game plan?  I’m guessing it did, right into a dominant win  
No clue where all these stack the box and force ZW to pass = a loss comes from.

[FidelioJet]

47 minutes ago, Lith said:

Can someone please clarify for me if I am or am not a hater. 

I love this team -- I have totally bought in and actually posted about the possibility of playoffs this season.  I am thrilled that the team is 4-2.  I am thirlled that the team has won 3 straight.  I just have not bought into Zach as a long term franchise QB yet.  I am not calling him a bust either. I don't know what he is yet.  He has made some plays.  Was great the way he put the team on his back and led them to victory in Pittsburgh.  He was an effective game manager against Miami.  He struggled through much of the Packer game before making a couple of plays late as we pulled away.  

There has been some good and some bad.  I still want to see him play well on a more consistent basis over the last 11 games than he has in the last three weeks.  I do not see many haters on this board.  Seems like most everyone is very happy with the progress the team has made.  Some of us just want to see more to be convinced that WIlson is the guy.  If that makes me a hater, so be it.

This is incredibly fair.  I can't imagine anyone would have any issues with a post or position like this..

But as for the bolded, there is more than handful of toxic posters attacking Zach Wilson and acting like the first half of the GB game was all he's done all year.

[jgb]

? 

[Bowles Movement]

19 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

And yet he still cost us that 2010 AFC Title game all the same.  

He also very nearly cost the 2009 team from making the playoffs in the first place.

Those '09-'10 rosters were a ferrari and Mark Sanchez was a 14 year old kid driving it.  A couple nice playoff games where he was asked to complete about 20 throws does little to change the narrative there.

Dude I just showed you the stats.  You dont beat 2 teams to get to the AFC championship game as a wild card 2 years in a row with bad QB play.   The Defense was instrumental in losing both AFC championship games.   Could Sanchez have done more, sure. But he wasnt thereason we lost.   Ignore the data and spin it anyway you want.   I dont care.

[HighPitch]

4 hours ago, slats said:

What’s also funny is that you seem to be taking it more personally than the people  

Yes exactly. 

That's the read I get as well.

Its almost like warfish just wants to debate. When the jets stink, there are so many question marks and the debates are plentiful.

 

Now that the jets are winning and doing well, there is far far far less to argue over and therefore no debating. 

He is the self proclaimed "master debater" so I guess he is not getting his fill. But he does have a lovely blue eye and good taste in music so thats nice

[T0mShane]

42 minutes ago, Lith said:

Can someone please clarify for me if I am or am not a hater. 

I love this team -- I have totally bought in and actually posted about the possibility of playoffs this season.  I am thrilled that the team is 4-2.  I am thirlled that the team has won 3 straight.  I just have not bought into Zach as a long term franchise QB yet.  I am not calling him a bust either. I don't know what he is yet.  He has made some plays.  Was great the way he put the team on his back and led them to victory in Pittsburgh.  He was an effective game manager against Miami.  He struggled through much of the Packer game before making a couple of plays late as we pulled away.  

There has been some good and some bad.  I still want to see him play well on a more consistent basis over the last 11 games than he has in the last three weeks.  I do not see many haters on this board.  Seems like most everyone is very happy with the progress the team has made.  Some of us just want to see more to be convinced that WIlson is the guy.  If that makes me a hater, so be it.

If you’re so inclined, the last ~15 minutes of this podcast has some Jets-related content that’ll make you feel a little better about the Jets generally and Zach Wilson specifically. It’s Ben Solak and Sheil Kapadia exchanging takes (fwiw), and they hit on a few things of interest:

1. On Zach specifically, Kapadia tries making the point that the Jets have a lot of good forward momentum, not only from a talent standpoint, but also from the position of having a viable offensive scheme, but the one thing holding them back is Zach Wilson. Solak—who has been no fan of Wilson—counters by saying that they drafted Wilson based on his “highs,” and not necessarily his down-to-down mastery of the QB position, and if they ever hope to get any type of return on Zach, the only thing they can do is give him as much time as possible to play football and try to get better, which is a reasonable take. Solak wrote an article last year excoriating Wilson, but has since said that he’s started to see some things that should be encouraging.

2. Solak’s more important (and interesting) point came when he was discussing the parity in the league, and how that’s been generated by teams finding ways to raise the floor for mediocre QBs—he points to the Giants with Daniel Jones, the Jets with Zach, the Falcons with Mariota, Seattle with Geno, etc. Speaks to the point that maybe it’s ok if Zach never becomes Josh Allen because the league might be moving away from the legacy QB to a more college-style philosophy where your Shanahan-style system wins for you and it’s not just some unicorn-type QB that maybe four teams have at any one point in time.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ringer-nfl-show/id1109282822?i=1000583018055

[ZachEY]

50 minutes ago, raffyD said:

A few good men

it was a joke

[DoubleDown]

2 hours ago, bitonti said:

sooner or later someone's going to stack the box and make the Jets pass to keep pace

It's going to happen, and soon.  We'll see if Zach can step up to the occasion.

My guess is yes.  For the first time in a long time, the Jets have legitimate weapons to attack defenses in multiple ways.  Two RB set, two TE set, 3 and 4 WR sets.  No problem, pick your poison.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

He was the MVP last year and won 13 games.

Last year isn't this year.

For Rodgers.  And Wilson.

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

He was the MVP last year and won 13 games.

 

That was last year. Rogers was himself then. It happens to all the greats. Look at Manning his last season on Denver. He was strictly a game manager. 

[FidelioJet]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Last year isn't this year.

For Rodgers.  And Wilson.

I get it, but I don't know if you can say Rodgers isn't Rodgers anymore - 6 games after winning an MVP and 13 games. in the season.

Wilson's been on the decline for some time now.

[FidelioJet]

Just now, More Cowbell said:

That was last year. Rogers was himself then. It happens to all the greats. Look at Manning his last season on Denver. He was strictly a game manager. 

Manning broke is neck for crying out loud.  

[TuscanyTile2]

20 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

We’re all going to die and none of this matters.

This

[Warfish]

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I get it, but I don't know if you can say Rodgers isn't Rodgers anymore - 6 games after winning an MVP and 13 games. in the season.

Take away a HOF-level WR talent, and leave Rodgers with few weapons and a busted thumb.

He's not the player he was last year, and that isn't the offense it was last year.  That's obvious IMO.

Doesn't make the win any less sweet.

3 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Wilson's been on the decline for some time now.

I meant our Wilson. 

Given the improvement you and others believe you've seen in him since last year.

[Hex]

58 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

110 yards is never enough to win games.

Yet apparently 110 was enough to blow out Aaron Rodgers and a desperate Packer team in Lambeau.  

I was being sarcastic, silly

look at the 'yeah but' connection to OP

[More Cowbell]

1 hour ago, LSJF said:

The Jets establishing themselves as a smash-mouth run team first is not bad...Watch Denver gear up for the run, and then Jets will be passing more...I didn't say he was all-pro last game...i guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because i see clutch passes during these games, incompletes coming after scrambles...interceptions less and less ... i don't know, do you really think he sucks or that he's not Josh Allen yet after 16 games played

This whole post is kind of redic. In your first post you typed "Yes he’s doing fine, establishing the run game is somehow a detriment to a quarterback?"  As if Zach was doing something to establish the run. If anything, running out of bounds on the wildcat and not throwing a block cost us a rushing TD. I'm not saying it was wrong for him to do that, it was smart to protect himself  but you now seem to want it both ways. 

As far as the rest of the post,  I want to see Breece jam the ball down Denvers throat  and Zach to just pass on 2nd and long and 3rd and long. Ekeler was doing pretty well against Denvers D and I think Breece is better so no, I don't  want to see a pass happy game plan.  The Jets have a run first identify.  We need to stick with that. 

All I am saying is saying Zach is fine means you are ok with his up and down play to date. I don't  agree. He needs to be more consistent.  He doesn't  have to be great, he just has to stop playing stupid.