Zach Wilson Thru the Denver Game (YtY Change in Passing Production Rankings)

[football guy]

10 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

Honestly didn't see much vertical against Miami either  Seems like it's a tendency now which makes game planning against Lafleur easier. 

The Shanahan WCO is predominantly a horizontal passing attack. Its not to say that they won't attack downfield, but most of the deep shots come off of play-action

[football guy]

44 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

"night and day better"

 

Go sit with any independent QB coach and ask what they think play-to-play. I'll wait 

[SuicidalSince98]

Just now, football guy said:

The Shanahan WCO is predominantly a horizontal passing attack. Its not to say that they won't attack downfield, but most of the deep shots come off of play-action

So it’s a horrible fit for Wilson, got it 

[Smashmouth]

24 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I don't think we were ever beating the Bills regardless, but he needs to be good enough to beat NE

what does Belichick do to young QB's regularly ? Zach still plays like a bad Rookie and Belichick will exploit the hell out of him. Thats a game we have to once again be bailed out by a superior defense cause Zach will be lucky to throw for 150 yards 

[Jet9]

So... we're losing to the Steelers in the AFC Championship game again?

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

what does Belichick do to young QB's regularly ? Zach still plays like a bad Rookie and Belichick will exploit the hell out of him. Thats a game we have to once again be bailed out by a superior defense cause Zach will be lucky to throw for 150 yards 

I don't disagree. 

He has to get better in a hurry

[RedBeardedSavage]

Zach can't hide behind Breece anymore.

The rest of the season will tell us exactly what we have.

[football guy]

Just now, SuicidalSince98 said:

So it’s a horrible fit for Wilson, got it 

Not at all. The main reason why he is here is because of his ability to throw downfield on the run and for his playmaking ability outside of structure. But as I've said no less than 100 times now, game plan, game script, and opponent will dictate how aggressive the team is with him in the short-term. If all goes according to plan, he'll be used the way LaFleur uses Rodgers long-term

[Reasonable Jets Fan]

1 minute ago, football guy said:

Not at all. The main reason why he is here is because of his ability to throw downfield on the run and for his playmaking ability outside of structure. But as I've said no less than 100 times now, game plan, game script, and opponent will dictate how aggressive the team is with him in the short-term. If all goes according to plan, he'll be used the way LaFleur uses Rodgers long-term

But why has lafluer eliminated slants the last two games.... Easy passes quick 3 step drops and the wr in front of his face

[CSNY]

7 minutes ago, football guy said:

The Shanahan WCO is predominantly a horizontal passing attack. Its not to say that they won't attack downfield, but most of the deep shots come off of play-action

But that’s the problem. The WCO is predominantly geared to YAC but you need a accurate passer to hit receivers in stride and not have to turn around and catch a ball that’s behind him and Zach has failed to do it 

[GreenFish]

Not looking good. I expected him to be more efficient. He’s falling short every where. He’s been matched against top defenses and isn’t losing games. That’s the best thing we can say.

[batman10023]

1 hour ago, football guy said:

No doubt Josh Allen is a bigger and stronger athlete, but to say that Zach Wilson is a "below average athlete" is moronic. He's a freak athlete and by no means is "small"

• Avg starting QB: 6'2 3/4", 220.7 lb.
• Zach WIlson: 6'2 1/8", 221 lb. 

Criticize Zach Wilson for his play, criticize him for having a baby face, but the Zach Wilson hate by some on this board borders on the line of insanity lol. I get that fans get emotional with their opinions/perspectives, but the amount of guys on here literally making up alternative realities to support their own opinions has reached a mindboggling level

in my neck of the woods i don't see that many 23 year old blonde haired UPS drivers.

the poster you are discussing with believes ZW was drafted by Woody due to his uncle starting JetBlue several decades ago  (nevermind he's left way before ZW was drafted).  

that being said, ZW is going to have to do a much better job putting up better performances otherwise i am happy to bring in a real Vet to replace him next year.

[Spoot-Face]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

I don't think we were ever beating the Bills regardless, but he needs to be good enough to beat NE

That's likely true, although, coming into the season, I wouldn't have expected them to go on the road and beat Pitt and Denver either. Every week since Pitt, this defense has been surprising me, and even the STs have shown up. Seems the only thing holding us back right now, aside from a few injuries, is the QB position. If Zach were to take some major strides, and we still lose against a better Buffalo team, I'd be okay with that.

The thing with the Patriots, even when they've been merely mediocre or worse in recent years, they always manhandled us because BB feasts on QBs like Wilson. It wouldn't surprise me if those games were the uglier ones between the two series.

Fact of the matter is, despite the lesser QBs we've faced, at 5-2, 3rd in the conference, and 1 game away from being tied for 1st in the division, this team is in a really good spot right now. I know it's early, but these 3 divisional games could be key if this team were to make the playoffs this year, a notion that I'd laugh at a mere 4 weeks ago.

 

 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Green Ghost said:

Why would we want either one of those?
Is asking us to choose between taking Zach’s performance and another poor one the best defense you can think of for him?

No, but I've seen many mentions on here that Pickett is lighting it up for the Steelers and he's ahead of Zach.  Those other stats were his from last night against Mia. 

[TBJ]

The Jets need to capitalize on their moment and accept their Zach Wilson mistake

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2022/10/24/23419855/zach-wilson-jets-broncos-nfl-2023-draft

[bitonti]

33 minutes ago, football guy said:

So now we're back to "don't take QBs 2nd overall that are not above average size for an NFL QB" lol... 

In regards to your statement about running the ball: you do realize that they dropped back to pass 32 times versus ran 20 times yesterday right? The game plan and game script is going to change every week. What's most important is that they're winning football games, and the coaches genuinely believe Zach is growing as a player each and every week by being able to play within the office. Whether they are right or wrong will ultimately be decided a few years from now 

2 overall is a premium pick that should be a premium player with rare attributes 

There's nothing really rare about Zach. He's got a live arm but his fundamentals are garbage 

Yes I watched yesterday's game and honestly they do not win it without breece hall 

Here's a question at what point does Zach put both feet on the ground when he throws? Is that a a year 4 thing? 

The franchise qb is supposed to elevate those around him. When does that happen? 

 

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Especially since its clear in the numbers that Zach has benefitted from YAC (5th most YAC per Completion among qualifying QB's).  

He's also largely been given enough time to throw, contrary to the "he's running for his life out there" argument that isn't really backed up in the data when compared to another QBs.

Zach's dwindling group of defenders are running out of excuses.

Is that time to throw directly from the snap , or does it factor in the scramble time, stats w/o context can be very misleading . 

[The Crusher]

34 minutes ago, Jet9 said:

So... we're losing to the Steelers in the AFC Championship game again?

League is so weird this year we still have a better  chance of getting to it than they do. 

[The Crusher]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

2 overall is a premium pick that should be a premium player with rare attributes 

There's nothing really rare about Zach. He's got a live arm but his fundamentals are garbage 

Yes I watched yesterday's game and honestly they do not win it without breece hall 

Here's a question at what point does Zach put both feet on the ground when he throws? Is that a a year 4 thing? 

The franchise qb is supposed to elevate those around him. When does that happen? 

 

All the time. On other teams. 

[bitonti]

20 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

 

the poster you are discussing with believes ZW was drafted by Woody due to his uncle starting JetBlue several decades ago 

Proving that I'm mentally ill is not the same as proving Zach is a decent qb 

It's called attacking the source and in debate circles that strategy means you've lost the argument 

There's no argument that Zach sucks ass there's a thousand different stats to prove it 

But if you want to make the argument that Bitonti is an erratic and inconsistent poster, well, you'll find no fight here 

The Jets are 5-2 on their way to 5-5 that's what's going to happen

Put it another way my posting abilities and Zach's qb abilities are both suspicious 

The difference is that no one is paying me 24 million dollars for my ice cold takes 

He's a huge asset or supposed to be but he has no trade value no fantasy value no other real things to point out. At least he is entertaining as a milf hunter because as a QB there's probably 50 backups that could turn in the same shifts 

If they are just going to throw 5 yard swings to the rb, anyone can do it. They could have drafted Bailey zappe and gotten better results 

Honest question would you trade wilson for zappe right now? Straight up? Probably not because this idea of upside. I just don't think Zach really has that much upside. Maybe he figures it out year 9 like Geno Smith or something. But the dude doesn't know how to play nfl qb and how many years will it take him to learn? 

 

[football guy]

2 minutes ago, CSNY said:

But that’s the problem. The WCO is predominantly geared to YAC but you need a accurate passer to hit receivers in stride and not have to turn around and catch a ball that’s behind him and Zach has failed to do it 

The answer to this is that the Jets believe Zach has the natural talent, understanding, and ability to be an accurate rhythmic passer. Whether they're right or wrong is TBD, but they think he will continue to improve in those areas with more reps and more understanding of the offense... so if you ask a coach to analyze some of these throws, I think they would tell you its more mentally being late than just not having the ability to be accurate (see Sanchez or Tim Tebow). This was the same problem Josh Allen had, but he overcame it because despite his poor collegian and early career completion percentage, he did possess a naturally accurate arm. 

Long-term they want a world beater at QB, just like every team does. They think Zach is capable of beating defenses a variety of ways as long as his development keeps going as planned. They think he has the talent, temperament, and ability to be one of those top 5/top 10 guys. Their short-term development points with him: (1) play within the offense; (2) trust the pocket and don't look to bail prematurely; (3) don't try to be superman all the time; (4) limit turnovers; (5) take what the defense gives you. So far he's doing exactly what they're asking of him. The stat that's glaring is how Zach has played in a clean pocket vs. under pressure. Clearly he's playing poorly under pressure, but the coaches would probably tell you they're still encouraged is because he's learning to play within the pocket. He's not bailing prematurely, he doesn't have happy feet, he's stepping up in the face of pressure and is showing no signs of it effecting him. The more he gets used to playing within structure, the better he will get at it. Whether they are right or wrong is anyone's guess.

 

I'm just like any other Jets fan. Emotionally I want to see him throw for 300 yards and 3 TDs every week, but at the end of the day I'm able to reason and logically evaluate what's going on, ask the right questions, and look at things a little more outside of my own perspective to see things the way those inside the building see them. I think this is a very methodical group with a plan, and if this group believes they're developing him the right way AND they're winning games AND they continue to stack the roster with talent around the QB I have no reason to believe they won't get the most out of him. Can't say that for former Jets administrations/coaching staffs

[oatmeal]

14 minutes ago, TBJ said:

The Jets need to capitalize on their moment and accept their Zach Wilson mistake

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2022/10/24/23419855/zach-wilson-jets-broncos-nfl-2023-draft

Good article I suggest all read the jet portion 

[56mehl56]

32 minutes ago, Reasonable Jets Fan said:

But why has lafluer eliminated slants the last two games.... Easy passes quick 3 step drops and the wr in front of his face

Probably because teams are getting pressure w/o blitzing , so this allows them to stack the box with their LB's and safeties. Stretching the field every now and then would soften that up. Now for this week against NE, I expect full out blitzing and the slants and quick outs should be effective. 

[Jet9]

15 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

League is so weird this year we still have a better  chance of getting to it than they do. 

Just feels like I've seen this movie before. 

[OCCH23]

49 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Zach can't hide behind Breece anymore.

The rest of the season will tell us exactly what we have.

I hate to call that "a blessing in disguise", but if we're looking for silver linings, you nailed it . . .

 

[Irish Jet]

There's just nothing to point to that will suggest he'd turn it around. Statistically he's terrible. Visually he's terrible. What good QB of the past 15 years looked this bad through 18 months? Who misses this many routine throws and goes on to make it?

People can point to Josh Allen but even he was showing far more at the same stage. There aren't even flashes with Zach, there were genuinely more with Darnold. Every pass he pushed down the field yesterday was awful - It shouldn't be so difficult at this point.

He was also sold as a guy who thrives off platform and the opposite has been the case - He gets considerably worse when flushed out of the pocket and worse he often throws off balance needlessly which makes his already bad accuracy worse. 

We just can't afford such limitations on the passing game long term. Garrett Wilson looked like Justin Jefferson 2.0 until Zach entered the picture, Elijah Moore is in open revolt - And this was all predictable, I think we all seen it coming whether we admitted it or not. I

t's obvious even with the play calling that we don't trust Zach - We've gone from an irrationally high output of passing to now trying to hide the QB. Some of that has been positive for sure and I think LaFleur was openly admitting that he was passing too much in those early games but it's now quite obvious that he's afraid of the QB. He's trying to play around him - That can work against Brett Rypien, Skylar Thompson and the corpse of Aaron Rodgers but it's quite obviously not sustainable.

[CSNY]

18 minutes ago, football guy said:

The answer to this is that the Jets believe Zach has the natural talent, understanding, and ability to be an accurate rhythmic passer. Whether they're right or wrong is TBD, but they think he will continue to improve in those areas with more reps and more understanding of the offense... so if you ask a coach to analyze some of these throws, I think they would tell you its more mentally being late than just not having the ability to be accurate (see Sanchez or Tim Tebow). This was the same problem Josh Allen had, but he overcame it because despite his poor collegian and early career completion percentage, he did possess a naturally accurate arm. 

Long-term they want a world beater at QB, just like every team does. They think Zach is capable of beating defenses a variety of ways as long as his development keeps going as planned. They think he has the talent, temperament, and ability to be one of those top 5/top 10 guys. Their short-term development points with him: (1) play within the offense; (2) trust the pocket and don't look to bail prematurely; (3) don't try to be superman all the time; (4) limit turnovers; (5) take what the defense gives you. So far he's doing exactly what they're asking of him. The stat that's glaring is how Zach has played in a clean pocket vs. under pressure. Clearly he's playing poorly under pressure, but the coaches would probably tell you they're still encouraged is because he's learning to play within the pocket. He's not bailing prematurely, he doesn't have happy feet, he's stepping up in the face of pressure and is showing no signs of it effecting him. The more he gets used to playing within structure, the better he will get at it. Whether they are right or wrong is anyone's guess.

 

I'm just like any other Jets fan. Emotionally I want to see him throw for 300 yards and 3 TDs every week, but at the end of the day I'm able to reason and logically evaluate what's going on, ask the right questions, and look at things a little more outside of my own perspective to see things the way those inside the building see them. I think this is a very methodical group with a plan, and if this group believes they're developing him the right way AND they're winning games AND they continue to stack the roster with talent around the QB I have no reason to believe they won't get the most out of him. Can't say that for former Jets administrations/coaching staffs

I truly don’t care about statistics since they really don’t tell the entire story  or 300 yards passing games or how many TD’s he throws as long as they win since I much prefer a ground and pound offensive approach. Now with that said when the Jets do throw , Zach has to be  at the very least able be an accurate passer and to this point he hasn’t really shown to be  that with any consistency which is alarming. Not ready to give up on him just yet as his talent is plainly evident but it is starting to be a legitimate concern 

[Warfish]

34 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The difference is that no one is paying me 24 million dollars for my ice cold takes 

Wait, Max doesn't pay you like he does me, @T0mShane, and (formerly) SAR1?

You need a better agent man.  

[peekskill68]

25 minutes ago, football guy said:

The answer to this is that the Jets believe Zach has the natural talent, understanding, and ability to be an accurate rhythmic passer. Whether they're right or wrong is TBD, but they think he will continue to improve in those areas with more reps and more understanding of the offense... so if you ask a coach to analyze some of these throws, I think they would tell you its more mentally being late than just not having the ability to be accurate (see Sanchez or Tim Tebow). This was the same problem Josh Allen had, but he overcame it because despite his poor collegian and early career completion percentage, he did possess a naturally accurate arm. 

What made Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc. so great wasn't their big arms.  It was their ability to analyze the defense pre snap and have a good idea of where they were going.  Manning took it to the next level with audibles/play changes at the line. When Zach figures out how to not get fooled by the defensive alignment, he will speed up his progressions and get rid of the ball faster and in rhythm.  

[football guy]

6 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

What made Peyton, Brady, Brees, etc. so great wasn't their big arms.  It was their ability to analyze the defense pre snap and have a good idea of where they were going.  Manning took it to the next level with audibles/play changes at the line. When Zach figures out how to not get fooled by the defensive alignment, he will speed up his progressions and get rid of the ball faster and in rhythm.  

Correct. And the team feels he has the head for it. 

I know we do a lot of unnecessary comparing to Josh Allen. I want to make it clear that they are not stylistic comps. If you want to make lofty comparisons, it would be to Aaron Rodgers and Patrick Mahomes. The comparisons are based on how the Bills developed a similarly raw-but-gifted passer in Allen. Douglas and the organization admired it from a distance. They saw a team with a very sound and flexible offensive staff integrate a development plan for him to help the team win games without asking him to do more than was necessary early on, progressively surrounded him with talent and slowly gave him more and more responsibilities. Despite everyone outside the organization being hyper-focused on his stats and writing him off as another Cam Newton, the Bills knew that when it all clicked it would be beautiful. 

I can't say whether it will all click for Zach. I don't know if he's going to be elite. I do know that he has the talent to be, I see him doing the little things the way the team is stressing him to do, I know there's a smart group of coaches that are developing him according to a plan that they think will result in him reaching that level, and a GM that is conscientious of the need to surround the position with talent. We'll know in due time but I'm not going to overreact just because the guy isn't hitting certain statistical thresholds that the team isn't even asking him to reach 

[SoFlaJets]

4 hours ago, chirorob said:

Trent Dilfer

Where did you find this answer Chiro?

[derp]

The team that he's on this year and next year is probably about as good a team as he's going to be on. The significant players are largely on rookie contracts. They've filled gaps with some veterans. Once the guys who stick around and get paid, the overall talent on the team is going to decrease. If he then gets to the point he earns a second contract, it'll decrease even more.

At this point he has to take a massive leap to get to the level of guys like Goff and Wentz who were excellent on their rookie deals supported with as much talent as they ever had an opportunity to play with. Then he's going to have to take another leap to be a franchise guy on a $40M a year contract or whatever QB's are making by the time he gets paid.

Is it possible? Sure. If I was employed by this team, saw the overall talent level and the window to take advantage of it, and my job performance was related to the team's performance, would I want to make the bet that he clicks in that way? I don't think so.

We'll see what bet the team wants to make, but I guess the point is that kind of like Darnold that rookie contract clock is important. You don't get things cooking on the rookie deal, it's kind of hard to justify 5xing your salary and expecting the team to remain competitive - and ultimately that's the bar to be a franchise QB, right?

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, football guy said:

Go sit with any independent QB coach and ask what they think play-to-play. I'll wait 

Ah so you've done this?

I can buy the expert take that the stats aren't telling the whole story and he's better than year 1, maybe having made a couple tier jumps at the position.  But night and day?  Come the f**k on.

[Irish Jet]

Just now, derp said:

The team that he's on this year and next year is probably about as good a team as he's going to be on. The significant players are largely on rookie contracts. They've filled gaps with some veterans. Once the guys who stick around and get paid, the overall talent on the team is going to decrease. If he then gets to the point he earns a second contract, it'll decrease even more.

At this point he has to take a massive leap to get to the level of guys like Goff and Wentz who were excellent on their rookie deals supported with as much talent as they ever had an opportunity to play with. Then he's going to have to take another leap to be a franchise guy on a $40M a year contract or whatever QB's are making by the time he gets paid.

Is it possible? Sure. If I was employed by this team, saw the overall talent level and the window to take advantage of it, and my job performance was related to the team's performance, would I want to make the bet that he clicks in that way? I don't think so. We'll see what bet the team wants to make, but kind of like Darnold that rookie contract clock is important. You don't get things cooking on the rookie deal, it's kind of hard to justify 5xing your salary and expecting the team to remain competitive - and ultimately that's the bar to be a franchise QB, right?

If he doesn't show improvement this year you cannot pencil him in as a starter for next year. If they do then Elijah Moore wont be the last to revolt. 

At the bare minimum you would bring in some decent veteran competition and make him earn the job. I can't emphasize enough how quickly the goodwill will wear off in the next few weeks if the performance level continues and the wins dry up. 

[Green Ghost]

1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

No, but I've seen many mentions on here that Pickett is lighting it up for the Steelers and he's ahead of Zach.  Those other stats were his from last night against Mia. 

I don’t see them saying Pickett is lighting it up, they’re saying he’s being allowed to take shots downfield while Wilson isn’t.. At least that’s what I’m reading?

I think someone would be hard pressed to say Pickett is lighting anything up.