Breece Hall & AVT - "Black Sunday" Brings Us Back To The Principal Issue

[Biggs]

2 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Here are a few more fans/posters/experts for you to fence with over Rush.  

https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/news-cowboys-fans-change-cooper-rush-takes-nfl-storm

https://brobible.com/sports/article/cowboys-fans-debate-cooper-rush-dak-prescott/#:~:text=To me%2C Cooper Rush is a better quarterback,makes better decisions and manages a game better.

https://www.thebiglead.com/posts/troy-aikman-cowboys-cooper-rush-dak-prescott-01gf8vg6fskm

 

Take a look at his stats, his last two games and then compare his season to Dak's career.  As Rush's sample size has grown his performance has gone down.  Dak's sample size says elite NFL QB.  

[jamesr]

1 hour ago, Barry McCockinner said:

It looks like Zach ain't it but no one will question his physical attributes and athleticism. QBs need to be developed and if you can develop one while you're relying on defense, running and special teams to win games, that's a luxury.

I forget who said it but basically you can break QB's into 3 buckets today. 

• QB's you win because of
• QB's you can win with
• QB's you lose because of

Zach so far this season has been clearly in the QB's you can win with bucket. You have to try and develop him into the QB's you win because of bucket. That's only going to happen with playing more.

Zach being in that middle bucket is progress of sorts ... in his early outings he was vey much in the "QB's you lose because of" group. He's making fewer mistakes - fewer INTs and taking fewer sacks (though I sometimes wonder HOW he is managing this).

Big challenge is - can you get those positive big plays back without getting the errors that go along with it? Or is it part and parcel of who Zach is? Still a lot unwritten on this, and Sunday is NOT the time to start finding out. 4th quarter heroics is one thing when you have no other option, but you don't want to open the game slinging it around.

 

[THE BARON]

5 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Take a look at his stats, his last two games and then compare his season to Dak's career.  As Rush's sample size has grown his performance has gone down.  Dak's sample size says elite NFL QB.  

Stats and stats and stats.  Did you even look at any of the comments/insights to be harvested in those links or who was making them ???

I don't mind being called out for my assessment here.  I'm in good company in being an idiot. 

[batman10023]

34 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Naw.  If you want to do that soft of thing, you have to be saturated with ball.  You also need a history and resume. I'm just a fan and I know it.  Scouts also have to do a lot of travel.   You have to want to do it from the get go and have it as a life work and passion.  Not for me

given your successful track record my guess is someone would give you a shot even if you don't travel.  

i mean you are killing it without the traveling part now.. wouldn't be fair to the other 31 teams if you could incorporate that tool in your arsenal 

[rex-n-effect]

The Jets aren't going to fish for a new QB after two years, especially not if they end with a winning record. Several positions still need solid starters and backups good enough to slide in and hold the fort. The OL is a huge issue with injuries. It would be a mistake to keep throwing novice QBs behind a line that falls apart less than halfway through the season. If the team is winning in spite of Wilson, it makes more sense to elevate the roster for another year. If Wilson isn't the guy, at least there is a team put together than many QBs would be happy to join. 

[jamesr]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

There are 3 or 4 "Good Teams" in this league.  A league that intentionally penalizes good teams and helps crappy teams with a cap and draft postion.  Who are these mythical great teams we face?   The Bills twice and who else?

Other than Buffalo, Miami (4-3), Seattle (4-3) and Minnesota (5-1) are the teams we have still to face who currently have winning records.

Led by the All Pro QBs Geno Smith and Kirk Cousins ... and who knows who we'll see for Miami in Week 18 at the rate they're getting hurt down there.  

[IndianaJet]

There's nothing that's going to be done about the QB this year....so we better all get used to sucking it up and hoping that sometime in the next 10 games we see Zach greatly improve.

 

 

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

I've decided I'm going to refer to this last game as "Black Sunday".  Losing BH and AVT in one game is beyond bad,  It is downright cruel.

After absorbing this for a spell, it took me back to the issue that most of us were considering even before the season started.  That being, QB.

As amazing has BH has been, he none the less still occupies the position of RB circa 2022.  We all know how much the 2022 NFL values ball carriers.  And, there is justification for that position no longer being valued as it was several decades ago when the centerpiece of an NFL offense was the ball carrier.

AVT has also been fantastic, even when moved to the outside.  Regardless,  he was drafted as an interior lineman and will do his best work on the inside.  Once again. few teams if any are drafting interior lineman very high in the draft.  Even fewer are putting much cap space into their interior offensive line.

We, all of us know that the tasks of passing the ball and preventing the other team from doing the same is the way a contemporary NFL team goes with the the grain as dictated by the rules.  Any other general strategy is nothing short of adopting the methods of swimming against the current.  It is a flawed doctrine.  One that puts a team at a disadvantage before they even take the field.

Considering this, we see teams dedicating generous cap space to the appropriate positions.  LT, CB, Edge Rushers and, above all...

QB

Losing BH and AVT is only a season killer in the sense that it brings the Jets paramount obstacle back into focus...

QB.

The Jet offense was leaning on the running game and showcasing the brilliant skills of BH as a save for the lack of production at the prime NFL position...

QB.

And, not that the Jets will be taking on a team with a coach that is well known to confound shaky QB's and will be doing so without the assistance of BH, we'll get even closer to the all encompassing problem of not having a bona fied franchise...

QB

Again... It hurts to lose BH and AVT, but with medical technology and the apparent work ethic of those to splendid players, I'm confident that we'll see them back next season and after some time on the field, back to top form.  But, the Jets will still be lacking a...

QB

THAT is what Jets fans should *REALLY* be worried about.  There wont be any problem for me watching Wilson get further exposed this Sunday.  I just hope the GM is watching and planning.   2023 draft will be here around the same time that BH and AVT will be well on their way back.

GFY. You basically stated you care more about Zach failing and the GM finding some new magical answer than the Jets continuing to win. As I look around the league I see it is just so easy to find a FQB. Another Zach bashing thread was not needed, and GFY again.

[Biggs]

12 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Stats and stats and stats.  Did you even look at any of the comments/insights to be harvested in those links or who was making them ???

I don't mind being called out for my assessment here.  I'm in good company in being an idiot. 

Dallas went 11 and 5 last year.  Dak had 37 TD passes and 10 INT's.  He completed 68.8 percent of his passes.  Had over 4,400 yards of passing.   Anyone saying Cooper Rush with his 57.7 completion percentage and 37.7 QB rating against the Eagles are full of sh*t.  

I get it after 2 or 3 games with the Dallas D playing fanatastic and Rush not making any bone head mistakes the fans got ahead of themselves.  It's why Jets fans think Stevlier is the best QB on our roster.  

No matter how good your QB is if you don't go to the SB you want to upgrade.  Dak is an elite NFL QB.  He's not greatest of all time but he's miles better than Cooper Rush and about 15 to 20 other NFL QB's.  

[FidelioJet]

Another Zach Wilson thread.   
 

This board was really lacking in one. Thanks OP 

[bostonmajet]

So, what you are saying is that as bad as the OL is, and losing our best offensive player wouldn't matter if we had a better QB? Aaron Rodgers (50 million a year) and Tom Brady say hello.

Are you saying that the Jets should have traded the world for Watson and then not give him the players that he needs as there is no cap space, nor premium picks to go around - how is that working for Cleveland?

We should have instead grabbed an available, experienced QB? Matt Ryan was benched; Denver (even before Wilson was hurt) says hello.

We should realize that ZW is crap after 1 1/2 seasons; if he is good now, he never will be - Geno fans say hello.

Exactly what should JD have done? Let's assume we can look into the future and know for all time that Zach is going to bust - what exactly should JD have done? A QB, especially a young one, needs time to throw, weapons, and a strong D to keep him in the game. So, by losing our best OL player and our best O, the conclusion is that had Brady, Rodgers, Ryan been here we would be kicking butt? Flacco, okay not the best QB, would have been killed by Denver.

I have a question (not directed towards OP), if you pick the outcome of the Jets over next 3 years and you had two choices: Jets win SB with ZW or ZW shows he is a bust, JD and Saleh get fired everyone admits you were right, and they bring in Payton, what would you pick? My guess is that a good chunk of the vocal members would be the latter.

[playtowinthegame]

Let Zach Cook. 

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

will he? what if 5-2 turns into 5-4 does he still ride and die with Zach? does he let the playoffs slip away cause he needs to see more of Zach? 

right now the way he is playing Flacco or White could do better.

Flacco is a disaster should not even be on this roster. White is 11 years younger has a much better grasp of the offense and gets the ball out much quicker to negate some of the pass rush. If Zach fails and they still put in Joe Flacco this season is certainly over. The only guy on this team to this point who never got a second chance was Mike White and that's understandable due to Zach but its not in any way understandable playing Joe Flacco.

[Scott Dierking]

45 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

If you are a GM and you make such a decision, you'd get lambasted from every angle.  JD cant come out now and say he's given up on ZW.  This being a fan forum and me being a fan as are all of us here, we can offer up such opinions. If we didn't where would sports talk be ???  

As fans, we participate as fans.   We don't get fired.  We get flamed and then move on to the next thread and play "expert"

 

Where did I criticize anyone as such?

[Phillyjet]

I know folks were talking about the worst gut-punches we've had from injuries, and certainly Vinny 99 was the worst, but I continue to recall the Sunday we went out to play the Raiders, and Leon Washington blew out his knee.  I've been spooked by RB injuries ever since.

[UnknownJetFan]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

I've decided I'm going to refer to this last game as "Black Sunday".  Losing BH and AVT in one game is beyond bad,  It is downright cruel.

After absorbing this for a spell, it took me back to the issue that most of us were considering even before the season started.  That being, QB.

As amazing has BH has been, he none the less still occupies the position of RB circa 2022.  We all know how much the 2022 NFL values ball carriers.  And, there is justification for that position no longer being valued as it was several decades ago when the centerpiece of an NFL offense was the ball carrier.

AVT has also been fantastic, even when moved to the outside.  Regardless,  he was drafted as an interior lineman and will do his best work on the inside.  Once again. few teams if any are drafting interior lineman very high in the draft.  Even fewer are putting much cap space into their interior offensive line.

We, all of us know that the tasks of passing the ball and preventing the other team from doing the same is the way a contemporary NFL team goes with the the grain as dictated by the rules.  Any other general strategy is nothing short of adopting the methods of swimming against the current.  It is a flawed doctrine.  One that puts a team at a disadvantage before they even take the field.

Considering this, we see teams dedicating generous cap space to the appropriate positions.  LT, CB, Edge Rushers and, above all...

QB

Losing BH and AVT is only a season killer in the sense that it brings the Jets paramount obstacle back into focus...

QB.

The Jet offense was leaning on the running game and showcasing the brilliant skills of BH as a save for the lack of production at the prime NFL position...

QB.

And, not that the Jets will be taking on a team with a coach that is well known to confound shaky QB's and will be doing so without the assistance of BH, we'll get even closer to the all encompassing problem of not having a bona fied franchise...

QB

Again... It hurts to lose BH and AVT, but with medical technology and the apparent work ethic of those to splendid players, I'm confident that we'll see them back next season and after some time on the field, back to top form.  But, the Jets will still be lacking a...

QB

THAT is what Jets fans should *REALLY* be worried about.  There wont be any problem for me watching Wilson get further exposed this Sunday.  I just hope the GM is watching and planning.   2023 draft will be here around the same time that BH and AVT will be well on their way back.

You are assuming already the QB cannot grow into a very good to great one. We do not know that and as you said now will find out which we need to. So, I am changing my way of thinking a bit and to make a long story short, while it may thrill many Jet fans to get the success the 2019/2010 Jets with AFC Championship runs, even then and of course now, we do not want to be stopped or limited by run games and defenses that once you go far enough will fail to get us the SB we covet. To get that goal that we all want another SB trophy we need very good to great QB play. Now we have the WRs to do it, we need to let Zack try to grow into that role as soon as he can like this year or next year, and not mask anything completely with great running games and defenses that stop many teams, but in the playoffs likely won't completely stop teams like KC, the Bills, etc.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

He's playing very well in year 4 with a one of the best coaches in the league.  He's developing into a very good starting QB.  Zach's future isn't done being written. 

Jones is in his 1st year with a new HC and OC. new system. Zach is in his 2nd year with the same stuff. he should be farther along than Jones. or at least not as bad as he has been.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Ken Schroy said:

It took Jones 4 yrs, but Zach is still doing bad things after 17 games and 1 pre-season. OK.

so what. chances are they dont resign him. look at Trubinsky.

4 yrs in Chicago

W-L 29-21

comp % 64

yards   10,609

TDs  64

INTs  37

INT%  2.3

Yet they still got rid of him cause they knew he wasnt a good enough QB to get them anywhere. this one year wonder after 3 crappy years doesnt mean anything. Jones is gone after the year

[Integrity28]

So, we can’t hide Zach anymore? Kid better ball the eff out.

[August]

The nice part about this season is that we are winning while getting a clear answer on Zach. This season would be miserable if we were 0-7, 1-6 and Zach was playing like this. 

[doitny]

28 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Flacco is a disaster should not even be on this roster. White is 11 years younger has a much better grasp of the offense and gets the ball out much quicker to negate some of the pass rush. If Zach fails and they still put in Joe Flacco this season is certainly over. The only guy on this team to this point who never got a second chance was Mike White and that's understandable due to Zach but its not in any way understandable playing Joe Flacco.

i dont care if its Flacco or White. dont let the playoffs slip away if Zach is playing this bad. 

Moore said out load with i think others are thinking too. if they keep forcing a bad QB down their throats we could have a mutiny. 

[FactsOnly]

Did you watch the Steelers game?

burrow threw 4 picks week 1

yall don’t know sh*t about football 

[FactsOnly]

37 minutes ago, doitny said:

Jones is in his 1st year with a new HC and OC. new system. Zach is in his 2nd year with the same stuff. he should be farther along than Jones. or at least not as bad as he has been.

He’s played the equivalent of 1 season

Another shill

[thebuzzardman]

Lot of words for "Zach sucks"

[Ken Schroy]

28 minutes ago, doitny said:

so what. chances are they dont resign him. look at Trubinsky.

4 yrs in Chicago

W-L 29-21

comp % 64

yards   10,609

TDs  64

INTs  37

INT%  2.3

Yet they still got rid of him cause they knew he wasnt a good enough QB to get them anywhere. this one year wonder after 3 crappy years doesnt mean anything. Jones is gone after the year

I'm not sold on Jones, the other poster called him an excellent QB.

[Ken Schroy]

26 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

So, we can’t hide Zach anymore? Kid better ball the eff out.

Yep. OC needs to get it together too.

[Barry McCockinner]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

I knew nothing about Rush last season.  After watching one game this season, I liked him a lot.  Better than Prescott. It took me one game.  Just one.

I always felt Jalen Hurts would be a good NFL QB.  I was right.

I was POSITIVE Daniel Jones was flawed in a way that ensured he would never get the Giants past a good playoff team.  No pocket awareness.  He'll throw a bunch of nice passes and then, drop back, not see the edge pressure, get hit and burp up the ball.   I was right... BUT, Daboll and the OC know it and they are limiting his exposure in very cleaver ways.  

Wilson looks the same now as he has looked the first time out.  Issues with fundamentals, bails on a clean pocket, does not set his feel correctly after the expected excursion to his right, does not complete the progression before going mobile, constant ball placement and timing issues.  He is awful and getting no better.  

I completely disagree Zach looks the same as his first time out. While not good yet, he has really cleaned up the negative plays he was creating and turns a lot of should be negative plays into "not negative" plays by escaping pressure and throwing the ball away.

There were a few plays this week where he made the Broncos pass rushers look stupid and ended up throwing the ball away. If Flacco were in there those plays were definitely sacks and probably fumbles.

I see a kid who is learning how to manipulate the pass rush. I think he's going to turn it around soon and start turning some of those would have been negative plays into positive plays rather than the "not negative" plays he's turning them into now. That's when he'll start to elevate himself.

[Chewy and the Jets]

Is it possible that someone has started another Zach Wilson sucks thread?  17 games into his career and about 8000 threads on this site about how he sucks.  So that's just under 500 threads per game started under some guise that ultimately becomes a Zach sucks thread.  And he even  played well a few of those games.   Lets mix it up a bit and star threads about:

The weather sunday:  heard it might be a wet one.  Get ready for a sloppy game.  Lord knows our QB can't play well in dry conditions and his small hands will surely lose grip on the ball if it rains.  Zach sucks.

AFC East:  key to the playoffs will be winning division games.  Unfortunately we have the 5st best QB in the division aka Zach Sucks.

4-0 on the Road:  hard to believe we beat  Pitt, GB, and Den on the road.  Those are like death valley for us.  And if Zach didn't suck so bad we would've won them by a more comfortable margin.

Injuries:  with Breece Hall and Vera Tucker down we will probably have to go to more of a passing game.  Unfortunately Zach sucks.

Maybe he does suck but can we just please stfu about it for 5 minutes.  He is 4-0.  4-0.  THAT IS THE PRINCIPLE.  He just beat Pitt, GB, and Denver on the road.  We are 5-2 and gong against the Patriots who have beaten us 12 times in a row.  You know what?  I hope Zach Wilson sucks so bad that we break that streak as well.   Vegas has us at 5 1/2 wins this season.  We have 5 with 10 games to play.  Can we just try to enjoy this without sh*tting all over this kid.   Otherwise what's the point if it's only gonna be nothing but aggravation even when we are winning.  

And that's all I've got to say about that...

 

 

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

So, what you are saying is that as bad as the OL is, and losing our best offensive player wouldn't matter if we had a better QB? Aaron Rodgers (50 million a year) and Tom Brady say hello.

Are you saying that the Jets should have traded the world for Watson and then not give him the players that he needs as there is no cap space, nor premium picks to go around - how is that working for Cleveland?

We should have instead grabbed an available, experienced QB? Matt Ryan was benched; Denver (even before Wilson was hurt) says hello.

We should realize that ZW is crap after 1 1/2 seasons; if he is good now, he never will be - Geno fans say hello.

Exactly what should JD have done? Let's assume we can look into the future and know for all time that Zach is going to bust - what exactly should JD have done? A QB, especially a young one, needs time to throw, weapons, and a strong D to keep him in the game. So, by losing our best OL player and our best O, the conclusion is that had Brady, Rodgers, Ryan been here we would be kicking butt? Flacco, okay not the best QB, would have been killed by Denver.

I have a question (not directed towards OP), if you pick the outcome of the Jets over next 3 years and you had two choices: Jets win SB with ZW or ZW shows he is a bust, JD and Saleh get fired everyone admits you were right, and they bring in Payton, what would you pick? My guess is that a good chunk of the vocal members would be the latter.

I think your putting a lot of words in the OPs mouth that he never said.

What he was trying to say is that if ZW doesn’t improve dramatically over the remainder of the season, we should start looking for our next QB. 

I happen to agree. Thru 1.5 seasons he ranks last or next to last in almost every statistical category. We will see what his numbers look like at the end of the year but if he still is the bottom of the barrel we should Draft a qb or sign a vet with upside that can compete with ZW

yes we are winning now and that’s great. But it’s certainly not because of ZW. This is a QB driven league and right now all indications are saying that we don’t have 1. 

Can Zach change the narrative over the 2nd half of the season? Of course. But in my eyes it’s unlikely.

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

Jones is in his 1st year with a new HC and OC. new system. Zach is in his 2nd year with the same stuff. he should be farther along than Jones. or at least not as bad as he has been.

Saleh and Lefleur aren't Daboll.  

[doitny]

23 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I completely disagree Zach looks the same as his first time out. While not good yet, he has really cleaned up the negative plays he was creating and turns a lot of should be negative plays into "not negative" plays by escaping pressure and throwing the ball away.

There were a few plays this week where he made the Broncos pass rushers look stupid and ended up throwing the ball away. If Flacco were in there those plays were definitely sacks and probably fumbles.

I see a kid who is learning how to manipulate the pass rush. I think he's going to turn it around soon and start turning some of those would have been negative plays into positive plays rather than the "not negative" plays he's turning them into now. That's when he'll start to elevate himself.

i think he is playing Russian roulette with the "no negative plays". its not because of his good play but by luck. i think it will soon catch up to him.

Flaccos 2 strip sacks came from the blind side. i doubt Zach would have seen that coming either. but if Flacco gets pressure in his face he will stay and try to make a play. Zach runs as soon as he sees pressure. and never does anything with it. 

if im opposing defenses i do that all game. send a free runner in Zachs face and the play is over. 

 

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, batman10023 said:

given your successful track record my guess is someone would give you a shot even if you don't travel.  

i mean you are killing it without the traveling part now.. wouldn't be fair to the other 31 teams if you could incorporate that tool in your arsenal 

I think you have been key at recognizing my talents.  Since you have recognized my scouting prowess, you can send Woody a resume' for the GM job.  I will vouch for you   

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

Where did I criticize anyone as such?

You would not be a good sports board poster if you didn't.  This is a forum for the anti-expert.  We all need to be called out.  

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, UnknownJetFan said:

You are assuming already the QB cannot grow into a very good to great one. We do not know that and as you said now will find out which we need to. So, I am changing my way of thinking a bit and to make a long story short, while it may thrill many Jet fans to get the success the 2019/2010 Jets with AFC Championship runs, even then and of course now, we do not want to be stopped or limited by run games and defenses that once you go far enough will fail to get us the SB we covet. To get that goal that we all want another SB trophy we need very good to great QB play. Now we have the WRs to do it, we need to let Zack try to grow into that role as soon as he can like this year or next year, and not mask anything completely with great running games and defenses that stop many teams, but in the playoffs likely won't completely stop teams like KC, the Bills, etc.

all good points.  they have to play the games.  

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, August said:

The nice part about this season is that we are winning while getting a clear answer on Zach. This season would be miserable if we were 0-7, 1-6 and Zach was playing like this. 

yes.  the best of both worlds.  winning while qb has trial by fire.  we'll all get our answers on the qb before the season is out.