Breece Hall & AVT - "Black Sunday" Brings Us Back To The Principal Issue

[LionelRichie]

4 hours ago, THE BARON said:

JD has to admit that ZW was a bad pick and start researching the QB's that will be available in the 2023 draft.  He had bad picks with Becton and Wilson that many had on their "do not draft" list, but since then, JD has had a hot hand.  It is understandable that JD reached for Zach Wilson in his first year as Jet's GM.  They needed a QB and there was some reasonable substance to the hope that ZW's great physical skills that we saw at BYU would transition to the NFL.  It was a reach, but not such a bad one.  

Now, we can all see that ZW is not going to be a good NFL QB.  This coming NE game will be good for the Jets in general.  Without Hall, they will doubtless look to rely on passing a bit more.  Against BB, Wilson's issues will only be magnified.  I'm HOPING it will help JD resign himself to moving on and throw himself into extending his recent hot hand with the drat into 2023 with the QB being his next master stroke

They aren't asking him to be Mahomes they are looking for like a Tannehill/Cousins/Mariotta type where the running game generates offense and the QB's job is to make some plays but most importantly not lose the game.    Frankly, I think this is the "new" approach to create a 'plug-and-play' offense and avoid paying $50M to a QB.    

[THE BARON]

2 minutes ago, LionelRichie said:

They aren't asking him to be Mahomes they are looking for like a Tannehill/Cousins/Mariotta type where the running game generates offense and the QB's job is to make some plays but most importantly not lose the game.    Frankly, I think this is the "new" approach to create a 'plug-and-play' offense and avoid paying $50M to a QB.    

I think they would love Mahommes.  Who wouldn't ??? They have been forced to work with ZW the way teams were forced to work with marginal QB talent. as you have listed above.   Very much like the Rex Jets with Sanchez.  If they had a prolific passer, the Rex Jets and Saleh Jets would have been taking good advantage. 

I go back again to the power rankings.  The top teams are always getting super good QB play.  There may be an outlier in that respect once in a while, but the rules dictate that you must pass the ball and do it well in order to be a team that wins in December - January and one game in Feb. 

[batman10023]

39 minutes ago, LionelRichie said:

They aren't asking him to be Mahomes they are looking for like a Tannehill/Cousins/Mariotta type where the running game generates offense and the QB's job is to make some plays but most importantly not lose the game.    Frankly, I think this is the "new" approach to create a 'plug-and-play' offense and avoid paying $50M to a QB.    

Still have to pay 30mm for this position.  

[jamesr]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

 

if im opposing defenses i do that all game. send a free runner in Zachs face and the play is over. 

 

I'm amazed more defenses don't think of this ... just call the plays that allow an unblocked pass rusher up the middle every play.

I think you're on to something there.  ?

[Barry McCockinner]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

i think he is playing Russian roulette with the "no negative plays". its not because of his good play but by luck. i think it will soon catch up to him.

Flaccos 2 strip sacks came from the blind side. i doubt Zach would have seen that coming either. but if Flacco gets pressure in his face he will stay and try to make a play. Zach runs as soon as he sees pressure. and never does anything with it. 

if im opposing defenses i do that all game. send a free runner in Zachs face and the play is over. 

 

I can see where you're coming from w/the Russian roulette thing, and that probably is the case some of the time. Hell he probably got let off the hook on that ridiculous "not fumble" play to the d-lineman. Part of the whole thing is he needs to learn when it's time to put up the white flag. But damn he really made the broncos pass rush look stupid at times. He had them running into each other and falling over. Not a lot of guys can do that. If he figures out the happy medium there and learns to compose himself after escaping danger a lot of good things can follow.

 

[bostonmajet]

4 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

I think your putting a lot of words in the OPs mouth that he never said.

What he was trying to say is that if ZW doesn’t improve dramatically over the remainder of the season, we should start looking for our next QB. 

I happen to agree. Thru 1.5 seasons he ranks last or next to last in almost every statistical category. We will see what his numbers look like at the end of the year but if he still is the bottom of the barrel we should Draft a qb or sign a vet with upside that can compete with ZW

yes we are winning now and that’s great. But it’s certainly not because of ZW. This is a QB driven league and right now all indications are saying that we don’t have 1. 

Can Zach change the narrative over the 2nd half of the season? Of course. But in my eyes it’s unlikely.

Fair enough, but I would say that a QB who lost the best OL player on an already week OL, and who lost his best O skill player isn't likely going to excel. I was pointing out that there are quality QBs who are loosing because of weak OL and skill players. To judge a 2nd year QB because he cannot excel in a bad offense is a bit shaky. I guess it fortunate that JD and Saleh will be making those evaluations.

There was a huge post about teams investing in their QBs and I responded with here are all the investments that are not paying off because of a variety of reasons. I don't think you can expect ZW to necessarily overcome these problems in his 2nd year, nor can you assume that if he doesn't he needs to go. I do agree, however, how he moves forward (even if in failure) is certainly indicative to the chances of him becoming a franchise QB.

Good news maybe Mac Jones or Zappe - whom everyone seems to love - might be available in a couple of years.

[Integrity28]

7 hours ago, Ken Schroy said:

Yep. OC needs to get it together too.

Do we need Mike White and Josh Johnson to remind folks it wasn’t the OC last year, and it’s really not this year?

[Integrity28]

7 hours ago, Chewy and the Jets said:

And that's all I've got to say about that...

 

100% chance this is false.

[SickJetFan]

5 hours ago, jamesr said:

I'm amazed more defenses don't think of this ... just call the plays that allow an unblocked pass rusher up the middle every play.

I think you're on to something there.  ?

I wish we could get free runners to hit opposing QBs or get in their face every play but those pesky lineman keep getting in the way

[More Cowbell]

10 hours ago, THE BARON said:

I've decided I'm going to refer to this last game as "Black Sunday".  Losing BH and AVT in one game is beyond bad,  It is downright cruel.

After absorbing this for a spell, it took me back to the issue that most of us were considering even before the season started.  That being, QB.

As amazing has BH has been, he none the less still occupies the position of RB circa 2022.  We all know how much the 2022 NFL values ball carriers.  And, there is justification for that position no longer being valued as it was several decades ago when the centerpiece of an NFL offense was the ball carrier.

AVT has also been fantastic, even when moved to the outside.  Regardless,  he was drafted as an interior lineman and will do his best work on the inside.  Once again. few teams if any are drafting interior lineman very high in the draft.  Even fewer are putting much cap space into their interior offensive line.

We, all of us know that the tasks of passing the ball and preventing the other team from doing the same is the way a contemporary NFL team goes with the the grain as dictated by the rules.  Any other general strategy is nothing short of adopting the methods of swimming against the current.  It is a flawed doctrine.  One that puts a team at a disadvantage before they even take the field.

Considering this, we see teams dedicating generous cap space to the appropriate positions.  LT, CB, Edge Rushers and, above all...

QB

Losing BH and AVT is only a season killer in the sense that it brings the Jets paramount obstacle back into focus...

QB.

The Jet offense was leaning on the running game and showcasing the brilliant skills of BH as a save for the lack of production at the prime NFL position...

QB.

And, now that the Jets will be taking on a team with a coach that is well known to confound shaky QB's.  And, they will be doing so without the assistance of BH.  Now, we'll get even closer to the all encompassing problem of not having a bona fied franchise...

QB

Again... It hurts to lose BH and AVT, but with medical technology and the apparent work ethic of those two splendid players, I'm confident that we'll see them back next season and after some time on the field, back to top form.  But, the Jets will still be lacking a...

QB

THAT is what Jets fans should *REALLY* be worried about.  There wont be any problem for me watching Wilson get further exposed this Sunday.  I just hope the GM is watching and planning.   2023 draft will be here around the same time that BH and AVT will be well on their way back.

This took a lot of thought and time to write. That said, find a new hobby. Yes, RB is so insignificant,  instead of rolling with what we have, we ran out and Traded for another......wait for it.........RB. 

[THE BARON]

15 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

This took a lot of thought and time to write. That said, find a new hobby. Yes, RB is so insignificant,  instead of rolling with what we have, we ran out and Traded for another......wait for it.........RB. 

I can see why you consider putting thoughts into writing a "hobby".  Your reasoning here is flawed. Badly.  Teams need to keep serviceable ball carriers on the roster regardless of how undervalued the position is in the contemporary NFL.  If you want to serve up quality insults, give your brain a chance to reason things out before you push send.  

[Barton]

Losing AVT sucks pretty bad but losing Breece really blows. Easily the most talented Jets RB we have seen in over 20 years. Hall of Fame talent who was on pace to be a 1st team all pro as a rookie. And to tear an ACL and you are a running back? Jeez. AVT will bounce back just fine but we shall see with Breece. Is it even possible he doesnt lose some kind of quickness or long speed? Such a dagger to the heart. 

[More Cowbell]

5 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I can see why you consider putting thoughts into writing a "hobby".  Your reasoning here is flawed. Badly.  Teams need to keep serviceable ball carriers on the roster regardless of how undervalued the position is in the contemporary NFL.  If you want to serve up quality insults, give your brain a chance to reason things out before you push send.  

Actually I put very little thought into it, so wrong again. Oh, Ty Johnson and MC are serviceable  RBs so you are wrong twice now in this reply. They aren't  great like BH but they are serviceable. Maybe I'm not the one who had the brain issue here. 

[Smashmouth]

8 hours ago, doitny said:

i dont care if its Flacco or White. dont let the playoffs slip away if Zach is playing this bad. 

Moore said out load with i think others are thinking too. if they keep forcing a bad QB down their throats we could have a mutiny. 

did Moore really say that ?

[Smashmouth]

7 minutes ago, Barton said:

Losing AVT sucks pretty bad but losing Breece really blows. Easily the most talented Jets RB we have seen in over 20 years. Hall of Fame talent who was on pace to be a 1st team all pro as a rookie. And to tear an ACL and you are a running back? Jeez. AVT will bounce back just fine but we shall see with Breece. Is it even possible he doesnt lose some kind of quickness or long speed? Such a dagger to the heart. 

Cool thing about Breece is he's a very patient runner he's not overly flashy when he finds his spot is burst full speed ahead. So he's not making crazy cuts all over the field he makes subtle cuts that's why its so weird how he got the injury in the first place . Didn't even look like an ACL injury I thought he got hit in the head.

[THE BARON]

10 minutes ago, More Cowbell said:

Actually I put very little thought into it, so wrong again. Oh, Ty Johnson and MC are serviceable  RBs so you are wrong twice now in this reply. They aren't  great like BH but they are serviceable. Maybe I'm not the one who had the brain issue here. 

 Let me help. 

The compelling point of the original post was to call attention to the sublime importance of the QB position and the Jets critical lack of manpower in that spot.   There was nothing in that post that understated the excellent quality of Breece Hall or the fact that teams do need ball carriers.

If you want to piss on my post, the way to do it is to question my conclusions on Wilson.

Although my evaluation of Wilson includes criticisms that are well founded, my assessment of Wilson is still supposition. 

You miss the target if you color me a dope for misunderstanding the importance of having a good ball carrier.  Point out that I am dope for my incorrect take on Zach Wilson.  Remember, he's only halfway into his second season.  That wins in court. 

You don't need more cowbell.  Just basic logic 101. 

[THE BARON]

14 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Cool thing about Breece is he's a very patient runner he's not overly flashy when he finds his spot is burst full speed ahead. 

Just like LeVeon Bell before he slowed down. 

[More Cowbell]

14 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

 Let me help. 

The compelling point of the original post was to call attention to the sublime importance of the QB position and the Jets critical lack of manpower in that spot.   There was nothing in that post that understated the excellent quality of Breece Hall or the fact that teams do need ball carriers.

If you want to piss on my post, the way to do it is to question my conclusions on Wilson.

Although my evaluation of Wilson includes criticisms that are well founded, my assessment of Wilson is still supposition. 

You miss the target if you color me a dope for misunderstanding the importance of having a good ball carrier.  Point out that I am dope for my incorrect take on Zach Wilson.  Remember, he's only halfway into his second season.  That wins in court. 

You don't need more cowbell.  Just basic logic 101. 

I didn't  read this entire post because  what I did read is lot of nonsense like the OP. 

Look, the RB position is not as important as it was but it isn't  insignificant  as you were alluding to. No, you weren't  negative about Breece becaise that would mean you were insane but younare missing the point to why JD ran out and didn't  even wait a week to see if Zach can carry the team. This is a giant message that he has seen nothing to make him trust Zach to carry this team. We are still going to run the crap out of the ball. I find posts like yours to be obtuse. That is why I wrote what I did. I mean seriously,  you haven't  been able to evaluate the QB position? 3 games, no TDs. Less than 300 passing yards in the last two games. Oh, no turnovers and we won 4 in a row so basically we at least know we have a good CS. Our QB is the least of all reasons we have won. This can change but I am really having a hard time being positive about the future of this QB. The talent excuse isn't  there anymore. He has pass catchers. You want to blame the OL, sure, but maybe Zach could figure out he has to pass the ball quicker so he isn't  running for his life every play. 

[Jetsfan80]

12 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Remember Garrett Wilson?

Good times.

RIP Garrett

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

did Moore really say that ?

he did say he was unhappy with his targets. i take that as the QB cant find him. he is overthrowing targets, and when he does complete passes half of them have to twist around to catch them.

we are not happy with the QB play, dont you think the team isnt happy either? he is the worst rated QB in the league.

if we were losing then whats the difference. but we are 5-2 and the playoffs are a real thing. if we start losing and the playoffs are in jeopardy, we will lose this locker room if Zach is still playing bad.

Flacco is a vet who is not scared of blitzs. he will stay in the pocket and try to make a play. White had that 400 yd game vs Cinny. we dont have Luke Falk as a backups. we have 2 capable guys. we got to try.

 

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Smashmouth said:

Cool thing about Breece is he's a very patient runner he's not overly flashy when he finds his spot is burst full speed ahead. So he's not making crazy cuts all over the field he makes subtle cuts that's why its so weird how he got the injury in the first place . Didn't even look like an ACL injury I thought he got hit in the head.

i was afraid we would get a RB injured sooner or later. when teams key on the run they put more in the box and thats more guys who can hit your runner. i thought GW was going to get injured when those 5 guys bodyslamed him at the LOS.

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

RIP Garrett

poor guy was on his way to ROY. now he wont even get a vote. and he is probably the best WR in the last draft.

[Hex]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Do we need Mike White and Josh Johnson to remind folks it wasn’t the OC last year, and it’s really not this year?

To be fair, LaFleur had a lot of really uncreative plays in a lot of those 3 and outs. Zach playing terribly didn't help but it's not like it's a one-man problem.

[TuscanyTile2]

13 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Breece hall proved to be worth a top 5 pick. Kid is going to be in the ring of honor for us 

No he didn't.  Yes he played outstanding while healthy but he plays a position where players get injured all the time (and have a short shelf-life to begin with).  Saquon was terrific too but also hurt himself.  I don't see how you can ever justify a RB in the top 5.

[Hex]

1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

No he didn't.  Yes he played outstanding while healthy but he plays a position where players get injured all the time (and have a short shelf-life to begin with).  Saquon was terrific too but also hurt himself.  I don't see how you can ever justify a RB in the top 5.

50 years ago that might have been the case, when the RB was much more commonly the centerpiece of the offense. Now, it's more important to pick at premium positions that have a longer shelf life.

[SuicidalSince98]

2 hours ago, Barton said:

Losing AVT sucks pretty bad but losing Breece really blows. Easily the most talented Jets RB we have seen in over 20 years. Hall of Fame talent who was on pace to be a 1st team all pro as a rookie. And to tear an ACL and you are a running back? Jeez. AVT will bounce back just fine but we shall see with Breece. Is it even possible he doesnt lose some kind of quickness or long speed? Such a dagger to the heart. 

Breece is 21 years old. Players come back from acls 100%. 

[Maynard13]

13 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

Remember Garrett Wilson?

Good times.

Next to demand a trade ?

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

he did say he was unhappy with his targets. i take that as the QB cant find him. he is overthrowing targets, and when he does complete passes half of them have to twist around to catch them.

we are not happy with the QB play, dont you think the team isnt happy either? he is the worst rated QB in the league.

if we were losing then whats the difference. but we are 5-2 and the playoffs are a real thing. if we start losing and the playoffs are in jeopardy, we will lose this locker room if Zach is still playing bad.

Flacco is a vet who is not scared of blitzs. he will stay in the pocket and try to make a play. White had that 400 yd game vs Cinny. we dont have Luke Falk as a backups. we have 2 capable guys. we got to try.

 

Well in that respect i agree with everything you are saying because I've been saying it for 2 years and been called a Zach hater

I don't hate Zach and I'm not saying you said that but he stinks and I think Mike White runs this offense leaps and bounds better than both Zach and Flunco .But I'm afraid this team , if Zach continues to suck , will bring in Joe Flacco and I can't watch that slow motion bullsh*t again.

[jamesr]

6 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

I wish we could get free runners to hit opposing QBs or get in their face every play but those pesky lineman keep getting in the way

There ought to be rules against that sort of thing!   

[doitny]

5 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Well in that respect i agree with everything you are saying because I've been saying it for 2 years and been called a Zach hater

I don't hate Zach and I'm not saying you said that but he stinks and I think Mike White runs this offense leaps and bounds better than both Zach and Flunco .But I'm afraid this team , if Zach continues to suck , will bring in Joe Flacco and I can't watch that slow motion bullsh*t again.

nobody hates Zach or anybody on this team. its just a term people use. we just dont think he is very good.

i was probably one of the guys you argued with last year as i defended Zach and hated ( there's that word again lol) Mike White. i just thought one year was too soon. but im not seeing any signifgant improvement. he is 4-0 and thats all anybody really has to defend him. if Flacco or White dont throw it 54 times and let Hall beat teams then they would be 4-0 too. not sure why that was the gameplan for 3 weeks.

i dont think White is good but i am willing to give him a shot, thats how much i think Zach doesnt have it. i cant take another run backwards out of the pocket, do a little dance and then make a throw that scares the living sh*t out of me.

White has not dressed since Zach came back. so your right its probably Flacco. but i doubt Saleh has the balls to bench Zach even for a half unless will go on a big losing streak.

[Barton]

7 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Breece is 21 years old. Players come back from acls 100%. 

Like who?

[Jet Nut]

21 hours ago, Ken Schroy said:

So what is your conclusion/solution?

None, just a bitch about the 4-0 QB

[SuicidalSince98]

24 minutes ago, Barton said:

Like who?

Adrian Peterson, Dalvin Cook, Nick Chubb etc etc 

[Jet Nut]

20 hours ago, Biggs said:

Rush has been protected, he's stats are bad and he plays on a team with a great run game and defense.  He's stats are bad.  Dak's stats are good, real good.  

If watched Dallas and I'vs looked at the tape.  The guy is a classic back up NFL QB who might not stick in the league.  

Rush is a classic backup like Mike White, only Rush has had more than one game.

[BCJet]

27 minutes ago, Barton said:

Like who?

Dalvin Cook, Saquan Barkely, Frank Gore, Jamal Lewis - its not a devastating injury anymore and thankfully it was just his ACL with minimal impact to the MCL.  Other more devastating knee injuries include the PCL which is much more severe