What Will It Take To Finally Trust Zach "The Enigma" Wilson?

[Integrity28]

Just now, SuicidalSince98 said:

Quite honestly, you are taking two games where we leaned on our run game and defense, against two elite defenses, in the toughest environments to play in the nfl, where the qB protected the football and won, as some sort of career indictment.

Herbert threw for 237 and an int on FIFTY SEVEN pass attempts against Denver, at home. Get a grip . 

No, not really.

I am simply making the argument that it’s time for him to be better. You are extrapolating it to a larger narrative of ‘career indictment’, because that’s what makes sense in your brain, I guess.

Expecting our QB to be better than absolutely awful is pretty standard stuff on a fan forum. Nobody is inviting you to debate it. Especially not with points that evade observation and context and immediately fall flat as juvenile dishonest debate.

Put me on ignore, if you are this shook by pragmatic points of view.

[SuicidalSince98]

Just now, Integrity28 said:

No, not really.

I am simply making the argument that it’s time for him to be better. You are extrapolating it to a larger narrative of ‘career indictment’, because that’s what makes sense in your brain, I guess.

Expecting our QB to be better than absolutely awful is pretty standard stuff on a fan forum. Nobody is inviting you to debate it. Especially not with points that evade observation and context and immediately fall flat as juvenile dishonest debate.

Put me on ignore, if you are this shook by pragmatic points of view.

You aren’t pragmatic, you are hysterical. 

[derp]

Fix this. Or get blitzed out of the league. 

No QB is always kept clean, and a QB who plays like this under pressure won’t be able to continue to play in the league.

It seems oversimplified but I think this is what it boils down to.

I’m sure Belichick is aware of this and we’ll get a chance to see if there’s growth in this area tomorrow.

[SuicidalSince98]

1 minute ago, derp said:

Fix this. Or get blitzed out of the league. 

No QB is always kept clean, and a QB who plays like this under pressure won’t be able to continue to play in the league.

It seems oversimplified but I think this is what it boils down to.

I’m sure Belichick is aware of this and we’ll get a chance to see if there’s growth in this area tomorrow.

Is this analysis by the same PFF guy that gave quinnen a 65 rating for the packers game? 

[Integrity28]

13 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Loaded with talent.

Devoid of skill. Fortunately skill can be acquired, he just needs to speed it up.

 

15 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

You would hope. But the good news is that the raw talent is there and obvious. It’s when you’re stuck with a guy who doesn’t seem to posses any special traits that you should move in fast. It’s worth being patient with Wilson because the raw materials are great 

 

9 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

You aren’t pragmatic, you are hysterical. 

I think maybe, in your haste to come across, you’ve skipped the part where you interpret what others are saying - electing to lump them into a debate position instead, then hurling invalid talking points at them.

The posts above are not far off.

Honestly, it’s the rest of what you say. It’s stupid to support your underlying position.

 

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

I am simply making the argument that it’s time for him to be better. 

Expecting our QB to be better than absolutely awful is pretty standard stuff on a fan forum.

Nobody is inviting you to debate it.

 

[Integrity28]

2 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Is this analysis by the same PFF guy that gave quinnen a 65 rating for the packers game? 

Haha, this is what I mean… it’s a list of contextual data points. Does the author change that?

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

2 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Is this analysis by the same PFF guy that gave quinnen a 65 rating for the packers game? 

PFF sucks but completion % is facts. He’s down right horrible under pressure. He HAS to get better, cut it in half at least. 

[Sonny Werblin]

37 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

You would think the #2 overall pick would need less time but whatever. Guess as long as we get there, fine by me. 
Biggest thing is dealing with pressure and trusting himself and his team around him. Right now he doesn’t trust the OL and causing him to bail early, drop his eyes, etc. Need to see more confidence from him. 

I was at the denver game. He didn’t bail early. It was a fire drill. His biggest problem was not throwing the ball away after he escaped. Instead he kept trying to make something out of nothing risking a turnover.

[SuicidalSince98]

Just now, Zachtomims47 said:

PFF sucks but completion % is facts. He’s down right horrible under pressure. He HAS to get better, cut it in half at least. 

It’s not facts if he is escaping free rushers and throwing the ball away. 

[SuicidalSince98]

Just now, Sonny Werblin said:

I was at the denver game. He didn’t bail early. It was a fire drill. His biggest problem was not throwing the ball away after he escaped. Instead he kept trying to make something out of nothing risking a turnover.

Yet he didn’t turn it over, and hasn’t in the last 9 games. He is keeping us alive with those escapes.

[SuicidalSince98]

2 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

PFF sucks but completion % is facts. He’s down right horrible under pressure. He HAS to get better, cut it in half at least. 

They are not contextual. “pressure” is a completely arbitrary and broad definition 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

1 minute ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

It’s not facts if he is escaping free rushers and throwing the ball away. 

I mean, still a fact. It’s incomplete lol.  But either way. Sometimes he doesn’t have to bail but he does. Sometimes the slightest pressure throws off his mechanics and makes an easy throw a bad one. Things he needs to get better at. 

[FidelioJet]

He could win a Super Bowl and many would be complaining about him.  "But if we want to be a dynasty we should draft a QB this year"

People are dug in and that will never change with him.

[SuicidalSince98]

2 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

I mean, still a fact. It’s incomplete lol.  But either way. Sometimes he doesn’t have to bail but he does. Sometimes the slightest pressure throws off his mechanics and makes an easy throw a bad one. Things he needs to get better at. 

Yes but a throw away is a positive play

he completed +60% vs Denver 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

3 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

I was at the denver game. He didn’t bail early. It was a fire drill. His biggest problem was not throwing the ball away after he escaped. Instead he kept trying to make something out of nothing risking a turnover.

Denver was def a mess protection wise. But there were times he could have stood in there and made a throw. He’s gotta learn to move within the pocket better. 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

1 minute ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Yes but a throw away is a positive play

he completed +60% vs Denver 

He has flaws. It’s okay to want him to be better in certain areas lol. 

[SuicidalSince98]

2 minutes ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Denver was def a mess protection wise. But there were times he could have stood in there and made a throw. He’s gotta learn to move within the pocket better. 

No one is saying that he shouldn’t get better or that he was “good” against Denver. It’s the “he sucks does everything wrong and needs to do a 180” crowd and discredits all positives that is a clown show 

[SuicidalSince98]

1 minute ago, Zachtomims47 said:

He has flaws. It’s okay to want him to be better in certain areas lol. 

No one disagrees 

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

He could win a Super Bowl and many would be complaining about him.  "But if we want to be a dynasty we should draft a QB this year"

Do you think "he" is going to drive this team to win a Super Bowl at the level of production and play he currently provides?

Quote

People are dug in and that will never change with him.

My view of him will change if/when the quality of his play and the level of his production changes.

33rd in the NFL in Completion percentage, 30th in Passing Yards per Game, 32nd in QB Rating isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl, for a metrics standpoint, in my opinion.

The ongoing inaccuracy (high, behind) of many of his passes, the holding the ball too long, the scrambling that produces almost nothing, the missed open receivers, the many turnover-worth-plays, etc. isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl from a "eye test" standpoint, in my opinion.

So my view of him will change, when these things change.  His next opportunity is Sunday vs. New England.  Expecting better than "32nd in NFL" type production from your QB, regardless of where they are picked, is hardly being unfair.

[Stark]

22 minutes ago, derp said:

Fix this. Or get blitzed out of the league. 

No QB is always kept clean, and a QB who plays like this under pressure won’t be able to continue to play in the league.

It seems oversimplified but I think this is what it boils down to.

I’m sure Belichick is aware of this and we’ll get a chance to see if there’s growth in this area tomorrow.

And the Bills game is gonna be an all out Blitzfest. 

[Stark]

11 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Do you think "he" is going to drive this team to win a Super Bowl at the level of production and play he currently provides?

My view of him will change if/when the quality of his play and the level of his production changes.

33rd in the NFL in Completion percentage, 30th in Passing Yards per Game, 32nd in QB Rating isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl, for a metrics standpoint, in my opinion.

The ongoing inaccuracy (high, behind) of many of his passes, the holding the ball too long, the scrambling that produces almost nothing, the missed open receivers, the many turnover-worth-plays, etc. isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl from a "eye test" standpoint, in my opinion.

So my view of him will change, when these things change.  His next opportunity is Sunday vs. New England.  Expecting better than "32nd in NFL" type production from your QB, regardless of where they are picked, is hardly being unfair.

[FidelioJet]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Do you think "he" is going to drive this team to win a Super Bowl at the level of production and play he currently provides?

If you mean being undefeated this year, then absolutely.

The next time he's asked to put together a drive to win the game - and he doesn't deliver - will be the first.

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The ongoing inaccuracy (high, behind) of many of his passes, the holding the ball too long, the scrambling that produces almost nothing, the missed open receivers, the many turnover-worth-plays, etc

The bolded is literally, the ONLY problem I have with him now.  It's legitimate, real and concerning.  Could be a lot of reasons for it, but he had it last year and fixed it - so I'm holding out hope.  If he doesn't fix this, he can not be an NFL FQB.

"Turn Over worth plays" stop it - this is something created by people that are looking for reasons to hold on to a narrative they want to see....

He's not turning the ball over because they've been winning so he's not taking chances.  He's holding the ball longer than usual because they're winning and he's not taking chances.

When you have a running like the Jets have had, a defense playing at the level of the Jets right now, against QB's they've been against....The last thing you want a young QB to do is making it about him.  

I could just imagine what would happen if he threw an INT that cost them one of these games --- "Zach's playing hero ball", "Zach is selfhis",  "Zach's making it all about him"

There wouldn't be enough hate to go around.  Right now Zach is playing to win and with some Jet fans that's not enough.

So sure, he hasn't been great.  But he hasn't had to be, he's doing what it takes to win games...and he's surely played a role in making the plays that NEEEDED to be made, WHEN they're needed to be made.  The one time he was asked to "be great" he stepped up and was.

[Integrity28]

26 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

They are not contextual. “pressure” is a completely arbitrary and broad definition 

Post stats out of context.

Calls other stats non-contextual.

For your sake I hope this is intentional gaslighting and not merely a reflection of your intellect.

[derp]

38 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Is this analysis by the same PFF guy that gave quinnen a 65 rating for the packers game? 

This any better? Those are just the raw stats. Not any PFF manipulation. But nice try. 

[LSJF]

13 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Which dropbacks? The 3-step, 7-step or 30-yard headless chicken?

The ones where he’s running for his life based on pass rushers getting past our fourth string tackles… Avoids a sack and throws it out of play instead of the waiting arms of the other team

[derp]

17 minutes ago, Stark said:

And the Bills game is gonna be an all out Blitzfest. 

Bills will get pressure with four.

[SuicidalSince98]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Post stats out of context.

Calls other stats non-contextual.

For your sake I hope this is intentional gaslighting and not merely a reflection of your intellect.

Which out of context stats did I provide, and nice job not defending your point that the pff stats had context 

you are not nearly as smart as you think you are 

 

[Lurker89]

26 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

 

 

I think maybe, in your haste to come across, you’ve skipped the part where you interpret what others are saying - electing to lump them into a debate position instead, then hurling invalid talking points at them.

The posts above are not far off.

Honestly, it’s the rest of what you say. It’s stupid to support your underlying position.

 

@SuicidalSince98s short time on on this board can be summed up by making half a decent point and then showing an inability to understand what other people are saying. He then argues against points no one else is making while being completely terse and obtuse about them.

The further he devolves into being wrong the shorter his responses get.... he is basically the antithesis to @DefenseWinsChampionships85who would become long winded the more he was erroneous. 

Quite possibly his intellectual equivalent, I'd pay good money to watch those two linguists go at it. If nothing else they may be equally fun to prod.

[SuicidalSince98]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

If you mean being undefeated this year, then absolutely.

The next time he's asked to put together a drive to win the game - and he doesn't deliver - will be the first.

The bolded is literally, the ONLY problem I have with him now.  It's legitimate, real and concerning.  Could be a lot of reasons for it, but he had it last year and fixed it - so I'm holding out hope.  If he doesn't fix this, he can not be an NFL FQB.

"Turn Over worth plays" stop it - this is something created by people that are looking for reasons to hold on to a narrative they want to see....

He's not turning the ball over because they've been winning so he's not taking chances.  He's holding the ball longer than usual because they're winning and he's not taking chances.

When you have a running like the Jets have had, a defense playing at the level of the Jets right now, against QB's they've been against....The last thing you want a young QB to do is making it about him.  

I could just imagine what would happen if he threw an INT that cost them one of these games --- "Zach's playing hero ball", "Zach is selfhis",  "Zach's making it all about him"

There wouldn't be enough hate to go around.  Right now Zach is playing to win and with some Jet fans that's not enough.

So sure, he hasn't been great.  But he hasn't had to be, he's doing what it takes to win games...and he's surely played a role in making the plays that NEEEDED to be made, WHEN they're needed to be made.  The one time he was asked to "be great" he stepped up and was.

Pretty much this 

people are digging their heals after four games 

two of which were very good and showed tons of progress (pitt, mia)

two of which were against literally the two best defenses in the nfl in the toughest stadiums to play in the nfl. And the qb managed the game, didn’t turn it over, and won both

we are living in a crazy world 

[Stark]

17 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Pretty much this 

people are digging their heals after four games 

two of which were very good and showed tons of progress (pitt, mia)

two of which were against literally the two best defenses in the nfl in the toughest stadiums to play in the nfl. And the qb managed the game, didn’t turn it over, and won both

we are living in a crazy world 

2 weren't "very good" there were very good moments around lackluster performance. 

we haven't played "literally" the 2 best defenses in the league yet. Bills (#1)are next week 

 

Broncos 4th the best D we have played. 

 

yes we are winning games with a lesser Jimmy G at QB. I am, as many fans, happy we are winning and that it looks like JD can build a team/draft.

I can also be a realist and say that Zach, for the majority of his play has not shown that he is playing to the level that you, or anyone should expect from a #2 overall pick. 

 

 

[Facts]

9 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

We’d be 1-6 with Flacco 

Pretty sure Flacco could conjure up 1 total TD over 4 games (that’s what Zach has). 

[Anthony Jet]

I ask this 

He hasn’t lost so we can’t say what game did he lose for us, but what game did we win in spite of him? When I say in spite I mean over coming his bad plays, there are games we won that he really didn’t contribute much but I wouldn’t say in spite of him. 
the coaches will ask him to throw more when we are losing. Fortunately we haven’t been in that position much with him under center. 

[Anthony Jet]

1 hour ago, Integrity28 said:

No, that would have been stupid.

And correct 

[SuicidalSince98]

47 minutes ago, derp said:

This any better? Those are just the raw stats. Not any PFF manipulation. But nice try. 

So he is the best QB in the nfl from an clean pocket. That’s aweosme!!