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What Will It Take To Finally Trust Zach "The Enigma" Wilson?


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25 minutes ago, Stark said:

2 weren't "very good" there were very good moments around lackluster performance. 

we haven't played "literally" the 2 best defenses in the league yet. Bills (#1)are next week 

 

Broncos 4th the best D we have played. 

 

yes we are winning games with a lesser Jimmy G at QB. I am, as many fans, happy we are winning and that it looks like JD can build a team/draft.

I can also be a realist and say that Zach, for the majority of his play has not shown that he is playing to the level that you, or anyone should expect from a #2 overall pick. 

 

 

Zach definitely needs to play better. But being the 2nd pick in the draft shouldn’t be used against him. He didn’t draft himself. He’s here. That asset is gone. If anything that goes against the FO for taking a guy at 2 that shouldn’t have been. 

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6 minutes ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

So he is the best QB in the nfl from an clean pocket. That’s aweosme!!

It’s great, but if he doesn’t improve against pressure then teams will just blitz him.

Again, I think it’s as simple as him showing he has answers against pressure. If he does, then we can start to see more of what he’s doing in a clean pocket and I’ll be very optimistic about his prospects. If he doesn’t, I don’t think he’ll have a long career.

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Gee, tough one. If not for Josh making a big turn in year 2, or Geno in year 10, we may have already given up on The Zack.

I guess if Zack flames out in another year or two, we will all sit here and say "It was all right there in front of us the whole time, but we refused to see it".

But on the flip side, Zack HAS given us spots of greatness. Just enough to hang our hopes and dreams on. At least for another game.

2022 shaped up perfectly with a stout defense and top run game. Gave Zack a nice 'safe-place' to grow and learn slowly while the team still found ways to win. But that's gone now. While we still have a good defense, our run game will be pedestrian. Starting tomorrow at 1pm, this team will go as Zack Wilson goes.

We don't have to decide today....it will be decided for us pretty quickly.

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16 hours ago, jetswinbaby! said:

I'm trying very hard to figure Zach Wilson out...

I like him, but I have a major problem...

I still don't trust him...

I can see that he has talent...

But he has me on the edge of my seat every time he drops back with the ball...

I can't recall watching a young QB where, instead of looking for superior skill, I'm looking for good judgement...

He'll have a steady quarter or two...

Then he will follow it up with a bunch of mind-numbing, stupid plays, where I ask myself "What was he thinking?"...

Can Zach just put together 4 quarters of solid football?...

 

 

 No way would I trust Zach...

Around the wife...a girlfriend...or a Mom too.  Granny might be safe with him...but you can never know for sure.

But I do trust him to dedicate and give it his all for football. 

Manage the game.  Make some special throws with that arm talent when needed.  Don't turn it over. 

Just keep winning Zach baby. 

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

If you mean being undefeated this year, then absolutely.

The next time he's asked to put together a drive to win the game - and he doesn't deliver - will be the first.

The bolded is literally, the ONLY problem I have with him now.  It's legitimate, real and concerning.  Could be a lot of reasons for it, but he had it last year and fixed it - so I'm holding out hope.  If he doesn't fix this, he can not be an NFL FQB.

"Turn Over worth plays" stop it - this is something created by people that are looking for reasons to hold on to a narrative they want to see....

He's not turning the ball over because they've been winning so he's not taking chances.  He's holding the ball longer than usual because they're winning and he's not taking chances.

When you have a running like the Jets have had, a defense playing at the level of the Jets right now, against QB's they've been against....The last thing you want a young QB to do is making it about him.  

I could just imagine what would happen if he threw an INT that cost them one of these games --- "Zach's playing hero ball", "Zach is selfhis",  "Zach's making it all about him"

There wouldn't be enough hate to go around.  Right now Zach is playing to win and with some Jet fans that's not enough.

So sure, he hasn't been great.  But he hasn't had to be, he's doing what it takes to win games...and he's surely played a role in making the plays that NEEEDED to be made, WHEN they're needed to be made.  The one time he was asked to "be great" he stepped up and was.

There is no reasoning with this level of self-induced fantasy.  

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

If you mean being undefeated this year, then absolutely.

The next time he's asked to put together a drive to win the game - and he doesn't deliver - will be the first.

The bolded is literally, the ONLY problem I have with him now.  It's legitimate, real and concerning.  Could be a lot of reasons for it, but he had it last year and fixed it - so I'm holding out hope.  If he doesn't fix this, he can not be an NFL FQB.

"Turn Over worth plays" stop it - this is something created by people that are looking for reasons to hold on to a narrative they want to see....

He's not turning the ball over because they've been winning so he's not taking chances.  He's holding the ball longer than usual because they're winning and he's not taking chances.

When you have a running like the Jets have had, a defense playing at the level of the Jets right now, against QB's they've been against....The last thing you want a young QB to do is making it about him.  

I could just imagine what would happen if he threw an INT that cost them one of these games --- "Zach's playing hero ball", "Zach is selfhis",  "Zach's making it all about him"

There wouldn't be enough hate to go around.  Right now Zach is playing to win and with some Jet fans that's not enough.

So sure, he hasn't been great.  But he hasn't had to be, he's doing what it takes to win games...and he's surely played a role in making the plays that NEEEDED to be made, WHEN they're needed to be made.  The one time he was asked to "be great" he stepped up and was.

No issue with him being 5-31 for 0 TD's, 2 INT's, 8 sacks taken for -54 yards, and 50 yards rushing on scrambles when pressured (I think over a total of 42 pressures)?

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1 hour ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Which out of context stats did I provide, and nice job not defending your point that the pff stats had context 

you are not nearly as smart as you think you are 

 

Hahaha… The ones I quoted and called non-contextual.

The PFF stats do have context, that’s the whole point in jabbing you for saying they don’t.

I mean, we can keep doing this if you want. It’s bordering on “I’m rubber, you’re glue” from your end, but I’m game.

 

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1 hour ago, Lurker89 said:

@SuicidalSince98s short time on on this board can be summed up by making half a decent point and then showing an inability to understand what other people are saying. He then argues against points no one else is making while being completely terse and obtuse about them.

The further he devolves into being wrong the shorter his responses get.... he is basically the antithesis to @DefenseWinsChampionships85who would become long winded the more he was erroneous. 

Quite possibly his intellectual equivalent, I'd pay good money to watch those two linguists go at it. If nothing else they may be equally fun to prod.

Perfect.

 

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12 minutes ago, derp said:

No issue with him being 5-31 for 0 TD's, 2 INT's, 8 sacks taken for -54 yards, and 50 yards rushing on scrambles when pressured (I think over a total of 42 pressures)?

I'm at a loss to understand your point here..But let me try..

Your saying..Zach is bad - because...

  1. He's often under a lot of pressure
  2. Throws the ball away often when flushed out of the pocket
  3. Takes a Sack on occasion
  4. Doesn't throw INT's
  5. And has won every game..

And that's somehow supposed to say he's NOT playing well.  Very strange take and surely sounds like a reach.

If that's what you're trying to say...

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Just now, FidelioJet said:

I'm at a loss to understand your point here..But let me try..

Your saying..Zach is bad - because...

  1. He's often under a lot of pressure
  2. Throws the ball away often when flushed out of the pocket
  3. Takes a Sack on occasion
  4. Doesn't throw INT's
  5. And has won every game..

And that's somehow supposed to say he's NOT playing well.  Very strange take and surely sounds like a reach.

If that's what you're trying to say...

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19 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm at a loss to understand your point here..But let me try..

Your saying..Zach is bad - because...

  1. He's often under a lot of pressure
  2. Throws the ball away often when flushed out of the pocket
  3. Takes a Sack on occasion
  4. Doesn't throw INT's
  5. And has won every game..

And that's somehow supposed to say he's NOT playing well.  Very strange take and surely sounds like a reach.

If that's what you're trying to say...

When Zach is the reason we are losing I will begin to have a problem with him. So far he is not and I'm happy we have found ways to play mistake free football and win games.

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4 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

When Zach is the reason we are losing I will begin to have a problem with him. So far he is not and I'm happy we have found ways to play mistake free football and win games.

I'll even take it a step further.

When Zach's isn't the reason we're winning - If he's not making the plays needed to be made - when it counts - and we're losing then I'll also have a problem.

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29 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm at a loss to understand your point here..But let me try..

Your saying..Zach is bad - because...

  1. He's often under a lot of pressure
  2. Throws the ball away often when flushed out of the pocket
  3. Takes a Sack on occasion
  4. Doesn't throw INT's
  5. And has won every game..

And that's somehow supposed to say he's NOT playing well.  Very strange take and surely sounds like a reach.

If that's what you're trying to say...

I'll repeat the list: 5-31 for 0 TD's, 2 INT's, 8 sacks taken for -54 yards, and 50 yards rushing on scrambles when pressured (I think over a total of 42 pressures).

Your list of five things includes: pressure rate (not included in those numbers), frequency of throwing the ball away (not included in those numbers), taking sacks (he's a tick above average here in terms of pressure converted to sacks, but that wasn't part of the point aside from net passing yardage), not throwing interceptions (funny, I see two up there in the numbers), and wins (also not included).

So three things not included, one unnecessary interpretation, and one instance of evidently misreading. I'll let you figure out if that's what I was trying to say.

He has zero net passing yards when pressured (!) and is averaging 1.2 yards per play he's pressured. I'll save asking you whether or not that's handling pressure well to tell you - those are not the statistics of a quarterback who is handling pressure well.

We are nearing the point that NFL teams will blitz him until he's able to show answers against pressure. Right now there's effectively no downside to doing so.

 

You frankly even editorialized me saying he's bad.

You said your only concern was his accuracy. I was effectively asking if you thought the pressure numbers were good. I suppose that bad was your interpretation of those numbers? Even if you're not willing to admit it?

What I am saying is that this season he has not been able to create meaningful positive yardage when he's pressured. And I'd add that being able to do so is a necessary trait to be a successful NFL quarterback.

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5 minutes ago, derp said:

I'll repeat the list: 5-31 for 0 TD's, 2 INT's, 8 sacks taken for -54 yards, and 50 yards rushing on scrambles when pressured (I think over a total of 42 pressures).

Your list of five things includes: pressure rate (not included in those numbers), frequency of throwing the ball away (not included in those numbers), taking sacks (he's a tick above average here in terms of pressure converted to sacks, but that wasn't part of the point aside from net passing yardage), not throwing interceptions (funny, I see two up there in the numbers), and wins (also not included).

So three things not included, one unnecessary interpretation, and one instance of evidently misreading. I'll let you figure out if that's what I was trying to say.

He has zero net passing yards when pressured (!) and is averaging 1.2 yards per play he's pressured. I'll save asking you whether or not that's handling pressure well to tell you - those are not the statistics of a quarterback who is handling pressure well.

We are nearing the point that NFL teams will blitz him until he's able to show answers against pressure. Right now there's effectively no downside to doing so.

 

You frankly even editorialized me saying he's bad.

You said your only concern was his accuracy. I was effectively asking if you thought the pressure numbers were good. I suppose that bad was your interpretation of those numbers? Even if you're not willing to admit it?

What I am saying is that this season he has not been able to create meaningful positive yardage when he's pressured. And I'd add that being able to do so is a necessary trait to be a successful NFL quarterback.

This all comes down to the same argument you Zach Dug-Inner's are...

Zach is playing safe, smart football.  And every time he's been asked to step up to make a play when the game was on the line - he did so.

All last year, I heard - hero ball, just play within the offense, do what the coaching staff has asked...etc.  That was the mantra.  Zach is selfish, making it about him etc..

It's just really hard for you guys to accept he's doing everything you've asked him to do.

.......

Also, you think it's that simple - hey...QB struggles under pressure - so let's just blitz him.  Genius idea - wonder why everyone doesn't do that - great pick up there.

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Just now, FidelioJet said:

This all comes down to the same argument you Zach Dug-Inner's are...

Zach is playing safe, smart football.  And every time he's been asked to step up to make a play when the game was on the line - he did so.

All last year, I heard - hero ball, just play within the offense, do what the coaching staff has asked...etc.  That was the mantra.  Zach is selfish, making it about him etc..

It's just really hard for you guys to accept he's doing everything you've asked him to do.

.......

Also, you think it's that simple - hey...QB struggles under pressure - so let's just blitz him.  Genius idea - wonder why everyone doesn't do that - great pick up there.

I'm not a Zach Dug-Inner. If either of us is, you are. If he improves against pressure, I'll be optimistic about him. Posted that earlier in this thread. That's not a dug in take.

I've been consistent since before he was drafted. I think the ability to handle pressure is a critical trait for NFL quarterbacks. We didn't get to see him much against pressure behind BYU's line. I thought that was a risk. He's now struggling against pressure. I think that's a problem.

None of the "safe, smart football", last year's take stuff (that I didn't say anyway) matters in this conversation about how he's handling pressure this year. That's all I'm talking about. Very simple. You can try to go off to the side all you want, I'm just interested in discussing Wilson's numbers when pressured and the implications of those numbers for his career.

We'll see how Belichick decides to attack the offense tomorrow.

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2 hours ago, FootballLove said:

If not for Josh making a big turn in year 2

Allen?

Allen had 29 TD's and 9 INT’s in his second year.

Zach is on pace for - checks notes - 5 TD's and 5 INT's.

2 hours ago, FootballLove said:

or Geno in year 10, we may have already given up on The Zack.

If we have to wait 10 years for Zach to get good, I may have to quit football.

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1 hour ago, derp said:

No issue with him being 5-31 for 0 TD's, 2 INT's, 8 sacks taken for -54 yards, and 50 yards rushing on scrambles when pressured (I think over a total of 42 pressures)?

When did he "fix it" last year? This has been Wilson's issue since college, he struggles with pressure in the pocket. I don't think he can stay calm if he thinks he's going to get hit and I don't think this is something you can develop, its innate. 

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4 minutes ago, maury77 said:

When did he "fix it" last year? This has been Wilson's issue since college, he struggles with pressure in the pocket. I don't think he can stay calm if he thinks he's going to get hit and I don't think this is something you can develop, its innate. 

I would need to see a few games of Zach delviering passes accurately on a more consistent basis in the face of the rush.  Extending plays with his legs and making some throws on the run.  Throwing with touch and anticipation to "throw a reciever open."  He has avoided big mistakes over the last few weeks and he has done it well enough to allow the team to win games despite getting little in the passing game.  I would like to see him start to make plays consisstently and not just avoid the bad plays.

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2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

If you mean being undefeated this year, then absolutely.

The next time he's asked to put together a drive to win the game - and he doesn't deliver - will be the first.

The bolded is literally, the ONLY problem I have with him now.  It's legitimate, real and concerning.  Could be a lot of reasons for it, but he had it last year and fixed it - so I'm holding out hope.  If he doesn't fix this, he can not be an NFL FQB.

"Turn Over worth plays" stop it - this is something created by people that are looking for reasons to hold on to a narrative they want to see....

He's not turning the ball over because they've been winning so he's not taking chances.  He's holding the ball longer than usual because they're winning and he's not taking chances.

When you have a running like the Jets have had, a defense playing at the level of the Jets right now, against QB's they've been against....The last thing you want a young QB to do is making it about him.  

I could just imagine what would happen if he threw an INT that cost them one of these games --- "Zach's playing hero ball", "Zach is selfhis",  "Zach's making it all about him"

There wouldn't be enough hate to go around.  Right now Zach is playing to win and with some Jet fans that's not enough.

So sure, he hasn't been great.  But he hasn't had to be, he's doing what it takes to win games...and he's surely played a role in making the plays that NEEEDED to be made, WHEN they're needed to be made.  The one time he was asked to "be great" he stepped up and was.

I’ve been far from the loudest at piling on Wilson, but turnover-worthy plays aren’t nothing.

They may count for nothing in terms of not changing the score, but that is incidental. It’s relying upon the Ds against him being incompetent themselves. The reason people look at these negatives, even in the face of success while doing them, is it’s a thing is it points to what is likely to be sustainable success in the future.

One of the biggest reasons I (pretty vocally) didn’t want the team to re-sign Fitzpatrick after 2015, despite statistically having a successful season, was that in addition to the pick per game he did throw he also had another pick per game in turnover-worthy passes (which we just referred to as dropped interceptions). Sanchez had the same thing: lots of passes that were just outright dropped, but wouldn’t have required some great defensive play to pick it off. Plenty figured that luck would continue

Ignoring such plays, as though they never happened, ignores what is likely to happen in the future. Players can clean this up - particularly young players, as they settle down - but a lack of fumbles and picks doesn’t mean he didn’t make an awful throw that, but for pure unbridled luck, would and should have been turnovers.

I’d say the same for dropped passes by his own receivers, which is why I’m sure some of these advanced-metrics sites keep track of adjusted completion percentage (i.e. assuming an unrealistic 0% dropped passes, but doing so equally for all QBs).

Still, you can repeatedly hit and hard 17 and not bust a bunch of times in a row; that doesn’t therefore mean it’s rational to base future success upon continuing to do so.

Put more succinctly (which isn’t my thing): continuing to rely upon repeated luck is not a good strategy. You can’t have a QB who - even while playing conservatively - is throwing turnover-worthy passes at a rate in the 5% range (or greater) and realistically expect to keep winning the turnover battle and ballgames.

He needs to play better.

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1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

I'm at a loss to understand your point here..But let me try..

Your saying..Zach is bad - because...

  1. He's often under a lot of pressure

i.e. Holds the ball too long, doesn't see open receivers, and is forced to scramble when most  other starting QB's would have already thrown the pass.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:
  1. Throws the ball away often when flushed out of the pocket

i.e. is almost completely ineffective when scrambling.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:
  1. Takes a Sack on occasion

i.e. See point one, holds the ball too long/doesn't see open receivers.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:
  1. Doesn't throw INT's

i.e. Plays scared.  Lowest passing-game producing QB in the NFL.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:
  1. And has won every game..

i.e. The NEW YORK JETS have won every game, primarily thanks to their Defense and Rushing Offense, neither of which Zach helps with his very low passing production.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

And that's somehow supposed to say he's NOT playing well.

No, every single individual metric says he's not playing as well as the ~30 other starting NFL Quarterbacks ahead of him.

Wins is not Zach's stat.  It's the Team's stat.

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

 Very strange take and surely sounds like a reach.

If that's what you're trying to say...

Well, at least he didn't call Zach a Super Bowl ready QB today, like you do.

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2 hours ago, Anthony Jet said:

Zach definitely needs to play better. But being the 2nd pick in the draft shouldn’t be used against him. He didn’t draft himself. He’s here. That asset is gone. If anything that goes against the FO for taking a guy at 2 that shouldn’t have been. 

The problem with this is that, if Zach was a fourth round pick, he’s already on the bench and nobody would blink an eye

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23 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The problem with this is that, if Zach was a fourth round pick, he’s already on the bench and nobody would blink an eye

Nailed it.  Exactly.  Zach is only the QB today because of the investment the team made in him as a #2 overall pick.

Based on his quality of play alone, he'd have been replaced.

The team winning is not a defense of poor QB play.  Better QB play and the team still wins.

Remember, Trent Dilfer once went 7-1 and won a Super Bowl.  No one would call him a Franchise QB, no one would say Baltimore's SB win was "Dilfer's win", and he was replaced by that Super Bowl winner literally the next year.  Because bad QB-led Super Bowls are the exception, not the rule.

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12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

but turnover-worthy plays aren’t nothing.

I don't disagree, I just don't see them.  

Not nearly as many as people are making them out to be.  I can think of one that SHOULD have been a turnover.  Otherwise I saw a small handful of plays that would have required an exceptional defensive play to make an INT - but those are calculated risks you need an NFL QB to make.

Moreover, one of the two INT Zach has this year was due to a ball going through the meat oof both hands of the WR.

So Turnover Worthy plays exist...but what "worthy" means is the key question.

If you're saying Worthy means - should have been an INT had it not been for a poor defensive play - then he has maybe 1..

If you're saying Worthy means - it was possible - but would have required a special play from the defense then it might be 3

Either this way - this idea that he's thrown some immense number of Turnover Worthy plays is a false narrative.

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5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I don't disagree, I just don't see them.  

Not nearly as many as people are making them out to be.  I can think of one that SHOULD have been a turnover.

The non-call fumble returned for a TD that was called back bs Denver. 

Was that a "turnover worthy play"?  

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17 hours ago, doitny said:

that headless chicken dance needs to stop. maybe if it did more people would have  a little faith in him. also how about standing in the pocket for a second and try to make a play instead of doing the chicken run.

he could stop running backwards.

and make throws on target instead of making his WRs twisted sideways or dive to catch it. he is leaving a lot of YAC on the field.

thats all i ask. he cleans that up i would give him a 3rd year

There is rarely a pocket to stand in. 

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18 hours ago, JTJet said:

2 passing TDs a game. 

Ain't asking for much. 

While I agree, there have been some opponents where WR separation has been endemic. In those instances, protect the ball and play for field position, FG and hopefully a 62 yard TD run. With the easier schedule coming soon, I think your request is reasonable in preparation for the playoffs

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1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

The problem with this is that, if Zach was a fourth round pick, he’s already on the bench and nobody would blink an eye

Your take is a great oversimplification of a complex issue. And as such, it is mostly wrong. 

Coaches and GMs play players that give them the best opportunity to win now. Particularly, coaches and GMs that are on a hot seat to produce now, or risk losing their positions. 

What you also ignore in your great oversimplification is that coaches and GMs also make decisions based upon what they see in talent and how that talent performs in practice compared to other talent. We as fans are not privy to that. 

So Saleh (and Douglas) need to win now. It appears that they think Wilson gives them that best opportunity. And, the fact is that is proven through the course of this season.  

If the knee jerk operation was to just insert high draft because, well, they are high draft picks, you would not have the Mims situation as it is. You probably would have seen a somewhat excusing of the Moore meltdown. You would have Hall introduced as your starting RB immediately. Alas, those things were not done with seemingly high value pick players. 

You are too good of a poster (did I just say that?) to make that lazy of analysis.  

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