What Will It Take To Finally Trust Zach "The Enigma" Wilson?

[derp]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

The non-call fumble returned for a TD that was called back bs Denver. 

Was that a "turnover worthy play"?  

Anecdotal and probably because I’m used to the Jets being on the wrong end of those kinds of calls (like the Mosley pick I thought should’ve stood) but I think they’ve had a couple borderline ones go their way that easily could’ve gone the other way. Higgins near TD was another. I’m sure I’m missing some. Margins are so thin that stuff adds up.

[Scott Dierking]

11 minutes ago, derp said:

Anecdotal and probably because I’m used to the Jets being on the wrong end of those kinds of calls (like the Mosley pick I thought should’ve stood) but I think they’ve had a couple borderline ones go their way that easily could’ve gone the other way. Higgins near TD was another. I’m sure I’m missing some. Margins are so thin that stuff adds up.

We are now at the point of criticizing QBs based upon plays fans think should have been turnovers, rather than actual turnovers. 

I consider that an improvement of the position to some degree. 

[T0mShane]

30 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

So Saleh (and Douglas) need to win now

1. Imagining that Zach Wilson is great in practice when no one is around to see him is the ultimate “oh word?” observation. I’ll make this statement in response: Mike White is probably the best practice quarterback to have ever taken a practice snap. Prove me wrong.

2. The entire premise here is that the coaching staff and Douglas *have to continue starting* Zach Wilson *solely because* he was the second overall pick and not a fourth rounder. You’re reasserting the basis of my response and saying it’s “wrong” or an “oversimplification.” 
 

3. If Saleh and Douglas needed to “win now,” Zach Wilson would not be their quarterback, and Joe Flacco would not be QB2. Not a soul on Planet Earth—other than the most extreme homers—thought the Jets were capable of winning a significant number of games this year. Certainly not Vegas and certainly not any serious analyst. Did you, at any point this summer, assert that the Jets “need[ed] to win now? That’s entirely revisionist based on a pack of wins they’ve accumulated against backup QBs. 
 

4. Zach Wilson is currently one of 13 QBs with a negative EPA per dropback. EPA measures the efficiency of each play in relation to the percent chance it adds or subtracts to a team’s likelihood of scoring a TD. There are currently two quarterbacks of that 13 who are on a team with a winning records. One is Zach Wilson. The other is Joe Flacco. When you factor in completion percentage over expected, there are only two QBs with negative outcomes: Zach Wilson and Baker Mayfield. Mayfield—the former first overall pick—has already been thrown away by the team that drafted him and has been benched by the team that traded for him. Wilson—by every available metric—is an anchor around this team’s neck at this point, but we’re not allowed to talk about it because the defense is beating up on bad QBs and bad offenses. If and when that changes, the conversation will change. 
 

https://rbsdm.com/stats/stats/

[Scott Dierking]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

1. Imagining that Zach Wilson is great in practice when no one is around to see him is the ultimate “oh word?” observation. I’ll make this statement in response: Mike White is probably the best practice quarterback to have ever taken a practice snap. Prove me wrong.

2. The entire premise here is that the coaching staff and Douglas *have to continue starting* Zach Wilson *solely because* he was the second overall pick and not a fourth rounder. You’re reasserting the basis of my response and saying it’s “wrong” or an “oversimplification.” 
 

3. If Saleh and Douglas needed to “win now,” Zach Wilson would not be their quarterback, and Joe Flacco would not be QB2. Not a soul on Planet Earth—other than the most extreme homers—thought the Jets were capable of winning a significant number of games this year. Certainly not Vegas and certainly not any serious analyst. Did you, at any point this summer, assert that the Jets “need[ed] to win now? That’s entirely revisionist based on a pack of wins they’ve accumulated against backup QBs. 
 

4. Zach Wilson is currently one of 13 QBs with a negative EPA per dropback. EPA measures the efficiency of each play in relation to the percent chance it adds or subtracts to a team’s likelihood of scoring a TD. There are currently two quarterbacks of that 13 who are on a team with a winning records. One is Zach Wilson. The other is Joe Flacco. When you factor in completion percentage over expected, there are only two QBs with negative outcomes: Zach Wilson and Baker Mayfield. Mayfield—the former first overall pick—has already been thrown away by the team that drafted him and has been benched by the team that traded for him. Wilson—by every available metric—is an anchor around this team’s neck at this point, but we’re not allowed to talk about it because the defense is beating up on bad QBs and bad offenses. If and when that changes, the conversation will change. 
 

 

For a coach and GM that are on a hot seat, they are are acting nonchalant in supporting this “awful” player for just well, appearances.  

Your logic leaks like a sieve. 

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

For a coach and GM that are on a hot seat, they are are acting nonchalant in supporting this “awful” player for just well, appearances.  

Your logic leaks like a sieve. 

Saleh was off the hot seat when they got to four wins. That’s how low the bar was for him coming into this season. 

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Saleh was off the hot seat when they got to four wins. That’s how low the bar was for him coming into this season. 

Ummm, was Douglas on any hot seat? He is the one that has the direct liability for the Zach draft pick?

[FidelioJet]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

The non-call fumble returned for a TD that was called back bs Denver. 

Was that a "turnover worthy play"?  

So you’re saying an almost fumble is now a fumble? No, it wasn’t turnover worthy because he made the proper play.  He didn’t actually fumble.  
Almost fumbling isn’t turnover worthy.  
 

I like you and you often take smart positions even if I don’t agree.  Not your best work here though. 

[Fantasy Island]

Game manager

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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For managerial positions in sports, see Manager (disambiguation).

For wildlife manager, see Wildlife management.

In American football, a game manager is a quarterback who, despite pedestrian individual statistics such as passing yards and touchdowns, also maintains low numbers of mistakes, such as interceptions and fumbles. Such a quarterback is seen as a major factor in neither his team's wins nor their losses; his performance is good enough to not negatively affect the performances of other players on his team, even if he himself does not have the skills to be considered an elite player.[1][2] Game managers often benefit from strong defense and rushing offense on their teams.[3][4]

Arizona Sports said that "game manager" was "a term that often comes with negative connotations of a non-talented, play-it-safe type of quarterback".[5] The New York Times called it a "backhanded compliment".[6]

 

This is what Zach aspires to be.

[Fantasy Island]

28 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

1. Imagining that Zach Wilson is great in practice when no one is around to see him is the ultimate “oh word?” observation. I’ll make this statement in response: Mike White is probably the best practice quarterback to have ever taken a practice snap. Prove me wrong.

2. The entire premise here is that the coaching staff and Douglas *have to continue starting* Zach Wilson *solely because* he was the second overall pick and not a fourth rounder. You’re reasserting the basis of my response and saying it’s “wrong” or an “oversimplification.” 
 

3. If Saleh and Douglas needed to “win now,” Zach Wilson would not be their quarterback, and Joe Flacco would not be QB2. Not a soul on Planet Earth—other than the most extreme homers—thought the Jets were capable of winning a significant number of games this year. Certainly not Vegas and certainly not any serious analyst. Did you, at any point this summer, assert that the Jets “need[ed] to win now? That’s entirely revisionist based on a pack of wins they’ve accumulated against backup QBs. 
 

4. Zach Wilson is currently one of 13 QBs with a negative EPA per dropback. EPA measures the efficiency of each play in relation to the percent chance it adds or subtracts to a team’s likelihood of scoring a TD. There are currently two quarterbacks of that 13 who are on a team with a winning records. One is Zach Wilson. The other is Joe Flacco. When you factor in completion percentage over expected, there are only two QBs with negative outcomes: Zach Wilson and Baker Mayfield. Mayfield—the former first overall pick—has already been thrown away by the team that drafted him and has been benched by the team that traded for him. Wilson—by every available metric—is an anchor around this team’s neck at this point, but we’re not allowed to talk about it because the defense is beating up on bad QBs and bad offenses. If and when that changes, the conversation will change. 
 

https://rbsdm.com/stats/stats/

Preach.

 

[Xtina]

19 hours ago, Larz said:

He’s made progress in….

ball security 

avoiding sacks

changing or killing the play at the line

now I want to see ….,

let it go Zach ! Shoot the puck Barry !

look safeties off with his eyes 

run forward for first downs instead of in circles lol

The running in circles is just exasperating. I wish he would step into the pocket or maybe avoid a sack sideways? 

[T0mShane]

36 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Ummm, was Douglas on any hot seat? He is the one that has the direct liability for the Zach draft pick?

It won’t be Zach that potentially puts Douglas on the hot seat. It’ll be the QB he drafts to replace Zach that puts him on the hot seat.

[FidelioJet]

29 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

1. Imagining that Zach Wilson is great in practice when no one is around to see him is the ultimate “oh word?” observation. I’ll make this statement in response: Mike White is probably the best practice quarterback to have ever taken a practice snap. Prove me wrong.

2. The entire premise here is that the coaching staff and Douglas *have to continue starting* Zach Wilson *solely because* he was the second overall pick and not a fourth rounder. You’re reasserting the basis of my response and saying it’s “wrong” or an “oversimplification.” 
 

3. If Saleh and Douglas needed to “win now,” Zach Wilson would not be their quarterback, and Joe Flacco would not be QB2. Not a soul on Planet Earth—other than the most extreme homers—thought the Jets were capable of winning a significant number of games this year. Certainly not Vegas and certainly not any serious analyst. Did you, at any point this summer, assert that the Jets “need[ed] to win now? That’s entirely revisionist based on a pack of wins they’ve accumulated against backup QBs. 
 

4. Zach Wilson is currently one of 13 QBs with a negative EPA per dropback. EPA measures the efficiency of each play in relation to the percent chance it adds or subtracts to a team’s likelihood of scoring a TD. There are currently two quarterbacks of that 13 who are on a team with a winning records. One is Zach Wilson. The other is Joe Flacco. When you factor in completion percentage over expected, there are only two QBs with negative outcomes: Zach Wilson and Baker Mayfield. Mayfield—the former first overall pick—has already been thrown away by the team that drafted him and has been benched by the team that traded for him. Wilson—by every available metric—is an anchor around this team’s neck at this point, but we’re not allowed to talk about it because the defense is beating up on bad QBs and bad offenses. If and when that changes, the conversation will change. 
 

https://rbsdm.com/stats/stats/

It’s like weekly you find some random stat that no one’s ever heard of to fill in your narrative.  

[Scott Dierking]

11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It won’t be Zach that potentially puts Douglas on the hot seat. It’ll be the QB he drafts to replace Zach that puts him on the hot seat.

Wow, I have mostly been an observer on this site recently, and I have thought in casual observation that you had lost a foot off your fastball.  Now that appears to be confirmed. But you always used to have that curve which you could fool posters with. That is seemingly now gone too.   

Let’s start with your opening salvo here—Wilson would be on the bench if he were a 4th round pick. 

Tell us why, because the only I thought that would be the case, is because they (GM and by extension the coach), feel the need to “justify” a decision. I am guessing a fireable offense for getting a crucial pick wrong (your acute analysis).

Now you are telling that there is no pressure on the GM and coach to play that player, because it will be the player that they choose to replace that player with, that will then place that supposed heat?

What???

I am guessing they are just keeping Zach in, b cause they find him cute? C’mon with this Tom. You are better  

 

[FidelioJet]

19 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It won’t be Zach that potentially puts Douglas on the hot seat. It’ll be the QB he drafts to replace Zach that puts him on the hot seat.

Okay. I’m going to say this with the hope you can be serious for a minute. 
 

This is basically a win now team and replacing Zach with a rookie is highly unlikely.  
 

If, at the end of this year, this team misses the playoffs and Zach looks bad (if he’s the reason they’re losing) he’s going to have to go all in on the best vet he can find.  

Maybe he takes a flyer on a late round athlete type, but they’re going to live and die with a vet for the next three years.  

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Okay. I’m going to say this with the hope you can be serious for a minute. 
 

This is basically a win now team and replacing Zach with a rookie is highly unlikely.  
 

If, at the end of this year, this team misses the playoffs and Zach looks bad (if he’s the reason they’re losing) he’s going to have to go all in on the best vet he can find.  

Maybe he takes a flyer on a late round athlete type, but they’re going to live and die with a vet for the next three years.  

It’s among the youngest teams in the league. No one should see this team as “win now.”

[T0mShane]

18 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

It’s like weekly you find some random stat that no one’s ever heard of to fill in your narrative.  

I mean, is there a stat that says Zach is playing well?

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Let’s start with your opening salvo here—Wilson would be on the bench if he were a 4th round pick. 

Tell us why,

I told you why, but you opted to ignore that and jump into “Tom stinks, am I right guys?” ad hominem attacks. You used to be better at this, too.

[Scott Dierking]

2 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s among the youngest teams in the league. No one should see this team as “win now.”

Your potential is going to get me fired. 

[FidelioJet]

Just now, T0mShane said:

It’s among the youngest teams in the league. No one should see this team as “win now.”

There’s big money that will needed to be handed out in three years.   You can’t wait two more years for another QB to develop.    You go the vet route and draft a later pick to develop.   

[T0mShane]

Just now, FidelioJet said:

There’s big money that will needed to be handed out in three years.   You can’t wait two more years for another QB to develop.    You go the vet route and draft a later pick to develop.   

Yes, I would absolutely think they’d get a better vet in here as an insurance policy. Zach is going to play until it becomes impossible to put him out there, but they need another option in the event he doesn’t drastically improve over the next two months

[derp]

1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

We are now at the point of criticizing QBs based upon plays fans think should have been turnovers, rather than actual turnovers. 

I consider that an improvement of the position to some degree. 

I was purely commenting on the refs and the Jets’ history on 50/50 calls under review there, my criticisms have been about his play under pressure.

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, T0mShane said:

I told you why, but you opted to ignore that and jump into “Tom stinks, am I right guys?” ad hominem attacks. You used to be better at this, too.

So sensitive these days when backed in a corner. Young Tom had escape ability.  Old Tom bares claws. 

[FidelioJet]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I mean, is there a stat that says Zach is playing well?

4-0

[FidelioJet]

8 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Yes, I would absolutely think they’d get a better vet in here as an insurance policy. Zach is going to play until it becomes impossible to put him out there, but they need another option in the event he doesn’t drastically improve over the next two months

If this team goes 3-7 down the stretch (8 and 9) and miss the playoffs with Zach averaging under 200 yards (over these final 10 games) they’re bringing in a vet to start.  

[Joe W. Namath]

Zach will now being getting yanked for Strev plays.  Heading in the wrong direction boys.

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, Joe W. Namath said:

Zach will now being getting yanked for Strev plays.  Heading in the wrong direction boys.

No, more Stre is supplementing the run offense with a different approach. He is filling a small hole that is still gaping in losing Hall. 

[derp]

16 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

There’s big money that will needed to be handed out in three years.   You can’t wait two more years for another QB to develop.    You go the vet route and draft a later pick to develop.   

If there’s big money that needs to be handed out wouldn’t you want a guy on a rookie deal?

This team is good and quarterbacks (Wentz, Goff) have put up their best numbers on rookie deals when they’ve got good teams around them.

If Wilson isn’t the guy, the choice is roll the dice on a young guy and see if he can be productive on a rookie deal or bring in a veteran and trim the roster elsewhere.

Dice roll with a pick gives you more short term and long term upside IMO. More margin for error with QB play if the team is better, see if the guy is productive or can be a franchise guy. Kind of like why they went Wilson over Darnold only the team wasn’t built to support a young QB at that time.

Veteran route kind of gets you to like the Vikings with Cousins territory where the team’s got a higher floor and a lower ceiling. Or the Colts where you’re just constantly shuffling at QB but then the good young position get paid and your window closes. Guess it’s good if the goal is to compete for the playoffs for a few years but you remove the chance of having a good player on a cheap deal and of having a long term franchise QB.

I think with the right QB play and this roster the team is a legitimate Super Bowl contender in 2023 and 2024. Hopefully they give Wilson easy answers against pressure and he cleans that up. If not I think another draft pick is the move. At least it is if the goal is loftier than second place in the AFC East and wild card exits.

[Joe W. Namath]

9 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

No, more Stre is supplementing the run offense with a different approach. He is filling a small hole that is still gaping in losing Hall. 

The Jets have a few capable rbs even without hall.  Now you can make all the excuses you want as to why Steveler is active, but its directly related to Zach's poor play.  If Zach was playing lights out, Stev is not active Sunday.  Its that simple.

[Scott Dierking]

Just now, Joe W. Namath said:

The Jets have a few capable rbs even without hall.  Now you can make all the excuses you want as to why Steveler is active, but its directly related to Zach's poor play.  If Zach was playing lights out, Stev is not active Sunday.  Its that simple.

Strev in a wildcat formation allows them to have an extra blocker in a run game situation. That is all. And, it’s gives a defensive coordinator more to game plan  for. 

[ultraJETfan]

1 hour ago, FidelioJet said:

So you’re saying an almost fumble is now a fumble? No, it wasn’t turnover worthy because he made the proper play.  He didn’t actually fumble.  
Almost fumbling isn’t turnover worthy.  
 

I like you and you often take smart positions even if I don’t agree.  Not your best work here though. 

Tbf he got lucky to be called down by contact which saved him from a buttfumble level type of play. If he was touched it was by a cunthair. 

He also got saved on the Berrios PI where he threw a horrible pass right into a DBs hands. 

It's getting harder and harder to defend the kid. Feels like the leash is getting shorter and shorter. Lafleur's offense isn't blame free either. I watched the All-22 of last game and some of the playcalls were really bad. O-line is back to being in shambles as well.

[FidelioJet]

53 minutes ago, derp said:

If there’s big money that needs to be handed out wouldn’t you want a guy on a rookie deal?

This team is good and quarterbacks (Wentz, Goff) have put up their best numbers on rookie deals when they’ve got good teams around them.

If Wilson isn’t the guy, the choice is roll the dice on a young guy and see if he can be productive on a rookie deal or bring in a veteran and trim the roster elsewhere.

Dice roll with a pick gives you more short term and long term upside IMO. More margin for error with QB play if the team is better, see if the guy is productive or can be a franchise guy. Kind of like why they went Wilson over Darnold only the team wasn’t built to support a young QB at that time.

Veteran route kind of gets you to like the Vikings with Cousins territory where the team’s got a higher floor and a lower ceiling. Or the Colts where you’re just constantly shuffling at QB but then the good young position get paid and your window closes. Guess it’s good if the goal is to compete for the playoffs for a few years but you remove the chance of having a good player on a cheap deal and of having a long term franchise QB.

I think with the right QB play and this roster the team is a legitimate Super Bowl contender in 2023 and 2024. Hopefully they give Wilson easy answers against pressure and he cleans that up. If not I think another draft pick is the move. At least it is if the goal is loftier than second place in the AFC East and wild card exits.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  There's simply too much risk that will come from drafting a rookie.  Using Wentz and Goff has an example isn't exactly a winning argument.

 

[derp]

6 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  There's simply too much risk that will come from drafting a rookie.  Using Wentz and Goff has an example isn't exactly a winning argument.

 

My point isn’t that a rookie lacks risk, it’s that a veteran lacks Super Bowl upside.

Goff and Wentz were included to make the increased margin of error with a QB on a rookie deal point. Both ended up as busts, but their teams made a Super Bowl and won a Super Bowl respectively when they were on rookie deals. 

If those are your issues with the perspective I’m not entirely sure you got the post.

Put differently, Super Bowl winning QB’s have been Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Manning, Stafford, Brees, and/or team with guys on rookie deals. I think the last 20 Super Bowls. If the veteran might fall into that elite category, sure the veteran. Mid level guys, I’d pass. 

[jetswinbaby!]

Sometimes, I think he thinks too much...

Sometimes, I think he doesn't think enough...

 

[FidelioJet]

12 minutes ago, ultraJETfan said:

Tbf he got lucky to be called down by contact which saved him from a buttfumble level type of play. If he was touched it was by a cunthair. 

He also got saved on the Berrios PI where he threw a horrible pass right into a DBs hands. 

These are both very wrong..

First and the less egregious - you don't penalize for NOT fumbling.  That's just downright silly.  Do you take away TD's - because he was almost out of bounds? "The WR scored a TD but we should't count it because he barely got his second foot in". It's not turnover worthy if he didn't actually make a play that was turned over.  Zach is NOT a fumbler, never has been.  It's one thing to say the DB dropped a ball that should have been an INT completely another to say he almost fumbled.  Again, just silly and a massive reach...

Second and just VERY, VERY wrong.  It was actually a very GOOD throw.  He did exactly what he was trying to do.  He did exactly what the Dug-inners have been screaming for him to do.  He threws a ball with anticipation...the play was for BB to get to the defender and turn in - Zach threw the ball as he was about to make his cut.  BB was illegally HELD at the point of contact, therefor preventing from making the cut and being where the ball was thrown.  Had he NOT been ILLEGALLY held it's a completion.   That's why they have penalties, because they illegally effect the outcome of the plays.  You don't get to say - well had the penalty not been called it would have been bad...Because it was bad ONLY because the penalty happened.

We should call that a 20 yard worthy play instead....I'm going to start a list of big yardage worthy plays, since we're playing this game.  

I guess all the TD's that were stopped on the 1 should be TD worthy plays?

 

[FidelioJet]

10 minutes ago, derp said:

My point isn’t that a rookie lacks risk, it’s that a veteran lacks Super Bowl upside.

Goff and Wentz were included to make the increased margin of error with a QB on a rookie deal point. Both ended up as busts, but their teams made a Super Bowl and won a Super Bowl respectively when they were on rookie deals. 

If those are your issues with the perspective I’m not entirely sure you got the post.

Put differently, Super Bowl winning QB’s have been Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Manning, Stafford, Brees, and/or team with guys on rookie deals. I think the last 20 Super Bowls. If the veteran might fall into that elite category, sure the veteran. Mid level guys, I’d pass. 

So...

Brady, Manning, Stafford and Brees - all won Super Bowls on their second team - and Wetz wasn't the QB when they won - it was Foles a journeyman vet.

Not sure I understand your point.