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QB Opinions on Zach


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14 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

2. Wow, the dude who couldn’t earn a Captaincy at BYU and who grew up in a tiny Utah suburb might not be a fit in New York, playing for a moribund franchise that chews up QBs? Where did we hear that before?

Yeah i have some friends from suburbian Utah who have described their experience.. the elitist, entitled culture over there is very much a thing.

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On 10/31/2022 at 1:11 PM, SuicidalSince98 said:

Charles Davis is clueless, have you ever held a football in your life? 

Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. 

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Regarding Zach on the first play of the game, since that thread was deleted.  I posted it on Reddit, so I'll copy and paste:

I’m going to both agree and disagree here.

The issue here is the defensive shell. Pre-snap, knowing the routes, pick routes will be open. You would most likely pick the two outside slant routes. But they both trap routes unless you are Brady/Rodgers level good at throwing it at the stem. The slot corner up top and Judon down bottom are sitting to jump that route. This is a half field read, pre-snap you have to decide which side you are targeting because all routes stem nearly at the same time. So you pick a side and read it.

The other aspect to see is the motion, and how the defense fools Zach. The TE goes in motion, and gets handed off (guy doesn’t run across, thus not man cover) but notice the safety coming down. The safety is over the linebacker that is covering the TE, which usually means the LB is coming, and the safety is closer to the line to provide coverage on the TE.

That is Wilson’s pre-snap read. Wilson throws it quick because there’s no one to block that linebacker. He expects a free runner since the RB releases. Once the safety retreats, Judon can jump the Garret Wilson route. Zach panics on the possible free runner, and tries to make the quick outlet pass, not realizing the rusher dropped back.

This goes back to one of my issues in my pre-draft scouting of Wilson, he relies too much on eye manipulation against weak college competition. He needed to glance at the safety to confirm, and then go through his reads. Instead, he’s trying to hold the safety under the assumption that the outside corner is playing off, the edge linebacker is rushing, and Judon is focused on the GW slant. He’s setting everything up for the outlet pass to be in free space. The throw is inaccurate because he’s shocked to see a defender there.

So far I agree, this is a lazy read by Wilson. He sticks too long on safety, and his options are all dangerous.

Disagree:

His throw shouldn’t be to Wilson, it’s to step up in the pocket. If he moves up in the pocket with the threat of run, the middle LB has to pick from covering TE or protecting against the QB scramble. This allows time for others to get open as well further down the field because it’s a one safety look eventually.

What Bellichek did was take away any short range passes, at the risk of an extended play leaving them vulnerable.

This is what Allen/Mahomes and to an extent Fields figured out already. Don’t operate in the box of having to throw exclusively at the top of your drop. If you can threaten run or step up, that defense will break down. Then they have to hedge their bets, and it becomes easier.

Their defense is excellent at pre-snap shells showing one defense, and then changing it post snap. If Wilson steps up here, the entire defense will fall apart as they could have potentially three receivers vs. two safeties. Instead, Wilson had predetermined the throw assuming the edge LB was coming, when he should have seen it beforehand.

I agree, bad read and bad decision. I disagree in that Wilson throwing to GW was the right call, rather than stepping up and extending the play for breakdowns.

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“Almost everything can be fixed,” Dilfer said. “The biggest lie is that the NFL is not a developmental league. Yes, it is. It is an absolute developmental league. In the NFL you develop your roster. You draft it and then you develop it. He needs to buy into it. He needs to buy into that ‘I’m not a finished product.’ In fact, he’s not even close to where he needs to be. He needs to listen to the smart people around him and do what they tell him to do.”
That part does concern Dilfer.
“It has some feeling of Ryan Leaf,” Dilfer said. “I’m not saying it is, but that was another red flag when he came out. Is he coachable? I think Daniel is the right guy in New York because he fits New York. I don’t know if Zach fits New York.”



I don’t think Zach is the answer, but that being said I’ve never seen so many fans, media, and analysts turn on someone so fast lately like they do with Jets QBs. It’s amazing. I think the only way we win is if we trade for a finished product. There is no way anyone can develop in this sh*tstorm. It’s almost like the wait for this kind of sh*t to happen and then tee off when it does:

Pennington 4 years
Sanchez 4 years
Geno 2 years
Darnold 2 years
Wilson 1 year

Now is the time to trade for a proven QB. The next drafted one will not get a full season if the trend continues.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app
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19 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

The frustrating thing is that it’s all mental. He has tons of ability that pop when you watch him. The highs are there. It’s the mental errors.

This is a bad play. Worse for me are the hero throws.

Not all of it.

Trashy, inconsistent mechanics, backfoot mania, etc. isn't purely mental.  Peyton Manning would continually drill his footwork and pocket movement, whether in season or off season. 

It doesn't just happen on Sundays by flipping some kind of mental switch.

If you're saying Wilson doesn't have any physical limitations, yeah, I guess.

But neither did JaMarcus Russell.  There have been a ton of physically gifted QBs who failed for one reason or another.

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3 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

It’s not even mental errors. It appears hes innately wired to panic when he senses pressure. This was never flagged in the draft process because he never saw pressure at BYU. 

Wilson’s innate, and preferred, response to pressure is to run backwards to give himself time to scramble with the expectation of hurling it downfield for a large gain.  He admitted he hates throwing the ball away, claiming it’s boring.  I also imagine he thinks that when there’s a heavy rush, throwing a 3 or 4 yard completion is also boring.  He’s still relying on his physical talents to play, rather than working the system.  He tolerated it when they were winning, but now you see how he thinks when they’re losing - he abandons the system and reverts back to the high risk high reward play he prefers.  I do think a lot of it is conscious, that this is what he wants to do rather than someone like darnold who couldn’t read anything.  Wilson needs to figure out how important it is to play his way, if it’s worth losing some games and losing the faith in his coaching staff.  

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15 minutes ago, Averagejetsfan1421 said:

This guy gets credit for his film reviews but was also the same guy who didn’t know where the back of his end zone was and went 0-7 as lions qb, give me a break 

i don't know so many of these talking heads just talk to hear themselves talk.  they say things to get attention so their ratings increase.  i think orlovsky might be right in this case in spite of his issues as a qb.  funny how joe namath used to talk up this team even when they were horrible.

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27 minutes ago, undertow said:

Yeah I agree but was Wilson's tape really worthy of being the 2nd overall pick?  Or was he a guy who should have been taken later and sat on the bench for two or three years?

Not at all. I laughed at the notion of putting Wilson in the top 10 of the NFL draft up until about Feb when i realized - Jesus christ, am i really going to have to watch the Jets pass on Fields for this sham? Regardless if Fields becomes an All-Pro -- I believed in his development, his arc. 

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46 minutes ago, kevinc855 said:

its brutal sitting in the 300s because you see all the open guys that you couch potato tv viewers dont see....

There are people wide open, running lanes open, then he goes where I least expect

This is a great point which would only add to my frustrations, can you imagine how the WR’s and coaching staff feel. It would be even worse if the owner is saying no matter what we stick with Wilson. JetBlue connect.

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17 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

Not all of it.

Trashy, inconsistent mechanics, backfoot mania, etc. isn't purely mental.  Peyton Manning would continually drill his footwork and pocket movement, whether in season or off season. 

It doesn't just happen on Sundays by flipping some kind of mental switch.

If you're saying Wilson doesn't have any physical limitations, yeah, I guess.

But neither did JaMarcus Russell.  There have been a ton of physically gifted QBs who failed for one reason or another.

That’s more my point, there’s hardly anything he can't do physically as a QB. His issues are that he panics, cant read the defense and is lazy/cocky.

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24 minutes ago, win4ever said:

it’s to step up in the pocket. If he moves up in the pocket with the threat of run, the middle LB has to pick from covering TE or protecting against the QB scramble.

the problem is he never does run forward. sooner or later defenses wont even consider a run from Zach. at least not up the middle.

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How much does Wilson improve if he learns one thing? I think it  could change his game by leaps and bounds. That one thing is to consistently step forward in the pocket. He did this in the 4th quarter vs the Steelers, but since then has gone into full blown retreat whirling dervish mode when he "feels" pressure. If he steps forward, his eyes remain downfield while he buys a beat or two of more time, any sack will be for less yards, and if the D is in man coverage if he moves ahead of the pressure he can run for some easy yards. The Jets staff needs to to something to make stepping forward in the pocket almost like an involuntary response. 

I know Wilson wants the glory of being a big time QB, He will only find that glory when he steps forward in the pocket on a continuous basis. I'd love to see Saleh rip him a new one on the sideline the next time he runs backwards from pressure.

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14 minutes ago, Bronx said:

 

last year doesnt count. or at least that what i hear from Zach Nation. new weapons , new team, blah, blah, blah.

seriously maybe White improved from last year. i have no problem given him a game to see if Zach continues to play bad. and a benching for a game or 2 might help Zach. this isnt BYU you dont own the QB job. for once let him have the fear of losing it.

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35 minutes ago, Bronx said:

 

It's not as much about White being good, as it is about Zach Wilson currently being really bad, and needing a break. Mike White just happens to be the next man up. That's not because of fans who mistakenly think he's really good, that's by design of JD and the team.

If the Jets don't have a QB that is competent enough to spell Zach for a few -- or more -- games, then that's a huge indictment on JD.

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At least we can hang our hat on the fact that that whole draft class stinks QB wise.  Unlike watching guys like mahommes, watson and Allen whom we could have had.

This class makes no difference, all of these guys would stink with the Jets.  One difference with the Jets now is they are building a good team across the board and can move on from a QB with out essentially starting over.

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37 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

How much does Wilson improve if he learns one thing? I think it  could change his game by leaps and bounds. That one thing is to consistently step forward in the pocket. He did this in the 4th quarter vs the Steelers, but since then has gone into full blown retreat whirling dervish mode when he "feels" pressure. If he steps forward, his eyes remain downfield while he buys a beat or two of more time, any sack will be for less yards, and if the D is in man coverage if he moves ahead of the pressure he can run for some easy yards. The Jets staff needs to to something to make stepping forward in the pocket almost like an involuntary response. 

I know Wilson wants the glory of being a big time QB, He will only find that glory when he steps forward in the pocket on a continuous basis. I'd love to see Saleh rip him a new one on the sideline the next time he runs backwards from pressure.

it's crazy the CS didn't immediately intervene and stop this. Like in-game. QB can not play the position like that. That move is great -- but should be used like a few times a season, not a few times a game. 

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54 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Wilson’s innate, and preferred, response to pressure is to run backwards to give himself time to scramble with the expectation of hurling it downfield for a large gain.  He admitted he hates throwing the ball away, claiming it’s boring.  I also imagine he thinks that when there’s a heavy rush, throwing a 3 or 4 yard completion is also boring.  He’s still relying on his physical talents to play, rather than working the system.  He tolerated it when they were winning, but now you see how he thinks when they’re losing - he abandons the system and reverts back to the high risk high reward play he prefers.  I do think a lot of it is conscious, that this is what he wants to do rather than someone like darnold who couldn’t read anything.  Wilson needs to figure out how important it is to play his way, if it’s worth losing some games and losing the faith in his coaching staff.  

This is the issue with drafting quarterbacks who still have to learn how to play quarterback lol. If there were ever a minor league, he’d be the perfect candidate.

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1 hour ago, dbatesman said:

Way back when, @bitonti made the point that BYU guys go do LDS missions in the middle of their undergrad career, so Wilson's OL basically consisted of a bunch of 24 year old men pushing around 19 year old kids. I believe I mocked him for it, and I publicly apologize

in fairness to you, that was the Brady Christensen year 

he was a legit prospect and not 25 years old 

but the rest of the line, every other year - yeah basically it was true  

there's this sensitivity like you can't mention people's cultures anymore 

don't shoot the messenger I didn't make these young men go to New Zealand for 2 years in the middle of their CFB career  

if it was up to me they'd do 3 weeks in Atlantic City 

that will grow anyone up fast 

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3 hours ago, Paradis said:

Basically Zach Wilson does nothing with his brain after the ball is snapped. He's not seeing the field, he's not processing the defense, no anticipation (which is funny that he was lauded to have a super computer between the ears)... which just goes to show you that a player can understand all the concepts/schemes/ideology -- but that doesn't at all mean that it happens instinctually in real time.

Players are wide open WEEKLY - waving their hands. This is happening mid-way through year two and he is nowhere close to hurdling this mental milestone

RIP

is there a clip of all the wide open WR he's missing that are waving their hands.  i recall Mims was free on one play streaking down the field.

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13 minutes ago, batman10023 said:

is there a clip of all the wide open WR he's missing that are waving their hands.  i recall Mims was free on one play streaking down the field.

yes, its called the All-22 for the New York jets. Have a look.

Its not like once here and once there -- it's happening routinely. I know you're trying to be this reasonable steadfast guy and push back on hyperbole -- and good for you on that crusade. This is what it is though, and its why we shouldn't be anointing anyone as a "good" until they prove it. Zach's coronation happened 2 mins after he was drafted. 

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2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

How much does Wilson improve if he learns one thing? I think it  could change his game by leaps and bounds. That one thing is to consistently step forward in the pocket. He did this in the 4th quarter vs the Steelers, but since then has gone into full blown retreat whirling dervish mode when he "feels" pressure. If he steps forward, his eyes remain downfield while he buys a beat or two of more time, any sack will be for less yards, and if the D is in man coverage if he moves ahead of the pressure he can run for some easy yards. The Jets staff needs to to something to make stepping forward in the pocket almost like an involuntary response. 

I know Wilson wants the glory of being a big time QB, He will only find that glory when he steps forward in the pocket on a continuous basis. I'd love to see Saleh rip him a new one on the sideline the next time he runs backwards from pressure.

I’m astounding the position coach and/or the OC hasn’t corrected this.

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