Convince me

[jNYC1]

Have him grow a pair...

He's scared of getting hit. 

[derp]

33 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

He seems to have very poor instincts for the position, does not know where the rush is coming from, and doesn’t understand, on a conceptual level, what he’s trying to accomplish when he starts to roll out. The QBs who are good at it have a natural understanding of how the defense will react when they leave the pocket, but with Zach Wilson there’s none of that—it’s running around for the sake of running around, not to create opportunities for himself or his receivers. I don’t think you can really fix that because you can’t practice it. It’s very much an instinct. 

I’m curious if anyone can present an argument that there’s really anything else for us to talk about regarding Zach Wilson and his future as an NFL quarterback. I realize it’s a pretty black and white take, but the numbers paint a black and white picture.

I tend to agree with your perspective regarding how guys handle pressure - it’s like a NFL quarterbacking version of nature versus nurture. But I’d be ecstatic if Wilson can become Aaron Rodgers or something and I’m open to the idea that I’m wrong about how intrinsic ability to handle pressure is, so it’d be cool if there were some good ideas.

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 hour ago, derp said:

Zach Wilson's struggles this season boil down to anything other than this.

When Clean:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

When Pressured:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT (Cimini's article today has it at 6/41 with one of the picks coming clean which would change the above numbers too, but we'll leave the better stats in for now)

Bonus: tell me how it gets fixed.

Note: before anyone says all quarterbacks struggle against pressure, know those are the worst numbers against pressure in the league (and by a pretty wide margin).

I don't think those labels are accurate.  To me, it says:

first read open:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

first read not open:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT

 

Zach creates his own pressure sometimes by bailing after the first read. 

He's got to grow some stones and stay put.  Then when he decides to run... RUN!  Don't spin around looking for a play.  Just freaking run and get the first down. 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

1 hour ago, derp said:

Zach Wilson's struggles this season boil down to anything other than this.

When Clean:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

When Pressured:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT (Cimini's article today has it at 6/41 with one of the picks coming clean which would change the above numbers too, but we'll leave the better stats in for now)

Bonus: tell me how it gets fixed.

Note: before anyone says all quarterbacks struggle against pressure, know those are the worst numbers against pressure in the league (and by a pretty wide margin).

IDK man

I mean how they are delineating “clean” vs “unclean” pockets

All I know is what my eyes tell me and that when you add it all up, ZW is among the worst starting QBs in the NFL by any metric

[Jimmy 2 Times]

1 minute ago, Jimmy 2 Times said:

I don't think those labels are accurate.  To me, it says:

first read open:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

first read not open:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT

 

Zach creates his own pressure sometimes by bailing after the first read. 

He's got to grow some stones and stay put.  Then when he decides to run... RUN!  Don't spin around looking for a play.  Just freaking run and get the first down. 

I don't care if he has to bail after the first read, just run forward and get some yards.  Make them honor your legs.  

[Ben Had]

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

 MILF hunter than a QB 

What is a MILF hunter?

[AFJF]

27 minutes ago, derp said:

Given I found two different (but very similar) sets of numbers I think you have to acknowledge that there’s a degree of subjectivity but it’s possible to discuss the idea within the conceptual paradigm of excellent when kept clean, worst in the league when pressured.

Right.  And then consider how often teams will allow a clean pocket in a big spot if they know Zach is a 20% passer under pressure.  I'd imagine plenty of blitzing until he fixes it.

 

[GKnight83]

1. step up in pocket.
2. set feet when throws.

I agree but there needs to be…

0. Read the Fresno defense correctly.

A few times I have seen him missing an unguarded defenseman get a direct path to him. He needs to recognize this a change the call or blocking priorities.



Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[GreenFish]

Went on the hunt for early Zach Wilson film to prove this tornado spin move is a part of him. And I discovered the oppositie. For your entertainment purposes, here’s High School Zach stepping up in the pocket. I only saw two loco spin moves.

Plan B: Hire his HS Coach

Proof that Zach knows how to run forward. He can do it y’all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qMHOw8ttjxo

[carlito1171]

Climb the pocket, keep your eyes down the field, throw a strike or bail and get positive yards.....that’s the only way Zach will fix it. No one has a clean pocket on every single drop back. He keeps his eyes on the rush which makes him panic and revert to spinning out of the pocket and forcing magic. That works in the mountain west but not against grown men in the NFL. Look at how someone like Burrow can stand in the pocket and deliver strikes playing behind an OL that can’t protect him....

[AZSOJ]

1 hour ago, Vader said:

1. step up in pocket.

2. set feet when throws.

 

yea but like SAM, slow to recognize things pre-snap and even when snap, still only see 1/2 field.  Can't fix mental acuity. 

[carlito1171]

1 hour ago, JiFapono said:

So, if I were Lil Mikey, I'd dial up the RPO game big time.  He actually excels when they do run RPO they just rarely run it.  I'd pretty much start catering the entire offense to the RPO game so that you eliminate his passion for fading/bailing the pocket, this will force him to stay in there and get at least his first read while he decides to hand off or throw

This would help tremendously as well. And more uptempo earlier in the game. Also throwing for chunk plays on 1st or 2nd down would help. Everything is always short of the sticks. This would help us stay out of 3rd and long when the defense is pinning its ears back

[All Gas, No Gase]

I just watched the All 22. Here are several of my Zach observations:

1. I wonder if Zach has some concentration issues. There are sequences of plays were he is decisive and accurate even when facing pressure. He commands the offense and is hard to stop. We saw that in the 4th Q of the Pittsburgh game. It happened in the NE game as well. We are well aware of the stretches when he plays like crap and plays tentative, yet sometimes he looks elite. 
    
2. It been mentioned many times before, he never steps up in the pocket. There were plays if he stepped up instead of running sideways he could have found a receiver breaking open. Usually when he runs sideways he can’t throw even if he sees an open receiver because he can’t put anything on the ball, and he often can’t look downfield because he is too close to defensive players. If I were his coach, I would threaten to yank him from the game until he starts stepping up in the pocket. If he did, I believe his game would improve dramatically. 
    
3. This was noticeable in the Denver game as well, he is not willing to take the hit to get the ball out to an open receiver. On his interception he was trying to throw away, if he looked downfield instead of on Judon, he would have seen GW wide open for a chunk play. GW was visually upset at the end of the play.
4. Zach needs to stop going for the splash play. The worse two examples were his 3rd interception and his 4th down incompletion to Conklin in the end zone. That would have been an amazing play if he completed it; however, Zach could have easily scrambled for at least 5 yards to ensure the first down. 
    
5. And, he continues to throw off his back foot way too often. Sometimes it looks as if he’s playing for style points instead of making sure the pass is complete. 

[hawk]

1 hour ago, derp said:

Zach Wilson's struggles this season boil down to anything other than this.

When Clean:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

When Pressured:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT (Cimini's article today has it at 6/41 with one of the picks coming clean which would change the above numbers too, but we'll leave the better stats in for now)

Bonus: tell me how it gets fixed.

Note: before anyone says all quarterbacks struggle against pressure, know those are the worst numbers against pressure in the league (and by a pretty wide margin).

Perhaps, but know one has a better pirouette.

[GangGreened]

So the banging MILFs in the offseason has not translated to the football field?

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, Green Truth said:

He also creates his own pressure, because if the first read is not there, he can't get to the next reads, causing him to hold the ball too long and having to bail.

This is lazy hyperbole constantly fed by the trolls. They  find all 22 film where he doesn't get to an open wr , w/o knowing the context of the playcall or route trees. Newsflash - breakdown all 22 film for ANY qb and you'll find similar examples. 

[CanadienJetsFan]

2 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Ive heard by many, many experts that if a QB is not great from day 1, there is no hope of ever improving, like ever. So sounds like nothing can be done, so you are better off posing about 4,346 posts per day about how bad ZW sucks, will always suck, and is better off being a MILF hunter than a QB and how he is single handedly stopping us from winning a SB this year. It will get you a ton of those bad ass thumbs uppers

Well said good Sir.

[Green Truth]

5 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

This is lazy hyperbole constantly fed by the trolls. They  find all 22 film where he doesn't get to an open wr , w/o knowing the context of the playcall or route trees. Newsflash - breakdown all 22 film for ANY qb and you'll find similar examples. 

No need to watch the all 22 to see the trash, stare down first read, never looks anywhere else, next thing you know running for his life.

[T0mShane]

1 hour ago, derp said:

I’m curious if anyone can present an argument that there’s really anything else for us to talk about regarding Zach Wilson and his future as an NFL quarterback. I realize it’s a pretty black and white take, but the numbers paint a black and white picture.

I tend to agree with your perspective regarding how guys handle pressure - it’s like a NFL quarterbacking version of nature versus nurture. But I’d be ecstatic if Wilson can become Aaron Rodgers or something and I’m open to the idea that I’m wrong about how intrinsic ability to handle pressure is, so it’d be cool if there were some good ideas.

Not that I’m inclined to stan for Zach Wilson, and though I hate the Josh Allen comparisons, Allen did go from being awful vs pressure to being the best QB at handling pressure. 
 

2018–36th ranked QB under pressure, 47.4 QB Rating

2019–23rd; 61.4

2020–8th; 80.9

2021–5th; 80.5

2022–1st; 107.7

Caveats include his statistical spike when he got Stefon Diggs in 2020. The real improvement was his time to throw (when pressured) dropping from 4.02 in 2018 to 3.52 this year.

 

[JetPotato]

Both sets of stats reveal one single truth about Zach Wilson: he holds the ball far too long.

Sometimes, when you hold the ball a long time, at least one receiver is going to find a good spot in the defense and the throw is going to be relatively easy (if he even sees it). This equates to big numbers, like the type you see from star QBs for the entirety of games, not just quarters.

Sometimes, when you wait too long, you get in trouble and you try to do too much and you fail miserably, because this is the NFL and you are not Patrick Mahomes.

Zach is not progressing through his reads quickly enough and he is not decisive. This is one of the hardest parts of quarterbacking to learn, in part because a good fraction of that is football instinct. He does not appear to possess that. He can improve on his read speed through hard work, lots of reps, and quicker drops (less shotgun please). But there appears to be a limit. 

Sadly, I have seen very little improvement from Zach in 18 games so far in speeding things up. At this point in time, all signs point to him failing. Call it early, but I see a guy with happy feet, and I don't know how few guys have ever fixed that, ever. I keep hoping we'll see the boy that he is step up into the pocket, load, and throw in the face of pressure to show us he's grown up, but I'm still waiting and starting to never expect it. I've seen this already, so I know what it looks like.

[Untouchable]

If you’re going to totally sh*t your britches every time the pocket isn’t perfectly clean, then you have zero chance of achieving “Franchise QB” status.

Zach is most likely going to get the rest of the season to prove his worth.

If little changes, then he’s getting replaced in 2023.

[56mehl56]

8 minutes ago, Green Truth said:

No need to watch the all 22 to see the trash, stare down first read, never looks anywhere else, next thing you know running for his life.

If that is the case , then he's even better than anyone thinks.  DCs (yeah the people who breakdown film for a living) would have their players jump every 1st read, the fact every pass is not an int means he must be incredibly talented or extremely lucky. 

Again I challenge anyone to breakdown a game film of any qb * Brady, Mahomes,  Allen, Herbert) and find me just one where the qb never misses a wr who's perceived wide open. 

[RoadFan]

3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Ive heard by many, many experts that if a QB is not great from day 1, there is no hope of ever improving, like ever. So sounds like nothing can be done, so you are better off posing about 4,346 posts per day about how bad ZW sucks, will always suck, and is better off being a MILF hunter than a QB and how he is single handedly stopping us from winning a SB this year. It will get you a ton of those bad ass thumbs uppers

Wow.

I hope this isn’t true, but thinking about QBs over the years there is something to this…

[Jetsplayer21]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Zach holds the ball too long.

He needs to display much better field vision, seeing open receivers better, field awareness, throwing his receivers open if needed, and better decision making, ultimately in the aim of throwing the ball much sooner than he has been doing, or tucking it an running, which he doesn't do enough.

Until he can display those things, the issue will not change.

Exactly what everyone with a brain can see. This isn’t HS football anymore where you get 10 seconds to read and throw. Not only does he read slow, he loses focus when rush comes instead of standing in and throwing right before he knows he will likely take a hit. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Ive heard by many, many experts that if a QB is not great from day 1, there is no hope of ever improving, like ever. So sounds like nothing can be done, so you are better off posing about 4,346 posts per day about how bad ZW sucks, will always suck, and is better off being a MILF hunter than a QB and how he is single handedly stopping us from winning a SB this year. It will get you a ton of those bad ass thumbs uppers

I accept your surrender

[Green Truth]

20 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

If that is the case , then he's even better than anyone thinks.  DCs (yeah the people who breakdown film for a living) would have their players jump every 1st read, the fact every pass is not an int means he must be incredibly talented or extremely lucky. 

Again I challenge anyone to breakdown a game film of any qb * Brady, Mahomes,  Allen, Herbert) and find me just one where the qb never misses a wr who's perceived wide open. 

LOL. Breakdown game film, Brady came in when Mo Lewis blew up Bledsoe, on my Birthday nonetheless, and almost pulled that game out. The rest is history. I have seen trash after trash, Zach is one end of the year of being trash.

[56mehl56]

1 minute ago, Green Truth said:

LOL. Breakdown game film, Brady came in when Mo Lewis blew up Bledsoe, on my Birthday nonetheless, and almost pulled that game out. The rest is history. I have seen trash after trash, Zach is one end of the year of being trash.

So in other words you have no idea what your talking about. 

[Green Truth]

5 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

So in other words you have no idea what your talking about. 

You have no idea what you are watching. Zach is terrible at the moment, if the light switch does not come on soon, he will drag this team down. Bring in a vet QB next year to at least give them a chance. 52 players being dragged down by one. You must have been a huge Darnold homer when 99% of people knew it was over. I want him to be the guy, but at the moment he sux.

[56mehl56]

11 minutes ago, Green Truth said:

You have no idea what you are watching. Zach is terrible at the moment, if the light switch does not come on soon, he will drag this team down. Bring in a vet QB next year to at least give them a chance. 52 players being dragged down by one. You must have been a huge Darnold homer when 99% of people knew it was over. I want him to be the guy, but at the moment he sux.

I'm a fan of every player that lines up for the Jets on GameDay. Until a time comes when Zach is no longer the qb I'll be behind him 100%. Sure  I hope and  pray his game develops not because it will prove me right it's because it means the Jets will be that much better off. 

[Larz]

1 hour ago, All Gas, No Gase said:

I just watched the All 22. Here are several of my Zach observations:

1. I wonder if Zach has some concentration issues. There are sequences of plays were he is decisive and accurate even when facing pressure. He commands the offense and is hard to stop. We saw that in the 4th Q of the Pittsburgh game. It happened in the NE game as well. We are well aware of the stretches when he plays like crap and plays tentative, yet sometimes he looks elite. 
    
2. It been mentioned many times before, he never steps up in the pocket. There were plays if he stepped up instead of running sideways he could have found a receiver breaking open. Usually when he runs sideways he can’t throw even if he sees an open receiver because he can’t put anything on the ball, and he often can’t look downfield because he is too close to defensive players. If I were his coach, I would threaten to yank him from the game until he starts stepping up in the pocket. If he did, I believe his game would improve dramatically. 
    
3. This was noticeable in the Denver game as well, he is not willing to take the hit to get the ball out to an open receiver. On his interception he was trying to throw away, if he looked downfield instead of on Judon, he would have seen GW wide open for a chunk play. GW was visually upset at the end of the play.
4. Zach needs to stop going for the splash play. The worse two examples were his 3rd interception and his 4th down incompletion to Conklin in the end zone. That would have been an amazing play if he completed it; however, Zach could have easily scrambled for at least 5 yards to ensure the first down. 
    
5. And, he continues to throw off his back foot way too often. Sometimes it looks as if he’s playing for style points instead of making sure the pass is complete. 

He has adhd. My son is the poster child for adhd. One off the characteristics is hyper focus on things that interest him, other times the focus is so lacking I wonder if he’s even on planet earth. 

[doitny]

3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

While this is certainly possible, its also quite possible that he doesnt know or trust what he is seeing enough to step into the pocket and throw it. You think BB was just showing him standard easy reads? Or do you think BB was confusing the sh*t out of him? 

but hes been doing this all year not just against NE. just nobody here wanted to talk about it cause we were winning.

but that is his main problem. if he stays in the pocket he would make more plays. when he runs he takes his eyes off the field and when he looks back up he cant location the receivers. fix that and he will be better. just dont know how you get the kid to stay in the pocket.

[Integrity28]

3 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

While this is certainly possible, its also quite possible that he doesnt know or trust what he is seeing enough to step into the pocket and throw it. You think BB was just showing him standard easy reads? Or do you think BB was confusing the sh*t out of him? 

Zach likes to run right. BB was flushing him left, then Zach was still trying to run right.

[Integrity28]

3 hours ago, SuicidalSince98 said:

Someone really needs to chart the “running backwards” crap because in most instances it really is the only alternative to a sack 

I mean, he could run forward. 

Or, I dunno, sideways?

Or maybe just throw it. Is that allowed? Can he just throw it?

 

[southparkcpa]

6 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Zach likes to run right. BB was flushing him left, then Zach was still trying to run right.

BB ate Zach for lunch.     Zach has skills, has to learn how to play.  

[Bugg]

3 hours ago, AFJF said:

Can't answer this without knowing the criteria for "pressure".  Are they including the plays where Zach has a chance to step up in the pocket to make a throw but turns and runs anyway, leading to defenders breaking free and chasing him down?

 

Doesn't account for time either. How long should the OL be able to keep him clean? How much of that is failing to make a read and progress in under 3 seconds? NFL WRs are fast; at 2.6 seconds, these guys are 20+ yards into their pattern.