Convince me

[Integrity28]

34 minutes ago, southparkcpa said:

BB ate Zach for lunch.     Zach has skills, has to learn how to play.  

Zach has raw talent. He has almost no skill whatsoever. Skill being the application of knowledge, experience and fundamental learnings.

[GreenFish]

@derp has anyone convinced you yet?

 

[Jet25]

He needs to stand in the pocket and stop being a sissy. He's worse in the league when pressured and when throwing outside the pocket

[maury77]

3 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

BB ate Zach for lunch.     Zach has skills, has to learn how to play.  

Is he going to be able to? You have some guys (Darnold and Roethlisberger) who started playing QB later in life, so they were still learning the intricacies of the position. Zach has been playing QB probably since elementary school. If he hasn’t learned by now ……

[Sonny Werblin]

Does Rob Calabrese bear any responsibility for Wilson’s inability to improve upon his weaknesses? He’s had 2 years with him and the jets found it necessary to bring in outside help last season. Notably, Wilson improved with the outside help.

I still believe the jets need to convince Chad Pennington to be their QB coach. Chad knew how to read his keys and hit his checkdown. Plus he’s played QB in the NFL. I feel like Wilson is more likely to accept coaching from someone who’s been there and done that.

[K_O_Brien]

15 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Does Rob Calabrese bear any responsibility for Wilson’s inability to improve upon his weaknesses? He’s had 2 years with him and the jets found it necessary to bring in outside help last season. Notably, Wilson improved with the outside help.

I still believe the jets need to convince Chad Pennington to be their QB coach. Chad knew how to read his keys and hit his checkdown. Plus he’s played QB in the NFL. I feel like Wilson is more likely to accept coaching from someone who’s been there and done that.

At 32, Calabrese is really inexperienced in such a role. He's likely learning as he goes along, same as Saleh, LeFleur and Wilson. Even at the time, it felt like Greg Knapp's untimely passing (RIP) was an unfortunate loss, on every possible level. 

[68JET11]

I think some of the problem is this kid has not learned how to read a defense yet. I get there will be nuances that will be thrown out there by DC's that you might not have seen, but this is your 2nd year in the league and you still have not shown you can read a defense. Once he displays that he can be competent at that, only then will he become a better QB. You should be able to go through progressions on a regular basis. It's not always one and done with a read. I've been an advocate for OL strength, but even if you have the best OL, you can't teach a QB to be better if he doesn't get it. Zach needs to grow up and while he might be a student of the game, he's not displaying any growth from what he's learning. It will take a severe Josh Allen moment for him to take a turn for the better. 

[Cyberjet]

Franchise QBs know where they are going to throw the ball before the ball is snapped. It’s called recognition. No QB goes through progressions on every play - it’s too laborious, slow and exhausting requiring excellent pass protection.

They look out at the defense pre snap and know immediately if the first read will be open - they will give the 1st read a cursory look  then immediately go to the read they think will have the highest percentage of completion. If that’s not available they scramble, throw a check down pass if available, throw it away or get sacked. All done in 3 seconds. 
 

Wilson needs to change his mindset. And I think he will

[TommyT]

Unable to convince you. I say they should have traded for Minchew.

[doitny]

13 minutes ago, K_O_Brien said:

At 32, Calabrese is really inexperienced in such a role. He's likely learning as he goes along, same as Saleh, LeFleur and Wilson. Even at the time, it felt like Greg Knapp's untimely passing (RIP) was an unfortunate loss, on every possible level. 

you might have a point but then i remembered that Beck was here last year. he had to make Zach go back to learning football 101. he should have been able to take the next step this year but he is not.

i think coaches are scapegoats of bad players. last year we didnt play well with less talent and Saleh was bad. now we are winning with better players and people are warming up to him. Belichick was a sh*tty HC until Brady came along. Peyton wont take a team without a QB. all good/great HCs and OCs have a great QB attached to them. 

IMO the the only guy who could do it without a top QB and is the greatest HC is Bill Parcells. be even he knew he needed a serviceable QB and brought in Vinny T. 

i dont think we can blame any coach cause as bad as Zach has been he does show flashes like in the 4th qt in Pitt. so did he forget how to do that? 

as for Calabrese he was a college QB and College QB coach. what Zach is doing wrong by not stepping into the pocket is QB 101. a lot of his mistakes are. i dont think you need 5-10 years of NFL QB coaching experience to tell the kid to do that. 

and LaFluer has been in football for 14 years ( 5coll, 9 nfl) and all of that was as QB coach, OC, Off ass, and 4 years as passing game cord on those really good SF teams. if he could design passing play that have made Jimmy G one of the most highest comp % QBs in the league he cant do it for Zach?

[JustInFudge]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

you might have a point but then i remembered that Beck was here last year. he had to make Zach go back to learning football 101. he should have been able to take the next step this year but he is not.

i think coaches are scapegoats of bad players. last year we didnt play well with less talent and Saleh was bad. now we are winning with better players and people are warming up to him. Belichick was a sh*tty HC until Brady came along. Peyton wont take a team without a QB. all good/great HCs and OCs have a great QB attached to them. 

IMO the the only guy who could do it without a top QB and is the greatest HC is Bill Parcells. be even he knew he needed a serviceable QB and brought in Vinny T. 

i dont think we can blame any coach cause as bad as Zach has been he does show flashes like in the 4th qt in Pitt. so did he forget how to do that? 

as for Calabrese he was a college QB and College QB coach. what Zach is doing wrong by not stepping into the pocket is QB 101. a lot of his mistakes are. i dont think you need 5-10 years of NFL QB coaching experience to tell the kid to do that. 

and LaFluer has been in football for 14 years ( 5coll, 9 nfl) and all of that was as QB coach, OC, Off ass, and 4 years as passing game cord on those really good SF teams. if he could design passing play that have made Jimmy G one of the most highest comp % QBs in the league he cant do it for Zach?

The kid has been groomed since middle school to play QB.  He's been going to QB schools and camps.  He's had personal coaches, he's had high school coaches, he's had college coaches and he has NFL coaches.  Him and his family have probably spent 100's of thousands of dollars, to get him the very best coaching money can buy.  Who knows how many hours he's put in practicing, watching film, etc. and he still, doesnt understand the very basic fundamentals of being a QB.  The only excuse for Zach Wilson to be this bad, is he just doesnt give a **** and think he's better he is and can just get away with everything because yo!, peep my arm.  Anyone who has played sports knows this kid, crazy raw talent, total sh*t for brains who cant play fundamental ball.  Probably great in a pick up, back yard game, but put him in a system and ask to execute and he cant.  It's why so many unathletic goobers ie; Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, have been all time greats.  They understand the position. 

I dont see how different coaches does anything to change Zach Wilson.  He is, who he is.

 

 

[Sonny Werblin]

16 hours ago, derp said:

Zach Wilson's struggles this season boil down to anything other than this.

When Clean:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

When Pressured:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT (Cimini's article today has it at 6/41 with one of the picks coming clean which would change the above numbers too, but we'll leave the better stats in for now)

Bonus: tell me how it gets fixed.

Note: before anyone says all quarterbacks struggle against pressure, know those are the worst numbers against pressure in the league (and by a pretty wide margin).

So... you're saying if we put Zach behind a great O line with a strong running game, he'll be great? ?

[Sonny Werblin]

15 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The kid has been groomed since middle school to play QB.  He's been going to QB schools and camps.  He's had personal coaches, he's had high school coaches, he's had college coaches and he has NFL coaches.  Him and his family have probably spent 100's of thousands of dollars, to get him the very best coaching money can buy.  Who knows how many hours he's put in practicing, watching film, etc. and he still, doesnt understand the very basic fundamentals of being a QB.  The only excuse for Zach Wilson to be this bad, is he just doesnt give a **** and think he's better he is and can just get away with everything because yo!, peep my arm.  Anyone who has played sports knows this kid, crazy raw talent, total sh*t for brains who cant play fundamental ball.  Probably great in a pick up, back yard game, but put him in a system and ask to execute and he cant.  It's why so many unathletic goobers ie; Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, have been all time greats.  They understand the position. 

I dont see how different coaches does anything to change Zach Wilson.  He is, who he is.

 

 

That's only half right. He also thinks ""I've been successful playing QB this way before the NFL".  Unless and until he realizes he can not be successful in the NFL unless he steps forward in the pocket rather than running all over God's green earth 15 to 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage, he will not be successful. I would add that putting him behind a great O line would also help. It is a lot easier to play QB when you have a great O line.

[ChuckkieB]

13 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The kid has been groomed since middle school to play QB.  He's been going to QB schools and camps.  He's had personal coaches, he's had high school coaches, he's had college coaches and he has NFL coaches.  Him and his family have probably spent 100's of thousands of dollars, to get him the very best coaching money can buy.  Who knows how many hours he's put in practicing, watching film, etc. and he still, doesnt understand the very basic fundamentals of being a QB.  The only excuse for Zach Wilson to be this bad, is he just doesnt give a **** and think he's better he is and can just get away with everything because yo!, peep my arm.  Anyone who has played sports knows this kid, crazy raw talent, total sh*t for brains who cant play fundamental ball.  Probably great in a pick up, back yard game, but put him in a system and ask to execute and he cant.  It's why so many unathletic goobers ie; Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, have been all time greats.  They understand the position. 

I dont see how different coaches does anything to change Zach Wilson.  He is, who he is.

 

 

I think you nailed it.  All the coaching in the world isn't going to change who Wilson is.  Suppressing who he is in previous weeks by running a heavy run / quick one read and throw offense only works when the running game and defense are stout.  When Zack has to elevate the team and carry them to victory on his own, he just isn't capable of sustaining a high level of play. Too many fundamental mistakes and he seems to have regressed from year 1, and at best, is the same. I know there are those who will say that he's only played 20 NFL games, but, most young QB's come out of college now and hit the ground running in their first season and fine tune their game fairly quickly after that to achieve that higher level of excellence. The days of waiting 3-4 years to develop a QB in real time are over.  The modern NFL QB is either good right away or they're not. I think we all know what Wilson is.  I hope he's the outlier but I won't hold my breath.  

[derp]

11 minutes ago, Sonny Werblin said:

So... you're saying if we put Zach behind a great O line with a strong running game, he'll be great? ?

Is there a line that can prevent him from ever being pressured?

[derp]

11 hours ago, GreenFish said:

@derp has anyone convinced you yet?

 

I’m not genuinely sure anyone’s tried. I’ve seen some trying to explain the pressure issue. Definitely some good thoughts in here. That some members of both the Wilson can’t do wrong and Wilson can’t do right contingents were bothered by the OP was very entertaining for me though.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

13 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Zach likes to run right. BB was flushing him left, then Zach was still trying to run right.

I dont disagree. My point was that it may be more complex than him just being a pussy and standing and taking a hit while throwing it. It could be that, but it could also be that he is not trusting what he is seeing, and running. 

[Stark]

17 hours ago, JiFapono said:

The easy answer would be to put him under center more often, IMO open up the playbooks, keep the defense guessing, doesnt allow them to just pin their ears all game but, he's terrible from under center because his drop backs are horrendous and he's not really effective in play action, so I'm not sure that fixes it.  Static plays from shutgun/pistol but they try that and he's still bad.  He's a hard kid to call plays for because he very rarely gives the play a chance.

So, if I were Lil Mikey, I'd dial up the RPO game big time.  He actually excels when they do run RPO they just rarely run it.  I'd pretty much start catering the entire offense to the RPO game so that you eliminate his passion for fading/bailing the pocket, this will force him to stay in there and get at least his first read while he decides to hand off or throw.  That said, they'd have to be comfortable with him taking off a bit or they'll never bite on this option.  It's really the only way I think you can do something about this right now.

The bigger issue, separate topic, is his overall coaching and development, or lack there of because all of this comes down his lack of fundamentals but that's like trying to fix your swing on the 8th hole, so the only thing I can even come up with is a heavy RPO game.

truth... nothing you can do at that point. just play out the round, drink a few more beers and accept it.

 

 

[Stark]

13 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

I mean, he could run forward. 

Or, I dunno, sideways?

Or maybe just throw it. Is that allowed? Can he just throw it?

 

you know how many times, if Zach was more willing, he could run for say 3-6 yd gains instead of backwards for those awful loss/throw away INTS.

 

plenty of times there are yds he could easily pick up, safely but he doesn't. 

[Sonny Werblin]

2 hours ago, K_O_Brien said:

At 32, Calabrese is really inexperienced in such a role. He's likely learning as he goes along, same as Saleh, LeFleur and Wilson. Even at the time, it felt like Greg Knapp's untimely passing (RIP) was an unfortunate loss, on every possible level. 

Calabrese's experience "playing" QB is starting as a true freshman at UCF. But after starting the first two games in 2009 as a sophomore, he was benched for Brett Hodges and spent the remainder of the season as a reserve quarterback. He suffered a knee injury as a junior in a game against Marshall and sat out his senior season.  As a redshirt senior, he played WR and QB (both sparingly) and had only 4 pass attempts the entire season. His cumulative performance at QB at UCF looks like 20 games where he started or came in to play QB (9 in his freshman season) and he was 117/254   46.1%    1276 yds   5.0 Y/A   12 TDs    7 Ints 

He immediately went into coaching after completing his college career. Here is his coaching resume.

QB Coach - Oviedo HS (2013)

Graduate Assistant - UCF (2014–2015)

RB Coach - Wagner (2016)

OC and QB Coach - Wagner (2017–2018)

Offensive Quality Control - Denver Broncos (2019–2020)

QB Coach New York Jets (2021–present)
 

Is it crazy for me to be shaken to my core that the brain trust for the Jets decided to entrust this guy with developing the #2 pick into an NFL quality QB when it was widely known that Wilson was a raw talent who needed development?

 

[Sonny Werblin]

15 minutes ago, derp said:

Is there a line that can prevent him from ever being pressured?

There is certainly one that can keep the pressures to a minimum.

[Sonny Werblin]

19 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

I think you nailed it.  All the coaching in the world isn't going to change who Wilson is.  Suppressing who he is in previous weeks by running a heavy run / quick one read and throw offense only works when the running game and defense are stout.  When Zack has to elevate the team and carry them to victory on his own, he just isn't capable of sustaining a high level of play. Too many fundamental mistakes and he seems to have regressed from year 1, and at best, is the same. I know there are those who will say that he's only played 20 NFL games, but, most young QB's come out of college now and hit the ground running in their first season and fine tune their game fairly quickly after that to achieve that higher level of excellence. The days of waiting 3-4 years to develop a QB in real time are over.  The modern NFL QB is either good right away or they're not. I think we all know what Wilson is.  I hope he's the outlier but I won't hold my breath.  

And what do we know of the coaching he's been receiving. Is it the best coaching money can buy? Because it should be. Sadly, it's not. instead it is Rob Calabrese who never played in the NFL and has 254 pass attempts in 20 games at UCF.

[heymangold]

can you provide numbers on QBs that are successful when pressured?

[Stark]

12 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Zach has raw talent. He has almost no skill whatsoever. Skill being the application of knowledge, experience and fundamental learnings.

very well stated. can make almost any throw, quick and elusive, just can't put it all together. Could he? I don't know. 

I really hope it clicks and he ends up being the guy, mostly just because I am sick of hunting QB's - but to me - I don't see a long term solution. 

[derp]

Just now, Sonny Werblin said:

There is certainly one that can keep the pressures to a minimum.

So then they’ve invested a lot in the offensive line, the defense is worse, the pass catching options are worse, they’re still going to have to deal with poor decision making when the pressure inevitably does come, and there exists the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) that the poor decision making continues to crop up when teams bring more guys than can be blocked.

I think the line would be a band aid that could help mitigate the underlying issue, but I think a sustainable solution for poor play under pressure involves finding hot receivers, etc - decision making stuff.

[Maxman]

17 hours ago, Vader said:

1. step up in pocket.

2. set feet when throws.

 

17 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Quicker throws/shorter routes, staying in shotgun, teach your wr's that the play isn't dead when he's out of the pocket and to find the open spaces. pray.

These are the two biggest changes that will produce the biggest impact.

Three step drop and fire.  Sure then the defense will adjust and press more but get off to a fast start.  Zach is one of five every week.  I think they should complete three passes for 9 yards and punt on the first drive. Just to get this kids head on right.

[WILLY]

53 minutes ago, JiFapono said:

The kid has been groomed since middle school to play QB.  He's been going to QB schools and camps.  He's had personal coaches, he's had high school coaches, he's had college coaches and he has NFL coaches.  Him and his family have probably spent 100's of thousands of dollars, to get him the very best coaching money can buy.  Who knows how many hours he's put in practicing, watching film, etc. and he still, doesnt understand the very basic fundamentals of being a QB.  The only excuse for Zach Wilson to be this bad, is he just doesnt give a **** and think he's better he is and can just get away with everything because yo!, peep my arm.  Anyone who has played sports knows this kid, crazy raw talent, total sh*t for brains who cant play fundamental ball.  Probably great in a pick up, back yard game, but put him in a system and ask to execute and he cant.  It's why so many unathletic goobers ie; Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, have been all time greats.  They understand the position. 

I dont see how different coaches does anything to change Zach Wilson.  He is, who he is.

 

 

Sadly, this rings true. Unless a miracle occurs over the next two months, the Jets need to look for another QB.

[Sonny Werblin]

1 minute ago, derp said:

So then they’ve invested a lot in the offensive line, the defense is worse, the pass catching options are worse, they’re still going to have to deal with poor decision making when the pressure inevitably does come, and there exists the possibility (perhaps even likelihood) that the poor decision making continues to crop up when teams bring more guys than can be blocked.

I think the line would be a band aid that could help mitigate the underlying issue, but I think a sustainable solution for poor play under pressure involves finding hot receivers, etc - decision making stuff.

You'd better dam well invest a lot in the O line. It's what great teams do! With 5 players expected to start every Offensive snap it is the most important position group on the field. If the O line was not decimated by injuries and Hall was not lost for the season, you'd have Fant, Tomlinson, McGovern, AVT and Becton. I guarantee that O line and Hall would lead to the Jets having a top run game and strong pass blocking resulting in less pressures on the QB. And that didn't even cost a future draft pick. It just bad injury luck. What would the D look like if QW, Sauce and Mosely were lost for the season?   

[PepPep]

17 hours ago, Vader said:

1. step up in pocket.

2. set feet when throws.

This is what leads to simple throws or throws he can make in his sleep on the practice field ending up INTs. 

17 hours ago, Beerfish said:

#1  He has to run more.  You MUST make teams pay for their pressure packages and the successful guys, mahommes, allen, lamar, hurts etc all run when they have to and at times when they do not have to.  He got hurt on a fluke play after a  run so now he and the team are run shy.  huge mistake.

Yup. Run SELECTIVELY but DECISIVELY. This will not only put in better down and distance but free up the dump off options when he is on the run because he will start to suck in the LB/S as soon as he rolls out due to the threat of the run. AND LEARN TO SLIDE! 

17 hours ago, Warfish said:

Zach holds the ball too long.

He needs to display much better field vision, seeing open receivers better, field awareness, throwing his receivers open if needed, and better decision making, ultimately in the aim of throwing the ball much sooner than he has been doing, or tucking it an running, which he doesn't do enough.

Until he can display those things, the issue will not change.

Well, there's a lot here. But yes, the decision making and awareness has definitely been spotty and his attempts to hold onto the ball to make a big play have hurt more than they have helped. 

17 hours ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Quicker throws/shorter routes, staying in shotgun, teach your wr's that the play isn't dead when he's out of the pocket and to find the open spaces. pray.

This is where coaching comes into play. You have to see what is happening with Zach and put him in a position where you play to his strengths (of which there are many) and things are easy for him to execute. He has a quick release. He is elusive. Get the TEs involved. How about some crossing routes? Rub plays for our most explosive player after the catch (G.Wilson)? Slants and Digs...Boring, short stuff but we've seen some of that be very successful. I  think we need to see more. 

IN ESSENCE ALL OF THE ABOVE. 

[GreenFish]

30 minutes ago, Stark said:

you know how many times, if Zach was more willing, he could run for say 3-6 yd gains instead of backwards for those awful loss/throw away INTS.

 

plenty of times there are yds he could easily pick up, safely but he doesn't. 

I made a similar point earlier. This alone would make him a close to average QB by not just removing those awful plays but 3-6 yard runs are good plays.

Hard to believe he cant make that adjustment. That seems like a coachable trait as long as the player takes to coaching.

[Dunnie]

You’d think this is the number one thing they’d be drilling into him during the week. Or maybe they are and he just won’t do it.

... or maybe they are not and as Mike L is so fond of saying ... They are 'Letting Zach be Zach'

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[doitny]

1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

That's only half right. He also thinks ""I've been successful playing QB this way before the NFL".  Unless and until he realizes he can not be successful in the NFL unless he steps forward in the pocket rather than running all over God's green earth 15 to 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage, he will not be successful. I would add that putting him behind a great O line would also help. It is a lot easier to play QB when you have a great O line.

yeah but the resources you would use to get that great OL will take them away from something else that you will need. thats why FQBs can get away without that and instead put those resources in the defense or WR. and no matter how good your OL is they will never be able to stop pressure. free runners, CB blitzs, there is always a way to get to the QB

[Sonny Werblin]

2 minutes ago, doitny said:

yeah but the resources you would use to get that great OL will take them away from something else that you will need. thats why FQBs can get away without that and instead put those resources in the defense or WR. and no matter how good your OL is they will never be able to stop pressure. free runners, CB blitzs, there is always a way to get to the QB

The O line already exists. They're just injured. Fant, Tomlinson, McGovern, AVT, Becton. What would the D look like if they lost QW, Sauce and Mosely for the season?

And great teams continue to invest first, second and third round picks on O lineman -  45% of your starting Offense is made up of O linemen.

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

That's only half right. He also thinks ""I've been successful playing QB this way before the NFL".  Unless and until he realizes he can not be successful in the NFL unless he steps forward in the pocket rather than running all over God's green earth 15 to 20 yards behind the line of scrimmage, he will not be successful. I would add that putting him behind a great O line would also help. It is a lot easier to play QB when you have a great O line.

Well, that mentally was included in "doesnt give a ****" analysis.  I heard you but I can do this but he cant and unfortunately, it's habit.

Idk even know if a great OL does anything significant.  He creates pressure and bails without pressure.  His pocket manipulation is atrocious.  And he's terrible if he holds the ball too long.  

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, ChuckkieB said:

I think you nailed it.  All the coaching in the world isn't going to change who Wilson is.  Suppressing who he is in previous weeks by running a heavy run / quick one read and throw offense only works when the running game and defense are stout.  When Zack has to elevate the team and carry them to victory on his own, he just isn't capable of sustaining a high level of play. Too many fundamental mistakes and he seems to have regressed from year 1, and at best, is the same. I know there are those who will say that he's only played 20 NFL games, but, most young QB's come out of college now and hit the ground running in their first season and fine tune their game fairly quickly after that to achieve that higher level of excellence. The days of waiting 3-4 years to develop a QB in real time are over.  The modern NFL QB is either good right away or they're not. I think we all know what Wilson is.  I hope he's the outlier but I won't hold my breath.  

I just not sure these things are fixable.  He's just this type of player.  Maybe more experience and a better fit to eliminate his weakness and focus on his strengths (heavy RPO) will help but I just think this is who he is.  He'll never been a good fundamental pocket passer and unfortunately his off script stuff isnt very good.