Convince me

[Ron Rico]

4 hours ago, Cyberjet said:

Franchise QBs know where they are going to throw the ball before the ball is snapped. It’s called recognition. No QB goes through progressions on every play - it’s too laborious, slow and exhausting requiring excellent pass protection.

They look out at the defense pre snap and know immediately if the first read will be open - they will give the 1st read a cursory look  then immediately go to the read they think will have the highest percentage of completion. If that’s not available they scramble, throw a check down pass if available, throw it away or get sacked. All done in 3 seconds. 
 

Wilson needs to change his mindset. And I think he will

The major knock on Sanchez was he was quick to dump it off on a check down receiver, but he was good at it. Zach can't see the field, can't see his open receivers, but doesn't even hit the check down, he just launches the ball off into the deep blue yonder. If he does go to the check down, the ball sails over his head. 

[derp]

1 hour ago, Sonny Werblin said:

You'd better dam well invest a lot in the O line. It's what great teams do! With 5 players expected to start every Offensive snap it is the most important position group on the field. If the O line was not decimated by injuries and Hall was not lost for the season, you'd have Fant, Tomlinson, McGovern, AVT and Becton. I guarantee that O line and Hall would lead to the Jets having a top run game and strong pass blocking resulting in less pressures on the QB. And that didn't even cost a future draft pick. It just bad injury luck. What would the D look like if QW, Sauce and Mosely were lost for the season?   

The offensive line is one of those position groups, kind of like the secondary, where having a weak link hurts you more than having an elite player helps you.

Recent Super Bowl teams have had good offensive lines with competent players, but I wouldn't argue that they invested heavily in the offensive line. There's a degree of nuance there that I think you're ignoring.

I get the sense that you think the offensive line is important and just want to ramble about it, which is fine, but you're not really addressing the idea that Wilson will still get pressured even if the line is better.

I guarantee you that the line you described and Hall would make the Jets better, and Wilson would still make bad plays when pressured. Like I said, it's a band aid. Doesn't solve the underlying problem.

[Larz]

3 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Calabrese's experience "playing" QB is starting as a true freshman at UCF. But after starting the first two games in 2009 as a sophomore, he was benched for Brett Hodges and spent the remainder of the season as a reserve quarterback. He suffered a knee injury as a junior in a game against Marshall and sat out his senior season.  As a redshirt senior, he played WR and QB (both sparingly) and had only 4 pass attempts the entire season. His cumulative performance at QB at UCF looks like 20 games where he started or came in to play QB (9 in his freshman season) and he was 117/254   46.1%    1276 yds   5.0 Y/A   12 TDs    7 Ints 

He immediately went into coaching after completing his college career. Here is his coaching resume.

QB Coach - Oviedo HS (2013)

Graduate Assistant - UCF (2014–2015)

RB Coach - Wagner (2016)

OC and QB Coach - Wagner (2017–2018)

Offensive Quality Control - Denver Broncos (2019–2020)

QB Coach New York Jets (2021–present)
 

Is it crazy for me to be shaken to my core that the brain trust for the Jets decided to entrust this guy with developing the #2 pick into an NFL quality QB when it was widely known that Wilson was a raw talent who needed development?

 

Calabrese is very well thought of and is probably 2 years from getting OC interviews 

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

15 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

Zach has raw talent. He has almost no skill whatsoever. Skill being the application of knowledge, experience and fundamental learnings.

This is essentially the definition of a project.

A high-upside one but still, a project.

[Jetsfan80]

25 minutes ago, JoeNamathsFurCoat said:

This is essentially the definition of a project.

A high-upside one but still, a project.

Totally a worthwhile usage of a # 2 overall pick and smart to make him the day 1 unquestioned starter.  

Quinnen Williams deserves better than Zach. 

[Sonny Werblin]

30 minutes ago, Larz said:

Calabrese is very well thought of and is probably 2 years from getting OC interviews 

Based on his excellent work with Zach no doubt ?

[SAM SAM HE'S OUR MAN]

21 hours ago, derp said:

Zach Wilson's struggles this season boil down to anything other than this.

When Clean:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

When Pressured:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT (Cimini's article today has it at 6/41 with one of the picks coming clean which would change the above numbers too, but we'll leave the better stats in for now)

Bonus: tell me how it gets fixed.

Note: before anyone says all quarterbacks struggle against pressure, know those are the worst numbers against pressure in the league (and by a pretty wide margin).

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

Hilarious yet accurate description of what it's like watching Zach Wilson. 

 

[VJphillyfan]

22 hours ago, derp said:

Zach Wilson's struggles this season boil down to anything other than this.

When Clean:

69/95 (72.6%), 907 yards (9.5 YPA), 2 TD, 0 INT 

When Pressured:

9/47 (19.1%), 141 yards (3.0 YPA), 1 TD, 5 INT (Cimini's article today has it at 6/41 with one of the picks coming clean which would change the above numbers too, but we'll leave the better stats in for now)

Bonus: tell me how it gets fixed.

Note: before anyone says all quarterbacks struggle against pressure, know those are the worst numbers against pressure in the league (and by a pretty wide margin).

I don’t think there’s a qb in the nfl who is better under pressure than Zach Wilson

[Biggs]

Deep drop plant and chuck it based on what you see pre snap.   Your an NFL QB.  Stop pretending you're reading instructions on how to put together Crushers new barbecue.

 

[jNYC1]

The biggest concern is there has been no change in how awful Zach has been under pressure over the last 5 games.

Consistently (and historically) bad is what is leading fans to be really concerned about his prospects going forward.

[shawn306]

22 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Well, when he's pressured he spins like a top and runs away from the line of scrimmage with his back to the play.  I'd say fixing this problem will go a long way toward improving his "under pressure" performance. This isn't rocket science, the young man needs to gird his loins and step up in the pocket maintaining his vision of the play in front of him. 

yup. Last week was a major step backwards. Be decisive. Don't go spinning one way, the other way and basically giving up half the field. Just making it alot easier for defenders to defend.

[kevinc855]

They talk about his pressure numbers here. Its concerning

(1) Is Zach Wilson A Bust? | Tiki & Tierney [Show Open] - YouTube

 

[SuicidalSince98]

12 minutes ago, jNYC1 said:

The biggest concern is there has been no change in how awful Zach has been under pressure over the last 5 games.

Consistently (and historically) bad is what is leading fans to be really concerned about his prospects going forward.

You are just looking at PFF stats, he is escaping sure sacks and throwing it away. That is different than folding under pressure like Tom Brady has done his entire career. I don’t think you quite comprehend how atrocious our pass protection is. 

[DjHoldyHold]

Honestly I think he needs to run more, which is never something I thought I would say about a QB. There have been many times where he continues to dodge dip dive duck and dodge laterally or backwards instead of moving forward. This would put more pressure on the DBs and LBs. He also needs to tuck and run and pickup 3 yards instead of holding out for a deep shot and finding McCourty wide open. 

[Stark]

 

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, Zachtomims47 said:

Hilarious yet accurate description of what it's like watching Zach Wilson. 

 

Lol - yes.

He can make the best throw you’ve ever seen and then the worst in the same drive 

[Saul Goodman]

5 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Calabrese's experience "playing" QB is starting as a true freshman at UCF. But after starting the first two games in 2009 as a sophomore, he was benched for Brett Hodges and spent the remainder of the season as a reserve quarterback. He suffered a knee injury as a junior in a game against Marshall and sat out his senior season.  As a redshirt senior, he played WR and QB (both sparingly) and had only 4 pass attempts the entire season. His cumulative performance at QB at UCF looks like 20 games where he started or came in to play QB (9 in his freshman season) and he was 117/254   46.1%    1276 yds   5.0 Y/A   12 TDs    7 Ints 

He immediately went into coaching after completing his college career. Here is his coaching resume.

QB Coach - Oviedo HS (2013)

Graduate Assistant - UCF (2014–2015)

RB Coach - Wagner (2016)

OC and QB Coach - Wagner (2017–2018)

Offensive Quality Control - Denver Broncos (2019–2020)

QB Coach New York Jets (2021–present)
 

Is it crazy for me to be shaken to my core that the brain trust for the Jets decided to entrust this guy with developing the #2 pick into an NFL quality QB when it was widely known that Wilson was a raw talent who needed development?

 

I have never heard of anyone judging a coach’s worthiness based on their college playing performance. And I can’t think of many NFL coaches that were excellent football players.

We are really grasping at straws here to blame anyone but the player himself…

[Sonny Werblin]

15 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

I have never heard of anyone judging a coach’s worthiness based on their college playing performance. And I can’t think of many NFL coaches that were excellent football players.

We are really grasping at straws here to blame anyone but the player himself…

Is a person better at something after they've done it for 15 years? Are they better at explaining something after they've actually done it themselves?  I expect the answer for 99% of the population is a resounding yes. 

My point is that he has very little actual college playing experience. And No NFL playing experience to draw from. And this is the guy we have teaching our QB how to read NFL D's and play QB in the NFL. By comparison, Patrick Mahomes had Mike Kafka- a 4th round pick who had 6 years of NFL experience as a back-up and practice squad player. Josh Allen had David Culley who didn't play QB in the pros but was a QB at Vanderbilt and, more importantly, had 39 years of total coaching experience and 23 years of NFL coaching experience assigned to develop Allen.

Experience matters. When I was younger, I didn't think so because I felt it diminished me since I did not have it. Now that I have lots of experience, I can safely say that younger me was dead ass wrong. 

[Larz]

7 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Based on his excellent work with Zach no doubt ?

No coordinating the offense at the senior bowl 

[FootballLove]

LeFleur clearly needs to keep a WR about 20 yards deep behind the LOS for those times when Zack is running around with his back to the action. Give him a wide open target. Elijah Moore?

[Sperm Edwards]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:57 PM, JiFapono said:

The bigger issue, separate topic, is his overall coaching and development, or lack there of because all of this comes down his lack of fundamentals but that's like trying to fix your swing on the 8th hole, so the only thing I can even come up with is a heavy RPO game.

I enjoyed this analogy immensely, except that it also upset me. 

[doitny]

6 hours ago, Sonny Werblin said:

Is a person better at something after they've done it for 15 years? Are they better at explaining something after they've actually done it themselves?  I expect the answer for 99% of the population is a resounding yes. 

My point is that he has very little actual college playing experience. And No NFL playing experience to draw from. And this is the guy we have teaching our QB how to read NFL D's and play QB in the NFL. By comparison, Patrick Mahomes had Mike Kafka- a 4th round pick who had 6 years of NFL experience as a back-up and practice squad player. Josh Allen had David Culley who didn't play QB in the pros but was a QB at Vanderbilt and, more importantly, had 39 years of total coaching experience and 23 years of NFL coaching experience assigned to develop Allen.

Experience matters. When I was younger, I didn't think so because I felt it diminished me since I did not have it. Now that I have lots of experience, I can safely say that younger me was dead ass wrong. 

what about John Beck? Zach worked with him at least the last 2 summers that i know of maybe even more when he was at BYU. he was on the Jets the 2nd half of the season last year. and when he was here Zach took a step backwards and had to learn to throw a short pass again. which is disturbing if you think about it.

when you were 22 and someone taught you something did you forget it so many times that you had to be told over and over again for years? and like i said he has been working with Beck for years so alot of what they're telling him now has already been told to him many times over the years.

and Matt Cavanaugh was here last year too. and he had a long NFL career and has been a long time coach. so Zach has had alot of experienced guys with him. the kid just isn't getting it

[Dunnie]

5 OL + 4 TE formation.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Or, just start Mike White.

Or two tight ends, 2 wideouts and Mike White as a Personal Protector for the QB. Plugging the 3-5 holes the OL allows, getting pummeled every play allowing Zach's golden arm to complete 75% of its attempts from a clean pocket.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

19 hours ago, Larz said:

Calabrese is very well thought of and is probably 2 years from getting OC interviews 

Link?

[fullblast]

The problem is that Zach is creating his own pressure (we used to say the same thing about another recent highly drafted QB).

The vast majority plays being measured in those "when pressured" metrics are happening outside the pocket, on plays where he never needed to leave it in the first place.

He has shown that he can win from the pocket, he just needs to learn how to navigate it instead of bailing out.

Listen to this from the 2 minute mark on. Summarizes where I think Zach needs to improve the most.

 

[VJphillyfan]

20 hours ago, kevinc855 said:

They talk about his pressure numbers here. Its concerning

(1) Is Zach Wilson A Bust? | Tiki & Tierney [Show Open] - YouTube

 

What a couple idiots.  Calling Zach Wilson a bust. He’s 4-1 as a starter in his second year

[Jetluv58]

On 11/2/2022 at 5:00 PM, Vader said:

They must be. It's QBing 101. Darnold had the same problem.

Personally think ZW is scared and playing scared. Fight or flight. He flees. He's not always playing with his whole brain, only his reptilian brain.

He simply lacks the courage and fearlessness to step up into the pocket far too much. 

What pocket? 

[Ron Rico]

1 minute ago, Jetluv58 said:

What pocket? 

I hope Zach doesn't throw his offensive line under the bus the way his fans, do. That will get very ugly.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, Jetluv58 said:

What pocket? 

lol.  So your argument is the OL never gives him a pocket to step into, hence why he's never done it?

OK buddy.  Somehow our OL went from competent to the worst of all-time for the Zach defenders, seemingly overnight.

[slimjasi]

4 hours ago, fullblast said:

The problem is that Zach is creating his own pressure (we used to say the same thing about another recent highly drafted QB).

The vast majority plays being measured in those "when pressured" metrics are happening outside the pocket, on plays where he never needed to leave it in the first place.

He has shown that he can win from the pocket, he just needs to learn how to navigate it instead of bailing out.

Listen to this from the 2 minute mark on. Summarizes where I think Zach needs to improve the most.

 

I agree with whomever suggested using a shock collar to punish Wilson for bailing on the pocket early or for running backwards. 

[Vader]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol.  So your argument is the OL never gives him a pocket to step into, hence why he's never done it?

OK buddy.  Somehow our OL went from competent to the worst of all-time for the Zach defenders, seemingly overnight.

I mean sometimes there is no pocket per se, or it disintegrated. He STILL could evade rushers and step up into "the pocket" if we want to use "an air quote pocket." It's semantics for "he creates his own suckage."

[Biggs]

On 11/3/2022 at 12:11 PM, Coquito said:

The major knock on Sanchez was he was quick to dump it off on a check down receiver, but he was good at it. Zach can't see the field, can't see his open receivers, but doesn't even hit the check down, he just launches the ball off into the deep blue yonder. If he does go to the check down, the ball sails over his head. 

Sanchez played with one of the top 3 offensive lines in Jets history, possibly the best overall line we ever had.  He was asked to do almost nothing and he was still a turnover machine.   The Jets D let up an average of 14.75 per game in his rookie year.  

The best part of Sanchez's game was when we actually needed him to launch the ball down the field.  Braylon Edwards was almost always in single coverage because of the run game.  

Sanchez short game wasn't good at all.  

[Vader]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

Sanchez played with one of the top 3 offensive lines in Jets history, possibly the best overall line we ever had.  He was asked to do almost nothing and he was still a turnover machine.   The Jets D let up an average of 14.75 per game in his rookie year.  

The best part of Sanchez's game was when we actually needed him to launch the ball down the field.  Braylon Edwards was almost always in single coverage because of the run game.  

Sanchez short game wasn't good at all.  

he had a wicked slant actually

[Ron Rico]

34 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Sanchez played with one of the top 3 offensive lines in Jets history, possibly the best overall line we ever had.  He was asked to do almost nothing and he was still a turnover machine.   The Jets D let up an average of 14.75 per game in his rookie year.  

The best part of Sanchez's game was when we actually needed him to launch the ball down the field.  Braylon Edwards was almost always in single coverage because of the run game.  

Sanchez short game wasn't good at all.  

I think I'm confused with Chad Pennington. I'll stop, now.